I still firmly believe that Talon > Harmonic in most matchups, but the deck could honestly run well with either.
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I still firmly believe that Talon > Harmonic in most matchups, but the deck could honestly run well with either.
Talon Sliver vs Goblins is a very strong option and is similar to Engineered Plague in that it is virtual card advantage. By this, I mean that it will create card advantage turn after turn, while cards like Pyroclasm and Tivadar's Crusade provide a 1-shot card advantage effect. With Talon Sliver, you can block Goblins over and over and kill them off, decreasing their resources. With Tivadar's Crusade, you blow up all their Goblins once... but cards like Ringleader can allow them to recover. I realize the deck has Stifle, but Talon Sliver is much better vs Goblins than Crusade in my opinion. It adds to the aggro count and it can also be proactive.
I would personally run Talon Sliver maindeck. I realize that untargetable buffed Slivers may be able to handle Goblins but Goblins will be making up a large portion of GP Columbus. The extra tech vs them doesn't hurt. Harmonic Sliver is also a very solid option, since it will lay the beating down on Affinity while removing problematic equipment from FS, AS, etc. and destroy Aether Vials. I would personally run a lone Eladamri's Call and drop the count down on some of the Slivers.
This seems like a strong base:
4 Plated Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver
That seems pretty consistent to me, since you have 4 of the Slivers you really want to see and 2 each of the ones that you don't need to see or see multiples of. With the addition of 1 Eladamri's Call, you gain the ability to find either Muscle Sliver or Crystalline Sliver #5 while being able to toolbox the other 2-of Slivers. If there isn't enough room to fit all 3 of the toolbox Slivers as 2-of's, they can be cut down to 1 each with 2 Eladamri's Call and the consistency of the deck would still be fine. I realize that Eladamri's Call may slow down some tempo since it's a GW investment but your not losing card advantage since it goes to hand and you are gaining alot of consistency. The deck is already effecient on tempo because of the low cc curve anyway.
I feel that this deck is a somewhat combo-esque in the way it sets up, in that it wants to see a certain blend of Slivers. Eladamri's Call helps achieve that. You want to see a Crystalline Sliver vs anything with spot removal, you want to have multiple Muscle Slivers and Plated Slivers in play, and you want to see the toolbox Slivers as 1-of's (multiples doesn't hurt though) against certain matchups.
This deck wants to use the tempo countermagic early game to stabalize while it achieves those combo pieces. This deck wants to get to the mid-late game and continue to have control. For that reason, I believe that Counterspell is good in here. I'm not a big fan of it as a 3-of, since its dead early on, but I do think it is good here. I would support a 4/3/2 split of countermagic with 3 Stifle. Stifle is good but this deck lacks synergy within for it (such as using Jotun Grunt), and I don't think I would run 4.
You want cantrip to keep the deck fueled, though I'm not sure the correct #. I think Eladamri's Call can replace cantrip though, and I'd probably run 4/4 Brainstorm/Visions with 2 Eladmri's Call.
I think 4 StP should be sufficient spot removal maindeck with Talon Sliver maindeck.
I don't think this deck needs Meddling Mage maindeck and I also believe that Jotun Grunt is not needed here. Meddling Mage is fine in the sideboard and I think Tormod's Crypt will be stronger than Jotun Grunt. Running non-Slivers in a Sliver deck seems anti-synergistic since the entire basis of the deck is that each of the Sliver abilities pumps every other creature on the table.
I also don't think that Worship is that good here. I realize that Crystalline + Worship can be GG for some decks, but the fact that it requires the deck to have Worship and Crystalline Sliver in play seems a little situational. Beyond that, it also requires the deck to see 4 lands prior. Worship does nothing to Solidarity, Threshold can counter it or answer it post-board, so the major matchup for it (besides random aggro) seems to be Goblins. Goblins will often race you, since you need to see 4 lands, Crystalline Sliver, and Worship and you need to play Crystalline Sliver and Worship first. It seems to me like it just pulls you into the danger of cool plays... and this deck is already combo-esque enough as it is. Personally, I wouldn't run Worship at all.
Thanks for the awesome input, Hanni. I love the comparison of Talon Sliver to Engineered Plague. That's very astute.
I like the simplicity and uncluttered feeling of my current, Talon-less deck. However, it cannot be denied that Talon Sliver is great against Goblins. Maybe a toolbox approach is the way to go.
Perhaps a Stifle could be cut. I think I actually want to stick with 3 Counterspells, though.
Much to think about.
One question - or beef, if you will - I have with regards to Counterspell is that fact that, well, it isn't free. Sure, it says "Just say no to target card," but it requires you to leave UU open at all times to be useful. And in a deck like this, which seems to be fairly aggressive, I would rather play a man than leave UU open on the offchance that my opponent might do something devastating. I could see the logic of maindecked Counterspell in a primarily combo meta, but in a less defined environment I'd rather run Daze or more guys. That said, has this been a problem for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
True, the counterspells can be clunky at times. They will force you to make some tough decisions at certain points in the game. Do I cast this sliver in my hand, or do I keep counter mana open? It comes down to evaluating the board position and understanding the matchup. What is my opponent playing? How much mana does he have? What is he likely to cast on his next turn? It's a skill-intensive card, and unlike Daze, Counterspell gets better and better as the game goes on. I used to be against Counterspells in this deck, but I've come around to liking them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
As I've said before, I ditched the Dazes in my build a long time ago, and I'm never going back. I always hated having useless Dazes in my hand after the first couple of turns. Also, this deck isn't quite so happy about bouncing land #1 back to its hand as Thresh is. CounterSliver really wants to get 3 lands on the board without interruption. Thresh is perfectly content to play a land, drop a Mongoose, and then bounce that land back to its hand to pay for a Daze. We don't have that luxury. We want to get Crystalline Sliver on the board as fast as possible. I honestly think dropping the Dazes is one of the better design decisions that I've made. Btw, one of the reasons I like Harmonic Sliver so much is because it allows me to "clean up" a lot of that crap that I previously would have relied on Daze to hopefully keep off the board. i.e. Aether Vial, Chalice, Survival, Pernicious Deed, etc.
I just finished a playtesting session of 30 "left versus right" games. "Left" was CounterSliver, and "Right" was mono-red Goblins. The CounterSliver build used was my latest build (i.e. no Talons or Worships). The Goblins build is very similar to Coppola's build, except no fetchlands, and one Tinkerer was swapped out for an additional SGC. For reference, here are the decklists:
Vial Goblins
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
14 Mountain
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander
CounterSliver
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver
2 Harmonic Sliver
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Portent
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Counterspell
Before disclosing the results, let me make the following disclaimers. I tried my best to make the "correct" play each turn for each hand, without considering the specific contents of the other hand, and let the results fall as they may. However, it is impossible to rule out personal bias, as I admit I was "rooting" for the slivers on some level. Also, each opening hand was played as if knowing what deck the opponent was playing, and mulliganed appropriately. Obviously, in a tournament, you won't always know what your opponent is playing. Finally, all games were played without sideboard. These results are for "first games" only.
Okay, now for the results:
CounterSliver
Games Won: 21
Record when going 1st: 12-3
Record when going 2nd: 9-6
Goblins
Games Won: 9
Record when going 1st: 6-9
Record when going 2nd: 3-12
I think these results are somewhat skewed, as it seemed like CounterSliver generally got pretty good draws during that 30-game span. Still, it's hard to attribute such lopsided results totally to chance. I feel completely comfortable in saying that CounterSliver is favored at least 60-40 against Goblins, even without the benefit of maindeck Talon Slivers and/or Worship.
Few questions/comments. In terms of your manabase, seems that you may want to go:Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
-2 Polluted Delta
+2 Windswept Heath
Give you a few more ways to fetch your plains singleton.
How have 4 stifles worked out for you? During your play testing you mentioned, did you ever have them sitting in your hand wishing you had a counter? Especially since the Goblins build you tested did not have any fetches, most Goblins builds typically run 6-8 fetch lands. Maybe you can go into a little more deepth on some of your matches.
I did see your post regarding counterspell Vs. Daze. Seems to me that and combination of Daze and Counterspell might be better. Seems like you have tough time playing the aggro and control role and the same time. Where Daze would help immensely.
Maybe the counter spells could look like:
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Counterspell
I believe you mentioned this before, maybe at the TMD, but you don't care for Eladamri's Call. Have you tested it out? Definitely allow you to play more of a toolbox approach. Where you could MB Talon Sliver and Winged Sliver at the same time.
Been there, tried that. I found that it's almost always more important to be able to fetch a basic island than a basic plains.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
The Stifles are particularly amazing in the Goblins MU. I was always happy to have Stifles in my hand. I wish I could run more. They're used primarily to stop Wastelands, Ringleaders, and Matrons, which are hugely advantageous things for you to stop. Fetchlands are also a juicy target, if your opponent is running them. Stifles are actually better than hard counters in many instances. A Counterspell won't stop a vialled out Ringleader from triggering. Nor will it keep your only green source from getting Wasted.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
EDIT:
I didn't really take notes on the individual games. However, I can give some general tips for how to play the matchup:
1. In your opening hand, you want 2-3 lands, a cantrip, and some combination of Crystalline, Plated, and Muscle Slivers. You can keep an opening hand with just 1 land and a cantrip or two, but it could get dicey. One land with no cantrips will lose. A handful of lands and counterspells and cantrips - but no slivers - will lose. Mulliganing correctly is very important.
2. Play Plated Sliver first turn if you can. Play Crystalline Sliver 2nd turn if you can.
3. Turn 4 for Goblins is a big turn (unless they've missed land drops). Keep mana open for a Stifle or Counterspell if you can. Try to prevent them from Fact-or-Fictioning you with Ringleader!
I ran a build with Dazes for a long while. Obviously, they can be pretty good in the first couple of turns, if your opponent is foolish enough to blunder into them. They're generally not very good after that, and they're a downright terrible topdeck. Overall, I just don't like them in this deck, and I'm very glad I took them out. The deck is better off without them, for reasons I've already explained.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
Yes, I've tested it. I even liked it. Mav & Pinder never cared for it much, but I always thought running a lone EC was a reasonable choice. Ultimately, though, I decided the better route to go was to add a few more cantrips and streamline the creature base.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
I don't feel there is room in the deck for Winged, Talon, and Harmonic Slivers. Between the three, the most important one is Winged. After that, it's up for debate. Not to belabor the point, but I prefer Harmonic Sliver for the added versatility, but I wouldn't blame anyone for running Talons instead.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with everything Volt said. I'm still not completely sold on Counterspell in the main, but we need another counter, and it certainly holds better than Daze in the long run. If only Spell Snare said 'two or less'! Then I'm pretty sure it would be an auto include. But alas, until they print some better counterspell (and don't say Daze), we're stuck with the classics.
EDIT: Oh, and @ Eladamri's Call: Well, maybe, if you can find some way to make up for the tempo loss. The only Sliver I would run as a singleton is Harmonic, though. Talon and especially Winged are too important to not have more than 1. Maybe a 3/2/1 split?
A 3/2/1 split of toolbox Slivers seems appropriate, although I'd probably run a 2/2/1 split. I'd probably sideboard 1-2 Harmonics as well.
This is probably what I would do:
U/W/g Slivers
Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Island
1 Plains
Creatures (17)
4 Plated Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Eladamri's Call
I'm not going to outline a sideboard, although cards like Pithing Needle and Engineered Explosives seem appropriate.
Well, I don't really see what the problem is. Cantrip, in itself, is a tempo loss. Your paying mana to give yourself better card quality. Eladamri's Call is a cantrip, it replaces itself. The difference is that, instead of fixing your hand slightly, you directly tutor up one of your Slivers. The Sliver creature base is combo-ish, since you want a blend of Slivers. Eladamri's Call is a 2cc cantrip rather than a 1cc cantrip but it tutors up the Sliver you need at the right time. It doesn't seem like a huge tempo loss, especially not later on. I'd actually cut a land to fit in a 2nd Eladamri's Call but I presented the list above because I felt it would be more acceptable than a 17 land version.Quote:
Oh, and @ Eladamri's Call: Well, maybe, if you can find some way to make up for the tempo loss
Daze is extremely potent and very important for gaining dominance in the early game against just about every deck... so you can play that turn 1 Plated turn 2 Crystalline and still answer that turn 2 Werebear or whatever.
Well, that's my take on it at least.
Dont forget that Stifle gives you more outs against a first turn lackey. Often you will drop a sliver on you second turn so an opening hand of Stifle + Crystal Sliver is keepable against Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
I'm not sure it is a problem, it generates exactly the same effect as a cantrip except the quality is better. I was thinking something on the lines of a 2/2 with 2 Eladamri's Call.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath
4 Plated Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
2 Eladamri's Call
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Serum Visions
Back to the Daze topic, I'm just confused on your decision to exclude Daze. Sure, late game it can be a total dud. Early on it is so useful, extremely more than Counterspell. I even can't count the times where I've had a Daze and definitely would not want to have a CounterSpell in Threshold or CounterSliver. Vice visa is a lot smaller.
I just don't like Dazes in this deck. Good players will play around them, and they get worse and worse as the game goes on. I hate having useless cards in my hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
Countersliver is a bit more robust than Thresh. It does not mind going to the late game against most decks, and has the tools to ensure that it gets there. Outside of the first few turns, Counterspell is much better than Daze. This deck does not usually lose to a spell that your opponent resolves in the first couple of turns, particularly if you run Harmonic Sliver, which allows you to clean up a lot of problems. I keep making that last point, but I'm not sure it's getting through.
Regarding Hanni's suggestions... If I were going to go with the toolbox approach, I would take my latest list and make the following changes:
-1 Counterspell
-1 Winged Sliver
-1 Portent
+2 Talon Sliver
+1 Eladamri’s Call
Seems solid. Might even be an improvement. The nice thing about running a singleton EC is that you typically don’t draw it until later in the game, when it’s usually a great topdeck. You don’t generally want it in your opening hand, but it’s not the worst thing ever if that happens.
One weakness this deck has is mass removal spells like Wrath. Daze does not stop a Wrath effect if the opponent even suspects that you have it. Force of Will and Counterspell force them to have a counter to back up their removal.
I am a big fan of the mainboarded Harmonic Slivers, because I absolutely hate losing games I should win because I do not have an answer to Worship, or Solitary Confinement, or even something like Isochron Sceptor. Again, it cleans up things that have slipped through the cracks in the early game and are now preventing you from winning the late game.
I would run the full four Stifles and no Dazes, but most people tend to assume he is playing Daze because of the similarity of the deck to Thresh, and older versions did run Daze. Stifle is always great, even if the opponent knows you have them.
I played against Volt Friday night, and knew he had Stifles, and still got three fetchlands Stifled. Daze can be played around, but sometimes Stifle cannot be.
I agree. Also keep in mind that it can be useful even later on, if the opponent taps out completely to play something big (like hardcast Exalted Angel or etc). Also keep in mind that if your going to play FoW, your going to need stuff to pitch to it anyway. Also keep in mind that it can be cantripped away later on when it is no longer useful to you. Daze provides the amazing early game countermagic while Counterspell does that for you later on. 3/2 Daze/Counterspell is better than 3 Counterspell, in my opinion.Quote:
Back to the Daze topic, I'm just confused on your decision to exclude Daze. Sure, late game it can be a total dud. Early on it is so useful, extremely more than Counterspell. I even can't count the times where I've had a Daze and definitely would not want to have a CounterSpell in Threshold or CounterSliver. Vice visa is a lot smaller.
I'd just like to say that I think Daze is even more necessary here than in Threshold, as well as less cantrip. Threshold only needs to drop 1 or two guys while they can invest the rest of their mana on cantrip or leave UU open for Counterspell. In Slivers, you have a higher threat density. You will be spending most of your mana resources early on to establish a creature base, where Counterspell will be useless. Daze is vital here. Slivers can get away with a lower amount of cantrips... and you don't need to fill the graveyard quickly anyway. However, you will want to be able to Daze early Sinkholes and such while your committing all of your mana sources to dropping Slivers.
I'm not going to rehash my previous arguments regarding Daze. I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
As far as the cantrips... I feel that 8 is okay, but 9 or 10 is better. It's not about filling up the graveyard, and I wish that point would not be raised again. It's about finding what I need, be it a sliver, a land, a Stifle, a Force of Will, or whatever.
I am strongly considering the Eladamri's Call/Toolbox suggestions, but I'm not going back to Dazes and 8 Cantrips. I already know we can build a solid CounterSliver deck with those things. I'm looking to tweak the deck into something that is more consistent and powerful.
When I was referring to not needing lots of cantrip, I realize it fuels the deck. I was trying to point out that instead of running alot of cantrip like Thresh, you could run the 8 of Brainstorm/Visions and then toss in 2 Eladamri's Call and be fine. It's really up to you though, I'm just providing my opinion since you asked me to do so. That's another reason I strongly recommend Daze... I'm not trying to convince you about what is good and what is bad, etc, I'm just giving my 2 cents.
Oh, I know. I hope there's no hard feelings. There certainly aren't any coming from my corner. I do value your opinion and appreciate your input. You've convinced me to reconsider a few things. Just not the Dazes. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Except that all of our cantripping only costs 1 mana. If Call costed G (or W) and didn't suck as much as Worldly Tutor, it would be tons better. I suppose the extra mana investment could be written off as the cost of quality, though. I could see them replacing Portent in the list Volt posted before.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
Worldly TutorQuote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
Search your library for a creature card and reveal that card. Shuffle your library, then put the revealed card back on top of it.
Eladamri's Call
Search your library for a creature card, reveal that card, and put it into your hand.
Call is strictly better in the deck we are talking about.