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At the moment i'd prefer to stay mono white, and that's why i am tweaking phae's list to have a good combo matchup without weaknessing thres and goblin matchup too mutch.
For this, we have mana tithe, true believer, orim chant and abeyance(and chalice and sphere to a lesser extend). But well, sometime i think that it is hard to have good matchup againt the big 3 (combo, gob and thresh).
Holo.
If you're staying mono-white, make sure to test out Mana Tithe. Nobody sees it coming and it plays fantastic. All around it's pretty hot. Good for your mana-curve. Shores up considerably your combo mu's. My real question is whether to run 3 or 4. Luck to ya.
what is the latest white build ?
Umm i have a list but i dont run stonecloakers and i run leyline of singularity so i think my list may be a little controversial.
7 plains
8 fetch
4 karakas
4 wasteland
4 sensei's top
4 vial
4 ummewaza's jitte
4 swords to plowshares
4 leyline of singularity
4 serra avenger
4 silver knight
3 mangara
3 isamaru
3 jotun grunt
4 chalice
3 orim's chant
3 tivadar
2 cataclysm
3 crypt
Yeah, I am also interested in the latest decklist. I want to make this deck work at my upcoming tournament... So I'm soaking up as much info as I can... But I will make a report, so it evens out, sorta :p
Phaerimm posted a mono-white list a couple of pages back. Try that one out, it's been tried and tested. It's a solid build.
With regard to what you're currently trying Phaerimm... back to wasteland and ports? What's the reasoning behind this? Wasteland and Port were better when Hokori and Glowrider were main-decked. I don't see locking down or wasting lands playing as much of a role now. If you're going down that path, why not try 2x Weathered Wayfarer with 3x wastes and 3x ports. I was running that previously and being able to grab multiples and/or karakas was working alright. I eventually cut this whole strategy with the inclusions of cataclysm though. What made you go back to a more traditional build?
@smoky: lookin forward to the report. Good luck.
Ok here is the list i have tweaked to the way i am extremely happy with. Phaerim, i seriously doubt that you are anywere ahead of me on the hate issue... atleast with this list.
The Black death... + taxes
Lands(22)
3 plains
4 scrubland
7 fetches
4 wasteland
4 karakas
Creatures(21)
4 serra avenger
4 Silver knight
4 Dark confidant
3 Mangara
3 Isamaru
3 jotun grunt
Control(10)
4 Stp
3 mana tithe (still testing... but its showing promise)
3 Cataclysm
Utility(7)
4 Vial
3 Jitte (meh i always get multiples of this... plus i actually only own 2)
Sideboard
4 Chalice(combo)
4 Tormod's crypt(grave decks(thresh, ichy, etc...))
3 Duress(combo/control)
3 E plauge(gobbos)
1 Cataclysm(control and a few aggro control decks)
My list now breaks the 50/50 mark of most control and combo decks while maintaining the great aggro MU. Black gives this deck confidant which is just insane all the time. Plus it gives us a great tool against control that stacks as a great answer to combo, and a a better way to answer goblins. I had to remove the top so i could fit in cards like tithe and cataclysm and it has been working for me.
Thoughts,
I think that's what makes Legacy interesting... being able to build a deck that is decent against Goblins while beating Combo, or being decent against Combo while beating Goblins. The 2 decks are so different that what is good against one is normally bad against the other. If a deck is able to consistently win against combo, goblins and threshold, it will be the king of legacy. We are lucky no king has come to claim that position yet :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Holo_rip
Coming back on topic... I don't really quite get all the variations of this deck.
First... is Isamaru such a great play? I know, a 2/2 for 1 mana is awesome, but what is the role it fits? Answer to Lackey? Early Beater? Would Mother of the Runes fit that slot (changing one aggro 1-drop for a control 1-drop).
And about the "Taxes" aspect of the deck... I only see Mana Tithe as a legitimate Taxing Effect now. Why Glowrider and Hokori left the deck? Taxing strategy was not as good as expected?
And.. lastly... Silver Knight. Why is he in most builds? Is it just an edge against Goblins? Wouldn't other critters like Knight of the Holy Nimbus or Glowrider fit more the "taxing" theme of the deck?
Has Grand Arbitrer Augustin been considered? (in the blue splash). It's slow, I know, but can be a pain in the ass... is it TOO slow?
About the black splash. It is mainly to improve our combo matchup, so why don't you run a full set of duress (or 3 is you've got lots of goblin in your meta) ?
About taxing effect. If we're bound to run waste and port, i really think that (just like ninjabear said) we need more taxing effect. Glowrider and mana tithe seem to fit well this point, being able to have "taxing effect" against must of deck, and being able to have "answer" to combo (even if glowrider is really slow without two mana land or chrome mox).
About cataclysm and Hikori. Ok cataclysm help us to answer some thing like an horde of goblin cast via EtW, but hikori seem to be stricly better to me with more taxing effect like mana tithe, glowrider, waste and port. The only problem i can see is that we just NEED some way to get it back to our hand before our turn (and thus karakasa or stonecloaker).
Just my two cent.
Holo.
Also, what about Astral Slide? Could be a really cool with Tivadar / Mangara; though I don't think that a critical mass of cycling cards would fit in the deck.
Yes, as Holo pointed out I guess it's Hokori OR Cataclysm... and though Hokori has more synergy with the deck (Karakas, Vial, Stonecloaker), Cataclysm is a more powerful card (can win a game by itself). A pity there's not a Cataclysm-like critter :)
My only concern... there's no draw, and Karakas is the only source of "reusability" of critters (works like a special kind of draw). Is there any nice white card to draw? (not Tithe :P).
Just my two euro cents
Yeah, these are good questions. If you go here and click to show the old opening post, there is a complete history of this deck. You can see the ideas and iterations it has gone through.
But to be brief about it, the deck did too many cute things including all of the ones you guys are talking about.
Glowrider was a centerpiece in the deck on and off for a long time, and it was deadly once it hit play against Solidartiy and Iggy Pop, both of which are storm combo decks that are a turn or two slower than the stuff available today. I do not recommend Glowrider any longer. It's too slow to be relevant any more. Ditto Augustin.
Hokori is awesome defense against BGW control, Landstill, and 43Lands. I would recommend him in both those matchups except that Cataclysm is almost as good there, but is also good against Empty the Warrens, Stax, Enchantress, Goblins, etc. Hokori can be good against Goblins as well, but requires you to be out in front first. Eh, it happens, but it isn't in the same timezone as the freaking slam that Cataclysm deals them. Cataclysm puts you from behind to in front. If board control decks are the norm in your meta, you can use them both.
Cataclysm is bad against Thresh and Fish decks, though. But then, so is Hokori.
Oh, and I would skip Engineered Plague, and go to 4 Duress in the black splash. Confidant seems really good.
I really like Samurai. He is so tricksie. But I just can't stomach having my Flagstones be nerfed by my own card. Now I don't face Ichy much at all. Is this a hard matchup w/out? Is our existing gy hate insufficient? Is the tradeoff enough?
EDIT: Astral Slide is a no-no. Too much baggage. Parallax Wave is a possibility, but it is bad against gobbos.
The deck has no game without Samurai. Pete played against Ichorid 3 times at the Dual land Draft and I watched SotPC carry him in each game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
What kind of hate do you think you have without him? How can you stop a turn 2 rush of zombies?
I have no idea how you can play ichorid 3 times. The first time i ever played in the same tourney as a ichy player was at the sea drake thing. Its not that played is it.
@phaerim: Sorry i must have misunderstood what you said about hate. I might make some of the changes you suggested but why take out the wastelands. And also the changes you suggested dropped my land count... i dont think this is wise as this deck uses the mana late game(also since your changes call for the readdition of top)
Oh and i live in Shelton... its close to bridgeport. They dont run any legacy as of now but im going to talk to him about it.
As promised a report from my tournament sunday 5th of august. Unfortunately no top 8 (placed 9th of 44...) so I am posting it in this thread instead of in the appropriate forum.
First of all the decklist:
I sorta copied it from the list PhaerimmArchlord posted a few posts ago, but changed the sideboard slightly:
Land:
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
9 Plains
Creatures
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Serra Avenger
3 Silver Knight
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Stonecloaker
Spells
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
3 Cataclysm
4 Mana Tithe
Side
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Tivadar of Thorn
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Powder Keg
1 Silver Knight
3 Abolish
Round 1 vs Michiel (Landstill)
game 1 goes very quickly since I got to Wasteland his first Tundra fairly quick while a Silver Knight bashes him. A quick Mangara/Karakas lock keeps him low on land and I win.
game 2: I am mana screwed in the first few turns and he has lots of lands. I cannot keep creatures on the table while he chains fact or fictions into a Vedalkan Shackles and my own Knight does me in.
game 3: Jitte, Karakas, Isamaru, Serra Avenger. 'nuff said.
WIN (1-0-0)
Round 2 vs Tom(B/W Pikula)
game 1 starts very badly since I am mulliganing to 5. But those 5 are 2 Plains, a Rishadan Port and 2 Serra Avenger. And I draw one in my first few cards. That's too much for hime and she goes the distance.
game 2: mana screw and he seems to draw all his land destruction.
game 3: keep a 4 land hand, but I see all 4 vindicates and 3 sinkhole, well, let's keep it at that
LOSS (1-1-0)
Round 3 vs Robin (U/W aggro-control)
First of all, let's say that Lady Luck was not on Robin's side.
game 1: Robin casts a first turn Mother of Runes, which I plow. I keep him of his important lands with a Rishadan Port and Wasteland, he names Samurai of the Pale Curtain with a Meddling Mage (he killed it before, but was fearing it for some reason), and I win with a Serra Avenger and a Silver Knight.
game 2: Robin casts a first turn Mother of Runes, which I plow. Try to at least, he forces it, I cast Jitte, Serra Avenger, kill his Mother of Runes and Silver Knight with the Jitte and win with Serra Avenger
WIN (2-1-0)
Intermezzo: Serra Avenger RULES!
Round 4 vs Benny (Green/White and of course RED Goblins)
Deng, I get paired against someone with 9 points, he obviously looks intelligent and experienced, I am a bit afraid. My notes are sloppy since this was a hard hard match and I needed some brain rest afterwards.
game 1: Silver Knight, Serra Avenger, no decent goblins from his side, and still, he pulls the win in one giant swoop. Thats goblins for ya.
game 2: I side in the 3 Tivadars and a Silver Knight, take out some random stuff. That oughta do it. And it does. Tivadar is a monster in this match-up, as is Jitte. I pull the Stonecloaker-Tivadar trick once, he keeps on Tin-streeting my vials and jittes, but never gets any pressure on the board, because I plow some stuff and block/kill the rest. I end this game on 22 life and win with Tivadar, Stonecloaker and Serra Avenger.
game 3: This one was very very close as he manages to plow my Silver Knight and kill my Vials. I eventually get there with a vial on 3, Tivadar, Karakas, Isamaru and Stonecloaker. I kill his Siege-Gang Commanders twice with the goblin token trigger on the stack so he cannot damage me that much. I take a small blocking guess, which was the right one so my serra avenger keeps on truckin', and I win.
Very exciting match
WIN (3-1-0)
Intermezzo: go go, 1 more win and a draw to top 8, unfortunately for
Round 5 vs Brenda (Angel Stax)
I know she was playing Stax, but I figure if I put enough pressure, I can make it before the lock. But Lady Luck decided to leave me alone...
Game 1: Very long, verrrrry long. Let's just say, my answers always came 1 turn too late, Armageddons galore, never got enough white mana to cast decent stuff.
Game 2: Copy from game 1.
LOSS (3-2-0)
After this round I decide Rishadan Port is not worth it anymore, I want to replace them with 1 Wasteland and 2 Plains. It makes the Abolish better too...
Round 6 vs ... Did not write down his name (Belcher)
Game 1: I knew he was Belching his way around, so I was afraid. He is on the draw (he rolled 19, I rolled 20). I saw his hands shaking when he drew his initial seven, so I thought he had the first turn kill, or first turn shitload of gobbos. I was right. I was on the play and had Mana Tithe...
I played Plains, decided against casting Isamaru or Vial and said go. He played land grant, showed his hand, I figure out his ideal play (he had 14 gobbo hand) and when he cast Wild Cantor, Petal, Taiga, Rite of Flame, I counter his Seething Song. He cannot win after that while my creatures bash him down.
Game 2: I side in 3 Sphere of Resistance, 2 Powder Keg. He is on the play, dangerous dangerous! I have in hand: sphere of resistance, vial, serra avenger, isamaru. So if I can survive until my turn 2, I can start bashing him hard. I survive until turn 2, cast Sphere of Resistance, he struggles a lot, and cannot get there. And if he could, I had a deadly mana tithe.
WIN (4-2-0)
I am quite happy with my result, especially after playing this deck in a real and decent tournament with decent players, and losing to some weird twists of fate, which can be avoided with my new changes.
I did not put it in my notes, but Mana Tithe is a very very good card. It first takes them by surprise, and the next games they try to play around it. Cataclysm only worked well once, but when it did... Karakas was read by a lot of people, and my first opponent laughed when i played the 'junk' Mangara, until he (or she) took Tundras to oblivion.
My new suggested decklist:
11 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Isamaru
3 Mangara
3 Silver Knight
4 Serra Avenger
3 Stonecloaker
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Jitte
4 StP
4 Mana Tithe
3 Cataclysm
4 Aether Vial
Side
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Tivadar
3 Abolish
3 Sacred Ground
1 Silver Knight
3 Sphere of Resistance
Grunt is not THAT good, and Stax can be a problem, as well as Pikula, unless you can keep Mangara/Karakas, and that only can happen if you can keep your Karakas. Impossible if it gets Wasted all the time. So, Sacred Ground is a must I think. Grunt looks like the least needed card, looks, since I didnt play against ********.
Thanks to Finn and PhaerimmArchlord and all other posters in this thread!
Phew, this was a lot :)
Did you play in belgium at a tournament in mol?
I like your list but i cant help but wonder if loosing the grunts is a good thing.
Congrats, squirrel. That's not a bad showing.
Nightbringer, I think that most folks these days believe that there is no one optimal list. There is a lot of room for metagaming. Squirrel's list was a little more controlling than some. Feel free to make use of Grunts if you think they belong. But since he did not face Threshold at all, he seems to have made the right choice.
Yup, I did :) Did the names give it away? I understand that the loss of Jotun Grunt is a big thing... I want Sacred Ground (goes well with cataclysm in the way that I probably won't lose that last land) and him in my list, but I don't know how to manage that... So I am hoping for suggestions. But for now they are gone I think, see how I fare in other matches.
This deck is indeed very meta oriented and i never played it so i gues i will have to play it a couple of times so i can make my own build.
I ask't because if he played in belgium then he is in the same meta as i am so this build be a great list to start from if i want to build the deck.
The most important question is...
is Mangara a he or a she?
"Mangara is gone. Who among you doubts that I have taken his power?" -Kaervek
(Flavour text for "Disempower")