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Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Wait!?
REB and Pyroblast are the EXACT SAME CARD!!!
i like to run 2/2 so that way the meddling mage, can only hit 50% of them if things REALLY get to that...
also if the Crainal Extract (again, i know WTF) but why not since it only helps, and they are the SAME CARD!!!
They're not:
REB requires a blue target.
Pyroblast can be cast on any target (does not have to be blue), increasing the storm count.
Concerning the changes to the list: I always hate drawing multiple Chrome Mox, but they're great to cast a fast plunge or tutor and against land disruption; they help to reach hellbent and increase the storm too. I don't think cutting free permanent mana sources should be the way to go...
The second Tendril is the most non-essential card in the deck if it comes down to cutting a card for Chrome Mox, and after that I'd cut the Orim's Chants just to get back up to the 4th Plunge into Darkness and 10th land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmi
Speaking of lands, I think I've had it with Undiscovered Paradise, because I've been running Glimmervoids and I've never had a problem with them reducing storm compared to Undiscovered Paradise reducing mana. I think it's the least problematic land out of the three, the third being Forbidden Orchard, and it's draw back is almost negligible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmi
WHAT!!!
from Oracle:
Pyroblast
Choose one - Counter target spell if it's blue; or destroy target permanent if it's blue.
Red Elemental Blast
Choose one - Counter target blue spell; or destroy target blue permanent.
what am i missing?
AHH
10/4/2004 You can target any spell or permanent, it need not be blue. It just does not do anything unless the color matches.
that...
thats REALLY weird...
I believe two Tendrils of Agony is nessesary due to the fact in the average game you remove about 10 cards. Ive gone through games with 40+ cards removed and lost because all I had left was Empty the Warrens and they were sitting on EE. I refuse to lose the game to my own deck. As for adding more land, why? With 4 Simian Spirit Guide all you need is nine, I'd understand if your 9th land was Tomb; however, most of us cut Tomb.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I tested Glimmervoid awhile back before Undiscovered, it might as well be Lotus Petal that doesn't add storm. It rarely stays on the table after turn one, if it does it's because you went (Glimmervoid, Petal, go) ruining your storm count. Orchard was good before the deck started using Empty the Warrens more, I don't believe it is as good now. Providing blockers for your win condition is never a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
wastedlife: so what's the sideboarding plan with blasts? what goes out?
Look, here's how it works:Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon_demon1
"Counter target blue spell" has the 'blue' before spell, so it determines what the target of the spell can be. The target of this spell is always a "blue spell" for it to be legally cast. Same with the destruction ability. By contrast, Pyroblast says "Counter target spell" so it can target any spell as the target-like is just 'target spell', which doesn't require it to target a blue spell, but rather any spell. The spell is only countered if it's blue though, but the target is legal as long as there's a permanent in play or a spell on the stack. Red Elemental Blast only has legal targets if there's a blue spell on the stack or a blue permanent in play.
1) I think the number of times the deck draws a useless Tendrils of Agony are worse than the number of times that the deck RFGs your only Tendrils of Agony and you can't just win with Burning Wish->Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
2) Because I find land drops are more important than Simian Spirit Guide when it comes to casting Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns on turn one and then casting Diminishing Returns on turn two with UU available. I'm never displeased to see a second land in the starting hand or after the Brainstorm, and a second Simian Spirit Guide just doesn't seem as good to me. I want two stable mana sources in order to be able to cast Burning Wish into a counter with out losing an accelerant, and I think that requires 15 permanent mana sources to do it.
3) Most of the time I find losing one storm from Glimmervoid isn't as awful as losing one mana from Undiscovered Paradise, because storm isn't at a premium in this deck while mana is. I think Undiscovered Paradise is awful in this deck for the same reason that Forbidden Orchard is awful in this deck, because Forbidden Orchard is generating tokens that conflict with one of the win conditions, while Undiscovered Paradise is conflicting with top decking a land after casting a Xantid Swarm or drawing another land after casting a Diminishing Returns (and having to pass).
Those are all marginal points tho'.
Am I the only one worried about the not so good goblins matchup? Even with the first version, when you don't know what your opponent is playing, you can lose game1 against mana denial while keeping an ok hand with Xanthid Swarm.
Then after side, Chalices, Pillars combined with mana denial and the ability to stop a moderate early ETW (storm 5 or lower) can make it really hard.
Now, with the new side plan, there is nothing amazing to bring against them. No more multiple Sprees for Chalice, so you're forced to wish for a solution. I agree Duress and Therapy can be nice to remove their anti combo plan on the play, but you'd want to remove 4 Swarms and 2 Chants if possible and there's nothing else valuable to bring (Careful Study? :rolleyes: ). Maybe the deck focuses too much against (Aggro-)Control.
SSG seems like a nice add though.
Oh, I played one of the worst matchups ever on a MWS tournament too: Goblin Fish (with 4x MD stifle, 3xFow, 4xDaze, the worst gobs for us - including easy removal for xanthid with 4xSGC or Gempalm - and the mana denial package). Counters, good removal, mana denial and a nice clock. Definitively one of the best anti storm-combo list.
I won against 2x Uwb fish, 1x White Stax, and lost against crop rotation.dec too, with the list from the primer. How strange.
I think you're letting this get to your head, Goblins is a goldfish. You flat out beat them, you probably had a streak of bad luck, it happens. Also, as far as I'm aware of GoblinFish hasn't seen any real play, so why be concerned? As for the list, as I've said before I'm always changing my list. Here's what I've been testing the last week or so...Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmi
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
1 [SOK] Tomb of Urami
// Creatures
4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
3 [FD] Plunge into Darkness
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [7E] Duress
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [PS] Orim's Chant
I decided that the maindeck Orim's Chants we're better off as additional mana sources in the form of the 10th land and the 4th Chrome Mox. However, I didn't want to completely remove them so they are in the sideboard for now. It's funny that you mentioned Shattering Spree because I haven't ran 3 SB in awhile, up until this list. I cut earthquake from the sideboard due to it being the least wished for card, not to mention post SB Red Elemental Blast takes care of the one creature we do care about (Meddling Mage).
so what is the sideboard plan? when do the REB come in and what goes out for them? (also what matchup)
Depends on match-ups really.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeDennis
Solidarity
-1 Diminishing Returns
-3 Plunge into Darkness
-2 Simian Spirit Guide
+4 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Orim's Chant
Threshold
-3 Plunge into Darkness
-2 Simian Spirit Guide
-1 Tendrils
Goblins
-4 Xantid Swarm
+3 Shattering Spree
+1 Duress
The Tendrils Combo Mirror (TES/Iggy)
- 4 Xantid Swarm
+2 Red Elemental blast
+2 Orim's Chant
Do you get the idea? Its generally all the same.
I really like every change you made there, taking what seems to be the best from each version.
Tomb is really nice, stealing games against control-like decks, and there is almost no reason not to play it when you have more red sources now.
Gobfish isn't something to be worried about currently, and won't probably ever be, but it illustrates what really hurts this deck.
And I really think vial goblins isn't a goldfish. They have up to 12 cards to bring against TES after side, and interact a lot with the deck. The ETW plan hardly works with Pyrokinesis and Sharpshooter to limit it. If they're smart, they'll mull agressively for turn1 chalice or turn1 lackey/vial + turn2 pillar/heavy mana denial. I tested about 30 post side games playing both real decks (information being at the advantage of TES more often), and the overall result seemed to be even. Maybe I didn't mull agressively enough, as vial gob has several game plans it's not always easy to say which hands you should get rid of. But my experience tought me to keep hands with most acceleration you can, as wroten in the primer, finally.
Maybe I'm too sceptical about game 1 before side too, as my few disapointing results might be bad luck. But even with something like 70% game1 and 50% after side, it's not auto win and might be a bit disapointing for a combo deck.
Anyway, I'm still fond of the deck, able to fight aggro-control (which is more and more popular) as no other one does.
If decks with permanent based hate are a problem, I think it's worth considering replacing Plunge into Darkness with Mystical Tutor and then SBing in Force of Will, 1 bounce spell and 2 Diminishing Returns like I was doing with the list I posted a page back.
I've had a lot of success with this list on MWS,
MD
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
1 Orim's Chant
4 Right of Flame
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 (Land of choice)
SB
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
1 Goblin War Strike*
4 Force of Will
2 Diminishing Returns**
1 Echoing Truth
This is a combination of the list I posted one page back and Wastedlife's current list that I think is the right direction for TES to go in. Duress is debatable, but I'm having a lot of problems with removal for Empty the Warrens and not being able to disrupt B/W, B/R or Prison. Imprinting black is also better than imprinting green against aggro, and I find that the results are appr. the same against aggro-control as Xantid Swarm now that I can Mystical Tutor for the Diminishing Returns to get rid of the Force of Will or Mystical Tutor for the Orim's Chant if I want to use IT->IGG->IT->WinCon. Mystical Tutor is amazing, it increases the blue cards to support Force of Will, it imprints for blue to support Diminishing Returns, it shuffles two cards away to support Brainstorm, it finds Dark Ritual, it finds the second Right of Flame, it finds Tendrils of Agony, it finds Empty the Warrens, it finds Diminishing Returns and it finds Orim's Chant etc.
*I'm experimenting with a number of cards in this slot, it used to be Cabal Therapy, but a good opponent will always counter Burning Wish, so all Cabal Therapy does is discard Stifle or mass removal, and I'm not certain that's worth it when I could just as easily Diminishing Returns or Infernal Contract in that position. Goblin War Strike has been ok in testing, a lot of the times tho' I'd rather just get Diminishing Returns or Infernal Contract in order to draw cards for a second offensive. Right now I'm experimenting with Crush of Wurms and Grizzly Fate as alternate win conditions for situations where the opponent has double Meddling Mage on your win conditions or is holding Engineered Plague/Pyroclasm/Stifle for your Empty the Warrens. Grizzly Fate with Threshold is immune to Stifle. You can hard cast it at 3GG with out Lion's Eye Diamond, and at 5GG it's possible to Flashback on your following turn if you have a Lion's Eye Diamond, untap your lands and top deck some mana. Crush of Worms is immune to Engineered Plague/Pyroclams/Stifle, and despite costing 6GGG, it's not difficult to cast it if you can set it up with Infernal Tutor->Lion's Eye Diamond. I've had games where I cast the Infernal Tutor for the second Lion's Eye Diamond and planned to Burning Wish for Ill Gotten Gains, but the opponent cast Meddling Mage naming Tendrils of Agony and I still won with Burning Wish for Crush of Wurms.
**Having two Diminishing Returns in the SB is rather useful at times, because after you've Burning Wished->Diminishing Returns you usually can't do it again unless you got lucky and your removed the other Diminishing Returns, but having two Diminishing Returns in the SB means you guaranteed to be able to do it.
Edit: Infernal Contract is retardedly good in the SB, you guys should really be using it.
I hate posting in this thread because even though I play it, I hate this deck. I will, however, because of BreathWeapon's latest list.
Are you serious? What are four force of will's doing in your sideboard? You realize that, even after boarding, assuming that you keep/board in EVERY blue card in your list, you're still only playing exactly 16 blue cards, correct? That means that you'd have to mulligan, agressively, into having a force of will and a brainstorm/mystical tutor/echoing truth/d-returns in your hand.
I have no mathematical evidence to back up my next claim - I am a Spanish student, by profession, and thusly have little understanding of even the most trivial equasions. I'd say that you'd have a terrible percentage of having a FOW+blue cards as well as having a hand that could possibly win before a control-ish deck player would have two counterspells.
Why not just play xantid swarm? I fail to see it on your list. Seriously, Xantid is amazing. First of all, you get to make jokes about how the other guy is "covered in bees". Second, it's good for life, once it resolves. You either make your opponent keep shitty cards in his deck (creature kill), daze/forces it, or he scoops (assuming there are no Patron Wizard shenanigans). Is that analysis not correct?
WHy just the single MD'd Chant? Couldn't you find a better card for that? What's your game plan, just kind of sit around and hope you draw into the one MD'd piece of protection? Or is it worth going LED+ Infernal to find it, then wait another eight or ten turns to build up a hand that can beat control?
I find the inclusion of Mystical Tutor also very suspect. Why? Are you going to start running 3 MD'd IGG's, and intuition too? This deck wants to win fast, unlike IGG which can (through its virtue of having more control-ly elements) sit back and wait until it's ready.
Infernal Contract is indeed amazing (I test with wastedlife frequently, and he believes otherwise, but I reckon he smokes something bad for him), and I will test both War Strike and the second'd SB'd D-returns. But, as for the rest of your newest list, I'm not that impressed.
Force of Will has no place int his deck. We can't support it as we don't run enough blue and it would slow us down immensely.
When it comes to infernal contract i think it depends on your build. Its almost always worse than igg/dreturns, but there are times when all you have is bwish, 2 mana and an LED. If your running simian spirit guides for more free mana i can see the contract being mroe useful than it would be in previous incarnations of the deck.
1) Force of Will requires at least 16 blue cards to be functional, and the SB plan is to board out Duress, Orim's Chant and 2 Empty the Warrens for Force of Will, Echoing Truth and 2 Diminishing Returns to reach that number. Even if Force of Will turns Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere into a Hymn to Tourach, it's better than having your entire hand TKOed by your opponent before you can even react. Against Pyrostatic Pillar, you can choose to let it resolve and then Mystical Tutor for Echoing Truth while you imprint Force of Will on your Chrome Mox.
You don't have to mulligan aggressively for Force of Will, because you'll average 2 blue cards per hand. What Force of Will does is prevent the opponent from aggressively mulliganing into his hate, because the odds of it resolving aren't guaranteed any more.
Edit: You'd obviously never SB in Force of Will against an aggro-control or control player. You only SB in Force of Will when you're facing a deck that uses permanent based anti-combo cards and you are on the draw.
2) Xantid Swarm is a good card, but Xantid Swarm is useless against B/w and B/r and White Pirson and Red Aggro-Prison and R/g Belcher. Frankly, I'm tired of losing to turn 1 Xantid Swarms Time Walking the opponent into his discard, prison or kill. For every time I catch my aggro-control opponent with two counters in his hand there is a time where he catches me with a Swords to Plowshares. Duress improves the match ups against B/w and B/r and White Prison and Red Aggro-Prison and R/g Belcher while having no real affect on the aggro-control match up one way or the other (altho' sometimes it improves the aggro-control match up if they're playing more than 4 removal spells). Duress is just more consistent for me, because I can count on it doing something every time I cast it on the play against an unknown opponent, and it imprints for black mana on the draw against Goblins game 1 and discards their hate card game 3.
Edit: Xantid Swarm doesn't protect Empty the Warrens from mass removal either.
3) If I want to win with the IT/IGG chain when a Force of Will is in the graveyard, I can Mystical Tutor for the single Orim's Chant. Mystical Tutor for Orim's Chant also gives me a decisive advantage in the combo mirror.
4) Mystical Tutor is awesome, it just forces you to play the deck differently. You're less reliant on Lion's Eye Diamond and Xantid Swarm to win your games for you, because you can consistently imprint a blue card for UU and find Diminishing Returns, Empty the Warrens or Orim's Chant. You can cast it a full turn faster than Plunge into Darkness, and your not increasing your aggro-control opponent's clock. About the only thing it's worse at is tutoring for acceleration, and even then that's not entirely true, because sometimes you'd rather tutor for a Dark Ritual or the second/third Right of Flame.
Edit: Game 3 again Goblins, you get to SB Orim's Chant for Echoing Truth, and if anything slips thru' your Duress, you can use Mystical Tutor as an answer to their hate. By comparison, Plunge into Darkness for Burning Wish is incredibly slow, and the life loss is likely to get you killed if you try to do it.
I think if you play with the list for a little while, you'll appreciate it a lot more. I can understand the knee jerk reaction, but I did put a lot of time and effort into developing that list.
Its funny that you posted this yesterday, I just sleeved up your deck and started gold fishing with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
My first two responses were:
I hate drawing cabal ritual.
I hate drawing undiscovered paradise (usually in conjunction with Tomb of Urami.) Tomb and paradise, or two paradises in the opening hand started to feel like an auto mull. Even if the rest was sweet.
I see that you have moved to change these things.
I have to say, I really respect this deck. I'm a big fan of elegance, and this deck has it. I have been amazed by the card interactions in this deck.
Have you tested Tendo Ice bridge over Paradise? The colorless in subsequent turns is not useless, and having it stick instead of bounce would bother me less, but I have only goldfished with it, so what do I know. It is way better than glimmer void anyway, but that means little since it is a dubious suggestion to start with.
I think chant’s place is in the side. Swarm seems better main deck because it makes for a good one drop in prep for a turn 2 kill.
How happy have you been with the three main deck ETW.
I don’t think the FoW variant makes any sense to me, but what about Pact of Negation? If your opponent is casting during your turn try to stop you (really we are only talking about daze, FoW, and Stifle. Maybe Spellsnare.) Pact seems like a good rout. Their already increasing your count, you push it further with the pact, and go for tendrils kill thanks to it, instead of ETW for 5-6.
I know you have probably received 1000 accolades for this deck; but again, from a serious old-timer and attempted designer, this build is wicked. (As we say in New England.)
The entire point of Force of Will is to not lose to Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void or Null Rod on the draw, it's not even that radical of a SB plan considering that it has been used to the same effect in Vintage before. Pact of Negation makes no sense, because its not a reactive counter spell that can deal with permanents cast on the opponent's turn.
I still don't see the problem with Glimmervoid, I can't think of a single game where it's draw back was significant. Undiscovered Paradise into Brainstorm and revealing a land or Undiscovered Paradise into Xantid Swarm and drawing a land feels like being kicked in the nuts each time it happens. I don't think Undiscovered Paradise or Tomb of Urami are viable, because you can't count on keeping a hand with either one of them.
I think the tomb is nice. It is in the most relevent color, and if you mull to 5 you can grab it with a tutor and LED. being able to win where you would lose occasionaly seems like a fair trade for not making WUGR and pinging you.