[Deck] Burn

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

I guess I kinda don't. Bob helps you next turn, Bauble helps you next turn, Needle Drop not only damages them now but replaces itself now. When you draw a Needle Drop, you aren't really drawing a Needle Drop. You're getting a mini Leyline of Lightning and drawing another card, which is in turn less likely to be a Mountain because your deck can run more threats, better threats, and fewer land. This is something neither Bauble nor Wraith can do, at the expense of...

The only time I'd hate to top-deck a Needle Drop is if I don't have the mana to play both it and the spell I would have otherwise drawn at the same time (e.g. I have two Mountains, draw Needle Drop, and that fetches me a Flame Rift). Whether that happens a lot will require testing, but that's what I'll be doing this weekend.

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So you still don't get it...Say your opponent is at 2, you have no cards in your hand and need to draw a BURN spell. Off the top comes a Bob or a Needle Drop, you can't cast the Drop and Bob doesn't have haste so your opponent is still at 2. If you run a burn spell insted of Drop or Bob then your opponent is dead. I have moved away from running the Baubles for the same reason, at least with street wraith you can cycle it away and maybe hit a BURN spell now...get it now?

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Originally Posted by Sacearuse

So you still don't get it...Say your opponent is at 2, you have no cards in your hand and need to draw a BURN spell. Off the top comes a Bob or a Needle Drop, you can't cast the Drop and Bob doesn't have haste so your opponent is still at 2. If you run a burn spell insted of Drop or Bob then your opponent is dead. I have moved away from running the Baubles for the same reason, at least with street wraith you can cycle it away and maybe hit a BURN spell now...get it now?

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I'm pretty sure that you can still cast needle drop if your opponent wasn't dealt damage this turn.

Sure, the damage part of the spell will fizzle, but you will still draw a card.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I'm pretty sure that you can still cast needle drop if your opponent wasn't dealt damage this turn.

Sure, the damage part of the spell will fizzle, but you will still draw a card.

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A-ha, I hadn't read the card thoroughly. You can't even attempt to play a spell unless your target is legal when you attempt to play it, and if the target becomes illegal the single-target spell will fizzle entirely. Sorry about that, NDrop is indeed a horrible topdeck. :frown:

I know you are all excited to see my latest burn list! *hears crickets in the background*

// Burn Deck
// Lands
2 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountain

// Creatures
4 Keldon Marauders

// Spells
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Incinerate
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Flamebreak
3 Flame Rift
3 Magma Jet

// Sideboard
4 Shatterering Spree
4 Flames of the Blood Hand
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flame Rift
1 Flamebreak
1 Thunderbolt

Keldon Marauders is underrated. I feel he should be played more often. Usually he nets me 5 damage, but if not its still guaranteed 2 damage. He has saved my ass so many times even when its just chumping a Goyf. I prefer him over Mogg, due to the higher damage potential. Thunderbolt and an extra Flame Rift is in the board to give me something to side out my PoP's against mono decks. I am not sure about Flames of the Blood Hand over Vortex, but I was thinking maybe too much self-inflicted damage with Rift. The life gaining prevention is not too important any right now, and I usually just use it to side in when Flamebreak is irrelevant.

Interesting list, L.E.T.C. Is the Thunderbolt there cause it can hit big fliers? It misses Tombstalker and Exalted Angel, and will still only be a 1-of. I would think that Incinerate would be more generally useful.

I'm actually kinda jealous of you guys playing in developed metas. There's no way I can even think of putting PoP in my main because so few people here use nonbasics. In fact I'm actually considering taking it out of the side as well, though I know that's blasphemy.

I'm starting to wonder what more can be said of Burn that hasn't already. We use Fireblast and 16 bolts. Add Magma Jet, a set of creatures, and PoP. Sprinkle with Flame Rift and Flamebreak. The other 4 cards or so are just flavoring, and pretty much anything halfway decent can be used without really affecting the deck too much. Burn seems to generate a lot of posts without much progress (even when I'm not making a fool of myself). :tongue:

Anyway, has anyone tested Shard Volley? I just realized I won't be able to use it this weekend cause Morningtide's not yet legal. Stupid prereleases giving me interesting commons. :wink:

Running 18 lands, im happy with 2 shard volley.
More volleys than that and you find yourself needing more lands, which sucks too much once you hit topdeck mode.

@throst What are your 18 lands like?

I started at 18 basic Mountains as my only land along with 4 Fireblasts, and often felt strapped for more land. I'm now bringing in 3 Barbarian Rings and 2 Shard Volleys and going to 20 land total (removing a Mountain). I don't believe that this dilutes the deck too much because the new lands are threats (and smooth out the mana as a side effect). Note that you can sac Rings to Volleys! However, I go from having to sac 8 land to cast my deck to saccing 13 land with only the addition of 2 lands, so this may be still too tight. I won't get a serious chance to test until the weekend after this, when I go to a larger venue and can actually use Volleys.

I'm taking the following side into the very random meta this week. Any suggestions?

4 Price of Progress
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Shattering Spree
2 Boseiju (This slot is quite suspect... I'd rather run the above all as 4-ofs)
2 Pyroclasm (Lots of Tribal, lots of critters, perhaps this should be Cave-In though)
1 Dragon Claw (I wish I owned a couple more... Burn is pretty popular around here)

I'd love to be able to add Pithing Needles, but it's so hard to predict what will actually be useful... someone might show up with a powered legacy deck full of duals and fetches, or there might be 3 janky Elf decks. Of course, I could build my sideboard when I see who's there. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Interesting list, L.E.T.C. Is the Thunderbolt there cause it can hit big fliers? It misses Tombstalker and Exalted Angel, and will still only be a 1-of. I would think that Incinerate would be more generally useful.

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What! Where be my Incinerates at?!?!? Sorry, that was just a mistype. Like I said though, the one of Thunderbolt is to give me something extra to side out PoP when its a dead card.

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but what are people's thoughts on Leyline of Lightning?

Granted, it's not very quick, but throughout a game, it probably deals more damage than a single Lava Spike. Perhaps 2 Leyline of Lightning might work out.

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Originally Posted by Shawon

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but what are people's thoughts on Leyline of Lightning?

Granted, it's not very quick, but throughout a game, it probably deals more damage than a single Lava Spike. Perhaps 2 Leyline of Lightning might work out.

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Sorry, but that's serious sh*t.
-if you don't have it in your opening hand, it's utterly useless. the definition of a dead card that you'll be unable to cast and won't do anything when you'll have cast it.

-if you have it in your opening hand, the effect is still incredibly bad. I don't want my bolts to turn into a 4 for 2, especially if i have to spend one card for it. You want me to use one card so that by spending 3 additional mana, i can do 3 damage ?? just give me the worst burn spell ever printed instead, it will be better than this !

Here's a list I just made

//LAND - 18
[4] Wooded Foothills
[4] Bloodstained Mire
[8] Mountain
[2] Barbarian Ring

//Creatures - 4
[4] Grim Lavamancer

//Spells - 38
[4] Fireblast
[4] Lightning Bolt
[4] Chain Lightning
[4] Lava Spike
[4] Rift Bolt
[4] Flame Rift
[4] Magma Jet
[4] Price of Progress
[4] Incinerate
[2] Fork

Deck Total - 60

//Sideboard
[4] Red Elemental Blast
[3] Pyroclasm
[4] Pyrostatic Pillar
[4] Tormod's Crypt

This isn't playtested, and I'm fairly new to legacy, I usually play extended.

Criticisms? Comments?

Is 4 Grim Lavamancer bad? I'm worried it just gives their removal an outlet as the only real permanent other than land that I'm running.

Fetchlands? They seem good for thinning as you only want to draw 2-3 land all game, but I don't see them in anyone else's lists really.

Thanks in advance.

@Yourshoe: Yeah, Grim Lavamancer is sub-optimal for the very same reason you provided. I would like to recommend Keldon Marauders in that slot. See how it works for you. About the fetches, I am not a big fan because it makes Goyf one bigger and the life loss adds up especially with the Flame Rifts. I hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup

About the fetches, I am not a big fan because it makes Goyf one bigger and the life loss adds up especially with the Flame Rifts. I hope this helps.

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Also fetches give Stifle something to do, and 10 real lands in the deck against land destruction or Stax is horrible. Also, the thinning provided by fetches is negligible, because you'll only draw a few per game, and there's not much difference between a 57- and a 60-card deck. Also, turns your $40 deck into a $150 deck. =P

Edit: Screw it all, I'm going in tomorrow with my incomplete burn deck. Wish me luck!

EDIT:

7 players, double elimination. 1 each of Mono-G Elves, Gb Elves, Burn, Angel Stompy(-ish) WW, Ichorid Combo, Kithkin WW, Random jank.
Maindeck was www.curby.net/pub/temp/burn.htm with

+1 Mountain
-2 Barbarian Ring (don't own em yet)
-2 Shard Volley (not legal)
+3 Incinerate

Round 1 vs Gb Elves

First game was a lot of bolts. It ended up 11/5 with a bolt in hand. I did poor math and bolted him to 2, not realizing that with pumpers he could swing for the win on the following turn. Game 2 he lets a Keldon Marauders through (yeay!) and a Bolt+Bolt+Fireblast finish makes us even. I draw no sweepers. Game 3 starts with a Pyroclasm in hand but he's just making little tokens and crap so I'm not afraid. Bolts take it home.

Sided: +2 Pyroclasm, -2 Sulfuric Vortex (he had no life gain).
Result: zero losses after a 2-1 round

Round 2 vs Angel Stompy(-ish)

I'm matched up with my girlfriend playing a heavily pro-red deck with Jitte in the main and Worship in the side. In the first game Magma Jet lets me set up a nasty finish. On my last turn, Suspended Rift Bolt, Bolt, and Flame Rift takes it home. Game 2: I decide not to side in the Sprees, and Jitte eats my face. Game 3 it's down to 7/6. She has 3x 2/* pro-red guys on the board and no equipment, so I can survive one attack. Unfortunately I have 6 in the yard, 2 Mountains and 1 B-Ring in play, and two Flame Rifts in hand. A Mountain or Fireblast would have given me the game, but it's not meant to be. I go down to 1, draw Incinerate, and she wins at 3 life.

Sided: None
Result: one loss after a 1-2 round

Round 3 vs Ichorid

Great, I didn't expect any graveyard decks so I didn't pack Crypts. Now I'm one loss away from the end and facing a combo deck whose slowest goldfish equals my fastest. First game I get him to 9. I try to determine when's a good turn to cast Keldon Marauders, but I do it one turn too late, and can't remove Bridges in time. I guess the right answer is "cast the Marauders ASAP!" Second game I add Pyroclasms for his tokens and decide to try REBs to counter Breakthrough, but he pulls off the win with 3 life left.

Sided: +2 Pyroclasm, +4 REB (probably a mistake), -6 something
Result: Eliminated after a 0-2 round

Notes: I'm pretty sure Crypt would give me game against Ichorid, but I'm probably not going to add them just because it's the only grave-based deck in our meta. Plus, he has Needles in the side and a Spree+Crypt combo in the first 2 turns is anything but certain (22% without mulligans). If you have 3 land between your hand and in-play and 0-1 Fireblasts, cast Magma Jet early! You won't want to see any more land in that game.

The Land Problem Without Baubles, it's really hard to use Barbarian Ring. 7*3 is already lethal damage, and we don't have anything else but burn spells going into the yard. I'm hoping Shard Volleys can speed up my Thresh. I'd hate to use Needle Drop (bad card) to help Ring (suboptimal card). 19 Land is alright with my current curve, but I think 20 will be good when I add Rings and Volleys. It is still not recommended to keep a single-land hand. By dropping Mogg Fanatic we're down to 16 1-drops, and even if we draw 6 Bolts and a Mountain, we're doing damage too slowly to be able to pull off a win against any decent deck. Better to have 2 land to begin with and be able to cast Magma Jet to manage any possible future flood. My ideal game sees me drawing and dropping 3-4 land. Decks packing a lot of 3-drops like Flamebreak, FotBH and Browbeat will probably want to see even more.

Aside: My girlfriend went on to beat Ichorid 2-1 and take first in the tourney. Morningtide came out of the side to "win target game." Hurray!

That's probably just a stupid idea of mine, but I thought of adding bosium strip after taking a look at the CaNG combo deck using it.
Granted, 3 mana to play and 3 more to activate is slow. That being said, you can then re-use all your burn spells, meaning you never run out of fuel (you can even start to do some board control if need be).
I guess the deck doesn't really want to give up speed though...

Yeah, Bosium Strip has the same problem as Keldon Megaliths and Cursed Scroll in this deck. You need 3 land to activate your trick, and an average of 1 to play the spell you drew or play the spell in your grave. Getting all of this quickly enough is hard in a deck with no mana acceleration, few lands, and little library manipulation.

General question: How often do Flame Rifts bite you in the ass against fast aggro? 4 damage for 2 is good, but ouch. :tongue: A few folks on mtgsalvation are taking them out for less painful options, though they're necessarily slower. I think I'll keep my build rather suicidal, with Shard Volleys, Barbarian Rings, Flamebreaks, Flame Rifts, etc. I'll probably end up tying my matches and not advancing worth crap. :rolleyes:

I'd like to come back to the Needle Drop. You cant't throw it at your oponent just to draw the card, but there are other options.

It's an instant. You can wait and if he damages himself durig his turn your time has come. If he'll not do you the favour or you cant't just wait till the next turn comes just throw it at yourself. Just use a Barbarian Ring targert yourself with a Marauder or tap a Land for Mana without using it or maybe he'll do the job .....

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Originally Posted by josch

I'd like to come back to the Needle Drop. You cant't throw it at your oponent just to draw the card, but there are other options.

It's an instant. You can wait and if he damages himself durig his turn your time has come. If he'll not do you the favour or you cant't just wait till the next turn comes just throw it at yourself. Just use a Barbarian Ring targert yourself with a Marauder or tap a Land for Mana without using it or maybe he'll do the job .....

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What? Why would you target yourself with a Marauder and not target your opponent? Dealing damage to yourself just to draw a card seems like a bad idea, tap my Ring, take one, Needle Drop myself, take another one...2 damage and a :r: to draw a card...sounds like Street Wraith will do the same thing... O and I think that mana burn is loss of life not damage so burning for one won't work to well...

I'm hoping to do some serious goldfishing with Burn to get an idea of how it acts, at least in the absence of disruption. This is mostly to test the interaction of my unusually high landcount (20) and the introduction of Shard Volley. I'll be tracking the following variables. Any suggestions?

Initial Hand
Starting Land
Starting Bolts
Mulligans

End of Game Analysis
Kill Turn
Lands Seen
Lands Scryed Away
Thresh Turn
Total in Yard
Overkill Damage (20 - opp's ending life)

I might also keep track of how often I scry away certain spells, but I'm probably already overanalyzing. =)

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

I'm hoping to do some serious goldfishing with Burn to get an idea of how it acts, at least in the absence of disruption. Any suggestions?

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A few extras that might be helpful to track would be...

1) Any card/s that prevent a turn 3 kill.
2) Any card/s that prevent a turn 4 kill.
3) Any card/s that solidify a turn 4 kill.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

I might also keep track of how often I scry away certain spells, but I'm probably already overanalyzing. =)

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It seems, to me, that keeping track of the spells you scry away would be more valuable than tracking the Overkill Damage.

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Originally Posted by redmage

A few extras that might be helpful to track would be...

1) Any card/s that prevent a turn 3 kill.
2) Any card/s that prevent a turn 4 kill.
3) Any card/s that solidify a turn 4 kill.

It seems, to me, that keeping track of the spells you scry away would be more valuable than tracking the Overkill Damage.

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I don't really understand what you mean by the first part. Since I'm not running anything like Ensnaring Bridge, what could prevent a kill? If you're talking about mana flood, that's already taken into consideration given the other variables. On the other hand, I'm pretty much always going to wish that everything that isn't a Lightning Bolt or Fireblast was a Lightning Bolt or Fireblast. Could you elaborate?

I guess the overkill thing is not strictly needed, but if for example the deck goldfishes to 19 regularly, it might be sufficient in a fetchland/suicide-heavy environment. For example, the missing point of damage was often mentioned in arguments against Magma Jet. Burn is sufficiently explosive that this is hard to evaluate, so I might just leave it off.