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Transmute Artifact could potentially find a home in the deck. The only issue that I see with putting it into my build is that I am very artifact light and it would require a complete rebuild of the deck. If anyone else is willing to test it out that would be amazing and post results here.
I don't really like Transmute Artifact. If you want to play in such a way, play Welder.
Anyway, on a Dutch forum we were discussing about red/white splash and I got convinced of the inclusion of Orim's Chant. Against aggro it's a (weaker) Time Walk, against combo it could win games and against control it makes you go off safe (play it in your upkeep).
With Orim's Chant mainbord, you should play UW I think with 4 Enlightened Tutors and 4 Orim's Chant. The only problem will be Chalice of the Void on 1. Then you are doomed :)
What are your thoughts about this idea?
You could always Trinket for EE and set it on 0 to blow up any Chalices.
I've tried almost every color combination of this deck in the past week or so. There's just so many options. I really like the excel of the "Stompy" mana bases, but I can't deny the W splash for E.Tutor and the toolbox 1 of's you can run MD and SB with her.
My latest venture is a UB controlish version with Bob, Shackes, lots of permission, and two alternate wincons. One being Stifle-Naught and the other a single copy of Oona.
In a UW deck with Enlightened Tutors, what would you run: 4 Trinket Mage of 4 Fabricate? I'm now playing the mages, but I suppose the Fabricates would be better, because you can search for the painter..
The reason Painter is always linked with REB / Pyroblast in vintage is because a lot of crazy blue spell up there. But in Legacy, though Threshold Counter Balance always stay on top, but I suggest this deck 'd still fit if those spells replaced by their cousins (BEB / Hydroblast) and then Painter will choose :r: as they come to play.
1st thing, they are blue cards, can be pitched for FoW.
2nd, You only need to run 2 colors :u: and :b:, not 3. .
3rd, it'll be easier to blast Burn, Goblins, Dragon Stompy, mana acceleration from Belcher, or almighty crusher in Aggro Loam.
Thought?
1. You should be running more than enough blue cards for Force of Will. I run 8 blue cantrips, along with Force, Daze and Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by moOnsteak
2. For my list, 3 colors is very hot because I run Engineered Explosives. My manabase isn't stressed; I'm able to run a comfortable 3 basics.
3. My list runs Counterbalance, Daze, and maindeck Engineered Explosives. Burn isn't a problem with an active CB. Daze and Force of Will can handle explosive Belcher starts, and EE can take out any tokens. The only real threat Dragon Stompy poses is Chalice at 2, which is again conveniently removed by Engineered Explosives.
So against those decks, BEBs seem like overkill. Goblins can be raced game 1 if you can stop Lackey/Vial. Red brings Pyroclasm from the board, which is huge against Goblins/Zoo, which are decks I find that Painter Combo has trouble with.
Against decks packing counters, REBs are amazing at punching combo pieces through the counterwall. Taking out Counterbalance (usually while it's on the stack, hitting it after it lands is usually done by EE) for R is so clutch. They're decent against Storm combo, hitting cantrips (TES) or stopping Mystical Tutor -> Orim's Chant (FT).
Those are my thoughts. It seems Painter set on U is just better for you because of Force and the third color helps out a lot.
Jaynel, is your third color still black? I've been back and forth between w and b again and again. On the one hand I love Bob. Besides the obvious reasons he's the perfect target to draw their early removal from PS. I'm also digging the white toolbox, but I find I usually don't need to Tutor up the pieces to win. I just find them with Confidant/cantrips. For that matter, there have been situations where I didn't even need both pieces of the combo to win. I played a game last night where I was able to lock them under CB and beat them down with a lowly Confidant.
And I agree, MD EE is pretty awesome.
I'm still running black, mainly because Dark Confidant is the absolute nuts. He draws removal and, if he sticks around, flips nothing but 0, 1, and 2 cc spells. Like you said, I find cantrips and SDT with 8+ shuffle effects are enough to dig for both pieces of the combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Versus
What cards to put in your sideboard against aggro and aggro-control decks?
How many copies of Grindstone have you found is good to have? I've been trying with 2 lately, but I'm thinking of putting the third
Yeah, Confidant really shines here. I've actually dropped red for a little while. While I completely agree with you on reasons why REB and Pryroblast are great, I've been finding that straight U control is working also. I basically replaced my blasts with Counterspells and just running it Ub. I may go back to three colors though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaynel
holkenborg: Pyroclasm is good board sweeper as well as EE on 2 (in most cases) against aggro. If you running the black splash, Engineered Plague for Goblins or BEB/Hydroblast. Propoganda could be good as well.
Skullclamping: I'm only running two, but I'm also running Trinket Mages. It's really the only "bad" card in the deck so I tried to keep it at a minimum. I'd say it depends on your amount of Tutor effects and also how you want to win. If you'r main goal is to get the two pieces on the table ASAP and activate, then full playsets of both I'd say. If you plan on slow rolling it in a control shell, then you have the time and the resources to find the pieces later in the game.
That's how I would play the deck:
4 Painter's Servant
4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Aether Vial
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosive
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grindstone
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Island
SB:
2 Engineered Explosive
1 Pithing Needle
3 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Pyroclasm
3 Extirpate
3 Echoing Truth
Intuition is imo too slow.
- You need a turn to cast Intuition (if you cast it EoT of your opponent, you can't cast anything before.).
- Daze mostly means you can cast Intuition just Turn 4.
- If you search for AK's or Painters and your opponent counters your searched cards, you will have much worse chances to win.
(And the most player's will counter your searched spell, if they know that you don't play Loam)
- You need to pay mana for the searched Spell as well = 2 Turns for 1 tutored card (mostly 5 Mana at all).
I even think about cutting Aether Vials for Thoughtseize.
Thoughtseize is just so strong. And if you play Thoughtseize and Stifles you mostly don't want to drop a first turn Vial because Thoughtseize or a stifled Fetchland is that much better than the Vial.
Without Intuition you are also able to cast Creatures AND Solutions/Disruption.
This deck would be played a lot more controlish.
You try to disrupt your opponent (Stifle, Wasteland will help alot) and THEN if you have a window open, cast your Spells to gain advantage.
To disrupt your opponent is much better in the early game, then to gain advantage and let your opponent gain advantage as well.
The only creature which I would cast early is the Painter...and only if I have some Blasts in my hand to cover him and to have more 1cc Hardcounter.
EDIT: 1 Dreadnought for the Mage would shine here. So you have 1 Crypt, 1 Grindstone and 1 Dreadnought which are not always good.
Crypt is useful most of the times, Dreadnought just with Stifle and Needle...it's just a nuts card which is mostly useful ;)
So I top 8ed at a 26 people event with the following list:
4 Servant
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Trinket Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 REB effects
3 Counterbalance
1 Grind Stone
2 P. Dreadnought
1 Sensei's D. Top
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Terminate
1 Vedalken Shackles
(39)
7 Blue Fetchies
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Wasteland
2 Academy Ruins
(21)
SB
1 T. Crypt
1 REB
1 EE
1 Needle
1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Extirpate
3 Pyroclasm
4 ?
"I really dig running a deck full of non-random must-counter-cards :laugh:
The deck is strong, no doubt - but obv. weaker in a meta with few blue decks. I ended up losing 2 games due to mull mistakes against aggro loam and affinity.
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Thoughts on the MD?
klaus, that's almost identical to my list give or take a Shackles here and a Top there. Also, like I said, I'm using straight counterspells and bypassing the REB's for now.
How are the Wastelands treating you though? I'd think running more basics and another fetch would be better, no?
What were your matchups?
And for the open sidebord slots, I'm going to try Divert for it increases your matchup against the harder opponents with hand disruption (black).
Let me ask about Jaya Ballard, Task Mage. It's strange for me that she wasn't even mentioned in the thread (the search didn't show it to me). I can admit that she's not good for the deck because she's slow, but it has to be argumented.
So can you guys explain?
You've already explained yourself...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordenkaynen
She's slow. She requires you to untap with her in play. She doesn't win the game. In order to get a single Vindicate out of her she requires 3 cards, 2 turns and :3::r::r::r:
She isn't even worth mentioning because we all know how bad she is in non-Limited competitive play (yes, if you open her at a Time Spiral Draft you first picked her, no she isn't competitive in any Constructed or Eternal Format). So why bother?
I have to say, this thread is getting closer and closer to EPIC's list that we developed 2 months ago.
Great. Have a cookie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/5...bitewebgm1.jpg
Lol :D