Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
[Decklist]
Consider adding in more Blue cards for Force of Will. 15 is a tad bit too dangerous because there may be occasions where you're on the play and you're being comboed out.
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I haven't really read much of the thread but I don't understand why lists are only running 1 Crucible of Worlds. I would think that a card that builds your mana up would be a good thing for a control deck. It also recurs your manlands against Wasteland.
But it does nothing against decks like Vial Goblins. Against Landstill, even if you have Crucible in play, you're only using it to increase your land count, not limit your opponent's option. Against Ichorid and Dragon Stompy, you're just wasting your time.
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I don't understand the point in running less than 3 Wasteland, especially with only 1 Crucible. However, I believe that a black splash is stronger than running Wasteland.
You have CoW which can be fetched by Cunning Wish -> Enlighten Tutor. Wasteland can be fetched by Tolaria West.
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Thoughtseize is a very strong compliment to countermagic strategies. The ability to know the opponent's hand, especially under a Standstill, is very strong. The knowledge of knowing what your opponent is playing is invaluable. Lifeloss is largely negated since Thoughtseize is 1cc spot removal anyway. It improves almost all of your matchups.
What if the opponent plays his own Top? Your Thoughtseize has just become weaker. What if your opponent topdecks a Goyf because he casted a Ponder the previous turn? What if you want to punch a certain card through? Thoughtseize is less likely to be better than Counterspell in that described situation.
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Vindicate blows up whatever you need to blow up. As a control decks, 3cc spot removal isn't bad when you can destroy a problematic permanent. It's not really necessary maindeck but it is very strong out of the sideboard.
But you already have Engineered Explosives...
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Yea, I'm really high and didn't even realize that, thanks.
That means I have to drop Top then and that sucks. Well...
-3 Top
-1 Decree
+2 Ponder
+2 Fact or Fiction
Guess that means the sideboard needs -4 Counterbalance +4 Blue Elemental Blast.
19 is close enough, though I normally prefer around 22. There's nothing else I'd really rather remove... maybe the Conclave for the 3rd Ponder but I don't know about that.
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But it does nothing against decks like Vial Goblins. Against Landstill, even if you have Crucible in play, you're only using it to increase your land count, not limit your opponent's option. Against Ichorid and Dragon Stompy, you're just wasting your time.
What? I thought Vial Goblins ran Wastelands and Ports? Why would a mana production card be bad against a deck that uses mana denial? That makes absolutely no sense and Crucible recurs a Factory after Warren Weirding. Last time I checked, recurring 3/3's on defense is pretty good against Goblins.
I don't understand how Ichorid or Dragon Stompy make it so that the deck doesn't want to have land drops every turn. Your still a control deck, you still want land drops. Recurability (aggro-wise) isn't necessary vs everything but consistent land drops are.
You're arguments aren't making much sense to me.
Are those decks you listed even huge metagame threats anyway? I realize they are both strong decks but unless you're in a dominant Ichorid/DS metagame, I'm not sure what the problem is. Extirpate postboard hoses Ichorid and Thoughtseize answers DS.
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You have CoW which can be fetched by Cunning Wish -> Enlighten Tutor. Wasteland can be fetched by Tolaria West.
3 + 1 + 3 for Crucible via Cunning Wish does not do it for me. The wishboard is extremely slow with a trade in lack of power for versatility. I can respect the wishboard in something like Tog where it quickens the goldfish via Berserk but I'm not a fan of Cunning Wish Landstill. Not only that, why run only 2 Cunning Wish if you're even gonna run Cunning Wish at all. If you're bastardizing your sideboard, it better be worth it. I'd never run less than 3 Cunning Wishes. The biggest strength of it I see is grabbing SB Extirpates and possibly Stifle, where it's not even worth paying 2UB for Stifle or Extirpate. Access to Krosan Grip is the only thing I can think of making Cunning Wish better and this deck isn't even green. If you want more Decree's, run more Decree's.
Wasteland being fetched by Tolaria West means you run 2 Wastelands and one of them costs you 1UU. That's not good to me at all. Either you commit to Wasteland with at least 3 or you don't run it all. Maybe 3 Wasteland +3 Stifle and I'd agree with Wasteland, but I'd never run [2] Wasteland and 1 Crucible.
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What if the opponent plays his own Top? Your Thoughtseize has just become weaker. What if your opponent topdecks a Goyf because he casted a Ponder the previous turn? What if you want to punch a certain card through? Thoughtseize is less likely to be better than Counterspell in that described situation.
Right, and I'm still running 3 Counterspells. There are situations where Thoughtseize is infinitely better than Counterspell. I'm not even gonna list those situations because it's irrelevant. Both cards are useful at different stages of the game. What Thoughtseize does is worth the 4 spaces for it.
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But you already have Engineered Explosives...
Engineere Explosives doesn't answer everything and I sill have 2 more EE in the board. The deck has stack control cards and permanent removal in the board. What would be better than Vindicate? That you actually need?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
Yea, I'm really high and didn't even realize that, thanks.
That means I have to drop Top then and that sucks. Well...
-3 Top
-1 Decree
+2 Ponder
+2 Fact or Fiction
I never said Top was bad. I tested Top quite a bit in Landstill. It actually helps with the card quality in the deck.
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19 is close enough, though I normally prefer around 22. There's nothing else I'd really rather remove... maybe the Conclave for the 3rd Ponder but I don't know about that.
Cut Conclave for Tolaria West. Heck, even Outpost is better than Conclave.
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What? I thought Vial Goblins ran Wastelands and Ports? Why would a mana production card be bad against a deck that uses mana denial? That makes absolutely no sense and Crucible recurs a Factory after Warren Weirding. Last time I checked, recurring 3/3's on defense is pretty good against Goblins.
Yes, but if you run a decent mana base, Port and Wastelands shouldnt even hurt you. Remember that all decks in this format were designed with mana denial in mind. Right now, Landstill has 15 White sources and 16 Blue sources.
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I don't understand how Ichorid or Dragon Stompy make it so that the deck doesn't want to have land drops every turn. Your still a control deck, you still want land drops. Recurability (aggro-wise) isn't necessary vs everything but consistent land drops are.
Yes, it's a control deck, but you want cards that do something in this match-up.
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Are those decks you listed even huge metagame threats anyway?
Yes, they are huge metagame threats. Dragon Stompy is losing in popularity, but Ichorid on the other hand is becoming more of a force. The addition of Unmask has made it even more dangerous post-board.
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Extirpate postboard hoses Ichorid and Thoughtseize answers DS.
Extirpate doesnt hose Ichorid because they might Unmask/Therapy it out of your hand. Thoughtseize only works 50% of the time in this case if you're on the play. If Dragon Stompy is on the play, then they'll drop Chalice, 3Sphere, or a Moon effect.
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3 + 1 + 3 for Crucible via Cunning Wish does not do it for me. The wishboard is extremely slow with a trade in lack of power for versatility.
But the point of Landstill is to stall until you reach late game. From there, you use your superior manipulation skills to gain control of the game. So now you might ask me why it would matter because you should already be winning once you reach late game? The answer is simple, you already do a fine job surviving the early game. The format has gotten better at fighting mid-late game. It should be your job to gain control of the game and end it. Cunning Wish is good at this role because it has the potential to end the game or keep you from losing. Cunning Wish for E-Tutor for Humility can easily end the game. Sure, you made an investment of 8 mana, but you're dropping the Humility on Turn 5. Great, you won the game. Need life? Go for Pulse of the Fields. If your opponent is going to mana burn himself just to keep you from using Pulse, then DoJ and kill him.
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I can respect the wishboard in something like Tog where it quickens the goldfish via Berserk but I'm not a fan of Cunning Wish Landstill.
Even Wishing for Berserk is slow. Why are you claiming that it's good in Tog then? To be honest, I cut Wishes from my Tog a long time ago because all it needed was the Loam Engine, Intuition, some Heavy Draw, 5 board sweepers, and like 14 counters.
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Not only that, why run only 2 Cunning Wish if you're even gonna run Cunning Wish at all. If you're bastardizing your sideboard, it better be worth it.
So running cards that can be played maindeck is bastardizing it? Seriously, fetching cards like ETutor which you side in like crazy, Pulse which you also side in like crazy, Return to Dust which you can side in every once in awhile, Slaughter Pact which you side in occasionally, BEB/FoF which you side in frequently. Also, you run 3 Extirpates, which you also side in frequently.
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I'd never run less than 3 Cunning Wishes. The biggest strength of it I see is grabbing SB Extirpates and possibly Stifle, where it's not even worth paying 2UB for Stifle or Extirpate.
I dont think many players care about Stifle. Extirpate, however, is amazing. Even for 2UB, it's a good price because now it can be pitched to FoW and still make card advantage somehow. It's also an instant, so blowing mana isnt that big of a deal.
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Access to Krosan Grip is the only thing I can think of making Cunning Wish better and this deck isn't even green. If you want more Decree's, run more Decree's.
Done. It's had 3 Decrees for awhile. Also, if it wanted Green for SB Grips, you can cut a Delta and an Island for a Savannah and a Tropical Island.
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Wasteland being fetched by Tolaria West means you run 2 Wastelands and one of them costs you 1UU. That's not good to me at all. Either you commit to Wasteland with at least 3 or you don't run it all. Maybe 3 Wasteland +3 Stifle and I'd agree with Wasteland, but I'd never run [2] Wasteland and 1 Crucible.
Here's the thing; I (and a plethora of others) have never like Wasting early. We usually use the singleton Wasteland to Waste Volrath's Stronghold... that's about it. We dont like mana denial. What we want the deck to do is survive and slowly take control of the game. Stifle/Wasteland is also quite speculative, so not sure if we want to run those cards.
As for Tolaria West, you can agree to disagree on this one. I usually dont care what others think of it. I run it because it grabs Academy Ruins, Factory, EE, and that random Wasteland. It's amazing because it doesnt need to grab Wasteland, it just adapts to the situation.
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Right, and I'm still running 3 Counterspells. There are situations where Thoughtseize is infinitely better than Counterspell. I'm not even gonna list those situations because it's irrelevant. Both cards are useful at different stages of the game. What Thoughtseize does is worth the 4 spaces for it.
I just dont like the idea of fetching Black so early in the game. Usually, you fetch Tundra early in the game.
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Engineere Explosives doesn't answer everything and I sill have 2 more EE in the board. The deck has stack control cards and permanent removal in the board. What would be better than Vindicate? That you actually need?
It answers most things better than Vindicate can. EE can at least remove Counterbalance. Vindicate, even with a CC of 3 might be countered when played against ITF.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
19 is close enough, though I normally prefer around 22. There's nothing else I'd really rather remove... maybe the Conclave for the 3rd Ponder but I don't know about that.
What? I thought Vial Goblins ran Wastelands and Ports? Why would a mana production card be bad against a deck that uses mana denial? That makes absolutely no sense and Crucible recurs a Factory after Warren Weirding. Last time I checked, recurring 3/3's on defense is pretty good against Goblins.
I don't understand how Ichorid or Dragon Stompy make it so that the deck doesn't want to have land drops every turn. Your still a control deck, you still want land drops. Recurability (aggro-wise) isn't necessary vs everything but consistent land drops are.
You're arguments aren't making much sense to me.
Are those decks you listed even huge metagame threats anyway? I realize they are both strong decks but unless you're in a dominant Ichorid/DS metagame, I'm not sure what the problem is. Extirpate postboard hoses Ichorid and Thoughtseize answers DS.
3 + 1 + 3 for Crucible via Cunning Wish does not do it for me. The wishboard is extremely slow with a trade in lack of power for versatility. I can respect the wishboard in something like Tog where it quickens the goldfish via Berserk but I'm not a fan of Cunning Wish Landstill. Not only that, why run only 2 Cunning Wish if you're even gonna run Cunning Wish at all. If you're bastardizing your sideboard, it better be worth it. I'd never run less than 3 Cunning Wishes. The biggest strength of it I see is grabbing SB Extirpates and possibly Stifle, where it's not even worth paying 2UB for Stifle or Extirpate. Access to Krosan Grip is the only thing I can think of making Cunning Wish better and this deck isn't even green. If you want more Decree's, run more Decree's.
Wasteland being fetched by Tolaria West means you run 2 Wastelands and one of them costs you 1UU. That's not good to me at all. Either you commit to Wasteland with at least 3 or you don't run it all. Maybe 3 Wasteland +3 Stifle and I'd agree with Wasteland, but I'd never run [2] Wasteland and 1 Crucible.
Right, and I'm still running 3 Counterspells. There are situations where Thoughtseize is infinitely better than Counterspell. I'm not even gonna list those situations because it's irrelevant. Both cards are useful at different stages of the game. What Thoughtseize does is worth the 4 spaces for it.
Engineere Explosives doesn't answer everything and I sill have 2 more EE in the board. The deck has stack control cards and permanent removal in the board. What would be better than Vindicate? That you actually need?
To add on to what AntiAmerican said:
Why are you running ponder in Landstill? Early game you don't want to be looking for land drops, because believe it or not, cantrips do cost mana. That is mana you should be keeping open for counterspell and swords and what have you. The only reason brainstorm is included is...well yeah, you know already.
I'm not gonna really bash crucible too much, because I still run it as a 2 of, but the examples you listed aren't really the best. Crucible just rocks because it helps you get to the lategame by ensuring land drops, which really gives you the inevitability in the match, not to mention nasty shit like recurring wastelands, manlands, and destroyed lands.
Just as AntiAmerican said, Landstill doesn't try to gain tempo in the early game by using stifles and wastelands aggressively, wasteland is there to be tutored and to be recurred when necessary. Landstill is more about versatility, hence the wishboard and tolaria west. Versatility is important when trying to survive the early game, as well as locking the opponent out of the lategame. For example, if extirpate cost 2:u: :b: , no one would ever play it, but when you are playing against a loam deck game 1, you will be damn sure of paying 2:u: :b: for extirpate. The same thing goes for paying 8 mana for humility or 6 mana for krosan grip (or for a 1:u: :u: wasteland).
The thing about vindicate is that Landstill can't afford 1 or 1 trades (I know about swords to plowshares, but if you compare the two you are a fool), not to mention to whole sorcery-speed thing. Landstill tries to get favorable trades, like wrathing a few creatures away (deed works just as well here), or engineered explosives-ing whatever's on the board. Another awesome thing about engineered explosives is the possibily for recursion (also made twice as likely with a tolaria west in your deck).
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
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Why are you running ponder in Landstill?
Well, I'd rather run Top but I needed blue sources for FoW. I'd still rather run 2 Ponder over 2 Cunning Wish. You say that Tolaria West and Cunning Wish are for the early game but I don't understand how that works when both of them cost 3cc and are only tutors (meaning the tutored spell still needs to be played). If you're grabbing E Tutor, you're essentially paying 4cc and relying on 2 tutors to get the card you want plus now it's actually card disadvantage. 8cc for Humility plus the card disadvatage doesn't sound that attractive. I'd rather run Intuition + engine cards for all that. Even Survival doesn't run E Tutor in most accepted builds and Survival is more important there than Humility or EE in here. I might run E Tutor if I ran Counterbalance MD, which I don't. Cunning Wish is versatile but I'm not a fan. I think it is highly lacking for the cost and effect. Maybe I'm just biased because of the power level difference between it and Intuition, I dunno.
Maybe Ponder isn't the correct card choice. I'm not going to add Cunning Wish in it's place, though. I'd probably just up the FoF count to 3 and maybe add a Counterspell or something so I'm still maintaining the blue count. Whether or not I like or dislike it is going to be dependant on trying it first.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
[QUOTE=Hanni;252492]Well, I'd rather run Top but I needed blue sources for FoW. I'd still rather run 2 Ponder over 2 Cunning Wish. You say that Tolaria West and Cunning Wish are for the early game but I don't understand how that works when both of them cost 3cc and are only tutors (meaning the tutored spell still needs to be played).[quote]
The cards you use for early game are Force of Will, Counterspell, Swords to Plowshares, and Standstill. Cunning Wish is for midgame.
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If you're grabbing E Tutor, you're essentially paying 4cc and relying on 2 tutors to get the card you want plus now it's actually card disadvantage. 8cc for Humility plus the card disadvatage doesn't sound that attractive.
Okay, paying 7 mana to draw 7 cards of Intuition/AK isnt attractive. Paying 6 mana for Wildfire isnt attractive. Paying 10 mana for 7 soldier tokens isnt attractive.
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I'd rather run Intuition + engine cards for all that.
Keep in mind it requires more effort to set-up your Intuition engine and more vigilance to keep your engine going compared to dropping a tutored for Humility.
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Even Survival doesn't run E Tutor in most accepted builds and Survival is more important there than Humility or EE in here. I might run E Tutor if I ran Counterbalance MD, which I don't.
Wrong; Survival doesnt run ETutor because of the printing of Pithing Needle; it also doesnt run Survival because the newer builds function are designed to function without Survival. If Needle hadn't exist, a deck like ATS would very well right now.
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Cunning Wish is versatile but I'm not a fan. I think it is highly lacking for the cost and effect. Maybe I'm just biased because of the power level difference between it and Intuition, I dunno.
I dont care if you think Cunning Wish sucks, because to be honest, I care more about practice than theory. Theory is only there to reinforce and compare results during practice. If you feel that Cunning Wish is weak, then don't run it. The pioneer of the deck dropped Cunning Wish in favor of Krosan Grips a long time ago. I'm still running it because I value versatility over raw power.
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Maybe Ponder isn't the correct card choice. I'm not going to add Cunning Wish in it's place, though. I'd probably just up the FoF count to 3 and maybe add a Counterspell or something so I'm still maintaining the blue count. Whether or not I like or dislike it is going to be dependant on trying it first.
There's the option of Mana Leak and additional FoFs.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I wasn't referring to Intuition/AK because AK is horrible. Intuition + Loam is alot stronger, IMO, than Cunning Wish + E Tutor. It's also stronger than Tolaria West. I don't see how requiring more effort matters... if you're going to pay 8 mana, you might as well get a recursion engine out of it that is difficult to answer. Though I wasn't suggesting Intuition for this deck because this isn't the deck for it.
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Wrong; Survival doesnt run ETutor because of the printing of Pithing Needle; it also doesnt run Survival because the newer builds function are designed to function without Survival. If Needle hadn't exist, a deck like ATS would very well right now.
This deck is designed to function without Humility/Crucible. Not sure what you're getting at here aside from the Needle argument which doesn't make much sense since I think Krosan Grip is a bigger factor and affects both equally.
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I dont care if you think Cunning Wish sucks, because to be honest, I care more about practice than theory. Theory is only there to reinforce and compare results during practice. If you feel that Cunning Wish is weak, then don't run it. The pioneer of the deck dropped Cunning Wish in favor of Krosan Grips a long time ago. I'm still running it because I value versatility over raw power.
I never said it sucks, I said I don't like it in here. And I'm doing exactly that, I'm not running it. So I don't understand why the idea is being labled as incorrect.
I think running Mana Leak is inferior to the 4th Counterspell. This deck has more than enough ability to access the UU needed for Counterspell rather than run a worse card. Additional FoF's sounds good though.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
Well, I'd rather run Top but I needed blue sources for FoW. I'd still rather run 2 Ponder over 2 Cunning Wish. You say that Tolaria West and Cunning Wish are for the early game but I don't understand how that works when both of them cost 3cc and are only tutors (meaning the tutored spell still needs to be played). If you're grabbing E Tutor, you're essentially paying 4cc and relying on 2 tutors to get the card you want plus now it's actually card disadvantage. 8cc for Humility plus the card disadvatage doesn't sound that attractive. I'd rather run Intuition + engine cards for all that. Even Survival doesn't run E Tutor in most accepted builds and Survival is more important there than Humility or EE in here. I might run E Tutor if I ran Counterbalance MD, which I don't. Cunning Wish is versatile but I'm not a fan. I think it is highly lacking for the cost and effect. Maybe I'm just biased because of the power level difference between it and Intuition, I dunno.
Maybe Ponder isn't the correct card choice. I'm not going to add Cunning Wish in it's place, though. I'd probably just up the FoF count to 3 and maybe add a Counterspell or something so I'm still maintaining the blue count. Whether or not I like or dislike it is going to be dependant on trying it first.
But Humility, while it sticks, is CA, much like CotV is.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
I wasn't referring to Intuition/AK because AK is horrible. Intuition + Loam is alot stronger, IMO, than Cunning Wish + E Tutor.
Those were examples. Also, the Loam engine is extremely mana hungry. You're paying 3 for Intuition, 2 for Loam, 1-3 + potential land drop for like 3 cards per turn, assuming you dont want to start dredging away your deck.
Humility can potentially end the game, but if it gets removed, it's not the end of the world. Like if you Intuitioned for Land, Land, Loam, you cast Loam, they counter, eot cast Cunning Wish for Extirpate targeting Loam. Compare that to a Countered Humility; it's not he end of the world for you. Your deck functions without Humility because it was originally built with 4 WoGs and can still function of 3 WoGs. You have card draw, not an engine. Your deck isnt centered around a certain card. You're good.
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It's also stronger than Tolaria West. I don't see how requiring more effort matters... if you're going to pay 8 mana, you might as well get a recursion engine out of it that is difficult to answer.
Because being Graveyard reliant sucks? I know that's why Landstill hates having to run things like Enchantments, Creatures, or Artifacts maindeck; because it opens up with your opponent being able to use their removal. Sure, we have Humility; but post-board, they'll have to board in worthless cards like Krosan Grip against you. All to what? Remove a Humility? Great stuff Landstill does.
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This deck is designed to function without Humility/Crucible. Not sure what you're getting at here aside from the Needle argument which doesn't make much sense since I think Krosan Grip is a bigger factor and affects both equally.
You just said it; this deck is designed to function without Crucible or Humility. It's just that Humility is a threat; it stalls long enough for you to win. The point is that Humility is sort of like a Tempo card, as is Standstill; you're trying to slow the game down and move into late game where you're favored to win. Also, using this maneuver can help you actually beat decks like Vial Goblins. You can be it with just that standard configuration alone, but then you have to set up and counter Ringleader then Extirpate them, and even then, you have to risk saving counters while being bashed in the face by a Fanatic and a Matron in order to save a counter for SGC.
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I never said it sucks, I said I don't like it in here. And I'm doing exactly that, I'm not running it. So I don't understand why the idea is being labled as incorrect.
Well said. But some people can say [insert subject here] sucks by just typing in an argument.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Can we maybe get some reasoning from the guy who played 'RichterStill' (Enlightened Tutor and Oblivion Stone over Wrath and Fact/Decree)? I know this has already been discussed, but since it still is played (and with apparently not too bad results), I wondered if we could get some input from the player.
What is Oblivion Stone tech against? Dragon Stompy, Enchantress, Staxx? Why is it played over Nevinyrral's Disk (which would only hit your Humility and Crucible)?
@Hanni's List: That list has 62 cards if I'm not miscounting (I counted cause I really didn't see how you fit Thoughtseize in). While I don't like 'Seize - requires to fetch B early, lifeloss, has to replace standard slots -, the idea to run MD Top with SB Counterbalance against Burn/Combo/Thresh(?) deserves to be considered in my opinion.
But what to cut from an already tight MD? If you start from a DIF-like list you could start by cutting the 3rd Decree (Top helps you find winconditions), but from there it gets hard... maybe you would have to cut the Wishes to be able to fit Counterbalance in your board, but I wouldn't want to do that. Improving good (Thresh) and not really prevalent (Burn, Storm) matchups instead of bad ones (Loam, Ichorid) ... guess that would be a metachoice, dependant on how big combo/burn is. And, when it concerns Combo, whether the Meddling Mages you cut for CB are just as good. So maybe test a list for said metas like:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Plains
3 Island
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Humility
3 Wrath of God
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
Board:
4 Counterbalance
4 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage (?)
3 Blue Elemental Blast (?)
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
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Can we maybe get some reasoning from the guy who played 'RichterStill' (Enlightened Tutor and Oblivion Stone over Wrath and Fact/Decree)? I know this has already been discussed, but since it still is played (and with apparently not too bad results), I wondered if we could get some input from the player.
What is Oblivion Stone tech against? Dragon Stompy, Enchantress, Staxx? Why is it played over Nevinyrral's Disk (which would only hit your Humility and Crucible)?
Normally I play Clemens Build, but I wanted to test the Tutor List.
MD Tutor (most of the time) as Humility 3/4, but if you draw one with a Humility in play search Crucible, Standstill, O-Stone or EE.
O-Stone+Ruins (same with Disk, but slower in the late game)
O-Stone+Humility (not better then Wrath, but better then Disk)
O-Stone won me g3 against DS, he had about 3 Crtitters, Chalice@1 and 2, Blood Moon and Magus. I had a Story Circle in play with 3 W Sources.
I Topdecked O-Stone and won the Game for 8 with Factory in play.
Post Board you have 3 MD Tutors for GY Hate and Halo.
In the matches I lost Wrath, Stone or Disk wouldn't make any real difference, Landstill: normally O-Stone and Tutors should be better then Warths, but in Turn 4 or 5 my hand was "StP,StP,StP, Standstill, Standstill, Standstill" and draw no single Factory g1 against Crucible Waste with multiple Factories, g2 Halo@Factory but I scoop because I cant finish him in 5-10 Turns.
Affinity: O-Stone is a Turn Slower but kicks Vials, Drums and Winter-Orb (that card really sux). For the Germany Legacy Championship Ill play "Energy Flux" SB, because I expect some Affinity Decks (Extended Decks).
The Loam g1 I won by Turn 2 letting B-Wish resolve on Loam, T3 Wish on Extirpate and then Counter Wishes and Dreams + Humilty. Post Board Humility+Halo on Crusher
I expected more Stompy and Enchantress.
I think I played the FoF 2 times and boarded them out against most of the Decks, same for Jace.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Hello my friends , the other day I played a torunaments by here in Spain , the first game I faced to a landstill 4 colured piloted by DukeLio a great player of landstill and then I noticed 2 main points:
1) loam is superior to crucible not only by its recurrency, as well , a single played life from the loam provides us 3 extra cards and makes their brainstorm authentic Ancestral recall
2) pernicius on its own handles 1. Mishras 2.Standstill 3.Decree while our wrth are quite useless.
this 2 issues makes this mirror match up slithgly inferior even my opponent had more extirpate than me in its sideboard.
Because, there are lots of ladstill by here in my meta I'd like to develop a Landstill that is strong in a Mirrors.Landstill infested meta.
The conclusion on how this archetype must be developed is that must go on the Zui Moshowsitz thread , I mean with E.Tutor, Counterbalance, Moat,seseis...
With this archetype we can face easily whatever kind of landstill , because the C.B-senseis engine is the best stuff to face any kind of control-combo. All agree?
I propose this archetype:
1 Eternal dragon
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance // we want this card as soon as possible ,if we have too
//many for Fows cost
1 Oblion Stone // I needed more 3 cost cards and I found it ,this card is tricky
//and its plenty of utility we 'll get rid of annoying stuff leaving our
//counterbalance and moat in play, what do we want else?
1 Scroll rack // i find this card a must as 2cc in a build with c.b its like a
//permanent brainstorm making the c.b targets much more versatile
1 Pithin needle // for decrees, and mainly E.E
1 Humility // stops creatures in a way
1 Moat // stops creatures in the other way
3 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives // in here i'm not sure if to take out 1 more...
2 Sensei's Divining Top // 2 enough + brainstorm+ E.Tutor + rack
23 lands
1 Academy Ruins
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
60 cards
Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
2 Stifle
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Pithin nedle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 chill
1 Energy flux
1 Arcane laboratoire
1 seal of cleansing
1 mindslaver
other options are:
1 Aura of silence
2 decree of justice
x spellsnares
x Blue elemental blastNevinirral disk
Well I need advice, suggestions about this archetype
Some points: You notice that this build dont run Drcre, simple, because playing decree we will have to taapout out and this is somethig we eill Ever NEVER do, this issue makes the decree quite a lot expensive to cast, we simply will kill with mishras and F.Concleve.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Hello my friends , the other day I played a torunaments by here in Spain , the first game I faced to a landstill 4 colured piloted by DukeLio a great player of landstill and then I noticed 2 main points:
1) loam is superior to crucible not only by its recurrency, as well , a single played life from the loam provides us 3 extra cards and makes their brainstorm authentic Ancestral recall
2) pernicius on its own handles 1. Mishras 2.Standstill 3.Decree while our wrth are quite useless.
this 2 issues makes this mirror match up slithgly inferior even my opponent had more extirpate than me in its sideboard.
Because, there are lots of ladstill by here in my meta I'd like to develop a Landstill that is strong in a Mirrors.Landstill infested meta.
The conclusion on how this archetype must be developed is that must go on the Zui Moshowsitz thread , I mean with E.Tutor, Counterbalance, Moat,seseis...
With this archetype we can face easily whatever kind of landstill , because the C.B-senseis engine is the best stuff to face any kind of control-combo. All agree?
I propose this archetype:
1 Eternal dragon
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance // we want this card as soon as possible ,if we have too
//many for Fows cost
1 Oblion Stone // I needed more 3 cost cards and I found it ,this card is tricky
//and its plenty of utility we 'll get rid of annoying stuff leaving our
//counterbalance and moat in play, what do we want else?
1 Scroll rack // i find this card a must as 2cc in a build with c.b its like a
//permanent brainstorm making the c.b targets much more versatile
1 Pithin needle // for decrees, and mainly E.E
1 Humility // stops creatures in a way
1 Moat // stops creatures in the other way
3 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives // in here i'm not sure if to take out 1 more...
2 Sensei's Divining Top // 2 enough + brainstorm+ E.Tutor + rack
23 lands
1 Academy Ruins
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
60 cards
Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
2 Stifle
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Pithin nedle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 chill
1 Energy flux
1 Arcane laboratoire
1 seal of cleansing
1 mindslaver
other options are:
1 Aura of silence
2 decree of justice
x spellsnares
x Blue elemental blastNevinirral disk
Well I need advice, suggestions about this archetype
Some points: You notice that this build dont run Drcre, simple, because playing decree we will have to taapout out and this is somethig we eill Ever NEVER do, this issue makes the decree quite a lot expensive to cast, we simply will kill with mishras and F.Concleve.
I like it. I do think 3 wastelands is a bit much, cut to 1 and use more basics. I would also prefer a 3rd ee to the oblivion stone. What I honestly dont dig in this build is the dragon. With the tutors you could run a good artifact creature like masticore or something, but I guess that would make you even more light on land. All in all it looks good.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Yes, perhaps its time to look again at the tutor version.
What I have found from my experience with the deck:
Enlightened tutor is powerful meanwhile yo run counterbalance. It is not worth it otherwise. (since not only does it bring the situational bombs e.g moat, humility but it becomes a hard counter)
There are times where counterbalance is not a good card: Stompy decks generally
Once established the balance-top engine, the deck has difficulties dealing with the early threats. That forces you tu use WoG that might harm your counterbalance curve.
You cannot rely exclusively in moat/humility since now decks are prepared to deal with it. Moat prevents damage and it enables you to have more powerful wincons rather than decree (which is powerful in itsel but does'nt suit the deck, whereas Humility shuts important creature ability's (goblins) but actually they might overcome you
Implementing counterbalance in the mana base is quite hard (and I have been quite unsuccessful at it) From a start I would'nt play wasteland anymore and use factorys exclusively (not conclaves) to support standstill.
The wincon for this decks is completely undefined, E. Dragon decree hoofprints, e.angel? I think this is quite a weak point,since counterbalance is not always decisive in the long -time I suggest the quickest win-con e.g angel
I would play 3 runed halo sideboard and 1 mB. A seal of cleasing or a O.Ring aswell
I would'nt consider this deck a landstill deck really since standstill is not you priority.
With this archetype we can face easily whatever kind of landstill , because the C.B-senseis engine is the best stuff to face any kind of control-combo. All agree?
I am not really sure this is true though, if your wincons are slow as they are, they'll actually overcome it.
At this point I think it is agreed that the Cunning UWb list is the most powerful, but i'll be glad to work in this list if you can give any new ideas to it.
P.D. Scroll rack is interesting but you already have brainstorm to do this unexpected.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
There are a few reasons why I don't like the inclusion of ponder in landstill.
1. You are a control deck not a aggro control deck. On average ponder does not dig deep enough to actually find a utility card you need to gain a dominate position on your opponent.
2. You also don't have that efficient clock that threshold has either so casting a ponder will be inefficient compared to something like FoF or standstill.
3. Ponder isn't a land even though it can usually find one but making a land drop is not the samething. Constant land drops are of vital importance for landstill.
4. Consistent library manipulation can be good in landstill but it isn't as needed since brainstorm is good enough for that role. You also have shuffling/deck thinning effects in the form of E. dragon and fetchlands which becomes more vital when resolving a FoF or a standstill. Constant deck manipulation is less utility useful in that case.
5. As the later stages of a match unfolds your more then likely rather have a back breaking draw spell then a cantrip.
6. Cunning wish adds significantly more uncharted avenues to landstill then ponder can even hope. Since wish brings flexiblity and has multitude of roles while ponder is one dimensional.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I absolutely agree with what Mister Agent has to say here...
I do not think ponder deserves to be in this deck, as you do not need or want cantrips, you want mass draw/CA to maintain control of the game... ponder is a good card, but it is not good here.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mister Agent
1. You are a control deck not a aggro control deck. On average ponder does not dig deep enough to actually find a utility card you need to gain a dominate position on your opponent.
I disagree. If a Fact or Fiction can dig through 5 cards to find what you're looking for, then Ponder can dig through 4 cards to find what you're looking for. So Ponder does dig for dominant position over the opponent; whether it may be digging for your DoJ, WoG, or Fact or Fiction.
Quote:
2. You also don't have that efficient clock that threshold has either so casting a ponder will be inefficient compared to something like FoF or standstill.
I don't think the fact that Landstill doesnt have a clock makes Ponder bad; I think it's because it isnt card avantage, it's sorcery speed, and it's only card advantage when it can find you that particular card (WoG, FoF). This philosophy of BSS's use of Impulse (which is Ponder, but you know what I mean) is to use Impulse to find FoF against control, Powder Keg against aggro, and win conditions for your finisher.
Quote:
3. Ponder isn't a land even though it can usually find one but making a land drop is not the samething. Constant land drops are of vital importance for landstill.
I think Ponder warrants testing because it can find lands. I for one think that Ponder would be awesome in a deck like Landstill after testing a deck that is reminiscent of Walamie's Operation Dumbo Drop.
Quote:
4. Consistent library manipulation can be good in landstill but it isn't as needed since brainstorm is good enough for that role. You also have shuffling/deck thinning effects in the form of E. dragon and fetchlands which becomes more vital when resolving a FoF or a standstill. Constant deck manipulation is less utility useful in that case.
It finds lands, answers, and sets-up your next turn. I'm considering playing a set of Ponders in place of 2 FoFs and 2 other cards.
Quote:
5. As the later stages of a match unfolds your more then likely rather have a back breaking draw spell then a cantrip.
You can play a Stroke of Genius/Haunting Hymn in the SB to be wished for. You use Ponder to set up your Stroke/Hymn so that it resolves.
Quote:
6. Cunning wish adds significantly more uncharted avenues to landstill then ponder can even hope. Since wish brings flexiblity and has multitude of roles while ponder is one dimensional.
Wish is good for versatility. Ponder is good for efficiency and optimization.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
well , in first game we have absolutly all the puzzle to handle Standstill decks , thts my main goal:
1) we have c.b + senseis + S.R + Braintorm + Tutor to handle all their threats except E.Explosives
2) The main reason I run 1 single neelde is that this card handles our main trouble :E.E thats why I prefer not to play too many no more than 2 I think
3) in the second game for sure we'll face Krosan and extirpate and things like that , thats why in here Meddling mage is the best card we can fit in this archetype naming cards like the before one named and Extirpate
4) another point I AGREE with Zui is taht Moat is one of the best Secrets kept in legacy , because not only moat stops agro ,gobbos, etc ( nedle will be for the one taht tapping deals damage) stops as well decree tokens and if we are supposed we will play a nelde naming E.E , which we have in base too , we can't handle decree tokens unless we play moat.
Respect to the win conditions I really prefer to put in a win condition , not only the F.Conclave, that can be or Artifact or Enchantment , and it must have some kind of evasion. I propose :
bitterblossom :( well have to add 1 more color, it provides 1 flying creature each turn, one of the best option in my opinion)
masticore: not fan of this one, not flyes
Platinum angel : I like this , is artifact , flyes and we are inmortal unless it dies, and with a c.b in play we for sure won't die.
About scroll rack is a tutor option of 2 cc for c.b and as I said its like a permanent brainstorm.
Impresions?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
I disagree. If a Fact or Fiction can dig through 5 cards to find what you're looking for, then Ponder can dig through 4 cards to find what you're looking for. So Ponder does dig for dominant position over the opponent; whether it may be digging for your DoJ, WoG, or Fact or Fiction. .
Ponder only filters cards while fact or fiction is a powerhouse in card drawing. Besides fact or fiction thins out the deck more considerably then ponder can ever do so then you will have a much better chance of finding what you need.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
I don't think the fact that Landstill doesnt have a clock makes Ponder bad; I think it's because it isnt card avantage, it's sorcery speed, and it's only card advantage when it can find you that particular card (WoG, FoF). This philosophy of BSS's use of Impulse (which is Ponder, but you know what I mean) is to use Impulse to find FoF against control, Powder Keg against aggro, and win conditions for your finisher. .
Yeah that's what I essentially meant. Considering landstill is still viable because of its strong draw engine and ponder does not have any part in that.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
The main issue that ponder has with this deck, is that we usually want to be playing the reactive role early-midgame... which means taping lands on your own turn is bad... meaning, you will have to wait on your draw spell for a later turn (for fear of what the opp might do)... I think the draw spells should stay as they are, between FoF, brainstorm, and standstill...
I really do not see what the discussion is... ponder just isn't good enough for landstill, end of story.
