[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

It isn't that necessarily dislike seeing Jitte in any particular matchups, but rather they don't do as much as I'd like compared to the current maindeck configuration. As it is the maindeck works very fluently in essentially all aspects of its gameplan; early acceleration, disruption, card advantage, etc. By adding Jitte into the maindeck, regardless of what you're cutting, some part of that becomes unbalanced, which I found I didn't like. The aggro matchup may improve a bit, but the control matchup may go down a little. There was some inconsistencies to my gameplan while running Jitte maindeck and it occasionally interfered with the deck's game 1 engine, where Sylvan Messenger is at its best. It just wasn't a good fit for me personally as I have a particular playstyle with the deck, and I've felt it's done better for me if I have the option to bring it in matchups where I know I'm going to want to see it as opposed to drawing it when I won't want to.

My take on Survival Elves:

// Lands
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle
4 [U] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
7 [9E] Forest

// Creatures
4 [US] Priest of Titania
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
4 [R] Llanowar Elves
1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
4 [EVG] Imperious Perfect
1 [JU] Anger
1 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 [10E] Elvish Champion
4 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger
1 [UD] Masticore
4 [M10] Elvish Archdruid

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [PT] Natural Order

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [LE] Caller of the Claw

I cut Wirewood Symbiote a while back and haven't missed it. With 10 lords, Elves do not need as much protection as they used to. Cutting them also helps you maximize your Messangers.

I also think that Vanquisher is absolutely horrible for this deck. You don't need anymore beef with all the lords. That it trades with Goyf isn't so hot given how fast and explosive this elf deck is. You want to limit your deck to cards that acellerate mana, lords, and your toolbox cards. Vanquisher doesn't fill a role at all.

I figured I'd write a report you guys after I top8'd at Eli's on Saturday in my first large event with the new list. I took pretty extensive notes so it'll be pretty detailed.

For reference, here is what I ran:

Epic Elves

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Priest of Titania
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Wasteland
4 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Loaming Shaman
2 Tsunami
2 Absolute Law
2 Umezawa's Jitte


I'll discuss the decklist and sideboard and how things went after the report.


Round 1: Combo Elves

G1: He mulls to 5, and I keep a 7 with Symbiote, Therapy, Priest, 2 Archdruids, and 2 land. I open with a Symbiote, and he does as well. I draw a Llanowar, miss on a Therapy, then flashback losing the Symbiote to hit a Natural Order. His turn 2 he plays Elvish Visionary and passes. My turn I miss a land drop and play Priest. He draws an Archdruid and plays it, then passes. My turn involves playing Messenger flipping Ranger, Champion and a Llanowar, then playing out all of it and swinging for near lethal. He tries to go off the following turn with a Glimpse and friends but ends up being short mana and dies.

I don't remember what I sideboarded out really in any matchups, but I do remember what I boarded in.

+2 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Gaddock Teeg

G2: I open a hand with 1 land, Llanowar, Priest, Archdruid, Jitte, Perfect, and Ranger. Yeah, nuts. We both play a turn 1 Llanowar, and he has turn 2 Archdruid. I play turn 2 Ranger and Priest. Turn 3 he plays another Archdruid, then Summoner's Pact for Chameleon Colossus and plays it. My turn I end up playing a Champion, Archdruid, Perfect, Jitte and equip it, then use the counters to kill an Archdruid. He can't kill me, and dies the next turn.

2-0
1-0

Round 2: Progenitus Threshold

G1: I open a hand of 1 Land, Wasteland, 2 Llanowar, Progenitus, Sylvan Messenger, and Perfect on the play. I open with a Llanowar. He plays Tundra, Ponder. I waste the Tundra and play another Llanowar and attack. He plays a land and plays Top. I play Perfect and attack for 4, and his turn he gets Plowed and plays a Tarmogoyf. I don't hit a 4th mana source but draw a Ranger, which gets FoW'd pitching Progenitus. He plays a Hierarch, then swings with the Goyf. I draw a land and play Messenger which resolves, flipping 2 lords and a Priest. He swings again and plays a Rhox War Monk, and next turn I manage to resolve both an Archdruid and a Priest. He swings again and puts me down to 6, but my next turn I draw Sylvan Messenger which chains into another one, and I end up attacking for 16 with 4 forestwalking 4/4 Archdruid, Ranger, and 2 Llanowars.

+3 Krosan Grip, +2 Tsunami

G2: I open a decent hand with 2 land, Symbiote, 2 Messenger, Natural Order, and Priest. He opens with a Hierarch. I play the Symbiote, but he has a StP for it and plays a Ponder. I draw and play the Priest, and he has a Path to Exile for it eot and has a turn 3 Natural Order. I miss my land drop and can't get there in time to resolve my own Natural Order.

G3: I open a hand of 2 land, 1 Llanowar, Tsunami, Therapy, Progenitus, and Ranger. I open with the Llanowar, and he plays a Ponder. My 2nd turn Therapy misses but he's holding garbage, and I play the Ranger and attack. He plays his 2nd land and plays a Pridemage, and I follow it with an Archdruid. He plays a fetchland and passes, and I, fearing Natural Order, play Tsunami killing his 2 lands when he has an uncracked fetchland. He doesn't draw another land before I can Therapy again for a Natural Order, and I overwhelm him with lords.

2-1
2-0

Round 3: Ichorid

G1: I'm on the play and open a hand of Savannah, 2 Llanowar, Champion, Messenger, Priest, Ranger. I open with a Llanowar, and he plays a PImp. My 2nd turn involves a Priest, Ranger, and another Llanowar. He dredges and hits a Narcomoeba and triple Therapy and a Bridge, and manages to hit my Champion and Messenger. I draw an Archdruid and swing. He dredges and hits another Bridge and get an Ichorid and Narcomoeba in play, then Dread Returns for a GGT that is a 10/10 and has 8 zombie tokens. He ends up killing me while I'm one blocker short of surviving with lethal on the table.

+3 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Loaming Shaman, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +2 Umezawa's Jitte

G2: He kills me turn 2, and I didn't have any hate.

0-2
2-1

Round 4: The Epic Elves (nearly card-for-card mirror)

G1: I'm on the play with a hand of Llanowar, 2 land, 2 Therapy, Symbiote, and a Perfect. I open with a Llanowar, and he has a turn 1 Priest thanks to ESG. Next turn I Therapy him 3 times and rape his hand. His following turn he has an archdruid and a Llanowar. I draw and play a Ranger and Perfect, and he plays a Champion and we're off to the races, swinging for 6. I draw and play another Perfect and swing for 12. He swings for 6, and uses Symbiote to return Champion. I then draw Champion and swing in.

+2 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Gaddock Teeg

G2: I open a hand of 2 land, Llanowar, 2 Natural Order, Gaddock Teeg, and Ranger. We both play a turn 1 Llanowar, and he has a turn 2 Archdruid. My turn 2 I draw a land and play the Ranger. His turn he has turn 3 Order, and I respond with a turn 3 Order of my own. His turn he plays some mana elves, and on my turn, preparing to play my 2nd Natural Order, I draw the fucking Progenitus. I end up watching him go crazy with Messengers and Symbiote while I stare at the Progenitus in my hand, spooning with the Natural Order.

G3: I open a hand of Land, Llanowar, Priest, Ranger, Champion, Messenger, Messenger. Nuts. My turn 2 Priest ends up tapping for 6 casting the first Messenger which flips another Messenger and 2 Llanowars, and then my other 2 yield me 3 more lords. I kill him the following turn.

2-1
3-1

Round 5: Zoo

Deciding round of my tournament, and I get paired against Zoo. Awesome.

G1: We both mulligan to 5, and I keep a hand of Land, Symbiote, Therapy, Champion, Archdruid. I Therapy him on the play naming Grim Lavamancer, with him revealing 2 Pridemage, Kird Ape, Nacatl, and a Plains. Hm. He plays the Plains and says go. I draw a land and play Symbiote, flashing back to hit the Pridemages, and then notice he drew a fucking Grim Lavamancer for the turn. Hilarious. He draws and says go, I draw a land and get Archdruid out. He draws a Plateau and plays Lavamancer. I draw a Wasteland and hit Plateau, then play Champion and swing for 3. He draws a Taiga and plays Nacatl. I draw a Therapy and hit the Kird Ape I knew he had, swing for 3. He draws a Lightning Bolt, kills my Champion, then attacks. I draw nothing and he's able to kill all my guys and swing.

+2 Pithing Needle, +2 Absolute Law, +2 Umezawa's Jitte

G2: I open a hand with 2 land, Llanowar, Priest, 2 Perfect, and Progenitus. I open with a Llanowar and it gets Bolted. My turn 2 Priest doesn't get killed as I watch him play a Pridemage. My turn 3 I draw a Ranger, and play both Perfects. He plays another Pridemage and passes. I draw an Archdruid and swing hard, and he has no removal.

G3: I open a hand with land, 2 Wasteland, Llanowar, Priest, Natural Order, and Jitte. He opens with a Kird Ape. I play a Llanowar, and he Bolts it and plays another Kird Ape. I play a Priest, and he plays a Pridemage and swings. I untap, play my land, and Natural Order. He swings and I block the Pridemage and go to 9. I Wasteland both his red sources, then play a Symbiote and attack. He Path to Exiles my Symbiote, but doesn't have a way to deal me 9. After the game, he told me he had the Path for the Priest but wanted to wait to see if I'd play something better on my turn.

2-1
4-1

Round 6: ID into top8


Top8: Ichorid

Same Ichorid player from before.

G1: He mulligans to 5 and I'm on the draw with a hand of Land, Llanowar, Ranger, Ranger, Priest, lord, Messenger. He says go with no play, and I have a Llanowar. He doesn't have a play, and my 2nd turn I play both Rangers and the Priest. He plays LED and pitches his hand. I untap and play Messenger flipping 4 elves, play out all of them and then play Natural Order getting Progenitus. I had something like 70 power on the table.

Same sb as before

G2: I open a hand of Land, Llanowar, Wasteland, Jitte, Natural Order, Priest, and 2 lords. He plays a turn 1 PImp. I play a turn 1 Llanowar. He dredges and attacks, and an Ancient Grudge hits the yard. I draw a Relic, waste his land then play Relic. Naturally, he has the 2nd land in hand, and uses Grudge and I'm forced to blow Relic. I play a land then a Priest. He then plays Firestorm next turn and I don't have a chance.

G3: I end up mulling to 4 into a hand of Land, Symbiote, Champion, Archdruid. I play Symbiote and pass. He plays Coliseum, Careful Study. I draw a Llanowar and play it, and attack. He dredges and says go. I draw a lord (3 in hand) attack and say go. He dregdes and says go. I draw a lord (4) attack and say go. He dredges garbage and says go. I draw a lord (5) attack and say go. He returns 2 Ichorids and attack, and I make the mistake of returning Fyndhorn to untap Symbiote and block to get rid of his Bridge. Then he Therapies my Fyndhorn. Naturally, I draw the land next turn, but it's too late at this point and I can't come back as he dredges another Bridge and I can't cast anything. I had 3 turns to draw 1 or 17 more land, 2 Relic, 4 Priest, 6 Llanowar, or 3 Ranger, but couldn't manage to do it. Bad luck happens.


Overall, the deck performed incredibly well. It was very consistent all day, and aside from that awful game 3 against Ichorid in the top8, my draws were really good and I didn't have mana issues at all. Wasteland and Therapy were great all day, the Messenger engine worked very well and the deck was explosive.

At first I figured I wouldn't make any changes to the deck, but now looking at it I'm thinking I want to add the 8th Llanowar into the deck. I always want one first turn given the high number of 3-4cc spells. I'm looking at cutting the 4th Champion, which I feel is the weakest card in the deck. I'm also going to retool the sideboard a bit to fight Ichorid better, although I'm pretty sure that new trap card for Zendikar will be the best bet for us.

Thanks for report Di.
Normally I would have played yesterday on a rather large tourney, but due to a beer degustation the night before I didn't make it ... (which is a shame ...)

anyway, about adding another llanowar elf: I recently encountered a lot of chalice .. if they play it at 1, it screws us so hard ...
If you add another 1cc, that brings your total to about 18 1cc spells ... isn't that a bit too much?

so you ran into Ichorid 2 times and 0 times merfolk? that's too bad man, ichorid really sucks as a MU.

were you talking about the black trap card to remove cards in a graveyard? I have the impression that the new trap cards will givecombo-ish decks a hard time ...

Wow, so many decks running Progenitus...

So how about Entomb? Something like:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
1 Caller of the Claw
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Wirewood Herald
4 Sylvan Messenger

(Don't look at it as a proposed list, it's just a collection of ideas in list form.)

+ eight one-sided haste enablers
+ haste lets you combo out with Symbiotes, Priests, and Messengers -- it's not infinite without either Mirror Entity or Changeling Titan or something, but pretty broken nonetheless
+ Cabal Therapy and Entomb for Cabal Therapy
+ the above plus Wirewood Herald
+ Wirewood Herald and Survival plus Caller of the Claw
- vulnerable to Wasteland omg
- vulnerable to grave hate omg
- space is uncomfortably tight, the above is what seems like a basic shell and it's 42 cards already, so you'd have to make some innovative cuts (or cut some parts entirely) if you want to fit in more lands or other things
- per the above, it doesn't yet include anything to make your dudes evade or attack for more than 2 other than Archdruid
* (the ugly) figuring out which of Entomb, Survival, and/or Herald to add which toolbox bullets for

What exactly does entomb accomplish in that deck other than getting anger, which survival already does?

Not much. Feel free to run eight Survivals instead.

That is a terrible idea. The deck doesn't even run 4 Survival, let alone need 8 ways to get haste. We've already concluded that package wasn't worthwhile because it clogged the deck of bad draws, and adding 4 more will make it worse. Open a hand with double Entomb and you've basically mulliganed. Midgame topdeck it's weak. If you Entomb for a Therapy midgame and wiff blind, that's incredible card disadvantage. Not to mention in requires you to draw multiple fetchlands. It isn't Survival at all, it's just get Anger or bust. Given a majority of people have concluded haste is no longer necessary it certainly isn't worth trying to make that your entire gameplan.

I do atleast appreciate the honest effort to innovate, but cmon.

Is it just me or does this thread seem kind of dead? Hasn't ZEN given the elf deck any new cards that would be appropriate to add in? Are people still playtesting this deck and what's their conclusions?

I've been testing new decks since the Elf deck seems to fall behind more and more due to the fact that WotC doesn't print any new playable elves. Or am I totaly wrong?

I still like the deck very much, i just find that it comes 'second' to lots of decks and as such, is still a tier 2 deck ...

Especially in the latest build which use 3 colors, I find myself being manascrewed often and being subject to stifle more than i used to be.
I know steely resolve is inferior to absolute law, but running 3 colors for just 2 SB cards is not worth it for me. I'm even wondering whether the black splash is required; having a bayou in opening hand as the only land sucks very much (almost as hard as having an opening hand with a wasteland)...

concerning elves: M10 featured a superb new elf.
Zendikar contains not that much, in zendikar i guess goblins get the better win (the new lackey).
The only elf which I'm gonna order is the one which lets you play the top card of your library if its a land and lets you play 2 lands a turn. Not sure whether it will fit in this deck, but is a fun card.

What about playing mono green? something like this:

// Lands
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] Pendelhaven
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
9 [ON] Forest (4)

// Creatures
3 [M10] Elvish Visionary
3 [DS] Viridian Zealot
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
4 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger
4 [EVG] Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 [M10] Llanowar Elves
2 [EVE] Talara's Battalion
4 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
4 [M10] Elvish Archdruid
4 [LRW] Imperious Perfect
4 [9E] Elvish Champion


In my testing is better to have more business elves than others like fyndhorn so we improve the topdecks.

Now I'm testing heritage druid instead fyndhorn, I think a topdecked heritage is better than fyndhorn since in that turn you can use other elves to play cards in your hand.

Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

Is it just me or does this thread seem kind of dead? Hasn't ZEN given the elf deck any new cards that would be appropriate to add in? Are people still playtesting this deck and what's their conclusions?

I've been testing new decks since the Elf deck seems to fall behind more and more due to the fact that WotC doesn't print any new playable elves. Or am I totaly wrong?

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The never hasn't ever really received much attention due to various speculative reasons, such as the fact there's a stronger tribal deck in the metagame in Merfolk, it has a rough control and combo matchup, it's green (people don't like green for some reason), it lacks removal, etc. It's just one of those decks that has potential and power, but just isn't played often enough and people dismiss it outright. The fact that the deck hasn't seen ridiculous cards come out for it at the same pace as the other tribal decks could have something to do with it, but we did get Elvish Archdruid in M10 which imo breaks the deck in half.

Once people start playing it and it puts up results will it then get some recognition. Until then, it'll simply be labeled as a rogue tribal deck.

Quote:

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Especially in the latest build which use 3 colors, I find myself being manascrewed often and being subject to stifle more than i used to be.
I know steely resolve is inferior to absolute law, but running 3 colors for just 2 SB cards is not worth it for me. I'm even wondering whether the black splash is required; having a bayou in opening hand as the only land sucks very much (almost as hard as having an opening hand with a wasteland)...

concerning elves: M10 featured a superb new elf.
Zendikar contains not that much, in zendikar i guess goblins get the better win (the new lackey).
The only elf which I'm gonna order is the one which lets you play the top card of your library if its a land and lets you play 2 lands a turn. Not sure whether it will fit in this deck, but is a fun card.

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Technically you can get color screwed in any deck running three colors, so putting that exclusively on the deck isn't entirely necessary. Plus, the other colors are merely splashes, so even then getting colorscrewed is rare, but it happens. The deck is running just as many fetchlands as it did before and just as many as every other deck, so that argument can be thrown out the window. However, where other decks can get messed up hard with Stifle this can fight much better because it can run off a single land with all the acceleration it has.

To me, and the others who've picked up the direction I'm taking the deck, running the additional colors is a necessary evil. You technically can get away with only running two and cutting white and Absolute Law. If you're going to switch Law for anything, I'd prefer it be Dense Foliage as opposed to Steely Resolve. Although Foliage doesn't stop Jitte or Grim Lavamancer, it still keeps Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger intact. Although now that we discuss it, I'm debating if one of those replacements for Law might be better currently. I ran Law specifically to deal with Devastating Dreams, Firespout, Volcanic Fallout, etc, but I'm starting to see them decline, even in Zoo sideboards, so it's possible you can run something in place of them.

But cutting black imo is a mistake. The sole reason to run it in the first place was to improve our bad matchups to the point of winnable/even, because without it we're helpless to lose virtually all control and combo matchups barring an insane draw. The ability to have some sort of disruption is what gives this deck a fighting chance in the metagame, because the gameplan of just dropping elf after elf with nothing else to do won't cut it a majority of the time.

I'm trying the deck without black, as I feel that the upside to having therapy isn't really enough to compensate for getting color screwed. I'm putting in 2 jittes and 2 vanquisher's in their place.

Also, I saw that someone had included pendlehaven in their list, and I think that might be worth more testing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Di

The never hasn't ever really received much attention due to various speculative reasons, such as the fact there's a stronger tribal deck in the metagame in Merfolk, it has a rough control and combo matchup, it's green (people don't like green for some reason), it lacks removal, etc. It's just one of those decks that has potential and power, but just isn't played often enough and people dismiss it outright. The fact that the deck hasn't seen ridiculous cards come out for it at the same pace as the other tribal decks could have something to do with it, but we did get Elvish Archdruid in M10 which imo breaks the deck in half.

Once people start playing it and it puts up results will it then get some recognition. Until then, it'll simply be labeled as a rogue tribal deck.



Technically you can get color screwed in any deck running three colors, so putting that exclusively on the deck isn't entirely necessary. Plus, the other colors are merely splashes, so even then getting colorscrewed is rare, but it happens. The deck is running just as many fetchlands as it did before and just as many as every other deck, so that argument can be thrown out the window. However, where other decks can get messed up hard with Stifle this can fight much better because it can run off a single land with all the acceleration it has.

To me, and the others who've picked up the direction I'm taking the deck, running the additional colors is a necessary evil. You technically can get away with only running two and cutting white and Absolute Law. If you're going to switch Law for anything, I'd prefer it be Dense Foliage as opposed to Steely Resolve. Although Foliage doesn't stop Jitte or Grim Lavamancer, it still keeps Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger intact. Although now that we discuss it, I'm debating if one of those replacements for Law might be better currently. I ran Law specifically to deal with Devastating Dreams, Firespout, Volcanic Fallout, etc, but I'm starting to see them decline, even in Zoo sideboards, so it's possible you can run something in place of them.

But cutting black imo is a mistake. The sole reason to run it in the first place was to improve our bad matchups to the point of winnable/even, because without it we're helpless to lose virtually all control and combo matchups barring an insane draw. The ability to have some sort of disruption is what gives this deck a fighting chance in the metagame, because the gameplan of just dropping elf after elf with nothing else to do won't cut it a majority of the time.

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I personally love the deck... I've always liked green decks because they're often very straight forward and great at what they're intended to do, that is BASH FACE.
The trouble for me has been that when I playtested this deck, I did it against Storm combo with Ad N and Doomsday, Tempothresh/other blue gay decks and Aggroloam, which resulted in tons of losses... Unless I resolved a NO into Progenitus fast...

But I certainly love this deck, to feel the raw power of flipping elf after elf and putting even more into play... Always loved the "Elf-factor" of once resolved, they just keep coming.
I would gladly help you guys out in order to get this deck forward. I've even thought of piloting this deck in my upcoming tournaments. But it has to be more solid.

This is my current list:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Forest

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves (might bump it to 4 instead of a Priest of Titania)
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Progenitus


4 Natural Order
4 Cabal Therapy (it's nice to blind therapy and wreck their hand from goyf/force etc)

SB:
3 Absolute Law
4 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Woodfall Primus
3 Choke
1 Acidic Slime

The list is pretty straight forward... But I do miss the power of Vanquisher in the deck, sometimes deathtouch is out right needed against goyfs and other powerhoses... or even other elves that has a body (none that even exist).
I've even checked some NO targets that's worth playing... but nothing is as good as Progenitus obviously...

Would like some suggestions on how to make this better? Or is it just better to put it to sleep and get another deck? Hope not...

Your maindeck is only 59 cards. I imagine a land, presumably the 3rd Bayou, is missing. If that were the case it'd be exactly the same as the list I just ran at the last Eli's $1500 event where I top8'd. Although I'm tweaking it slightly now, it's still a solid list overall.

I'm still not impressed with Vanquisher though. It's got a big body and deathtouch is nice, but it's the weakest card in the deck if it's run at all. My turn 2 will have a better play 90% of the time because it'll either have a Priest, Lord, or Therapy action going on. Given the nature of the deck to swarm the opponent quite easily thanks to Messenger and 8 Priest effects, I haven't felt the need for removal to take down a Goyf. We can easily chump block, or use Symbiote + blocker to keep it at bay forever. Plus half the time they can't afford to attack because they'll be taking 10+ the following turn.

I'm just surprised people would think to changing the list outright after it just hit this stage in development. I literally went to this build just under a month ago, and had my first large event with it a week ago, with a top8 finish to boot. I just fail to see why it's being dismissed so quickly without people giving it a shot at tournament play.

The only thing I don't like about the list is the dropping of Survivals a day after I bought them. I've proxied the survival-less list a bit, and I agree that it is a lot more consistent and more well rounded.

And I've found that as big as vanquishers body is, I rarely played him even in the older mirror entity build as there was almost always something better in hand to play.

So, I apologize with not reading this thread much, but the deck has interested me. Mostly, I'm curious if it's possible to run 1-2 survivals. I feel like that they wouldn't clog up your hand, and you wouldn't need to run specific cards to abuse its power, since basically just being able to fetch messengers and lords seems good enough. You could also recycle progenitus if you really needed to.

Just a thought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Di

Your maindeck is only 59 cards. I imagine a land, presumably the 3rd Bayou, is missing. If that were the case it'd be exactly the same as the list I just ran at the last Eli's $1500 event where I top8'd. Although I'm tweaking it slightly now, it's still a solid list overall.

I'm still not impressed with Vanquisher though. It's got a big body and deathtouch is nice, but it's the weakest card in the deck if it's run at all. My turn 2 will have a better play 90% of the time because it'll either have a Priest, Lord, or Therapy action going on. Given the nature of the deck to swarm the opponent quite easily thanks to Messenger and 8 Priest effects, I haven't felt the need for removal to take down a Goyf. We can easily chump block, or use Symbiote + blocker to keep it at bay forever. Plus half the time they can't afford to attack because they'll be taking 10+ the following turn.

I'm just surprised people would think to changing the list outright after it just hit this stage in development. I literally went to this build just under a month ago, and had my first large event with it a week ago, with a top8 finish to boot. I just fail to see why it's being dismissed so quickly without people giving it a shot at tournament play.

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You are correct, a land is missing, more exact a Bayou. To be quite honest I tested one of your previous takes on the switch from SotF to black with Therapy and worked from that. Mainly adressing to the sideboard and testing the maindeck.
I think the maindeck runs pretty well except for some occational mana screw with wastes. The creature I feel have the least impact on the game are the playset of Elvish Champions. I've been thinking of a 10 lord list, decreasing the Elvish Champions to two and instead put in two Wren Run's Packmasters. They can simply win games and have a 5/5 body to go with, and the champion an elf isn't that bad if you have success in championing a Messenger. I'd rather have more beef than +1/+1 and forestwalk, since I think that the Champion is one of the least effective lords in the deck. But that's just my opinion.
The packmaster would satisfy my deathtouch desire aswell since wolves gets deathtouch and could easily take out those fatties that I simply hate. And even coming in at cmc 4, it's a bit hard for Counterbalance to hit it if I'm not misstaken?
The Priest of Titania and Archdruid could easily fuel the Packmaster with mana to produce these wicked wolves, since we have no other place to put our massive mana production.

And since you mention that you're suprised that people won't even try out the list without SotF, it may be because of the "versitility" that SotF gives the deck. I can only speak for myself, but I want tempo and I personally felt that the SotF engine was too slow and only worked well while the opponent had a bad hand or draw or if I myself was winning.
Against decks like Tempothresh, Zoo and other fast decks that can control you easily, it felt like a dead draw and was very unimpressive.

So suddenly this thread got alive :o) me like :o)

Anyway:
- regarding tournament play: I missed a big tournament a few weeks ago, but I would have played with Di's build ...;
- however, when I play 'locally', I play against some of the better players in Belgium, so i find it rather representative;
- my experience with the deck could be caused by the above (players are just better than me) or by my playing style and especially mulligan style. I find myself often really doubting about keeping a hand and I think I should more often mulligan, but to be honest ... I lack the balls ... :s
- the option of including 2 packmasters indeed looks good, I really liked the card in the survival build, however, we should be carefull about to many 3CC and 4CC creatures/spells. Having an opening hand with 2 land, 3 3CC and 2 4CC creatures is no good ...
- what do you guys do about chalice @ 1? I really hate it and there is not a lot to be done about it i guess (except SB, but that alreasy slows you down a lot). any thoughts?

@ Di, you said you were tweaking your deck after your top 8, care for any insights?

- I know the champions are the weakest of the lords, but I just like to be able to cast lord after lord after lord ... (when the first and second get countered or blown away you can just keep getting them out) I am afraid that when cutting 1 or 2 lords, we will loose some of that pressure.

but then again, I can be mistaken ...

Cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

So, I apologize with not reading this thread much, but the deck has interested me. Mostly, I'm curious if it's possible to run 1-2 survivals. I feel like that they wouldn't clog up your hand, and you wouldn't need to run specific cards to abuse its power, since basically just being able to fetch messengers and lords seems good enough. You could also recycle progenitus if you really needed to.

Just a thought.

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Survival itself wasn't the entire reason for clunky draws, it was moreso on Squee, Anger, and to a lesser extent Viridian Zealot (just a weak creature despite lord buffs). Opening a hand with either of those red cards essentially turned it into a mulligan, and they were terrible topdecks. Running only 1-2 of Survival won't really add much to the deck as you still need to add the additional red cards to supplement it, and it won't be consistent enough to have much of an impact. Worse of all, with only 2 Survival you'd have fewer outs to do anything with a drawn Squee or Anger, which was the issue in the first place. Right now it just doesn't offer anything that we don't already have to improve our bad matchups, so it isn't worth running.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

You are correct, a land is missing, more exact a Bayou. To be quite honest I tested one of your previous takes on the switch from SotF to black with Therapy and worked from that. Mainly adressing to the sideboard and testing the maindeck.
I think the maindeck runs pretty well except for some occational mana screw with wastes. The creature I feel have the least impact on the game are the playset of Elvish Champions. I've been thinking of a 10 lord list, decreasing the Elvish Champions to two and instead put in two Wren Run's Packmasters. They can simply win games and have a 5/5 body to go with, and the champion an elf isn't that bad if you have success in championing a Messenger. I'd rather have more beef than +1/+1 and forestwalk, since I think that the Champion is one of the least effective lords in the deck. But that's just my opinion.
The packmaster would satisfy my deathtouch desire aswell since wolves gets deathtouch and could easily take out those fatties that I simply hate. And even coming in at cmc 4, it's a bit hard for Counterbalance to hit it if I'm not misstaken?
The Priest of Titania and Archdruid could easily fuel the Packmaster with mana to produce these wicked wolves, since we have no other place to put our massive mana production.

And since you mention that you're suprised that people won't even try out the list without SotF, it may be because of the "versitility" that SotF gives the deck. I can only speak for myself, but I want tempo and I personally felt that the SotF engine was too slow and only worked well while the opponent had a bad hand or draw or if I myself was winning.
Against decks like Tempothresh, Zoo and other fast decks that can control you easily, it felt like a dead draw and was very unimpressive.

---

Elvish Champion is easily the weakest lord in the deck, no argument there. Forestwalk is decent but isn't gamebreaking compared to the abilities of the other two. I myself went down to 3 in favor of the 8th Llanowar Elf as I wanted more consistent turn 1 accelerants, and I've been liking it a lot. Wren's Run Packmaster is a solid replacement as well. It can be a bit slow because of its high casting cost and occasionally be a bad topdeck, but I can contest that it's amazing at virtually all aspects of the game. I'm a bit wary to run them as I've been trying to keep the curve as low as possible and these are more expensive than their replacements, but it's a solid card, much better than Vanquisher imo.

Your analysis on the weakness of Survival is also echoes my statements pretty much verbatim on the subject. I found it to be great in matchups that were in my favor or I was already winning, but in the tough, fast matchups it was far too slow to make an impact, thus I cut it in favor of a much faster, more aggressive card engine, and the deck's worked much, much better as a result.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Teumie

- my experience with the deck could be caused by the above (players are just better than me) or by my playing style and especially mulligan style. I find myself often really doubting about keeping a hand and I think I should more often mulligan, but to be honest ... I lack the balls ... :s
- the option of including 2 packmasters indeed looks good, I really liked the card in the survival build, however, we should be carefull about to many 3CC and 4CC creatures/spells. Having an opening hand with 2 land, 3 3CC and 2 4CC creatures is no good ...
- what do you guys do about chalice @ 1? I really hate it and there is not a lot to be done about it i guess (except SB, but that alreasy slows you down a lot). any thoughts?

@ Di, you said you were tweaking your deck after your top 8, care for any insights?

- I know the champions are the weakest of the lords, but I just like to be able to cast lord after lord after lord ... (when the first and second get countered or blown away you can just keep getting them out) I am afraid that when cutting 1 or 2 lords, we will loose some of that pressure.

---

The issue with mulligans and keeping potentially risky hands comes down to experience with the deck. It's just a matter of testing the deck enough to be aware of what you can do in certain situations, such as open a one-land hand, or open a hand without a turn one play, and calculate odds on what you can draw to help the situation out within the next 1-2 turns. If it isn't in your favor, then it's probably best to ship it back. Just play with the deck more and more to figure out exactly what to do in these situations, and it'll eventually come natural to you.

The Wren's Run Packmaster concern with CC is an issue I've mentioned a bit without it even in the deck. The deck can occasionally open a hand clogged with lords, Messengers, and Orders and be forced to ship it back because it won't have a turn 1-2 play. Adding another expensive threat can potentially add to this problem, but testing the deck a bit more will tell us what we can do. However I will add that in a build featuring Packmaster, I'd be inclined to add another mana source or two to make up for the additional weight in casting cost.

Chalice of the Void can be an issue, but it is really only strong against you if it's @ 1 on turn 1 when they're on the play. If they get it down before you have a turn 1 mana elf, then it could be an issue, but if you have one down before that, then you'll be ok because you can still hit 3 mana by turn 2. Otherwise, it can only be an issue if you happen to have a hand cluttered with 1cc cards, which can happen given 1/3 of the deck is them, but the important thing is that you still have access to 3cc. As long as you hit 3cc against a Chalice deck, you're in good hands. Plus if it's that big of an issue, you can always sideboard Krosan Grip to help deal with it.


Regarding my list changes, the only maindeck change I've really worked on and like is +1 Llanowar Elves -1 Elvish Champion. It frees up some of the lord-clogged hands, while giving me more consistent turn 1 elves. The power decrease from losing that elf is really minimal though, so it isn't something to worry about. The sideboard, as always, is still in a state of flux. It's changing around to tailor what I predict the metagame to be like, so I don't really have any comments regarding that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Teumie

So suddenly this thread got alive :o) me like :o)

Anyway:
- regarding tournament play: I missed a big tournament a few weeks ago, but I would have played with Di's build ...;
- however, when I play 'locally', I play against some of the better players in Belgium, so i find it rather representative;
- my experience with the deck could be caused by the above (players are just better than me) or by my playing style and especially mulligan style. I find myself often really doubting about keeping a hand and I think I should more often mulligan, but to be honest ... I lack the balls ... :s
- the option of including 2 packmasters indeed looks good, I really liked the card in the survival build, however, we should be carefull about to many 3CC and 4CC creatures/spells. Having an opening hand with 2 land, 3 3CC and 2 4CC creatures is no good ...
- what do you guys do about chalice @ 1? I really hate it and there is not a lot to be done about it i guess (except SB, but that alreasy slows you down a lot). any thoughts?

@ Di, you said you were tweaking your deck after your top 8, care for any insights?

- I know the champions are the weakest of the lords, but I just like to be able to cast lord after lord after lord ... (when the first and second get countered or blown away you can just keep getting them out) I am afraid that when cutting 1 or 2 lords, we will loose some of that pressure.

but then again, I can be mistaken ...

Cheers

---

I've been going through the different scenarios in my head over and over... Yet I come to the same reasoning... Either you go with 12 lords and hope that something sticks so that you can swarm them, which is very unlikley if you play against a good player or especially decks like Tempothresh or Zoo (I never been able to swarm a good tempothresh player or a good Zoo player). Tempothresh only has to concentrate the counters towards Priests and Archdruid, this holds your mana generation back and you won't be able to cast more than a creature a turn if you're lucky. I've been in situations where I'm at two lands (after been wasted/stifled) and have two llanowar/fyndhorn out... This is very shaky since all they have to do is get a bolt or fire//ice to cut you back on mana even more. Don't talk about Zoo that has the upper hand against this deck due to the fact that they pack bolts, meanwhile the elf deck has no removal what so ever. If you would be able to resolve a packmaster against Zoo, you can take down their creatures one by one and even put your mana into pumping out wolves. You have to be careful though and not missplay here since it's crucial to survive.

That's why I feel that the packmaster is more appealing to me rather than playing the 11th and 12th lord, since they often don't matter in the matchups I desperatly need to win. I know that Packmaster requires other creatures in play, but that's hardly a problem when playing elves. You will most likely have a llanowar elf or something against the problemdecks, then I rather topdeck a packmaster than a champion.
And besides, we need something to spend our mana on when we can't recur or do our shinnanigans with Sylvan Messenger. I rather make wolves to chump/attack with than just sit there and wait for Sylvan Messenger to stick or to be topdecked.

Just want to let you guys know that I will try my list out on a online tournament. The list I will be running will be:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Forest

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Progenitus
2 Wren's Run Packmaster

4 Natural Order
4 Cabal Therapy

SB:
3 Absolute Law
4 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Woodfall Primus
3 Choke
1 Acidic Slime

I will report my results and thoughts, although the tournament is an elimination tournament. So I hope I'll do good. I expect to be up against a lot of bluebased tempodecks, Countertop and Zoo aswell. They are quite popular in my meta.
There might be some ANT or TEES decks but I'll hope that I don't have to face them.
Now I get to try out the Packmaster and see if it fits. Might bring it down to 1 if it clogs up too much and add a fourth Fyndhorn.
I've been thinking all night of how to add more sources of mana (lands), but it's difficult to touch the list. Might have to go up to 19 lands since the addition of packmasters?
I dunno... I will get back to you.

I would cut at least one packmaster for another Champion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

Just want to let you guys know that I will try my list out on a online tournament. The list I will be running will be:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Forest

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Progenitus
2 Wren's Run Packmaster

4 Natural Order
4 Cabal Therapy

SB:
3 Absolute Law
4 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Woodfall Primus
3 Choke
1 Acidic Slime

I will report my results and thoughts, although the tournament is an elimination tournament. So I hope I'll do good. I expect to be up against a lot of bluebased tempodecks, Countertop and Zoo aswell. They are quite popular in my meta.
There might be some ANT or TEES decks but I'll hope that I don't have to face them.
Now I get to try out the Packmaster and see if it fits. Might bring it down to 1 if it clogs up too much and add a fourth Fyndhorn.
I've been thinking all night of how to add more sources of mana (lands), but it's difficult to touch the list. Might have to go up to 19 lands since the addition of packmasters?
I dunno... I will get back to you.

---

Due to workrelated issues, I had to turn down the tournament...
Although I will test the same list on MWS on friday/saturday and will come with the results from that. I'll be playing against a wide variety of decks and hopefully get some good statistics to report.

With the Survivalless version, I've been messing around with Bramblewood Paragon and playing Wren's Run Vanquishers (I even experimented around with Talara's Batallion).

Paragon has been interesting so far - it's almost like another lord out with Imperious Perfect and Vanquishers, but the nice thing is that the guys it boosted keep their pumps even if they kill the Paragon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

With the Survivalless version, I've been messing around with Bramblewood Paragon and playing Wren's Run Vanquishers (I even experimented around with Talara's Batallion).

Paragon has been interesting so far - it's almost like another lord out with Imperious Perfect and Vanquishers, but the nice thing is that the guys it boosted keep their pumps even if they kill the Paragon.

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I tested the paragon as well and ended up cutting him. On its own is just pretty weak and the deck does not run enough warriors to be able to give it a proper boost. Only advantage is the mana cost of 2.

Just dropped out of a tourney (30 ppls), my limited report:

I played Di's list with +1 llanowar and -1 champion (as he does/did), however, i played another 3 forests instead of the wastelands (i found myself to manascrewed sometimes and the wastelands never made me win a game that i would have otherwise lost).
SB something like:
3 krosan grip
3 tsunami
3 absolute law
1 teeg
1 loaming shaman
2 jitte
2 progenitus graveyard hate (cannot get the name atm ...)

1st opponent, a friend of mine who playes merfolk, we are already laughing that i will win this game.
game 1: i do not go very hard and by turn 3/4 he has 3 lords and wakethrasher and pounds me
game2: I go crazy with messenger bounces and lots of mana and he scoops
game3: i see 2 tsunami's, nothing much else (neither does he) but he has a waketrasher that eventually kills me ...

2nd opponent: enchantress (yesterday i was thinking about siding 1 simic skyswallower for this matchup, but in the end, didn't because i didn't think i would run into it ...) there was 1 enchantress deck so it was my luck
game 1: i cabal therapy him, see nothing special, beat him to 10 or something and then he drops moat ... scoop
game 2: i open with a good hand including a krosan grip. he tutors for a drop of honey which he plays on his 2nd turn. i go rather fast and beat him to 11, in his fourth turn he fetches to 10 and casts moat. in my turn I grip the moat and beat him to 1, in his turn he plays his second moat (he only played 2 and got them both in his opening hand...)
I cannot find a grip the next turn, and he gives all his enchantments shroud ... good game ...

next round i get a bye and go home ...

all in all, i was rather happy with the deck. in my opinion, the 3 extra forests provide more consistency

changes to the deck: main: nothing much
side: +1 simic skyswallower, +1 tsunami, +1 absolute law

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Di

Elvish Champion is easily the weakest lord in the deck, no argument there. Forestwalk is decent but isn't gamebreaking compared to the abilities of the other two. I myself went down to 3 in favor of the 8th Llanowar Elf as I wanted more consistent turn 1 accelerants, and I've been liking it a lot. Wren's Run Packmaster is a solid replacement as well. It can be a bit slow because of its high casting cost and occasionally be a bad topdeck, but I can contest that it's amazing at virtually all aspects of the game. I'm a bit wary to run them as I've been trying to keep the curve as low as possible and these are more expensive than their replacements, but it's a solid card, much better than Vanquisher imo.

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Yeah man, Champion sucks so much, I hate playing it against Thresh, its so win-more. Having your dudes pumped out of Fire/Ice range, and become unblockable isnt gamebreaking at all.

Does your meta really not consist of atleast 50% Thresh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kanti

Yeah man, Champion sucks so much, I hate playing it against Thresh, its so win-more. Having your dudes pumped out of Fire/Ice range, and become unblockable isnt gamebreaking at all.

Does your meta really not consist of atleast 50% Thresh?

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No. However, if you're honestly worried about sitting across from a deck with 8 creatures with your 30 creature, 11-12 lord, 4 Natural Order deck then maybe you're just doing something wrong. I'll at least let your sarcasm be dully noted.

You're an aggressive deck; aggro-control strategies are easy for you to prey on because you swarm them very quickly. Just because forestwalk is great against Threshold doesn't make it any better compared to the other lords. Imperious Perfect is the strongest card in the deck besides Natural Order. It's token-generating ability is by far the most useful of the lords because it creates an army by itself, and with a Ranger or Symbiote it gets insane. Archdruid increases the speed and consistency of the deck and puts the deck over the top if you're able to untap with it in play on turn 2-3. Compare that to Elvish Champion, with the ability that is limited to being good in selective matchups. I'm not going to denounce Elvish Champion as bad because it's still an amazing card, but it isn't amazing in every matchup where the other two retain their full potential. As far as cutting down the number of lords go, I'd cut it before the others for that reason alone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Teumie

side: +1 simic skyswallower

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Why are you running a second Natural Order target? And why the heck is Simic Sky Swallower better than a second Progenitus?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kuma

Why are you running a second Natural Order target? And why the heck is Simic Sky Swallower better than a second Progenitus?

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Moat?

Without a flyer, moat is game ... (especially if it gets shroud ...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Teumie

Moat?

Without a flyer, moat is game ... (especially if it gets shroud ...)

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That's why I think Empyrial Archangel is better since it comes in against Zoo aswell, which is better than Simic Skyswallower imo...
Empyrial + Absolute law makes all bolts to the dome worthless and combined with Wirewood Symbiote/Quirion Rangers, you can block the goyfs all day long while you swing with your team for the win.

yeah, i'm still doubting between skyswallower and archangel.
For the enchantress matchup, i guess the skyswallower is better, for zoo/gobo's, archangel is indeed better, so i figure in my meta, archangel is indeed the better choice ;-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

That's why I think Empyrial Archangel is better since it comes in against Zoo aswell, which is better than Simic Skyswallower imo...
Empyrial + Absolute law makes all bolts to the dome worthless and combined with Wirewood Symbiote/Quirion Rangers, you can block the goyfs all day long while you swing with your team for the win.

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Just to note - you can't actually untap the Empyrial Archangel with Wirewood Symbiote/Quirion Rangers due to its shroud.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Just to note - you can't actually untap the Empyrial Archangel with Wirewood Symbiote/Quirion Rangers due to its shroud.

---

Wasn't implying that you untap the Archangel with the symbiote nor ranger. Was implying that you could block the goyfs with Symbiote/Ranger shinnanigans at the same time that you have prot. red and Archangel on your side which makes most creatures in Zoo, Aggro Loam etc. not that scary.

If you have to worry about moats in your meta, why don't you try to play a couple of zealots?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

Wasn't implying that you untap the Archangel with the symbiote nor ranger. Was implying that you could block the goyfs with Symbiote/Ranger shinnanigans at the same time that you have prot. red and Archangel on your side which makes most creatures in Zoo, Aggro Loam etc. not that scary.

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Oh ok. How do you block Goyfs all day with a Ranger though? I understand Symbiotes bouncing elves, but Ranger?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Oh ok. How do you block Goyfs all day with a Ranger though? I understand Symbiotes bouncing elves, but Ranger?

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Untap a token, chump. Ofc you need to have made tokens before. But we always talk hypothetical.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hawdes

Untap a token, chump. Ofc you need to have made tokens before. But we always talk hypothetical.

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Ok, you left the Perfect out of your previous post, which was the source of the confusion. :)