I didn't realize it was from forever ago. Sorry. But still. I feel like there's more people who want no changes than people who do.
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I didn't realize it was from forever ago. Sorry. But still. I feel like there's more people who want no changes than people who do.
Mana Vault is wayyy to broken. Rit-> Vault-> AdN
Sick.
They are not the same type of decks. Saying dying to removal or gy hate does not make it a bad deck. Most decks play 4 removal spells some do not play any at all. Discard can remove the answers allowing you to counter others, is a solid plan. The deck has a number of ways to be disrupted, Zoo can be hard due to infi removal, but it isnt unwinnable. Needle,Claim,E Truth all answer gy hate. Just because SnT-->Emrakul is a powerful combo, does not lessen how good a Lone,Single Hermit Druid can be; There is no more set up after Hermit taps, no cards needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
I am not saying "it is the best deck evar omguhasnoclu". The deck is not bad just because there are ways to stop it. It is a good deck and not nearly as bad as you make it out to be.
@Mikey- Anger is a good idea haven't tested that could also somehow set up Anger in yard to play around spot removal with Hermit-Maybe SurvivalDruid with Vines, sounds good ?-, used Dragon's Breath and Lord of Extinction to feed Ghoul in current list.
Either way, I would like to see more cards unbanned Hermit or otherwise.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You're basically borrowing half of vengevine and the win half of dredge (i.e. the stuff that doesn't dredge since you have druid to do it in one shot). LED works well in this deck since you can use it to power SotF --> lethal vengevine or Hermit Druid --> Bridge zombies. You've got Mongrel/LED to get rid of Bridges from hand. I don't think it would be format breaking, but I think it would be VERY solidly tier 1. Without an active Crypt/Relic/Extirpate/Stifle (with a removal spell for Druid before next turn), your opponent has no chance to do anything before you make 16 2/2's or multiple 4/3's.
Seconded. The format looks quite healthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Ah, sorry just a bit too much hyperbole on my part. I was basically trying to get across that there are other decks and cards unabnned right now that are just as broken as Druid and probably more resilient too. Thus it's a safe unban. Although you are correct that its pretty much the easiest set up ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
No, it's the other way around, it's likely the other cards will get banned because they are crazier than druid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
Honestly, Legacy is fun right now. We have a bunch of TES and SI running around, and it's great. I actually like playing against this type of combo. Who doesn't love some shelldocking an Emrakul?
I believe the format is in a place where we have decks that are Top Tier and good, but not overwhelmingly good. Merfolk, Zoo, etc. can all be beaten, but are all good decks. We also have a bunch of Tier 1.5 decks that can stand up, and do quite well in their own accord. Nothing is really dominating the meta, although some decks are more popular than others.
I'll be honest, Mystical Tutor did take away some strategies, and the format probably would have survived had it not been banned, but the way it is now, I like it very much. It's a tad slower, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
-Matt
I would kind of like to have Shaharzad back. Be fun to cast that on some of these new combo decks. Not to mention, I bet half the people have forgotten about the whole "remove from game" thing with that card and would actually try and play me out in a game.
No, nothing will be banned anytime soon because nothing is overly dominating.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJones
For all the other people Druid is really good. The thing about Druid is, as soon as he activates the game is over and you win. That means all you really need is a way to get Druid into hand and a way to protect him until he activates. I messed around with a Druid deck briefly right before the B&R list split and it was really strong. Between Wordly Tutor, Druid, and all the cheap discard available (including Unmask) it's very easy to play 2 discard spells and then a second turn Druid and then they have one turn to answer before you win.
Basically Druid is a 1G creature whose ability is to activate to win the game. It's a one card win-con in any deck it's ever going to be in. Show and Tell Emrakul is not really comparable since you need a companion spell and they get to put a possible answer into play for free. Druid is just play any discard you can, strip their hand, play Druid, win. I'd hate to see what people could do with that card now-adays.
I'd love to have Shaharzad back. Twincast + Mirari + Shaharzad + the enchantment that forces the game to draw in 2 turns. Good times.
-Matt
I just liked Tormod's crypting, Extirpating, Swordsing, and Samurai of the Pale Curtaining people in the subgame and then watching them cringe as the judge said, "No they don't come back, they stay removed back in the normal game". Muahahaahah! It's WW, player loses half their life next time around.
flame me all you want, but the cold hard fact is that the format would be far healthier, more interesting and more varied without Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is the epitome of a format warping card.
Also, why are land tax and earthcraft still banned? And I think gush and frantic search would be interesting.
Does this still work now that there exists a zone in the game for those cards? Similar to how you can't Wish for exiled cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahcmai
nope, when the game ends, all cards from all of that subgame's zones are shuffled in, including exileQuote:
Originally Posted by jrsthethird
The list I was working on the last time Hermit Druid was mentioned used Entomb -> Anger before it went off. The opponent does not have a chance to respond to an activation. Now with M11, you can side into Leyline of Sanctity to avoid all grave-hate but Faerie Macabre. After testing it online for a week or so I was sporting a pretty frightening 2nd-turn kill percentage of about 75%. All you really need in hand to go off is entomb (or LED if Anger is in hand), a way to get hermit druid, and enough mana to cast and activate it. Between Lotus Petal, 8 Spirit Guides, optional LED, and 8-12 slots dedicated to Hermit Druid (Druid itself, Summoner's Pact, optional Worldly Tutor - and Pact can grab mana too) it's pretty easy to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
As for kills, you can use either the Bridge from Below plan, Sutured Ghoul + Lord of Extinction, or Reveillark -> flashback Cabal Therapy into Kiki-Jiki + Pestermite. Or any combination of those, I guess. It's a pretty flexible deck really.
Here's a sample list:
4 Hermit Druid
4 Summoner's Pact
0-4 Worldly Tutor
4 Entomb
3-4 Narcomoeba
1-2 Dread Return
1 Reveillark
1 Pestermite
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Anger
4 Cabal Therapy
2-4 Thoughtseize
4 Pact of Negation
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
0-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
This is just a barebones list. You can actually forego some pieces like LED or Worldly Tutor in favor of more resiliency like a Bridge From Below, Sutured Ghoul + Lord of Extinction, and one of the Lorwyn Incarnations so you can still win if Anger gets removed somehow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by perm
Bah, you are right. They updated it to include that. Sad Face. I hadn't noticed since it got banned.
So Gush and Frantic search were just unbanned in Vintage. What does that mean for Legacy, if anything? I think that WotC might be testing the waters with Frantic Search to see if its safe to unban in Legacy. Thoughts? As a Solidarity player, I really want Frantic Search to be unbanned.
Its funny because both cards were never banned in Vintage. Its actually mind-boggling if they actually meant it for Legacy. I mean they could have said: "Gush and Frantic Search are now unrestricted" since they were restricted in Vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Plus the fact that Gush as always been restricted in the format. It has been unrestricted only to be restricted again few months after its unrestriction. We'll see how this goes.
I'd be inclined to think they meant to say "Gush and Frantic Search are now unrestricted", since they're both a bit too powerful in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Fair, I do think that the decks that would benefit from these cards are the current dominant decks: Merfolk and Madness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jander78
Frantic Search is debatable in those decks. Although it would obviously make Solidarity uber-broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Gush, on the other hand, is way too good. When has a blue-based tempo deck not been a DTB/W?
The deal with the Mana Vault is that Dark Ritual is too good. A colorless version of it is less good, but it still is awesome. Also the fact that you can play it and pass the turn, effectively storing mana for the next turn, should not be overlooked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Just take the simple example:
Turn 1 - Swamp, Mana Vault, go
Turn 2 - Underground Sea, Ad Nauseam
Not a godly hand or anything, but it did make your Wild Nacatl look stupid. The fact that you can play it in conjunction with Dark Ritual makes it even better, effectively making your Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual(Mana Vault), Ad Nauseam hand much more common.
Oh crap, just imagine how good it is with LED and IT:
Turn 1 - Swamp, Mana Vault, go
Turn 2 - Underground Sea, LED, Duress, Infernal for AdN
When you play it and pass the turn it's almost a Dark Ritual + 1 because you get to use your land. The fact that it's colorless does make a huge difference, but the is meaningless when compared to its power.
On the Druid:
I don't think it should be unbanned. We have enough combos as it is, and unlike other this is a 1 card combo that doesn't create great deckbuilding restrictions.
Tempo/Canadian thresh is no longer tier 1 and that is an example of a blue based tempo deck. However if gush were unbanned in legacy canadian thresh would play it as a 4 of immediately in place of the ponder slot due to it protecting their lands in response to a wasteland activation on tropical island or something, effectively a. call like CA at the cost of bouncing 2 lands in a deck running 18 lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastorofmuppets
Sigh they didn't unban land tax or earthcraft yet again. Why wizards why do you persist in keeping land tax on the banned list? The card is perfectly safe for legacy with this format being as fast as it is.
New Horizons, Next Level Thresh, and Team America are blue-based tempo decks that have potential to be tier 1 if they were played more. In my meta in particular, NH is pretty much the DTB. Gush would be pretty sick in each one of these decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
Actually, Gro-based threshold would be the nuts with Lorescale Coatl and Quirion Dryad; it's pretty easy to imagine what a post-Gush era tempo deck would look like (with or without a splash), and it would be nuts, especially with Jace around. You think Terravore is huge? Gush, Brainstorm, and Jace-fueled Coatls will be all over the place.
Why don't you people understand that Land Tax is not banned for power level reasons!?! It's banned because it makes the game UNFUN. You drop T1 Land Tax, your opponent will never want to drop a second land for the rest of the game. It breaks the fundamental rule of Magic (let's play spells to try to kill our opponent) on turn 1. Sure, other cards influence game play in a similar way, but they're expensively costed and awkward. Same thing as Oath of Druids.Quote:
Sigh they didn't unban land tax or earthcraft yet again. Why wizards why do you persist in keeping land tax on the banned list? The card is perfectly safe for legacy with this format being as fast as it is.
Why don't we ban Weathered Wayfarer on the spot?Quote:
Originally Posted by jrsthethird
Why not? Because Legacy has creature removal. Enchantments are much more difficult to remove. I'm all for unbanning Land Tax though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
Okay so they were unrestricted, my bad thats what I meant to say. Frantic Search looks alright in Merfolk and Madness. Its a great free card filter but it can only be played turn 3 provided you hit all three land drops, which is a little slow for Legacy. I'd think that Madness would prefer Careful Study to Frantic Search because you can filter earlier and you can actually take advantage of BS + Careful Study on turn 2 instead of BS + Frantic Search on turn 4. Also, Merfolk would have a tough time finding slots for Frantic Search.
I don't think Frantic Search would make Solidarity 'uber-broken'. At best the deck will now actually be able to win on turn 3 (maybe turn 2), but DDFT has been doing that for years. The only difference is that Solidarity can play FoW; its still weak against Counterbalance.dec.
Basically, it's because no one is scared of Weathered Wayfarer. You can get away with playing a couple lands and not losing the game because you know that Wayfarer is not much better than Bob in the decks that abuse him. He gets you an extra card every turn; powerful, but not broken. For reasons why Wayfarer is inferior to Land Tax:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinefol
Creature removal: Land Tax is harder to kill, with very few 1cc answers. There are tons of 1 or 2 mana answers to a creature.
Costs W to activate: Land Tax costs a 1 mana investment and then sits there with no further investment. Ask anyone who's ever played with/against Sylvan Library how awesome this effect is. Wayfarer needs to tap and pay W for it, it's a small price to pay but it sets you behind a turn in your curve if you want to take advantage of it early. There's a reason it's really only played in UW Tempo; you have Daze and Fathom Seer, in addition to fetches, to help make sure you can activate him.
Only gets one land: The biggest difference. Getting 3 basic lands a turn is awesome when you can take advantage of it with Brainstorm, Jace, Scroll Rack, etc., while giving you an automatic shuffle effect. Sure, you can do it with Wayfarer but you lose 2 cards.
On the other hand, Wayfarer finds Wasteland and Land Tax can only find basics.
True, but each time you Waste them, you make your Wayfarer weaker by cutting your opponent's lands.
Wayfarer is a much more skill-intensive card, on both sides of the board. Land Tax is just stupid and says "look at me, you can't play any more lands unless I get a free Ancestral Recall". It's like Standstill every turn.
Also, I'm not arguing that Land Tax is overpowered (this is obvious, but Legacy is full of overpowered cards). I'm arguing that it makes the game unnecessarily slow and unfun. The format would be able to handle Land Tax but not many people would enjoy it.
Land tax is almost worthless on it's own. the CA you get is dead weight. You need something like a manabond etc to abuse it. You get a hand inflated with basic lands, that's it.
And earthcraft probably wouldn't even see play if unbanned. Frantic search, i wouldn't lose much sleep over.
And again, tarmogoyf is just too good a creature. It is the definition of a format warping card. If anyone familiar with legacy asked you what the term format warping means, just say "tarmogoyf" instead of defining it.
I think this is changing. Vengevine Survival may be the first but it certainly won't be the last green aggro deck to run without Goyf. I've seen Loam decks cut him as well. Goyf has a lot of competition from Knight of the Reliquary, Terravore, and Countryside Crusher. As more sets get released, this list will continue to grow.Quote:
Originally Posted by perm
I would play frantic search in a heartbeat, I love that card. I would play it in faerie stompy, since pitching lands in a deck with crucible of worlds is sick.
I'll (uselessly?) point out that 'goyf has not won a 5k or a GP, or even put a disproportionate number of decks into the top 8, in quite a while. As someone who likes to design decks, wasteland is far more restrictive than goyf, I sort of assume my opponent will have threats, and plan accordingly. Having to work around a totally variable curve depending on match up is much more challenging. Frankly Aether Vile + Wasteland + FoW feels much more unfair, and that deck is, you know, fair. 'Goyf is really good. Best ever. But this is legacy, "best ever" is the CURRENCY of legacy, you know what I mean?
Lol, the reason why goyf is losing power that it had ~2 years ago is because people are maindecking fucking Mind Harness because tarmogoyf. The value of removal/control spells is equal to how good they are at dealing with tarmogoyf. Threads of disloyalty, smother, mind harness. This is what format warping means. When you see cards like mind harness being played because of ONE CARD. T-goyf eclipses like 50 green creatures because it is just too undercosted of a creature. It should be 1GG and it would still see play.
All three of those require you to do something other than play the game of magic to be threatening.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
KotR does not require you to do a damn thing. Put Fetches in your deck? You do that anyway. Zoo runs Knight, as does Loam. Also, there was not one mind harness, smother, or Threads in the top 8s of GP Madrid, Columbus, any of the SCG Opens, MTGO champs, that I just now looked at. So if people are deciding to warp their decks around 'Goyf, and they might be, it's the wrong decision. No one is winning that way, and most are winning without 'goyf at all.
Edit: SO, I was just looking at the Baltimore results, and the 2nd place deck ran 3 Mind harnesses side, and no 'goyfs anywhere. This made me chuckle. Eating my words and being right all at once.
If anything, Tarmogoyf is good for the overall health of the format. It helps the fair decks that actually fight the unfair ones put up a fight against the fair decks that have decided not to. One of the best ways to try to beat Zoo is only fight one of their groups of creatures (one drops or Goyfs/Knights) with your spells and hold the others with Goyfs with the eventuality of outdrawing them and winning the Goyf fight.
The only card I would like to see banned is Show and Tell. U all know why....
The use of the terms 'fair' and 'unfair' are poor and misleading in a game where the object is to win, not to mention they are completely subjective.Quote:
Originally Posted by AriLax
Better terms are "balanced" and "unbalanced". An unbalanced card warps decks and formats around it. Extreme examples would be oath of druids or black lotus. In the first case, most decks would be oath or decks that are designed to beat oath. The second card would be run in every single deck if cost was not a factor.