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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nizmox
I don't think you can deny that the value would be higher had it not been reprinted in countless sets.
That said, your comparison is between black bordered and white bordered. As we all know, players love black bordered cards and that is why alpha and beta versions of the card have retained value. For the purposes of reprinting legacy staples; included in staples are dual lands. The vast majority of players own white bordered revised duals or unlimted duals. So if Wizards are to reprint these in black bordered form (promo, dual deck, new set etc...) it will have a much greater impact than your wrath of god comparison.
By the sounds of it, Wizards is looking at reprinting the reserve list in premium products (i.e. black bordered and foil) which in my opinion is the worst approach they can take. It is going to definitely devalue white bordered dual lands if reprinted, but probably not greatly impact original bb duals. It's for this reason I think white bordered with new border reprints is the way forward.
Wrath of God was printed in both Portal I and II (BB), as a a BB textless promo, and as anonymos says, as FBBs. It has millions of black bordered copies in addition to A/B and those originals are still worth a bit. The whole "I don't think you can deny..." statement is based on pure speculation that can never be resolved without a time machine and a different game than the one we have now. All we can do is examine current facts, which are what I said in the post before this one (endless printing, nostalgia, etc.). The reality is that A/B Wraths are still worth quite a bit considering how many print runs they have seen.
Anyway, all I was trying to say is sheer print run numbers don't always translate into basement prices, particularly on highly playable cards, which is what people are worried about.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MMogg
Wrath of God was printed in both Portal I and II (BB), as a a BB textless promo, and as anonymos says, as FBBs. It has millions of black bordered copies in addition to A/B and those originals are still worth a bit. The whole "I don't think you can deny..." statement is based on pure speculation that can never be resolved without a time machine and a different game than the one we have now. All we can do is examine current facts, which are what I said in the post before this one (endless printing, nostalgia, etc.). The reality is that A/B Wraths are still worth quite a bit considering how many print runs they have seen.
Anyway, all I was trying to say is sheer print run numbers don't always translate into basement prices, particularly on highly playable cards, which is what people are worried about.
I'm not going to get into an arguement, I think we more or less agree. As I said in my post, I agree with you regarding black bordered cards retaining their value because they are popular. I'm concerned with white bordered cards.
I also agree that print numbers dont equal basement prices, but supply no doubt affects price. From an economics perspective I would say that increasing the supply of white bordered versions of a given card probably won't have much affect on the black bordered version. The demand for the two is different (some people want black bordered, others want the cheapest version of the card they can obtain).
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
Link? Credentials? I mean, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm just wondering who appointed you the spokesman for "the Magic community."
Look, I don't necessarily object to the judicious reprinting of Legacy staples. I just object to the idea of $10 dual lands, to harken back to one of your earlier posts.
But I can see where this is all heading, which is why I'm going to be selling off my excess Legacy staples in the next few months. I already took a bath on my 401k. Don't need my Magic collection to depreciate 40% overnight, too.
I should clarify. I have no special position as spokesman for anything but myself, but just think it through! I don't think it's controversial that a reserved list is at least 'alien' to most players, in the sense that most players do not play an Eternal format (I am discounting kitchen-table eternal because the bulk of them do not know the first thing about reprint policy, including the very existence of a reprint policy). So I'm going to assume that the problem lies with my description 'laughable'.
Consider that there are several cards in standard/extended which are of the price level similar to that of Legacy staples - Goyf, Jace, Baneslayer, Elspeth, maybe some lower level cards like Jitte. Imagine if WotC came out and said that they promised never to reprint these cards, to preserve their 'collectability' - and then further promised that they would never rotate those cards out of standard/extended, so they would always have high play value, leaving $50 (and rising) baneslayer and jace to stomp on the neck of Standard forever.
I think we can agree that this would be utterly absurd. It would be ridiculous - 'laughable', even - for standard or extended players to ask for that kind of 'collectability' protection. Yet that is the situation we find Legacy in today.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Matt, basically everything you said in the above seems to be true.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I imagine that if WotC came out and said goyf wouldn't be reprinted, then tournaments which offer goyf as prizes would be more well-attended. :)
What I mean is, what incentive would there be for players to attend tournies, and support/play Legacy if you can just go to walmart and buy whatever staples they want for $19.95? And consequently, what will TOs offer at that point that would justify a $20 or so entry and make hosting Legacy tournies worth their while? If everything drops in value, by say 50%, would that really be healthier for the format?
The price of certain cards can lead to innovation. Would UW Tempo have ever been made if Goyf was ten bucks? Wouldn't we see a rise in goyfs and forces, and probably less people playing things like goblins or mono-black or dredge. Would you really want to play in a format where every other deck packed Tabernacles or Loyal Retainers or Forces? I'm not sure it'd be as fun or varied as it is now.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I suspect people playing AnT mostly do so because they enjoy Storm combo, same for Dredge, Merfolk, etc. I don't think having $20-30 Goyfs (again) would all of a sudden cause every non-Goyf player to start playing Goyf-centric decks.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I don't think that if entry fees drop below 20 bucks and/or shops will double the ammount of prizes, that it will somehow hurt the Legacy community. Unless it hurts the shops alone, but they don't make their profit from entry fees nor from the prizes. They make the profit from singles and baguettes, which the Legacy players will buy forever more. And if the access to duals, fows, goyfs and stuff will be easier, than more players can start to play Legacy.
More players = more baguettes
But maybe I'm wrong. These things are hard to predict from the table.
@Arsenal. You're right. I own pretty much all the important Goyf.dec from Loam to x number of Threshes possible, G/B aggro, The Cure (:wink:) and also a number of FoW.dec ( Faerie Stompy including) and still - I enjoy piloting Ichorid.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nebuchadnezzar
What I mean is, what incentive would there be for players to attend tournies, and support/play Legacy if you can just go to walmart and buy whatever staples they want for $19.95?
Because it's fun and exciting to test your skills in competitive events?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nebuchadnezzar
What I mean is, what incentive would there be for players to attend tournies, and support/play Legacy if you can just go to walmart and buy whatever staples they want for $19.95?
Because not everyone is concerned with status of their deck rarity. Because there is prestige from winning tournaments. Because people like playing pet decks with cards that are not Std/Ext legal. Case in point: Goblins.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I have always wanted to play Quinn competitively (I love that deck) but I could never do because I have no access to Moats or Grindstones :(
Now, I am stuck with a half-assed casual version that no one wants to play against :(
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
(nameless one)
I have always wanted to play Quinn competitively (I love that deck) but I could never do because I have no access to Moats or Grindstones :(
Now, I am stuck with a half-assed casual version that no one wants to play against :(
I can understand moat, but grindstone? Those can be had for $20.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nebuchadnezzar
What I mean is, what incentive would there be for players to attend tournies, and support/play Legacy if you can just go to walmart and buy whatever staples they want for $19.95?
Who would play chess if you could just buy everything you needed for $19.95 at walmart?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr.C
I can understand moat, but grindstone? Those can be had for $20.
Money is not the issue on that one. Its more the availability around my area.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tha Gunslinga
Who would play chess if you could just buy everything you needed for $19.95 at walmart?
Chess and magic are fundamentally different. Chess is a game of skill while magic is a game of luck. Sure there is skill involved, but luck is a huge factor. Wizards even embraces this as they could have easily made changes to the game to make it more skill intensive. Newer games like WoW tcg and spoils have been designed to be less based on luck, but wizards likes having games decided on luck.
I can tell you right now that if wizards continues to dumb down the game I will not continue playing. The best ways for them to do this would be to ban SDT and brainstorm, to keep printing cards like wild nacatl which don't require any real thought process to use properly and to make legacy affordable for all the 12 year old type 2 players.
With the question of reprints I will say again I am fine with reprints. If wizards wants to make more force of wills available fine by me as long as it is reprinted. I want to play FoW in type 2 if theres going to be more of them. I am completely against putting expensive staples in FTV sets and dual decks though.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrew77
Chess and magic are fundamentally different. Chess is a game of skill while magic is a game of luck. Sure there is skill involved, but luck is a huge factor. Wizards even embraces this as they could have easily made changes to the game to make it more skill intensive. Newer games like WoW tcg and spoils have been designed to be less based on luck, but wizards likes having games decided on luck.
I can tell you right now that if wizards continues to dumb down the game I will not continue playing. The best ways for them to do this would be to ban SDT and brainstorm, to keep printing cards like wild nacatl which don't require any real thought process to use properly and to make legacy affordable for all the 12 year old type 2 players.
I have to respectfully disagree that Magic is somehow being dumbed down or that it is largly luck based and hence not very skill intensive. Instead of comparing it to Chess, let's compare it to Poker. Are you telling me all people are equal at Poker in spite of the fact that it's 100% luck based, by your definition? Magic has ways for the player to interact quite intimately and knowledgeably about his/her own deck and his/her opponent's deck for that matter. Was Magic being dumbed down when David Price won PT LA with Deadguy Red? In his own opinion, he thinks beatdown is just as skill intensive as control since you're also often presented with a number of options and decisions. I've been hearing how Wizards is dumbing down the game for 10 years, in spite of the fact that they introduce cards like Planeswalkers, which are anything but simplistic in their interaction with game rules.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'm not saying that there is no skill in magic, but it is quite evident that wizards is doing a fine job at making the game less skill intensive. Planeswalkers are somewhat simple to use tbh and mechanics like cascade require no brain activity at all to use.
I will just use a friend of mine who recently started playing magic as an example. In type 2 he plays jund and thinks the deck is perfectly fair. He has no problems with bloodbraid elf. He recently started playing points highlander with us and has made some pretty absurd comments. In his opinion brainstorm is a "cheater" card. He has no problem with cards like tinker or ancestral recall though. Let me explain. He acknowledges that tinker and ancestral recall are powerful, but he thinks they are fair because of how straightforward they are. The advantage player A or B gets from playing either is usually the same. Brainstorm on the other hand is a cheater card because player A might use brainstorm "fairly" meaning that he just brainstorms and goes on with the game, while player B might use brainstorm in an "unfair" manner meaning he would brainstorm and then crack a fetch giving him an unfair advantage. Now to tournament players his opinion might seem silly, but this is exactly how most type 2 players would feel if cards like brainstorm were legal. They wouldn't enjoy playing anymore because they would feel like their opponents are taking advantage of certain mechanics or rules to beat them and they are in turn not having an enjoyable experience. Wizards made this quite clear when they talked about getting rid of damage going on the stack. They thought it was unfun for most players to lose to that rule and therefore removed it. People don't have any problem losing to 6/7 2 mana tarmogoyfs or 1 mana 3/3 wild nacatl's, but when you start killing them on turn 1 thanks to LED or abuse brainstorm against them they will start crying.
If you look at a format like extended as it is today and compare it to extended of years past luck becomes even more important. Something as silly as winning the die roll to see who goes first can increase your matchup dramatically in that format. If you are playing zoo for example your matchup can increase or decrease by as much as 30% if you win the die roll and open with wild nacatl.
How can you claim type 2 isn't based on luck? The best deck is jund and the jund mirror is decided by who draws more bloodbraid elves/who cascades better. There is almost no skill involved in the jund mirror.
Type 1 is also plagued by luck issues. I will admit I haven't played much type 1, but since brainstorm was banned most of the decks are much more inconsistent. In the last even I played in I fizzled twice after getting memory jar off and drawing into nothing useful. Stupid sadistic sacrament decks are also running around which are basically the definition of random. They can get the perfect draw for a certain matchup and effectively win on turn 0 or 1 or they can get the wrong hate cards and just sit there doing nothing while they get killed.
In draft you have other luck based issues. Shards of Alara sealed for example was an awful ptq season because there were always a number of people in the room who did things like build 5c decks their mana couldn't support and then just got perfect draws throughout the event to top 8. M10 sealed? That was all based on who drew their bomb first. Even zendikar sealed is extremely swingy as if your deck misses a land drop or something you can fall too far behind to come back thanks to the speed of the format.
If legacy staples get reprinted in something like a FTV set and become readily available and the format becomes swamped by the 12 year olds who play type 2 I foresee the following changes...
SDT gets banned- this is simple. Most people take too long using it or dislike this card. It will cause problems and be banned.
Zoo and aggro strategies get stronger as control becomes weaker without top.
LED gets banned as no cb/top means combo becomes much stronger.
The variety of decks we see in legacy today will all but disappear. The format will become much more stagnant than it is today.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'll add that this topic is about the rising cost of MtG. If you want to continue discussing luck vs. skill in this game, kindly start another thread.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
That Magic is more swingy, I can agree. Hell, if you watch the youtube video of Ken Nagel (? designer of Worldwake) giving a Q&A on the Love Boat, he openly says Magic to Wizards is meant to be swingy, which is why landfall creatures get +2 and not +1. I also dislike that aspect of the game. But some of your criticisms seem hollow to me. I think most Limited is about dropping your bombs. I remember once, in an Invasion draft, I declared attackers, cast Breaking Wave paying the :2:, tapped all his blockers and untapped my attackers and killed my opponent, who was in his 30s and thought that card was absolutely unfair. The stuff you are saying I seriously have been hearing for a long time.
Now I don't know about Jund and Standard very well, but aren't there still pro players who are finishing better than others? "Wizards builds decks" has been a long complaint and even I have said that. Shite like Astral Slide and Affinity are pretty much no brainers, as is Cascade. So many blocks have obvious, flashing neon-light "BUILD ME" decks, and I think it's all too common and too simple to bring down matchups to "whoever draws X wins". There are simply too many variables and tiny decisions that can swing games.
By the way, that friend is ridiculous, and as we all know, case studies are not generalizable. :wink: Your friend doesn't necessarily represent Standard players as a whole. Obviously some like Brainstorm or else why are people flocking to Legacy in droves? I highly doubt those who decide to start playing Magic begin with Legacy. :laugh:
Edit: Ninjaed... sorry Bardo. Was typing before your post. Can this one stay?
Sure. Not a problem. - Bardo
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Stop complaining about prices and open more sealed. Thats all I gotta say.
Futuresight can be found dreadfully cheap and there are more cards in there besides 'goyf like River Of Tears, Grove Of The Burnwillows, Tombstalker, Epochrasite, Narcomoeba, Yixlid Jailer, Magus Of The Moon, Pact Of Negation, there are truly quite a few. So bust those open instead of buying all this stuff as singles when you really shouldnt
As with Coldsnap. Coldsnap can be opened for like $80 easily less than a $100 and there is a $50 card in that set (Dark Depths) so why the hell are people not buying boxes of it.
Italian Legends are $30 and you can find them for less than this. Why pay $400 for tabernacle when you can be buying these from sealed untampered boxes from reputable wholesalers?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Troll_ov_Grimness
Stop complaining about prices and open more sealed. Thats all I gotta say.
Futuresight can be found dreadfully cheap and there are more cards in there besides 'goyf like River Of Tears, Grove Of The Burnwillows, Tombstalker, Epochrasite, Narcomoeba, Yixlid Jailer, Magus Of The Moon, Pact Of Negation, there are truly quite a few. So bust those open instead of buying all this stuff as singles when you really shouldnt
As with Coldsnap. Coldsnap can be opened for like $80 easily less than a $100 and there is a $50 card in that set (Dark Depths) so why the hell are people not buying boxes of it.
Italian Legends are $30 and you can find them for less than this. Why pay $400 for tabernacle when you can be buying these from sealed untampered boxes from reputable wholesalers?
Italian legends isn't really worth opening. A box is like $500+ and if you don't pull a tabernacle or moat you are screwed. If you do hit a tabernacle though you've probably made a profit as you should get a mana drain as well as a bunch of chain lightnings since they are c2. If you don't get tabernacle though even if you get a moat, mana drain and some other decent rares like abyss, chains of mephistopheles you will barely be even and you will have just dumped $500 into cards you don't necessarily need.
Futuresight is decent to open, but I wouldn't open coldsnap unless it was japanese. Japanese coldsnap is much easier to make money with as tons of the cards command huge premiums if they are foil.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
You're forgetting the multitude of lesser Legends rares like Invoke Prejudice, In The Eyes Of Chaos there are quite a few $20-40 ones. And also Chain Lightning is a $15 common now.
For me honestly even if I were to open boxes of Legends in italian and the cards individually arent worth as much as in english I mean i dont care if i make profit or not i want the cards. i would look at it as how many cards am I getting at what cost. the answer is basically any box under $1000 is not so bad. quite honestly. if it is extremely old. I would buy Antiquities if I had the stones in a second just ebcause the artwork in that one particularly is so beautiful. cards like Phyrexian Gremlins are so whimsical and cool. The same reason I like many cards from the Dark the spookiness of that set is just palpable.
They don't make them like they used to? After Alliances i dont know what happened the game took a nosedive in artistic quality by and large.
Oh yeah WOTC stopped paying artist royalties and the spirit of the game rage quit
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Troll_ov_Grimness
Stop complaining about prices and open more sealed. Thats all I gotta say.
Futuresight can be found dreadfully cheap and there are more cards in there besides 'goyf like River Of Tears, Grove Of The Burnwillows, Tombstalker, Epochrasite, Narcomoeba, Yixlid Jailer, Magus Of The Moon, Pact Of Negation, there are truly quite a few. So bust those open instead of buying all this stuff as singles when you really shouldnt
As with Coldsnap. Coldsnap can be opened for like $80 easily less than a $100 and there is a $50 card in that set (Dark Depths) so why the hell are people not buying boxes of it.
Italian Legends are $30 and you can find them for less than this. Why pay $400 for tabernacle when you can be buying these from sealed untampered boxes from reputable wholesalers?
1) Your prices listed are way out of whack with real street prices, and I'm not sure where you're getting them from.
2) Future Sight boxes are not incredibly cheap, but let's say you open one and get all of the cards you listed. Here's the street value of those cards:
Tarmogoyf - $65
River of Tears - $1
Grove of the Burnwillows - $4
Tombstalker - $6.75
Epochrasite - $.75
Narcomoeba - $.75
Yixlid Jailer - $.25
Magus of the Moon - $3.75
Pact of Negation - $4.75
Total: $87
So you spent over $100 for a box of Future Sight, lost money, and probably ended up with a bunch of crap you didn't want or need in the first place. Congratulations! Let's move on.
3) Coldsnap box example:
Adarkar Valkyrie - $3.50
Commandeer - $1
Counterbalance - $5
Dark Depths - $24
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge - $1
Jester's Scepter - $.50
Jötun Grunt - $1.75
Ohran Viper - $2.75
Rite of Flame - $.50
Scrying Sheets - $.75
Zur the Enchanter - $2
Total: $42.75
So once again you lost money opening a box and probably ended up with a bunch of crap you didn't need. I'm starting to sense a trend here.
4) Italian Legends generally run about $600 a box, so let's break down an Italian Legends box.
Mana Drain - $70
Moat - $110
Reset - $8
The Abyss - $45
Invoke Prejudice - $8
Mirror Universe - $30
Chain of Mephistopheles - $35
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - $200
Chain Lightning - $8
Acid Rain - $4
All Hallow's Eve - $12
Sylvan Library - $4
In the Eye of Chaos - $12
Karakas - $8
Total: $554 plus whatever other random crap you got, assuming you pulled every money rare in your 36 packs, out of the 138 possible Legends rares
Once again opening an entire box is a losing proposition financially. That's why most people don't do it.
The more product is opened and the more copies are floating around it will most likely drive down the price of singles from that set (see Zendikar, Onslaught, Fallen Empires, etc.). Your argument for opening old boxes doesn't really hold water by any reasonable financial metric that I can see.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'd be happy to open old boxes.
At the MSRP of that time.
:)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I read but seldom post, so here's my .02 worth...
The local card shop is a legacy hot spot and this topic came up. Someone suggested WotC do boosters for the format. I like the idea of a Legacy booster pack. WotC could release release product in small batches to avoid wrecking card prices and get new old stuff in more players hands. What's interesting, is even one collector with 30+ Taiga's was for a controlled reprint of the dual lands.
I don't think reasonable reprint rates will hurt the prices of good playable cards. Wrath of God has been reprinted many many times and still holds it's value pretty well despite not being in Type 2 for the moment. It's been in like ABUR4th-10th. With that said the off color duals probably will take a price hit because demand isn't as strong but really is a scrubland selling for $15 to $20 instead of $25 a big deal?
Deep down, I don't think the orginal dual lands should have ever been placed on the reserve list.
BTW - while it isn't perfect in some decks, running three real dual lands & one Ravinca dual can work ok with all the fetch land goodness. It can also help friends make the supply of duals go a little futher. Likewise, 4 real dual's and one Ravinca seems to work pretty well too. Often people that don't know you or your decks will quickly wasteland that Ravi dual thinking you don't have the real ones...
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
To be honest the only real way wizards can increase supply is through reprints or promos. Reprints are pretty much out of the question as WotC doesn't want certain legacy staples in newer formats and promos can only do so much.
If for example wotc decided to do something like ftv legacy here would be the problems...
It is still a limited print run.
Most stores will just hike up prices so players will still pay through the nose.
If wotc decided to do legacy packs or something like that the issue is that opening the packs would be worthwhile if they were loaded with money cards and assuming they have an unlimited print run prices will be destroyed. If the packs are on a limited print run you face the same problems as with a ftv legacy.
Straight up reprinting certain cards is also problematic. Some people have suggested reprinting things like ravages of war and tabernacle as they wouldn't really cause problems in newer formats, but reprinting them would completely destroy the price of them. Players and collectors won't be happy when their $300 card is now worth $1.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'm for promos all the way. Think about judge/legacy top 8 foil portal playables. You can slowly increase the supply of VERY scarce cards without having to make a massive print run.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I believe that the best way to release old reprints is through modern dday Precon decks, like Duel Decks. Imagine $15-20 precons that contained say, 1 dual land along with some other halfway decent cards. There's not even a need for promo foils, just the reprint.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'm for promos, duel deck reprints as well as something akin to masters edition in paper. There's absolutely nothing stating that any 'current' set needs to be standard legal. Unhinged wasn't standard legal when it was in print.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrew77
To be honest the only real way wizards can increase supply is through reprints or promos. Reprints are pretty much out of the question as WotC doesn't want certain legacy staples in newer formats and promos can only do so much.
If for example wotc decided to do something like ftv legacy here would be the problems...
It is still a limited print run.
Most stores will just hike up prices so players will still pay through the nose.
If wotc decided to do legacy packs or something like that the issue is that opening the packs would be worthwhile if they were loaded with money cards and assuming they have an unlimited print run prices will be destroyed. If the packs are on a limited print run you face the same problems as with a ftv legacy.
Straight up reprinting certain cards is also problematic. Some people have suggested reprinting things like ravages of war and tabernacle as they wouldn't really cause problems in newer formats, but reprinting them would completely destroy the price of them. Players and collectors won't be happy when their $300 card is now worth $1.
And I'm not happy when new players have to stick to Merfolk, Goblins and Dredge just because they can't afford buying cards for the decks they would like to play.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrew77
Straight up reprinting certain cards is also problematic. Some people have suggested reprinting things like ravages of war and tabernacle as they wouldn't really cause problems in newer formats, but reprinting them would completely destroy the price of them. Players and collectors won't be happy when their $300 card is now worth $1.
I'm not happy that my Onslaught-era Rift Slide deck has lost almost all of its value either. Akroma's Vengeance is now a dollar rare instead of a $10 staple, Exalted Angel is a $6 imitation of Baneslayer instead of a $20 unrivaled beatstick, Decree of Justice is now a dollar rare instead of being the $10 defining control card of the era, same for Eternal Dragon. Wrath is down to $6. Don't even get me started on foil Slides and Rifts. I sunk hundreds of dollars into that deck and someone could probably put it together for $50 today, maybe less if you were halfway decent at scouring eBay. I know I'm not alone here either, anyone who didn't sell their standard deck before it rotated (pretty much any deck, any standard environment from the last fifteen years) has watched their "investments" plummet in value over night. This happens to hundreds of thousands of people ever year, even if you sell out before your standard cards devalue, the poor sucker who bought them from you gets crushed at rotation time instead.
Yet for some reason when we're talking about a $300 Tabernacle instead of a $300 deck, suddenly we're concerned for the plight of the guy who sunk money into it because WotC made a painfully bad promise fifteen years ago. I'm pretty sure that if you totaled up the amount of money that goes down the drain when standard rotates each season, it would be far more than the amount of money that would be lost if every card on the reserved list suddenly dropped to $1.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Otter
I'm not happy that my Onslaught-era Rift Slide deck has lost almost all of its value either. Akroma's Vengeance is now a dollar rare instead of a $10 staple, Exalted Angel is a $6 imitation of Baneslayer instead of a $20 unrivaled beatstick, Decree of Justice is now a dollar rare instead of being the $10 defining control card of the era, same for Eternal Dragon. Wrath is down to $6. Don't even get me started on foil Slides and Rifts. I sunk hundreds of dollars into that deck and someone could probably put it together for $50 today, maybe less if you were halfway decent at scouring eBay. I know I'm not alone here either, anyone who didn't sell their standard deck before it rotated (pretty much any deck, any standard environment from the last fifteen years) has watched their "investments" plummet in value over night. This happens to hundreds of thousands of people ever year, even if you sell out before your standard cards devalue, the poor sucker who bought them from you gets crushed at rotation time instead.
Yet for some reason when we're talking about a $300 Tabernacle instead of a $300 deck, suddenly we're concerned for the plight of the guy who sunk money into it because WotC made a painfully bad promise fifteen years ago. I'm pretty sure that if you totaled up the amount of money that goes down the drain when standard rotates each season, it would be far more than the amount of money that would be lost if every card on the reserved list suddenly dropped to $1.
But that's about rotation, not reprinting. standard-only cards plummeting is bound to happen, something you can anticipate. Not so if cards didn't have a no-reprints guarantee. Also the price alteration is caused by players (demand) and not wizards (supply)
But the more popular Legacy gets, the harder it will be to not reprint staples...
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TobyornotToby
But that's about rotation, not reprinting. standard-only cards plummeting is bound to happen, something you can anticipate. Not so if cards didn't have a no-reprints guarantee. Also the price alteration is caused by players (demand) and not wizards (supply)
But the more popular Legacy gets, the harder it will be to not reprint staples...
I think you were missing his point – which I tend to think is an excellent one. Card values decrease. Live with it. Whether values drop because of reprinting (which has never really been proven) or because of rotation, or because of being punted by the natural evolution of the game, players have to deal with the fluctuations and instabilities of their card values.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MMogg
I think you were missing his point – which I tend to think is an excellent one. Card values decrease. Live with it. Whether values drop because of reprinting (which has never really been proven) or because of rotation, or because of being punted by the natural evolution of the game, players have to deal with the fluctuations and instabilities of their card values.
That point is an absolute joke.
Why don't all you people who whine about card value increasing just live with that? Card values increasing are much better for the game then card values decreasing.
If you have a problem with card values increasing odds are you aren't buying cards or contributing to the increased prices anyway and they will keep rising regardless of your opinion and all your whining will be in vain.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
andrew77
That point is an absolute joke.
Why don't all you people who whine about card value increasing just live with that? Card values increasing are much better for the game then card values decreasing.
If you have a problem with card values increasing odds are you aren't buying cards or contributing to the increased prices anyway and they will keep rising regardless of your opinion and all your whining will be in vain.
How are increasing values better for the game than decreasing values?
And, my point was not to put a value judgement (good or bad) on increasing/decreasing card values, just that fluctuations are an inherent natural part of the game we play. Also, why is it that discussion always equals whining? How can we make progress without discussion and debate?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MMogg
How are increasing values better for the game than decreasing values?
And, my point was not to put a value judgement (good or bad) on increasing/decreasing card values, just that fluctuations are an inherent natural part of the game we play. Also, why is it that discussion always equals whining? How can we make progress without discussion and debate?
If card values are decreasing naturally it is because demand is decreasing which means the game is dying.
If card values fluctuate as you say then you should accept increased prices on legacy staples. Also we really can't make any progress as the decision ultimately lies with WotC not us. They probably don't give much of a damn either way as 99% of what they do is geared towards type 2 players and yugioh players.
This is the whining that is going on...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nidd
And I'm not happy when new players have to stick to Merfolk, Goblins and Dredge just because they can't afford buying cards for the decks they would like to play.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
andrew77
If card values are decreasing naturally it is because demand is decreasing which means the game is dying.
If card values fluctuate as you say then you should accept increased prices on legacy staples. Also we really can't make any progress as the decision ultimately lies with WotC not us. They probably don't give much of a damn either way as 99% of what they do is geared towards type 2 players and yugioh players.
This is the whining that is going on...
I have to respectfully disagree on a number of points. First, as I said, decreasing values occur for several reasons. Like Ben said in his article, Birds of Paradise maintained its value through countless reprints and only significantly dropped when it was power-crept to tier 2 by the superior Noble Hierarch. That doesn't point to moribundity as much as evolution.
Secondly, the entire reason Wizards sticks to the Reserved list, according to Mark Rosewater, is because it is worried about its corporate image and integrity in the eyes of its customers, so I think they do care when we have these debates. Wizards may not be reading, but Ben has certainly mentioned in his article things we have been discussing here and since Wizards invited him to give his opinion, ideas do filter through and discussion and debate does have an impact.
Lastly, I have seen some whining sometimes, but the quote you give does have another non-whiny reality that is the more geared to the health of the format. If we can all agree that the health of the format is most important, I don't see anything wrong with someone being displeased that entry into the format limits a player's choice based on card values. I'm not saying I agree with that, but I do think it's a valid opinion and shouldn't be disregarded as whining.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
ramanujan
Good Morning,
For what it is worth, here are my thoughts. As a long time magic player and supporter of the game, I have been blessed with a pretty reasonable collection of staples. I will not quit the game if we see reprints of duals or other sought after staples of the format but I will be dissipointed.
Wizards has created several formats that get far more press and tournaments than legacy which contain only cards that are currently available in booster packs. Legacy is a format that allows almost every card ever printed and in general; to own a great legacy deck, you should buy in to the format (literally). If you want a format whose best cards are currently available in packs, perhaps legacy is not for you. That is part of the appeal of the format. I just puchased a tabernacle for over 2 hundred because I will appreciate it and play it. I saved for a while to get that card and I will enjoy it more for that.
If legacy matters to you and you really want to play it competitively, spend your money acquiring legacy staples rather than buying baneslayers for 60 bucks. It has been said more times than I want to count but legacy is less expensive over the long haul than standard. Instead of saying that WOTC should pave the road for you by reprinting expensive staples of an old format, save and trade your way into a deck you can truely be proud of.
-Peace
Do a Google search for T1 Players Make Me Cry: the Rebuttal. Some guy was whining about card prices in Vintage and I wrote a response article. You know what I said? I said that T1 was cheaper than standard in the long run and that prices were fine. You can see how alive and well T1 is today. 15 proxy tournaments and all. I was a know-it-all asshole back then and I was wrong. I don't want to see Legacy go the way T1 did.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I have to agree with some number of posters: Andrew77, his point that a higher card value is better for the game. If cards aren't worth anything, people won't buy or spend their time playing a "worthless" game. Let's face it, one reason magic is popular is that the cards are semi-valuable. There's so many other similar tcgs, which I absolutely love playing, like for example Jyhad, which was a great game on its own. For whatever reason, it didn't make it. Now no-one plays it. The cards are worth nothing. People play Yu-gioh, people magic. Therefore the cards are worth something. LotFR, Wyvern, Star Wars, Pokemon, Warcraft. Less people play: cards worth less. Everyone can play these games, for a very small investment. But no one does. Instead more people would rather pay hundreds of dollars on Magic. How is that bad?
GP Madrid. The largest Magic tournament ever. Is it partly responsible for the recent price hikes? Yes. Has it affected the game of Magic in a negative way? FUCK NO. The numbers tell the story. The players have shown their support. Would there have been an extra few hundred people if prices were decreased? Would there have been less variety in the number of deck archetypes if prices were decreased? Who knows... In WotC "sample" of 100 decks from the event, there wasn't a single 40 land list. Is this because of the price and scarcity of Tabernacles? Probably. Is it better for the format that there's other decks which take it's place? In my mind, yes. And this is the difference between Legacy and Vintage. In Vintage you have 10 or so power cards, which themselves warp the entire format. Does Tabernacle or Loyal Retainers warp the format like Lotus or Ancestral Recall do Vintage? I don't think so. In Vintage, there are no other options. In Legacy there are. I personally don't think it's a valid comparison.
I also agree with ramunajan, "buy" into the format. The majority of people who complain about Legacy prices also play Standard regularly, and spend more cash drafting and playing standard constructed. Which is fine. But if you ain't rich, make a choice, then. My friend who started Magic with 2010, played alot of Standard, until I introduced him to Legacy. Now he has a tier 1 Legacy deck. Trading and selling your standard cards can go a loooong way into your first Legacy deck. I've seen it happen. Even in the midst of this current price increase. Legacy is going thru a growth spurt. Wizards is noticing this I'm sure, and it wouldn't surprise me at all for them to take advantage of it. Although I would be disappointed.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
Nebuchadnezzar
GP Madrid. The largest Magic tournament ever. Is it partly responsible for the recent price hikes? Yes. Has it affected the game of Magic in a negative way? FUCK NO. The numbers tell the story. The players have shown their support. Would there have been an extra few hundred people if prices were decreased? Would there have been less variety in the number of deck archetypes if prices were decreased? Who knows... In WotC "sample" of 100 decks from the event, there wasn't a single 40 land list. Is this because of the price and scarcity of Tabernacles? Probably
I could have brought Lands or Eternal Garden to the tournament today, but decided against it because the meta wasn't right for it. Pretty sure at least some other people had the same concerts. Just saying......
I agree with your other words though, although I still believe a 30% decrise in prices wouldn't hurt.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
andrew77
This is the whining that is going on...
You're talking about a healthy format, right? I hope your understanding of a healthy format does not include a format that is reigned by rising cardprices and decreasing cardavailability.
Sure, my 1-liner might've looked whiny, but there is a sad truth in it which MMogg already pointed out.
New players with limited budget will pick up the decks I mentioned rather than building something more expensive like Bant Survival or Tempo Thresh.
This leads to a few decks being played very much, more than today and this destroys the variety so many people like about Legacy.
This may be quite a bit in the future, but well, do we know how many people will attend other Legacy GPs?
my hope is that WotC see how big GP: Madrid was and that there is money to be made with this format - and I hope they look at what would help the format health: Increased availability of format staples.
The other option they could choose would be to translate the power creep to format staples and quasi-reprint them.
Imagine a Dual that gives 1 life when it EtB. This would result in increased cardavailability, but I guess the prices of the old Duals would go down.
But in the end, it's up to WotC to realize that they can both make money and help the players.
