Repeal only bounces cmc X not X or lessQuote:
Originally Posted by Kaslan
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Repeal only bounces cmc X not X or lessQuote:
Originally Posted by Kaslan
oups ! ture that ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Gatz
Land Tax got unbanned, but I don't think that affects this deck.
That depends upon your rendition. If you're running 8+ basic lands, I would say it's definitely a consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
further, cards like Brainstorm and Scroll Rack are already pretty good with the marquee cards of this deck. They're also really good with Land Tax. Internal synergy is nice.
I think Scroll Rack is too clunky, but Tax is fine as 2 of I think. It synergizes enough with Brainstorm and Jace
It also turns the thresh matchup upside down every time it resolves on turn 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Humphrey
But that's exactly one of the reasons it doesn't seem good. You are resorting to making a play that is pretty much only good turn 1 in that matchup, making their dazes active, and reducing your maindeck active cards by 2. And if you're on the play, they will drop 1 land and just kill you while you're waiting for them to play a second before you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
This deck can't afford to play the waiting game on all axes; We can be responsive, but we absolutely can not deprive ourselves of mana.
Land Tax makes Vedalken Shackles better, and produces more angels off Entreat. I think my issue with the card would be deciding what to cut. My lists already feels pretty tight.
not really, my dude. If you draw the land play the land. What, are you afraid of them searching up tropicals and volcanics when land tax triggers in their favor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknique
another reason to play land tax: you're already running top. MAKE THE WHOLE TOURNAMENT WAIT
It seems decent in the sideboard for opposing control decks or mirrors.
I think Land Tax only works for its controller, and only fetches basics. So even if it did work for Threshold, they wouldn't have any basics to search up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
Land tax triggers in their favor? For obvious reasons I've never played with it but I was under the impression it's one sided, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
So my point is, why play a card (2 of them) that is purely situational, and could potentially be dead? *Dead if your argument is to just play lands you draw, therefore nullifying any effect Land Tax would ever have that game.
Tax doesnt trigger for the opponent dudeQuote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
that was the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
but I'm misremembering EDH experiences with these stupid white cards. Smoked too much weed playing Oath of Lieges.
@Teknique: that's beside the point; it's all redundancy. Having land tax on the board more or less fixes all of the flaws that tundras/wastelands/fetchlands have laid upon you when you're matched up against Thresh.
And I don't think it's a dead card. It makes brainstorm a lot better, as Hawks do.
This is why i'm going to be playing combo in July...Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonius
Anyways, Land Tax seems like a good addition to the sweet list of good cards, but this isn't the deck to really get a ton of mileage out of it. It's a nice trick.
Agreed. I'm sure someone will brew up a list to abuse Land Tax, but it will most likely be a white stax list with Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, Smokestack, and Armageddon, or a list that wants to abuse Seismic Assault, possibly with the help of Life from the Loam.
I think Land Tax is really only solid as a 4-of, because as Teknique mentions, you really only want it on the opening turn. Additionally, against a Thresh list, Land Tax feels bad because they can play with much less mana than UW. What are you going to do when they go first turn Mongoose, you go first turn Land Tax, and they don't drop their 2nd land? Land Tax is a very reactive card with some stringent deck-building requirements, but it is powerful in nature (as is any virtual draw 3). I image if a deck is built to 'break' Land Tax, people will just start playing their lands much more frugally or Ankh of Mishra will see play :)
I understand the temptation to Land Tax-cestral, shuffling away 2 unwanted lands with Brainstorm or Jace, the the realistic response from most opponents is just not to play anymore lands, or to play more non-land mana-producing alternatives.
I guess Steppe Lynx just found his best friend...
EDIT: I've been thinking about this some more and I don't think UW Miracles is the deck that wants to break Land Tax. In order to benefit from Land Tax, we need to be able to do something with those extra cards. Brainstorming away extra lands is a little convoluted (turn 1 Land Tax off a Tundra, turn 2 Brainstorm, fetch?). Also, if we're playing first, we want to hit our land drops, not intentionally miss the 2nd land drop in hopes the opponent will play his/her second land. Do people really play the third creature when Defense of the Heart is in play?
In order to Jace away extra lands, we need to already have 4 lands in play, and most opposing decks can stop developing their mana curves before this.
While UW Miracles does run the requisite color and does run basics, the benefits of Land Tax do not fit this deck. UW Miracles wants to make every land drop. You're better off with Ponder to help smooth your land drops than running a Land Tax. Additionally, Land Tax in a deck without artifact mana acceleration is only really solid on the draw, and in a deck like UW, it would most likely lead to discarding 2 land cards at the end of turn 2 (assuming you selected the full 3).
In addition to the decks I listed above, I could see a 43-Lands shell with Exploration and Manabond doing well with Land Tax (plus that deck runs Mox Diamond) or a White Weenie deck with Flagstones of Trokair that uses Land Tax mainly as a deck thinning agent possibly with some Armageddons to shake things up (Armageddon + Thalia = some good).
Alright, so here's my take on Land Tax. Spells that flow well with LT are marked "+LT"
4 Land Tax
4 BS +LT
3 Terminus
1 SCM +LT (BS)
1 Scroll Rack+LT
3 Jace +LT
3 EtA
4 FOW
4 Top
3 Daze +LT
3 CB
2 STP
2 Path +LT
4 Mox Diamond +LT
3 Chrome Mox +LT (it's nice to pitch early game EtAs and surplus LTes)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
6 Islands +LT
2 Plains +LT
SB:
X B2B
Not sure if it's cooler than regular Miracle Control. I guess I'll give it a spin on MWS later tonight..
EDIT:
Eff this shaz - I'm sticking with straight UW-MC.
I would love to see lists with LT and see some testing, but I am not getting my hopes up. Miracle control decks and LT are complete opposites. The whole point of LT is to use the trigger more than once and use the lands in ways to get more cards, which is the whole thing with scrack. But the whole reason why that worked especially when it got banned in extended was because the deck could play on 2-3 lands only and excel, but this deck would hate that. To spend the first turn to possibly get one trigger to me sounds like a bad idea. This deck needs to play very tight the first couple of turns to make sure the game goes to late game mode where we excel. adding LT would change your moves by leaving the first turn open because u cant play sdt or brainstorm etc, and gives your opponent a chance to win quicker.
Not to say that LT wouldn't work, I just don't think in this style of deck. I do see an LT deck that has miracle cards in it will work because there is synergy, but it wont be a miracle control deck.
+1
I agree. Land Tax has dis-synergies with the current build of UW Miracles. In UW Miracles, you really want to hit your first 3-4 land drops, and Land Tax is too reliant upon artifact mana, play/draw, and your opponent playing more lands than you.
I could see a Miracle deck that abuses Land Tax. Something along the lines of UWR Miracles with Land Tax, Scroll Rack, Sensei's Diving Top, Mox Diamond, Brainstorm, Jace, and Back to Basics. However, that is a different deck, for a different thread.
For those of you trying to break Land Tax (klaus plus others), good luck. And keep us posted...
I do need some help on my list, this is what I am playing right now
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Tundra
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Plains
2 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Oblivion-Ring
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Venilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
-Sideboard-
2 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Engineered Explosives
I played 22 lands for a 60 card deck. Then I splashed a color and added the 23rd card --> 61st card. I am not really happy with it and I am not sure what to cut.
The voice of reason tells me that 3 Spell Pierce would be rather neat aswell but how to squeeze this into it? The O-Ring is a neat G1 feature against SneakAttack and other permanents I couldn't deal with. 2 Snappy 2 Clique are the minimum Id play with those, so no cuts here either. I really have no idea how to trim this to 60 while putting in a Spell Pierce while not destroying my deck-concept...
Any good ideas?
Thanks in advance!
Greetings
Hey Phil,Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
1 Terminus could be moved to the SB: 4 reusable STPs, 1 O. Ring and 3 Wraths are still an insane amount of dedicated creature removal!
-
ATM I'm testing a creatureless version, since I found myself boarding out Cliques more often than not. Also I hardly ever won with non-Angel creatures, so the dmg of those 4 guys seems semi-beneficial.
-3 guys (keeping 1 SFM is kinda classy) + 1 EtA +1 Pierce (=60 cards) could be an option afterall.
-
On a different note: I strongly reccommend the red splash over the green one. Disenchant and O. Ring still handle CB, and so does REB while being more powerful in several top tier MUs.
Hmm thanks for the input, I think I'll have to go through my list once again...
Just in general, let's sum up the purposes of different splashes. In general they make us weaker as we have to add one Ux and one Wx Dual or two Ux which ups our nonbasic-count in any way.
:b::b::b: Through adding Discard the black-splash ups our SneakAttack MUs pretty much, while being useful throughout the combo and control-decks. It offers some anti-creature-mass-removal aswell - even though we might not need it in any way.
good against: Sneak Attack, High Tide
ok against: Mirror, Stoneblade
:g::g::g: While providing not much more than Krosan Grips, it's out of discussion that these are mirror-breakers. If you've tested the mirror a little, you might have realised, that the key to victory is either a CounterTop combo or countering the opponents Divining Top. Grip can solve these problems while still being useful vs Choke and stuff.
good against: Mirror, Stoneblade
ok against: Sneak Attack, Maverick
:r::r::r: Red doesn't add any specific cards for certain MUs but offers one of the strongest counters to the sideboard - REB/Pyro. They are useful for many things - one of them being coutering an opposing Counterbalance.
good against: Canadian Threshold, Sneak Attack, High Tide
ok against: Mirror, Stoneblade
Feel free to correct me and to comment on my thoughts.
Greetings
You could easily get away with 3 Terminus, and 1 in the sideboard if you do run across an aggro deck (Goblins, etc).
:r: also shines against: Dredge, UBx Combo, Merfolk (is supposed to resurface), and surely is better than "ok" in the mirror :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
Understatement of the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Ran some playtest games of UW Miracle Squad vs Sneak Show last nite. -1 SSnare +1 SPierce
Preboard 4 games on the play, 4 games on the draw.
Result:
4-0 Sneak Show (UW on the play)
3-1 Sneak Show (UW on the draw - game lost was due to Sneak Show hitting 1 cantrip and no business over 6 turns)
Post-board 3 games - we ran out of time
3-0 UW Miracle (on the play)
We changed up the Sneak Show's SB plan for Game 3, but didn't have enough time to continue testing since the venue was closing down. Humility and Flusterstorm are the key components here.
Did the exactsame thing last night. UW stood close to no chance in game1 with the occasional lucky win by EtA-ing for lethal at end of turn after having hit 4-5 (yes, that many) counterspells in a row. Guess that's the fringe god draw.
Postboard, it felt much more comfortable, especially with Humility. How did you guys sideboard, Koby?
UW Miracle Squad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
+2 Humility
+1 Counterspell
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Clique
-1 Jitte
-4 StP
-1 SSnare
Sneak Show:
-4 Lotus petal
-2 Intuition
-2 Show n Tell (expecting Humility)
+3 REB
+2 Through the Breach
+3 bounce spell
Lol, sweet, that's exactly my updated Caw Cartel list from the article, cutting a Pierce to get to 60 (and weakening the S&T matchup) while adjusting a SB Pierce into a Flusterstorm. Happy to see others are getting that engine to work :D Congrats to Joe Lossett.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Personally, I've used the CB plan over Hawks for a while now (took down our local GP Trial with it, too, though I got quite lucky to sneak into Top 8 at x-2) simply because I rapidly realized I wanted to run four Tops because of how amazing they are with the miracles, which led to the cutting of cantrips, weakening the Caw engine itself. Once you already run four Tops, not having CB just seems wrong given how many matchups it allows you to blow out (all Delver decks, non-Show and Tell combo, Burn) while Terminus allows you to beat most things that can ignore CB (again other than S&T - though it gives you a way to take over the lategame other than eot Angels).
With that list, Sneak and Show feels close to even game one (admittedly I also run three MD Spell Pierces - I think running less than two MD in control at the moment is wrong, the card is so well positioned it isn't even funny - and more Entreats for eot wins), though still not exactly favorable. As far as boarding is concerned, Humility and Flusterstorm have been the ideal combination for me, too, and with them the postboard matchup has been very solid. Needle has been good, too.
One particular question concerning the results: Is your Sneak list special in any way or are you playing the "standard" list? Because in my experience the deck has a tendency to implode about once every five games and in your sample it only did so once preboard so I'm wondering if this is small sample size, mulligan mistakes with the deck on my part during testing or a superior Sneak build on your part. Maybe the CB version is simply better at punishing minor stumbles from Sneak, though, because those allow you to set up an effective CB lock. What's your experience with S&S self destructs?
Generally very interested in any more results you'd care to share.
@klaus: Jaschar, how does red help against Dredge, exactly? The blue one mana counters (Pierce and FStorm) seem better in the matchup than REB and I honestly don't see Sulfur Elemental being an all-star.
I feel similarly about matchups against UBx combo (aka Storm/Reanimator).
@Philipp802: I hate the Glacial Fortress manabase, especially when you're also splashing. Getting Wastelanded with Terminator is really bad. I currently have five non-basic non-Fetch lands (22 total) and wouldn't ever want to play more than 6 (if I splashed). Drawing more than one non-basic naturally is just so bad against so many decks (Wastelands and Prices, mainly) and imo more relevant than inherent Choke resilience. Also, if I played "bad" Duals for Choke resistance, the first one I'd add is a single Mystic Gate because it allows you to open on Plains and CB on turn 2 (would never play more than one of those, though).
The only other thing I definitely would want to change is having only a single Mongoose removal in the board (the whole RUG matchup revolves around answering Mongeese and I don't think you can afford ETutors there) and no additional spot-removal at all (fast decks and tribal do still exist if only in lower numbers than before). I'd also probably want the fourth CB in the board for Delver and the mirror (against Storm, Tide and Burn just going with ETutor instead should be fine).
/edit: @Koby
Concerning those SB plans:
Did you cut the extra ORing from the UW SB? Otherwise that should definitely be coming in (for the other Spell Snare).
Also, you probably have more experience with S&S than I do, but I feel you cannot afford to take out Show and Tells in that deck even if you expect 1-2 Humility. S&S's best way to victory in my experience is to go off early with some form of protection. Reducing your ability to nut-draw them only to avoid a 2-of hate-card just doesn't feel like it is actually the correct plan (no matter how blow-outy getting Humilitied of off your own S&T feels), especially if they have multiple Cliques that come online if you wait. Having mainly high cost enablers also makes their Pierces significantly more life and will sometimes even give them the time to punch through a hardcast Humility before you could even try to go off. Does your experience with S&S tell you differently?
I really really want to splash black, if only for Baleful Strix. He's insane.
Flame away
@Carsten
I actually tested against Joe in those games, so I don't think either pilot is short on play skill. He updated his SB in direct anticipation of Reanimator and Sneak show en masse. I'm not sure if he continues to play a 2nd O-ring SB, but i don't think it would hurt here.
The deck definitely implodes about 10% of the time - it needs to chain cantrips into the right spells. Games I lose usually my hand's average CMC is 8. It seems the additional 1-2 cantrips (Preordain) help to fix this issue somewhat. Maybe I'm playing the cantrips to their full potential a little better than most (doubt that). Maybe I'm getting lucky draws. The sample is for sure not enough to make SOLID conclusions aside from the fact that Miracle is unfavored game 1.
My S&S build is fairly standard - I've increased the cantrip count to 10 and reduced Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm count to 2 maindeck. Most of the games were won with 1-2 cards in hand - pretty much just going all in against Miracle's relatively few free counts. Games often went like this:
Lotus Petal, Sol-land, Show N Tell, Fow/Misdirection your counter, plop down Griselbrand gg. Other times, it was cantrips 2-3 times to get the right cards, then do the same line of play. Other times, it was grinding out the cards by jamming repeated S&T or Sneak Attacks back to back and sticking one finally.
My SB plan is a bit unorthodox, but cutting Lotus petal is definitely the right call even at the cost of speed. Without the petals, S&S has to get more consistent and can't afford to let Humility show up for free.
Thanks for the info :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
I didn't mean to imply inferior playskill of either player, if it sounded like that, sorry. (though having "sourced" playtesting results is an excellent way to ensure the results are meaningful)
S&S imploding: I guess going up to a cartel-level number of cantrips (ten - I've been using the eight cantrip build so far) does help S&S more than I suspected. Will adjust my playtesting build in the future.
My experience with how the game 1 matchup plays out is essentially the same as yours, just with fewer wins for S&S (though a lot of my wins with UW come from getting down a CB on 3&4 after forcing them into the grind out fight so that might have something to do with it :p).
That experience is exactly why I'm questioning boarding out Show and Tell (I agree, though, that the additional speed of the Petals is unnecessary and the place to make room to SB). I look at it this way: With only two S&T, you are significantly less likely to do anything broken before the control deck is fully online (3-4 mana - which is why I believe Show and Tell to be essential but not the Petals) and have to almost always enter the grind-out fight you described as one of the ways you win game 1.
The problem with that is that you're much weaker at grinding them out now (more counters in their deck, Pierces and Flusterstorms stay life longer now that you can't regularly go off for three mana). I think it might be correct to simply keep in the Show and Tells hoping they haven't drawn one of their 1-2 Humilities by turn 2-3, that way keeping the chance for blow-out wins alive postboard (actually, in testing, that's how I lost the most postboard games - me not having a Humility and them having turn 2 S&T plus backup).
When boarding in three Truths anyway, accessing one after the S&T dropped a Humility into play also seems like a reasonable plan, given that you can now counter-protect the bounce instead of the Show and Tell (they probably allowed that to resolve without a fight if they have Humility in hand, right?). Essentially S&T becomes a binary spell instead of an auto-win: it either wins the game (what it usually does game 1) or it makes you enter the grind-out fight with only three winning combo-pieces (ETruths), but ones that are cheap enough to dodge Pierces/FStorms. Given that the chance they have a two-of in hand by turn 2-3 isn't incredibly high, that still seems like a card worth having in your deck.
Long story short: I feel perfectly fine trying to beat a four-five mana combo-deck with a counterheavy UW deck. The big value of Humility is that it blanks Show and Tell, making Sneak and Show into a four to five mana combo-deck aka the type of deck I'm fine battling against. If you board out Show and Tells, you're doing my work for me, essentially, because I don't even need the Humility now to make you not have a Show and Tell to randomly blow me out with early on.
Just sharing how things look from the other side of the matchup.
Is Spell Pierce actually better than Mana Leak? Spell Pierce is only better on turn 1, other than that it's strictly worse.
Countering Stifles on your second Fetch, protecting your turn 2 play, getting around Daze easier and being able to cast multiples on low mana don't count as advantages? How about not needing to double Stone Rain yourself to keep it up (single Stone Rain is enough)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Buddha
Two mana and one mana are a world of difference at almost any point of the game. That being said, if I were to run more two mana counters, they'd be Counterspells not Mana Leaks anyway.
Pierce is just there to get you through the early game until you can cast unconditional counters. Mana leak doesn't come online fast enough while still being conditional. Anything pierce doesn't hit early you probably don't need to counter, either because you don't care or you can swords/terminusQuote:
Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief
@carsten:
REBs are meant to complement my 3 MD Pierces. Looking at Dredge: REBs counter Careful Study, Breakthrough, possibly Chain of Vapor (on Humility), and kill Narcos (before they get to Therapy you / Dread Return) - overall it's worthwhile to board in at least 2 imo.
Against UBx Combo they buy us enough time to set up CB-Top - countering their cantrips does the trick.
Also I've cut Sulfur Elementals. For reference - here's my current list:
4 FOW
4 BS
4 STP
3 Terminus
4 CB
4 Top
3 CS
3 Pierce
3 EtA
3 Jace
2 O. Ring
(37)
4 Strand
2 Arid Mesa
1 Rainforest
1 Delta
1 Tarn
6 Island
4 Tundra
2 Plains
2 Volcanic
(23)
SB:
1 Pyroblast
2 REB
1 Disenchant
1 Ray of Distortion (undecided)
2 S.Extraction
2 Relic
1 Terminus
1 PtE
1 Jace
2 Needle (undecided)
1 flex slot
I get that REBs are ok against those two decks. Given that builds with different/no splashes should have Pierces/Flusterstorms in those slots, though, I don't feel red really helps you against those decks in comparison - actually, the counters they get are better against Dredge and UBx (given the choice I'd rather be boarding Pierces/FStorms against both decks than REBs). As such Red isn't actually any better against them than the non-red build.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
That doesn't mean the Blasts aren't awesome in other matchups, just that Dredge and UB combo aren't good reasons to run the red splash.
As to your list, I like it though I think you should have a Karakas - so much random value. I also much prefer to have the full four Terminus MD. Two reasons: First it means you find them more often (and against those decks where you need them, you need them early and often need multiples) and second having one in your starting hand is actually quite good (in contrast to the other Miracles). If you don't need to Terminus, it's just as dead as any other form of removal would probably be. If you do need to Terminus, though, you suddenly draw towards seven outs instead of four (Brainstorm and Terminus vs just Terminus).
As for the flex spot, may I suggest something that can kill a Mongoose? I'd probably want two things with that ability in addition to the Termini, actually, now that I think about it.
The 4th Terminus should probably just be the first Path to Exile, as that's what it ends up being most of the time.
What?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
In matchups where you're bringing in PtEs, why the hell are you also siding out Terminus?
Thanks for your feedback, Carsten.
UBx Storm and Dredge were not the reasons I splashed red, sounds like I wasn't being clear above. I meant that (a number of) REBs are good enough to be boarded in in tose MUs.
My actual reason to splash red: S&T.dec, RUG and the mirror (aka. a big chunk of the tier ones). Let's compare FStorm to REB for those MUs, or rather let's see what FStorm can't handle w/o additional counterspells:
* Jace
* CB
* SCM
* Delver
* mid-game cantrips
* late mid-game S&Ts