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You don't have that many lands, so Mox Diamond is not your accelerant of choice. If you go with the splash, Lotus petal(s) and a pair of Plateaus are what you'll need. Otherwise, sub in some Faithless Looting and Goblin Welder for your Bolts and you'll gain more on-color filtering.
The only reason in my mind to splash white is for e-tutor and wear//tear. I like the mono red build to maximize blood moon. I am currently thinking about adding Koth into my list. Thoughts on this updated list.
8 Sol Lands
8 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirt Guide
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Spellskitte
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya
1 Goblin Welder
4 Lighting Bolt
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Blast
2 Koth (could possibly be Chandra Pyromaster)
Board:
4 E-bridge
3 Pyroclasm
4 Thorn of Amethyist
2 Rachet Bomb
2 Red Elemental Blast
Koth's Ultimate can keep board clear on stalls or simply win. Another possible option is the new red hammer to create dudes. Only problem is the akwardness with e-bridge.
So, how many of us are going with the white splash? Do you guys think it's worth it with Blood Moon being so big of a win-con for us?
Tested the white splash, dropped it. I would say that maybe running only white mana main with the E Tutors in the side might not be a bad plan. You could trade 1 for 1 against the moons when you need to pull them out. But still, that eats up 4 of the 15 sideboard slots and I do not know how valuable that would really be.
Still it would give us speed in the games where we can not lock.
Oh, and welcome.
If you are doing the white splash, I recommend running 4 lotus petal over 4 SSG. You can still run some SSGs if you'd like, just when you blood moon your white away, you'll wish the apes were petals.
I disagree, SSG lets you "FOW" and threaten to FOW. If you need your mana on the table at all times, you lose that element of surprise. Also if you have top in play, tapping it and grabbing a Guide at instant speed can save your life.
Well when you have a dead card in your hand when you have a blood moon (e. tutor or and white thing you splashed) you'll wish you did, but that's my opinion of white splash, can play however you want.
This is why I strongly believe that Moon and Tutor should not both be in the main together.
I may test a build with Tutor in the side. Will have a shot at it next week.
Played in a Legacy GPT for GP DC today at Squabbles in MD.
I went 4-1 and was 1st going into Top 8... Where I ran into the Mirror Match (Except he had the Koth Package) I punted game 3 after 30 odd min of hay-makers from both sides. So... =( But still good experience overall.
Some of the Details are a little fuzzy, so don't expect anything extremely detailed.
Round 1 (2-1)- Punishing Jund.
Game 1 - I'm on the play but I don't have a blood moon hand and he answers all my threats. Eventually he ginds me out with punishing fire after getting one or two blood moons out of my hand or countered.
Game 2 - Turn 1 Blood Moon = Concession
Game 3 - I get a Grindstone down turn 1, he never deals with it, and I eventually get a Painter into play that he can't answer. He seemed a little tilted after the Blood Mooning.
1-0 and out of the woods or so I thought.
Round 2 (2-0) - Red Aggro Brew... (This guy top eighted, but I don't think he made it far)
Game 1 - I was on the play, and took a lot of beats until I manged to stick a painter and get down to 2 life. Top Deck = Grindstone and I win on the spot. (Relief)
Game 2 - I side in Ensnaring Bridge and resolve one quickly and get my hand gone... Eventually he Chaos Warped the Bridge, but I had a second in Hand and then it was only a matter of time.
2-0
Round 3 (2-1) - U/W Counter Top
Game 1 - I'm on the draw, the game goes awhile, eventually he overwhelms me with Angels. =(
Game 2 - Goes long but I got there, while going a little long 14 min for game 3. I end up grinding him out after playing Ensnaring Bridge. (This card does work.)
Game 3 - He mulligan, I had a fast grind and I won in 3 turns or so...
3-0 (Really happy at this point, then I get paired down with an 3-0-1 who can't draw in...)
Round 4 (0-2) - Shardless BUG.
So happy to see it's Shardless BUG... but then, things take an turn.
Game 1 - I kept an reasonable hand but not one with blood moon, he has the counter when I try to turn 3 the Moon I naturally draw... and well it just goes down hill from there.
Game 2 - Mulliganed an Nolanader, Mulliganed an 3 blast 2 Land SSG hand, Kept a hand with Turn 1 blood Moon. He has the FoW, and a early Goyf. (Not how this is suposed to go...)
3-1 (Should be a lock for Top 8... but then...)
Round 4 (2-0) - So I can Tie Break in because I'm the highest 3-1 and there are not enough people who can jump me... but my opponent isn't so luck, as he's an 3-1-1
Game 1 - I don't know what he's playing so I keep a reasonable hand with two blasts in it... Turn's out he's playing Splinter Twin Legacy Version. I blast his combo and fetch Jaya who when active will always keep him from going off. Ended up attacking with SSG for the win...
Game 2 - Fully Loaded on Blasts, take out Blood Moon, throw in Manic Vandal and another Magus (for the beats) and proceeded to make sure slow roll my blasts... eventually fetch Jaya again, and basically lock the game until I either attacked in for the win or won via Grindstone.
4-1 (12 Points puts me in First of the Top 8)
Quarter Finals.
Loss (1-2) Imperial Painter Mirror Match X_X of all the things!
Game 1 - I take when my opponent plays an Painter turn 3 while I have Gindstone in Play... (It happens, I did the same thing first time I played this mirror)
Game 2 - Koth shows up to the party and I lose to the mana ability allowing both GS and Painter to happen on the same turn.
Game 3 - This game goes a long long time. Back and forth, 4 revokers, Two welders. I thought I had him when I welded out his revoker, we got back and forth. I never find a GS. He finds 2, but they are revoked by me. I draw Spellskite and say go before I realize what I have done... and he blasts my Revoker next turn after playing Painter. =(
So Yeah I threw it away. =( The goal was learning for me though, as this was only the 3rd event I piloted this deck in.
Thanks man. I'm quite new to Legacy and Imperial Painter, so I'm trying to get to know the deck as well as I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Played at GP Antwerp in the Legacy Championship with IP yesterday.
9 mountain
4 bloodstained mire
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 SSG
4 painter
4 grindstone
3 SDT
2 koth
4 imperial recruiter
4 blood moon
2 magus of the moon
1 jaya
2 phyrexian revoker
4 pyroblast
2 REB
3 lightning bolt
---------------
4 thorn of amethyst
3 pyroclasm
3 ensnaring bridge
2 phyrexian revoker
1 red elemental blast
2 mindbreak trap
r1- Death and Taxes 1-2
r2- Cephalid Breakfast 2-1
r3- Merfolk 2-0
r4- ANT 2-1
r5- RUG 2-1
r6- IP 2-0
r7- Cloudpost 2-1
r8- TES 2-0
Got 2nd into top8 and we split prizes.
I think the maindeck was quite solid. The koth was pretty good as it won me a game against Cloudpost,DxT and the mirror. Its also a nice alternate wincon under a bridge. I focussed my sb a bit more against combo as I expected a fair amount of them. I didnt get to use the mindbreak traps, but I played them over GYhate as I didnt think there would be alot of Reanimator/Ichorid,which was correct. There should be a Manic Vandal in the sb but I didn't find one in time so I just played another REB. The quad revoker were really good. I boarded #3/4 in against all my MU's except for RUG ofc. They were mainly there for LED,Sneak Attack and Griselbrand but they have alot of play,def MVP yesterday.
Greetings,
Johan-
I think some of the views on the white splash are just flat out wrong. The card disadvantage is a moot point is you are winning under a moon. To be honest looking at card advantage is the traditional view is very antiquated and flat out wrong for legacy. Tempo and quality are better than card advantage all the time basically anymore. As such it allows you to win games you never would be able to. And I have hardly had those 3 E tutor kill me because they weren't a lightning bolt. I really think it takes more skill and practice but it gives the deck more versatility without diluting the overall plan and it makes the deck more consistent. And it allows you to play Rest in Peace and Peace Keeper.
Seth
How has Koth been? In my most updated list I am testing with 2 Koths main deck and thinking about changing numbers to cut a welder and a mountain from my list this weekend. Let me know your thoughts.
First Congratulations.Quote:
Originally Posted by rancOr_
I have a few questions about your list though, it seems like you were banking on not having to fight though much disruption or removal since you cut Goblin Welder and Spellskite. Did you ever miss them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sroncor1
Well said. Who cares if you go down a card but it wins the game the following turn. They can't thoughtseize the top of your deck. Plus I just like the space it gives my sideboard. Previously I had a hard time squeezing in everything I wanted. Yes, you will sometimes lay a moon and draw a tutor. The pros far outweigh the cons in my opinion after trying e tutor out.
Also, Koth seems much better than the new Chandra popping up in recent lists. Koth straight up wins under a bridge and the mana ramping of the first and 2nd abilities help smooth out some of the red mana constraints the deck can have. Chandra's ultimate will copy a blast or a bolt. My opinion is that you need to have a ton of blockers clogging the board or a dedicated bridge/instant-sorcery build for her so that certainly warrants some testing.
I will say the sweet black pimp version is kinda cool.
Lastly, I am a big fan of value-stoning and filling my yard for when I get a Welder out eventually. So firebolt is a natural inclusion. Regarding sweeping vs single target: sweeping is a really nice option, I just like my removal to be cmc=1.
On the topic of Chandra, Pyromaster vs. Koth of the Hammer (Is there a way to link these cards other then individually searching and hyper-linking them)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
The reason some people pick Chandra, Pyromaster has nothing to do with the Ultimate, and entirely to do with the 0 Ability. (Think of her as a 4 mana Red one sided Howling Mine with other abilities which are less relevant). I still think having access to another card which closes out games isn't bad so I like Koth of the Hammer a little more but, honestly I think they fill a completely different game plans.
You do [cards ]koth of the hammer[/cards ] without the spaces
koth of the hammer
chandra, pyromaster
I have played both welder and/or spellskite in the past. I like to play this deck controlish with tops/koths/and almost always get painter with recruiter and try to play it with atleast one backup reb. Obviously u can't counter abrupt decay but those decks are pretty weak to moon effects already. But truth be told u almost never get them with Imperial Recruiter. Koth on the other hand (taking those slots) is a great wincondition and has amazing synergy with this deck. I won some games where I would have lost had it been a welder/spellskite. Also won two games with the -2ability although thats rare. And if you ever get the emblem online like under a bridge thats game.. I also dont get why some list run the chandra while Koth is much better in this deck. So basically I switched welder for Koth and have never looked back. GreetingsQuote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
I like your 75 rancor, gonna try it this weekend at the LGS
because there are always some players just copying the previous decklistQuote:
Originally Posted by rancOr_
Is it pretty common to mill yourself (Grindstone) with top in play searching for an answer? I was doing this just trying to dig.
yeah, it is pretty common to do that, I even sometimes mill myself "blindly" for there are so many useless cards in my library in the late game.
besides expecting painter doing nice job in Bom and eternal weekend, good luck to you all!
I do this a lot to get rid of lands from Top. I hate looking at those top two cards knowing I have no use for them.
Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.
In testing this week welder has not been missed too much. Koth on the other hand helps against everything but combo. Drawing extra "mountains" under a blood moon turn into a repeatable point of damage to clear the board or kill the opponent. Current test list:
8 sol lands
4 red fetchlands
8 mountain
4 painter
4 grindstone
4 imperial recruiter
4 simian spirt guide
4 pyroblast
2 reb
3 top
4 bolt
1 jaya
2 magus
4 blood moon
1 spellskitte
1 revoker
2 koth
Sideboard:
4 ebridge
4 thorn
3 pyroclasm
2 reb
2 rachet bomb (thinking about cutting this for another revoker and jaya)
Please share your thoughts as I am trying to tune the list for GP DC.
I'm also working on tuning my list for GP DC.Quote:
Originally Posted by lambert101
Few questions, and or ideas.
I think having access to Goblin Welder is more important then running a 4th Lightning Bolt. If you have a good reason to run a 4th bolt over Goblin Welder or a 2nd MD revoker then go ahead... I just really question if that 4th Lightning Bolt is better then any other option... Another option is to change one Lightning Bolt into an Magma Jet which gives you a little dig ability as well.
Is 3 Pyroclasm and 2 Ratchet Bomb really warranted? This seems like overkill and potentially means you can free up a few sideboard slots for GY Hate or something else relevant. (Also Ratchet Bomb without Goblin Welder seems weaker then it could be)
I'm not 100% sold on the MD Koth of the Hammers myself. I'm in the process of testing this though, so it might be right.
I am not going to say everyone should run it, but I suggest giving some thought to Magma Jet over Lightning Bolt. Costs more, does more. We are a combo deck that has limited access to deck manipulation. Scry is a godsend.
Also a good amount of the common Creatures these days die to 2 damage.
Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.
So I too am gearing up for GP DC.
Here is the list that I've currently got sleeved up, and some of my thoughts and or questions.
Artifacts
4x Grindstone
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Creatures
1x Goblin Welder
4x Imperial Recruiter
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2x Magus of the Moon
4x Painter's Servant
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Spellskite
Enchatments
4x Blood moon
Instants
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast
Lands
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Arid Mesa
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x City of Traitors
9x Mountain
2x Scalding Tarn
Sideboard
4x Thorn of Amethyst
4x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Manic Vandal
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Koth of the Hammer
Here are the questions in my mind.
1. I've seen some lists running 3 fetches instead of 4, does this matter? Is there a reason I should run only 3?
2. Some lists I've seen are running 20 lands, is that correct, or is 21 better? If so is cutting a land for a 3rd MD Phyrexian Revoker reasonable?
As someone who has not personally played this deck/archetype, I was wondering why you wouldn't want to run more R/x fetch lands. One of the known issues with this deck is that it's a combo deck without much library manipulation/card draw. Running additional fetch lands helps get more mileage out of Sensei's Divining Top and they work as traditional mana sources under a Blood Moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
Perhaps...
8 Sol Lands
7 Mountain
5-6 R/x fetch lands
For those of you gearing up for the GP, I'd suggest the list rancor used to place 2nd at the GP Antwerp sunday event. It has no GY hate, and I ran the list at my local today going X-1 and splitting the top 4. It was solid all around, but no GY hate at a GP seems foolish to say the least. WIth my experience, I would suggest this following 75;
8 Mountain
4 Red Fetchlands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Magma Jet
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Koth of the Hammer
Board:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Thorn of Amethist
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Pyroclasm
A quick breakdown:
This is a combo deck that wants to side into the control in certain matchups. eBridge is an MVP.
20 Lands: There's a fine line between acceleration and color screw. I find 8 sol lands correct, but won't fault others in the thread for shaving a City of Traitors. Four fetches play nicely with the four Recruiters to help sift through junk with Top. I used to run two, then three.
rancor's list had 4 Bolts, where I shaved one from my tournament list from today down to three. They were all right, but as previously mentioned, Magma Jet would have been better in all circumstances. The scrye effect is just so good for this deck.
The two revokers MD are great. They give you enough disruption for game ones, and the supplements from the SB also go with the control/dork-beatdowns.
I personally like having two Jaya, as the first one tends to not stick around and then that plan is out the door when it's normally pretty dang good.
No Welders, no GY hate. Fearless. Go with your maindeck Painter/Stone plan, and sideboard into your Big Red control deck when necessary.
This deck cleans up in the loser's bracket so dropping the first round or two isn't the worst.
Playing in my last round today game three against RUG delver, I stick a turn one Blood Moon on the play, then get a hard cast SSG FoW'd :laugh: That was a first.
By my count, this list is only 59 cards. What's missing?Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Also, why do people always opt for more Pyroblast than Red Elemental Blast? Isn't Pyroblast just weeker against Divert? Assuming there isn't a Painter's Servant naming blue on board, a Divert can change the target of a Pyroblast to a non-blue permanent (which then has no effect), while a REB can't be changed to a non-blue target.
This has been brought up a number of times. Pyro can get you under a bridge without a painter in play, reb can only target blue stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainTwiddle
Thank you. I assumed there was an explanation somewhere, but 30 pages is a lot to read through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
I still wonder what the missing card in the above list is, though.
Hmmm, 59 cards wasn't my intention, was just copying the list from the top of my head. In that case I'd say it'd be the 4th Magma Jet, typo.
The list was solid. Emrakul decks are always a problem but everything else is either easy or beatable with good draws and tighter play.
Whipflare is probably better. And affinity isn't a worry per se, I beat it today on the back of Revoker naming Cranial Plating both games. If you get under a Bridge, it's nigh unwinnable for them.
There's no real reason to run Pyroclasm over Whipflare, it might be more of a question of overthinking or card availability. The thing is, Pyroclasm also does work verses decks like DnT, popular here, and they run things like Revokers so it's worth running Pyroclasm. Plus, as you mentioned it's a straight up blank against affinity, which is a common deck.
maybe the 3rd revoker in the main? I run nearly the same list as yours, I am thinking replace 4th bolt/ jet with the 3rd revoker.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
There was definitely a 2/2 split of Revokers between the main and board, it wasn't that for sure. It also could have been the 3rd REB MD. I'm having a hard time with it lol, but I definitely did play with a legal deck!
edit:
It was a lonesome Lotus Petal :rolleyes:
That's what was missing
As someone who has a pulse on the D.C. meta (and more so south of D.C.), I can say to people not to doubt the love of Sneak Show here. I either see Tempo or Sneak Show doing well. On the other hand, Blood Moon is where you want to be in the meta as well as Shardless and BUG Control are also played.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Im just sharing what I have noticed on a common basis.
I'm north of DC and couldn't agree more with this observation. SnT and Shardless are heavily played in the regional meta. Be prepared for easy wins with moon, AND having to deal with the Flying Spaghetti Monster!Quote:
Originally Posted by kavaki
I'm on a tilt wondering how many Tops I should include main-board. I've come to the conclusion that 2-3 is the best number, but I'd like to hear some of the more experienced player's opinions. Is 2 an optimal number of Tops?