You made my day :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
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You made my day :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
wut?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mewens
the hell?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mewens
The conclusion is said: I'll sell my cards. Pro tip: read my previous pro tip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mewens
I wrote about these for several times, if, instead of trying to be clever, you'd rather read the thread before posting...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mewens
I see that you fell in love with word "analogy" and with and idea that people can't use them or w/e. There's nothing bad about it, everybody has some communication twitch, e.g. in my country it's usual to add "ty vole" (literally "you ox") anywhere in the sentence without any intention to offend anyone; it's just a twitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mewens
So, what was your analogy about?
I got this idea that you came here trolling, am I right? I'm not sure what's the trouble to understand that when you lose 2 dollars it doesn't hurt that much as when you lose 60 dollars. Do you need some Power Point presentation to understand what I'm writing about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mewens
That's because you didn't read the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mewens
Then you're troll. Welcome to my ignore list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mewens
If that is the issue the dialog should be whether or not we should be moving towards unsanctioned events, not whether or not we should be supporting counterfeit cards. Well I say we but at this point I don't think that's going to include me for the reasons mentioned already to excess, so "you all". Enough of the community seems to have already made it's mind up and enough people seem to be on the side of "Fuck it, I don't own the cards but I want them so I will support counterfeiting even though it is to the detriment of everyone and everything that has supported the community for the past 20 years," that I don't feel like the game is stable anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I guess that altered cards won't glow, then, as the protective layer is under a new oil/varnish.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
This means that my UNL duals coloured to black to resemble Beta (btw, I should have done this with Revised to make it a "confessed phony"; now it really looks like Beta and p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ Magic players have all kinds of silly comments), it won't glow under UV anymore. Not that I plan to sell them right now, but the day DCI bans the alters from sanctioned events will be the day I'll mourn a lot.
Holmes, what's wrong with you? To me it seems that prateta ordered that stuff to acknowledge how they look like, and to inform all of us what we should take care of. Your posts are beyond ridiculous. Please, sell your stuff and stfu.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
*clap* *clap*Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
The site in my sig is under construction now, but we cooperate with the Centrum for Adictology and also with Anonymous Magicians.
Never. Anyone who orders those samples will be hunted down by dontbiteitholmes and ritually slain at the fullmoon.Quote:
Originally Posted by HonorBasquiat
I have decided to hold off judgement on this whole issue until I see an official statement from Wizards/Hasbro. They are responsible for letting it come to this by refusing to meet the desperate demand for more Legacy cards on the market, and I would like to see them admit that before I condemn the fakes. Legacy has been deteriorating for some time now because of the price inflation. New players who become bored with Standard now migrate to Modern instead of Legacy, not because it is a better format (we all know it isn't), and not because of the support from Wizards (although that helps) but because Legacy has a reputation for being simply too expensive, a niche format for rich kids and old people. If it were not for SCG and BoM, and the two GPs each year, I fear Legacy would be as good as dead already.
This, I think, is why many players have mixed feelings about these fake cards: It is hard to uphold your high moral virtues, when the very survival of Legacy is on the line.
What is the point of owning all these real, expensive cards, if if there are no one to play the game with in the end? Think about Vintage.
We can be reasonably sure that Wizards will try to stop the fakes with every means at their disposal. But at the same time Wizards has done nothing, and for all we know will continue to do nothing, to halt the price inflation and continued decay of Legacy.
It is on this background that it is possible to view perfect fakes as a hope for change, admittedly regrettable in form and not what we hoped for, but change nevertheless.
Was that before or after he told the counterfeiter in a private chat that he should make fake power and sent him $30?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Are we all reading the same shit here?
Because everything ever that people said in Skype is true. Also, I can't imagine how else one may check the fakes than by checking them and then there's that need to order them, but as this thread is a fucking example of ppl's stupidity, I'll just leave it and go browse some adult action...Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
The fact he is too stupid to realize he just placed an order for the fake cards and expressed interest in more printings directly to the supplier doesn't really make it better in my book. Even the people who claim to oppose counterfeits aren't doing anyone any favors. Wow this shit is a mess. Yeah I'm out at this point. I'm gonna call it a night and probably just be done with the game except maybe pauper online which is a top notch time vampire. This is my last post here. Good luck guys, it was fun while it lasted. I hope for the sake of people who enjoy the game (beyond standard) that I am wrong but I have to trust my instincts on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
I agree this might be the best thing that could happen from this. If horders stop hording then it should help the price issue. Even if cards drop 10% though it is still going to be profitable to print fakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
Eh the value of my collection that I priced out last night is about $36000. That's just stuff in binders. 95% of that was purchased oh 10-15+ years ago at less than maybe 20% of current tcgplayer mid price. The market could lose close to 80% of current value and I lose nothing.
Sent from 15 min in the future via Tapatalk Timewarp.
I just spent $1600 building a Legacy Reanimator Deck. Sideboard Show and Tell, the works. I was away for 10 years. When I sold my collection it was right before 5th Dawn and I had playsets of everything from Mirage - Darksteel. I think I got $2200 - $2300 for the collection. (I'm not bragging, plenty of players had x2-x3 as much as me plus duals and power, just showing that I know first hand the price explosion). The most expensive Extended card at the time I believe was Vampiric Tutor, maybe Spiritmonger, not sure. It was around $20. The most expensive Standard card was Exalted Angel, which ballooned to like $30 I believe. Even in 2002 time my parents looked at me like people were crazy for paying $2200~ for a few thousand non-sports cards. With that being said, this just isn't the answer. Maybe short-term could be argued. Except for the guy who saved his money for Tarmogoyfs or Fetch Lands and got ripped by one of the guys from 4chan.Quote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
To contribute another bad analogy to this thread :tongue:, I am into video games and unmarked reproduction labels and boxes are a problem in the hobby. Often times the makers are charging cheap prices and not identifying them as reproduction. That doesn't stop buyers from turning around, replacing a damaged label, and selling it as original. The manfacturers know what buyers are doing. They are enabling fraud.
I am certainly not infallible and haven't considered every scenario and possibility, but I want players to consider the end game of these counterfeits. What happens if they perfect the process? At what point do they stop printing cards? The investment has already been made. The most expensive and time intensive part is a sunk cost. Bulk orders are as cheap as $0.10 a card. Forget Duals, Fetches, and Legacy Cards. Every constructed playable mythic and rare in Standard will be printed. I made a list of the counterfeit cards the from the first pictures and counted 19 Standard legal cards (not counting the Unhinged lands). Why not print Abrupt Decay, Rest in Peace, Pithing Needle, Temple of Deceit, Boon Satyr, etc. Even $2-$5 cards are worth infinitely more than the cost to print them.
Well trust me, your posts are making it sound like you should be taking some pills.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Edit: oh he said he's leaving. The counterfeiters are already improving the game/community :)
Dude take an asperen.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
And if you're really serious, then good riddance.
At first I enjoyed the serious discussion in this thread, but then it became a flame war with people arguing over something they agreed with (wtf and lol).
Keep going guys, this is some serious entertainment :D
Weeeeeeeird!Quote:
Originally Posted by JBlaze
I think you're confused. Something is either illegal or not and one looks at the likelihood of action and potential penalties to assess the value of a potentially illegal action; but this is not justification. One only needs to justify immoral and unethical actions. No one has really raised a convincing case why buying counterfeit Magic cards is unethical or immoral.Quote:
More attempts to justify illegal activity.
Although if we were to discuss the issue of whether something should be legal, the issue of damages would certainly be central and then it would in fact be on you to demonstrate the harm caused by counterfeit Magic cards.Quote:
Stop trying to shift the burden of proof.
Idiots never get tired of dismissing arguments they don't want to hear as trolling, apparently.Quote:
You obviously know the reason's against counterfeiting so your just trolling right?
Yet I just suggested otherwise, strange.Quote:
Yes people listen to pirated music and there has been theft at some magic tournaments neither one has anything to do with the topic at hand.
People violate lots of laws if they don't think those laws are just. You're sort of begging the question here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
You might, but approximately 95% of the internet does and the music industry survives. Why is the case different? In both cases you are cheaply replicating the item of value that someone is trying to sell at a higher cost.Quote:
This isn't pirating music (which I don't do for that matter)
Don't be silly, even a perfectly indistinguishable counterfeit card wouldn't stop you from using your other cards.Quote:
and this isn't Cockatrice. As others have said, Cockatrice hasn't broken MTGO because it doesn't completely throw into question the legitimacy of every MTGO product.
You're not going to get very far into your compelling moral case for why anyone should care if you dismiss motivation and usage out of hand.Quote:
This is rather simple stuff guys. I don't care if you are buying these proxies only for personal use. Pure and simple, you are providing the funding for criminals to release more and better fakes into the market.
But to many people it is in fact about reducing the cost of Legacy, and the game in general. Why the fuck does the "legitimacy and credibility" of individual Magic cards, as you put it, matter so much? People enjoy games with proxies.Quote:
This isn't about reducing the cost of playing Legacy because WotC can (and probably should work on that) and many of us would be in agreement over this. This is about potentially ruining the legitimacy and credibility of every single Magic card you set your eyes on.
You even say you want cheaper Magic cards, which is the motivating complaint for most people who are defending the printing of counterfeits. What if the flood happened without even your awareness and you simply thought the game had gotten more accessible? If you never knew that Wizards had not printed most of the new cards, would you still have been upset?
Serious question: are you a middle aged woman going through your menopause? If not, calm the fuck down.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
@ holmes: please send me a list of the most important stuff in your collection, and an estimate of what you want for it.
1. To deem something moral or immoral, that is your personal value. According to a world-renown famous book, one should not judge.
2. Legal or illegal is not determined by you, it actually depends on the country you live in and the enforcement of the version of the law of that country. Unless you are a judge or lawyer of that particular country, I don't think your opinion matters.
That brings me to the bottom line: your opinion doesn't matter. It really doesn't. Your opinion will not stop counterfeiters from doing what they do, this is driven by the market of supply and demand. If there's a demand for cheaper cards, there will be people around the world making it.
This might be true in a vacuum, but your analysis rather limited in scope. Yes, its good for players to get access to cheaper cards. However, that's not even close to the whole picture here.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
You're argument is that counterfeiting is rampant in the music industry, but that the music industry has survived. That might be a true statement, but its short sighted and really not applicable. First, come on, are you really going to argue that Napster didn't fundamentally change how the music industry operates? The industry responded by increasing protections on its products, moving toward secured digital media, and prosecuting people who where illegally downloading music. That's not to mention the thousands of stores that went out of business as the industry shifted away from the physical medium of discriminating music. I'll grant that part of that shift was related to technological advances, but it was also in part to security/protection concerns (look back at the creation of iTunes).
Regardless of all of that, he's where the comparison falls woefully short - Magic is not the music industry. Since you're primary assertion is increasing access to cards on the cheap, lets assume you're operating with the interests of the players in mind. Magic is a social game - by this I mean that it requires interactions between players. It's also a game that's usually organized and hosted through a LGS. So what happens when LGS start collapsing? If you're argument is true that counterfeiting will decrease the value of the cards that kills margins or even eliminates potential profits that stores can make selling cards. Additionally, for this plan of using counterfeit cards to lower prices, the knowledge of how to locate or get access to these cards would have to be wide spread. This only further incentives people from buying from traditional outlets like LGS. Furthermore, LGS are deterred from selling the counterfeits because they would be sued by WotC if it was brought to their attention and it would likely mean the loss of their ability to host events.
I'll concede that some people enjoy games with proxies but some don't. More importantly, what kind of a selling point is it when you have to tell a new player that the best way to get into the format is to buy counterfeit card? So the new line is let's encourage new players to buy illegal products, but it doesn't matter since we're getting new players into the game and they don't have to pay a lot to do it?
This is a much larger issue than just getting access to cheaper cards. I'm not saying the status quo is sustainable in the long term, but relying on counterfeits is the answer either.
As I understand it, the "proxy" makers in this case make 1,000 of each card. People don't need to order a thousand of a single card or want to buy in the $800 bulk minimum required.
So yeah that sounds like a fine model for local game stores to adopt, selling proxies. If Wizards wants to prosecute them at that point it would be their fault that stores relying on Magic-related income can't adopt to the new technology of distribution.
I already tell people to download Cockatrice, which Wizards shut down. As they shut down MWS. Lotta people on a high horse around here.Quote:
So the new line is let's encourage new players to buy illegal products, but it doesn't matter since we're getting new players into the game and they don't have to pay a lot to do it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fossil4182
http://www.grammar-monster.com/easil...youre_your.htm
I think some people are missing a point about Hasbro and counterfeit eternal staples. Why should Hasbro care? If any thing Hasbro should be happy that there is another source taking up the expense of printing cards to sell to the people who bitch and moan about card prices. The only people being hurt by this is the LGS that have invested in legit cards. If Hasbro wants to demand satisfaction for copyright issues, good for them. Otherwise, this is a secondary market issue, and as WoTC has said time and time again they don't care about the secondary market...
If local game stores are crippled/close as a result of counterfeits, then Hasbro most certainly will care. Sure, there will still be Walmart/Target/Shopko/etc ordering the usual 4 fat packs from them, but I'd wager that the majority of their orders come from specialized gaming shops.
Expensive cards don't have their price tag because of the expense of printing cards, and Hasbro certainly doesn't want underground assistance on the printing front.Quote:
Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke
So basically you think the solution is for all the local gaming stores to conduct illegal activities just to stay afloat? What about really big stores like SCG?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
All the people who bitch about these reprints, and about how unethical it is are hypocrites. You won't convince me that if you buy a playset of expensive Jaces, Tundras or whatever expensive card online, and you receive good looking forgeries, you'll throw them away if it proves impossible to get your money back. You're out of a lot of money, and you still don't have your real cards. 99,999999999% of the people who are waling about it now will use those fakes during a tournament, and will rationalize their deceit to themselves because 'hey', I'm the victim in this'. Same goes for people who see their cards rendered useless the day that Wizards bans altered cards from organized play. They'll tell themselves that they already own legitimate copies, and it's Wizards' fault that they have to buy fake replacements now. Keep your holy rolling to yourselves guys, nobody is stoic enough to suck up a loss like that and just buy new expensive cards.
You're missing the point. Cards cost money to print, packaging costs money, distribution costs money. Someone else doing this at their own expense to pacify a segment of the community is not necessarily bad for Hasbro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
This would only make any sense if the counterfeits were all old reserved list cards. That isn't the case though and new cards are the easiest to forge and they're being forged. We haven't even seen any super high quality old border fakes from this chinese factory yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke
if a LGS does it's due diligence and verifies that they are not buying fakes, they have nothing to worry about. I'm sure they buy products to help ID fake currency, so how hard is it to be equipped to verify high value cards? If a business cares enough to stay afloat, then they will do what is necessary to survive.Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
If a giant retailer like SCG doesn't pay attention, they they will be called out because they are so big. This is called the cost of doing business.
businesses will not be forced to "conduct illegal activities" to stay in business.
The Music industry is a shining example of how music is actually working in favor of consumers for once and how market shifts if offer don't adapt. You can listen to most albums on the website of the band who made it, and decide to finance them in exchange if you want to actually download them, completely skipping distribution and empowering musicians. Or you can buy albums, which, in turn, have seen their prices often lowered because of competitions. They basically had monopolies before, but such situations can't last forever. If demand largely outstrip offers, new offers will rise. Legality or not, see how drugs are basically used by everyone even if they're almost everywhere illegal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fossil4182
And no Legality shouldn't be the end of all. If it were, we'd live in a static society from thousands of years ago when the Sumerian-Accadic civilization was born, but guess what, society was born for the improvement of his citizens, not the other way around.
I'm fairly certain that this entire discussion has been predicated off the notion that the fakes are 100% indistinguishable from the genuine cards; otherwise, we wouldn't be concerned about fake cards as they couldn't even approach the authenticity of real cards. I understand they currently are not 100% indistinguishable, but given time, I suspect that they will become indistinguishable from the real thing. If this occurs, what "due diligence" and verification methods are the LGS to take?Quote:
Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke
ThisQuote:
Originally Posted by UnderwaterGuy
They also diminish the market which can Wizards exploit for premium product. Who would care about FTV with a lack of money staples? There's still enough stuff out there that isn't on the Reserve List and can be reprinted, but Wizards chose not to because they're a bunch of dicks.
Prime example: Force of Will (and Wasteland, to a degree)
Yeah I misunderstood. He wants the LGS to sell proxies while explicitly saying they're proxies. I originally read that and interpreted it as stores buying proxies in bulk and then selling them as the real thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke
I feel that's completely missing the point. The issue here is not booster pack prices, it's the price of cards on the secondary market. Now to be fair, if booster packs cost less, then cards on the secondary market would as well, but it's not the in-print cards that have the prices that are really problematic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
The problem is the price of older cards, cards that Wizards of the Coast no longer makes. Now, if they were just high because they were collectibles, that would be one thing; people often point to the high price of Alpha Birds of Paradise despite it constantly being reprinted. But the reason a lot of these cards are so high is because people use them. No one spends a million dollars on an inverted Jenny stamp in order to use it to mail something. You can just go over and buy a stamp for less than a dollar. You have to spend $100+ to get an Underground Sea. And you don't buy those just to look at, you buy them because you need them to make that Shardless BUG deck or whatever.
And these are cards that Wizards of the Coast has not done much in order to make more available to the community. Now I'll be fair and say they've gotten a little better. The shocklands came back in Return to Ravnica. Mutavault and Scavenging Ooze were in Magic 2014. Thoughtseize was in Theros. And of course there was Modern Masters; while that actually had the effect of making some cards more expensive, a lot were made cheaper, and it was at least a step in the right direction.
However, they've still refused to this day to get rid of the Reserved List. And even ignoring the Reserved List, there's some high price cards that are in demand that they've done nothing to reprint.
In other words, the issue is not the price that Wizards of the Coast is selling the product at; it's the fact they're refusing to make product.
The car manufacturer analogy would be more valid if a car manufacturer had a line of cars that a lot of people wanted to buy in order to drive, but they decided to not make any more of them because some people who already had them didn't want other people to be able to get them. That would be considered insane... yet it's apparently the norm for Wizards of the Coast.
If by "everyone" you mean "less than 10%", at least according to the CDC (source). Now admittedly they could have it wrong, but I'm going to guess that the majority of people do not use illegal drugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
They aren't 100% indistinguishable and a store owner better know how to identify fakes. The fakes are still very important though because 1) They can be used in tournaments and 2) Assholes could shark inexperienced players in trades or sales.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Uh, I know they're currently not 100% indistinguishable. I'm certain I even said as much in all my posts in this thread. However, this discussion has been operating under the assumption that they will be 100% indistinguishable, otherwise, there would be no fear of a market crash, etc. If they were easily spotted as fake, then there's no cause for concern. However, if they can't be distinguished from the genuine article, that's when you have problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderwaterGuy
If Hasbro/WotC wanted to pacify the community's gripes about overpriced cards, they could do it easily, and have sheets of Jaces or Bayous replace sheets of commons, at no extra printing, packaging, or distribution cost. I'm not saying this to be an ass, but I really think that you've got the wrong idea of the finances of this operation.Quote:
Originally Posted by the Thin White Duke
What's cute is some industries are required by law to supply parts and technical support for a product some number of years after production has ceased. Even after they stop making your car, they still have to manufacture new replacement parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
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Originally Posted by Lord Seth
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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer