[OLD] UGw Threshold

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With all that Flash in the air, a lot of people are siding Leyline of the Void; how do you think this will affect Threshold ? In particular, do you think it would still be a good choice in the meta ?

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Yes, the deck is still viable. Only IGGy runs Leyline maindeck; a lot of other decks will be running them but they still need to make room, have in one their opening draw (40%) and still have an otherwise keepable hand. So, the fear of Leyline is more on the order of Fear of the Big Bad Circle.

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Bardo, what is you current post-FS UGW-Thresh list ? (Thanks in advance). Are Mongeese still relevant since they are, with Enforcer, the only Thresh dependent creatures in the deck ? (I'd say yes but I'd like to know your opinions). Are Mental Notes still relevant ? (Predict could replace them ?)

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Post-FS, I'm not sure about my sideboard, but I don't intend any serious changes. It'll probably be much like my Columbus list:

“Grand Prix Threshold”
By Bardo

4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard
3 Armageddon
3 Hydroblast
3 Chill
3 Loaming Shaman
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mystic Enforcer

The maindeck Enforcer can probably come out for something else. Needle and CSpells became Stifle and another EE. Though Stifle has a lot of uses everywhere, even against FS where you can drop it on Kikki-Jikki, Safekeeper/Bodyguard or Carrion Feeder. Still it seems better just to stop their turn off their combo. Honestly I'm not sure which is the way to go.

Re: The Goose. I had the same concern about Mental Note with Tarmogoyf coming into the deck post-FS, but I can't tell how nutty Note is with the Goyf. Actually, I just did.

Turn 1: Delta, pass. EOT crack Delta for Island, Mental Note dredging EE and SV (draw a card).

Turn 2: Heath, crack for Forest, 4/5 Tarmogoyf.

Those plays are easy. In some weird ways, the Goyf is alot like Werebear but ramps up quicker and is doesn't need threshold to be a serious threat. I've won most of my games in the past few weeks with the Goyf with only 4-6 cards in my graveyard. So, assuming that Goyf has a place in the deck and that it has some crazy interactions with Mental Note; then I'd say Mongoose can stay too. He's good against almost everything.

But don't take my word for it. Test it for yourself and I think you'll see what I'm talking about.

Note that the MTS software hates me and won't usually allow me to edit my posts after I submit them. Above, I meant "Needle," not Stifle when I was talking about KJ, Bodyguard, etc.

Mods - Feel free to merge the posts.

Thanks for the decklist. Like you, I have switched Needles for EE mainly because of the good number of Empty the Warren decks (Belcher, TES) in my area. They have also helped against Fish decks, which might gain popularity these days.

Does Armageddon need to occupy three slots in the sideboard ? Solidarity seems to be declining in numbers. Are board control decks like Landstill making a comeback and thus justifying the geddons ?

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Originally Posted by aTn

Thanks for the decklist. Like you, I have switched Needles for EE mainly because of the good number of Empty the Warren decks (Belcher, TES) in my area. They have also helped against Fish decks, which might gain popularity these days.

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EE is also worth its weight in gold vs. Chalice. That's another principle reason to increase the number of copies you're running.

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Does Armageddon need to occupy three slots in the sideboard ? Solidarity seems to be declining in numbers. Are board control decks like Landstill making a comeback and thus justifying the geddons ?

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Mostly they're for any kind of slow control deck, such as Landstill, Rifter, Tog, IBA decks as well as turn storm combo. But, hrm, maybe they're out-dated, but for something the size of the GP, I would keep them.

I wont be going to Columbus, because my team refuses to play against Flash. So far, what I have is...


// Lands 17
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island


// Creatures 12
4 Meddling Mage
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear


// Spells 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Disrupt
3 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares


// Sideboard 15
2 Krosan Grip
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Armageddon
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Disrupt


ehh.... I dont expect Goblins. Thats it. I dont expect a deck like Goblins to be at the GP. I expect only Flash and Flash-hate decks. For Hanni Fish, I lessened the number of Swords to Plowshares because their Meddling Mage usually ends up calling Swords to protect Confidant. EE is a bomb against them. I dont usually think they would call a 3-of. If they do call EE, then my Swords will Plow opposing Mages so EE becomes effective.

As for Flash, it seems I was mildly prepared for it. I tested Counterbalance, and I loved it agaisnt Flash. I dont think people knew what they were talking about when they say it's slow. When you build your deck to be full of 2cc cards, blind flips from Counterbalance can do so much for you. Besides, Mage enough time to set it up against them.

So far, the boarding plan against Flash is

-1 Forest
-1 Nimble Mongoose
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-3 Engineered Explosives

+3 Counterbalance
+2 Sensei's Divining Top
+2 Disrupt



Disrupt is amazing, but it's only good for the earlier part of the game. I might cut the 4th Disrupt for a 4th Counterbalance. Counterbalance is great because it protects itself by countering Mystical Tutors which finds bounce for Mage or Balance'. Counterbalance keeps them from recovering by creating a soft lock.

I think it's overkill, because you are already running 4 daze, so you got 6 (!!) Early-Game counters which just suck later and actually can only be pitched into a Force then.

Then there is the lack of Swords to Plowshares... everyone here says that StoP is the best removal, so why cutting them? EEs can't handle a 1st Turn Lackey and i think that's the point for me to run 4 StoP.

The rest of the build is acceptable. In my aggressive build which maindecks Jotun grunt I also began to run Stifle, because it can do (as HanniFish had shown) broken things and is never dead, because it can also do some tricks with Jotun Grunt.

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Originally Posted by Adan

I think it's overkill, because you are already running 4 daze, so you got 6 (!!) Early-Game counters which just suck later and actually can only be pitched into a Force then.

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Yeah, but against Hulk Flash, your going to need what you can get.

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Then there is the lack of Swords to Plowshares... everyone here says that StoP is the best removal, so why cutting them? EEs can't handle a 1st Turn Lackey and i think that's the point for me to run 4 StoP.

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I already explained my reasoning here.... Hanni Fish will call Swords to Plowshares against you. Only decks I said to expect would be Hulk Flash and Hulk Flash-hate decks.

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The rest of the build is acceptable. In my aggressive build which maindecks Jotun grunt I also began to run Stifle, because it can do (as HanniFish had shown) broken things and is never dead, because it can also do some tricks with Jotun Grunt.

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I might cut the Disrupt for them actually.

I see that you think Thresh is still a solid choice, and I can't really disagree, but is there a reason to run it over, say, UWb fish? Black seems to give so much more than green, and not having Leyline destroy your clock seems extra relevant these days.

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Originally Posted by Phantom

I see that you think Thresh is still a solid choice, and I can't really disagree, but is there a reason to run it over, say, UWb fish? Black seems to give so much more than green, and not having Leyline destroy your clock seems extra relevant these days.

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Flash is a good matchup for thresh and leyline is not necessary. Most fish decks are weaker IMO because they try to run very few lands with very few cantrips to back them up.

What about sideboarding 4x Extract against the Kiki//Hulk Flash deck? I haven't seen the Kiki version as much as the Disciple, but don't most only run 1 copy of their combo card?

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Originally Posted by Awesomator

Flash is a good matchup for thresh and leyline is not necessary. Most fish decks are weaker IMO because they try to run very few lands with very few cantrips to back them up.

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I was talking about Leyline hurting Thresh, not running it themselves, but surely you would agree that having the option to run Leyline can't be a bad thing? I have been assured that it is a quality hate card against Flash.

I'm not sure I understand your last comment. I'm not talking about netdecking here. I would assume that each person would run the build they are comfortable with (for you that would apperently be a higher land and cantrip count).

Note that I'm not being a dick, I'm genuinely interested in the debate. I'm just having trouble seeing how 'goose and Werebear with Grip coming out of the board) are better options in the current meta than Duress and Confidant (with Therapy, Leyline, and Plague coming out of the board) especially with uncounterable graveyard hate on the rise.

Is it non-Flash matchups you favor Thresh for?

I've been favoring Fish over Thresh because I think it has just as good tools as Thresh and Confidant lets you rebuild after your counterwar with Flash.

Since Fish and Thresh usually run the same amount of lands, (17, some Thresh lists run 18 and I ran 18 lands in Fish before Flash) I don't see the weakness there. The difference is, as was stated, Thresh just runs more cantrips to find lands and Fish finds theirs through Visions, Brainstorm, and Bob, the latter of which is a continual fountain of threats.

I think either deck works well in the current meta to combat Flash, but I think Thresh will be hit harder by all the Lelines that are sure to be out and about.

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Originally Posted by Phantom

I see that you think Thresh is still a solid choice, and I can't really disagree, but is there a reason to run it over, say, UWb fish? Black seems to give so much more than green, and not having Leyline destroy your clock seems extra relevant these days.

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Black is better than Green. The reason why Threshold was ran back then was solely because of Aggro. Now thats out of the way, Fish is just better. However, there are many variants of Fish I am still trying to crack.

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Originally Posted by Anarky87

I've been favoring Fish over Thresh because I think it has just as good tools as Thresh and Confidant lets you rebuild after your counterwar with Flash.

Since Fish and Thresh usually run the same amount of lands, (17, some Thresh lists run 18 and I ran 18 lands in Fish before Flash) I don't see the weakness there. The difference is, as was stated, Thresh just runs more cantrips to find lands and Fish finds theirs through Visions, Brainstorm, and Bob, the latter of which is a continual fountain of threats.

I think either deck works well in the current meta to combat Flash, but I think Thresh will be hit harder by all the Lelines that are sure to be out and about.

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What I'm saying is since you run 17 lands, Thresh is much more capable of keeping a one land hand, Or recovering from LD. Flash is a good matchup for both decks. I feel more confidant that Thresh will remain more consistant throughout the 16 round tourney. Leyline is extremely solid vs Thresh which will be in the majority of decks. I WAS playing gobbos until this nonsense came up, now idk. I was playing netdecked and untuned builds of fish when it was tested and will look into it more. Leyline isn't necessary vs flash when playing fish, but it doesn't hurt, especially since it's good vs Thresh.

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Originally Posted by Awesomator

What I'm saying is since you run 17 lands, Thresh is much more capable of keeping a one land hand, Or recovering from LD. Flash is a good matchup for both decks. I feel more confidant that Thresh will remain more consistant throughout the 16 round tourney. Leyline is extremely solid vs Thresh which will be in the majority of decks. I WAS playing gobbos until this nonsense came up, now idk. I was playing netdecked and untuned builds of fish when it was tested and will look into it more. Leyline isn't necessary vs flash when playing fish, but it doesn't hurt, especially since it's good vs Thresh.

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Everyone seems to be packing Leyline of the Void main deck or at least in the sideboard. Thats a reason why I think I would rather play Fish at this point to hate against Hulk Flash. It seems in testing that Fish is just better against Hulk Flash partly because you run stifle,meddling mage, and dark confidant is great at drawing more answers each turn.

It's unfortunate that Hulk Flash is going to warp the Legacy metagame for the GP. I'll be glad when the June 1st banned/restricted lists will come out and get rid of this deck once and for all.

I know it's not suppose to belong here, but since every deck is going to pack Leyline, why not swap Bears and Geese for Dryads and Grunts?

Hello everyone, I am new to this site so take it easy on me! My concern is for the Grand Prix Columbus on Saturday May 19, 2007. I was very content with my Life from the Loam deck that completely destroyed aggro, and no problems against control match ups such as Thresh. But like always you test for weeks, and suddenly a new deck hits the format that draws everyones attention (HULK FLASH) and now my deck loses. I placed 9th at the Trial in Columbus on the 29th.

Well now i have switched to my 2nd favorite deck... THRESH G/W/U.
my build is as such:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

4 Serium Visions
3 Predict
3 Mental Note
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm

3 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island

The deck has grat matchups V.S. Combo, and with a good board can handle the aggro match ups.... I HOPE!

So give me some thoughts and Ideas on the deck that should Conquor GP COLUMBUS!

If there is an increase in the number of SB Leylines, should one put more K. Grips in the SB (or maybe Naturalize or Ray of Revelation) ?

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Originally Posted by DEADMAN01

The deck has gr(e)at matchups V.S. Combo, and with a good board can handle the aggro match ups.... I HOPE!

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Speaking of boards, what does yours look like ?

@ Deadman - Looks pretty stock, though I'd see about getting that Daze to 4, probably -1 Counterspell. You might also consider just dropping all of the remaining CSpells and running Stifle instead. The 1-of Needle and EE aren't bad or good; but I'd make a judgement and go with 2 of one and none of the other.

My current list, which beats of Flash viciously:

"Hulk Slayer" aka White-Splash Threshold
by me

// Spells
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Meddling Mage

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Hydroblast
SB: 3 Armageddon
SB: 3 Chill
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 Mystic Enforcer
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

Those Goyfs should be Werebears for the GP, obviously.

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@ Deadman - Looks pretty stock, though I'd see about getting that Daze to 4, probably -1 Counterspell. You might also consider just dropping all of the remaining CSpells and running Stifle instead. The 1-of Needle and EE aren't bad or good; but I'd make a judgement and go with 2 of one and none of the other.

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ok for my understanding of the deck, considering i just picked it up 2-3 days ago, is that Daze is amazing early game, and eventually turns into the Pitch card for FOW.

you talked about a while ago that running MD counterspell was pointless due to the fact that when you cast it, you obviously winning anyways. I agree with you there

I like your build, but i think i will run cut 1 stifle for 1 enforcer, and how come you chose to not play predict? This card is amazing for thresh, for 1 it draws you 2 cards if you stack accordingly, and also if your opponents flash deck is running slow, and they tutor a flash/hulk to the top of library, why not predict them... now i know i seem to be concerned with the hulk deck, when in all reality i don't think it is that great..

What do you all think of Twincast vs TPS... copy the storm spell, win first or make more goblins than they did, comming out 2 ahead!

i do run sb hate for leyline, my SB is as follows:
3 BEB
3 Chill
3 Geddon
2 K-Grip
1 Enforcer
1 Pithing Needle
2 Twincast

any comments on this?

I don't like the Twincast plan. You have FoW, Daze, Stifle and MMage to deal with Solidarity and TES (by the way, TPS is an 'old' Vintage deck and I've never heard of it in Legacy, maybe I'm ignorant). Twincast seems like overkill. If I were you (and assuming you are playing Bardo's build), I'd probably put Shamans if you expect appropriate match-ups (Thresh, etc.) or Needles, if you excpect a lot of Goblins (Chill is nuts but if they have Vial in play, its not that hot, so Needle completes the 'lock' - there's at most four Vial activations you can Stifle assuming no Gruntiness permitting reoccurence, so Stifle is shit in that case).

ok Shammi sounds good for the board over the twincast idea... but on the other hand overkill does seem to be ok, i mean to watch there jaw drop would be priceless... and no i am not running Bardo's build... i have my own, but i like some of his ideas.. although i had thought of them as well, i just haven't tested very much with thresh, considering i just picked it up litteraly 2-3 days ago, and i just officially put it together last night, but anyways i really like the build and structure of GWU thresh, it seems to be able to handle alot of matchups... pre and post SB. might lower the geddans and cut 1 chill for 2 tividars crusade..

more ideas would be helpful

@Bardo...

What's your sideboard plan versus Goblins with your last build of the deck ("Hulk Slayer")? I used to remove Counterspell to make room but now there are gone for Stifle, what do you remove?

And by the way, if you have some time, I would appreciate a quick sideboarding guide since I plan to play in a Tournament this sunday (Tarmogoyf are legals,... YES!!)

I just realized that no one responded to AntiAmerican's suggestion of dryads and grunts...While they aren't as good maindeck (imho), I think I'll try to fit a playset in the board for game 2 (boarding out bears). That way I can at least somewhat dodge a boarded leyline.

However, if anyone thinks the whole tournament will be flash and anti-flash decks I believe that is the incorrect mindset. While I imagine those will be the decks that do the best, there is sure to be quite a bit of randomness early on (just like every Legacy tournament). For those random decks, I think I'll stick with the regular 2 maindeck counterspells, since I'd rather not get randomly wrecked by deed out of nowhere.

Finally, with Flash around, what is the best grave-hoser for the board? I've been running 2 grunts and 2 crypts, but crypt now hits a subset of flash decks (Kiki-jiki combo). What do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

I know it's not suppose to belong here, but since every deck is going to pack Leyline, why not swap Bears and Geese for Dryads and Grunts?

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I'd say 'ok' for Dryads but 'no' for Grunts. With the increase of Fish and Leylines, odds are you'll have to dig into your opponent's grave with Grunt and if your opponent plays, say UWb-Fish (or another deck with Grunts and Leyline), your Grunts will not stay long on the board because graveyards are going to empty fast (even with 4 MD Stifles). For the pre-june 1st meta, I'm going to switch to UWb-Fish (and I'm pissed that I'm not going to be able to use my Goyfs till Flash gets the boot).

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Originally Posted by aTn

I'd say 'ok' for Dryads but 'no' for Grunts. With the increase of Fish and Leylines, odds are you'll have to dig into your opponent's grave with Grunt and if your opponent plays, say UWb-Fish (or another deck with Grunts and Leyline), your Grunts will not stay long on the board because graveyards are going to empty fast (even with 4 MD Stifles). For the pre-june 1st meta, I'm going to switch to UWb-Fish (and I'm pissed that I'm not going to be able to use my Goyfs till Flash gets the boot).

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Yeah.... same here. I love Goyfs. I'm calling them Steve McQueen.... Bullit is a badass movie, and McQueen is badass.

If you're going to play this deck at the GP, find a way to avoid Leyline, and run your own playset as well. I'd personally run 4 Dryads in the board, alongside with probably EE or Shackles.

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Originally Posted by Solpugid

I just realized that no one responded to AntiAmerican's suggestion of dryads and grunts...While they aren't as good maindeck (imho), I think I'll try to fit a playset in the board for game 2 (boarding out bears). That way I can at least somewhat dodge a boarded leyline.

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Let's take Bardo's deck....

With his deck, my SB would probably be

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Krosan Grip
2 Armageddon
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Quirion Dryad
1 Engineered Explosives

Against Aggro-Control, my plans would be

-4 Bears
-4 Geese

+3 Shackles
+4 Dryad
+1 EE

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However, if anyone thinks the whole tournament will be flash and anti-flash decks I believe that is the incorrect mindset. While I imagine those will be the decks that do the best, there is sure to be quite a bit of randomness early on (just like every Legacy tournament). For those random decks, I think I'll stick with the regular 2 maindeck counterspells, since I'd rather not get randomly wrecked by deed out of nowhere.

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Not to mention a topdecked Enforcer....

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Finally, with Flash around, what is the best grave-hoser for the board? I've been running 2 grunts and 2 crypts, but crypt now hits a subset of flash decks (Kiki-jiki combo). What do you guys think?

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Ground Seal is probably better against Kiki Jiki.... since those builds are naturally slower, Crypts become dead. Seals at least replace themselves.

I've seen a lot of people posting lists (here and elsewhere) that are designed to beat (or have good game against) hulk-flash. But most of those lists run mental note. After having done some testing yesterday with a portent version I can say that I think many of the matches would have been lost if I didn't have the extra dig power.

Also, keeping 2 counterspells maindeck turned out to be the right call. Having two additional hard counters available which my opponent (despite the version of flash played) did not have gave me a stronger late game than flash (screw inevitability).

As for naming cards with mage (and I'm not sure how much this has been discussed already), the first should name flash (obviously) and so should the second, at least game one. Having two down chanting flash forces your opponent to dig for echoing truth before going off. If you suspect your opponent is specifically searching for bounce you might consider getting in a counter war over lim-dul's vault.

Post board the scariest card was not leyline (I would LOVE to see flash players board in leyline against us) but massacre. A board sweep, which at least kills your mages, for free is just brutal. So, if you know your opponent is boarding them in, the second mage in game 2 or 3 might just want to chant massacre. This leaves you susceptible to wipe away, but that's one or two cards as opposed to 3 or 4 FREE cards in massacre.

When I play against Flash, that is what you should name with Mages. Also, Spell Snares are sweet. I cant express my love for them enough. I'm testing them in the Counterspell slot, and they counter everything Counterspell would counter, but can counter Confidants on the draw.

In game 1, I like to name Lim-Dul's Vault with the 2nd mage. Then just save counters for the bounce spell. In game 2, I name Massacre with Mage #2.

I like the Game 2 plan. The Game 1 plan with the 2nd Mage is very debatable.

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Originally Posted by aTn

I'd say 'ok' for Dryads but 'no' for Grunts. With the increase of Fish and Leylines, odds are you'll have to dig into your opponent's grave with Grunt and if your opponent plays, say UWb-Fish (or another deck with Grunts and Leyline), your Grunts will not stay long on the board because graveyards are going to empty fast (even with 4 MD Stifles). For the pre-june 1st meta, I'm going to switch to UWb-Fish (and I'm pissed that I'm not going to be able to use my Goyfs till Flash gets the boot).

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6 months a go, in my local meta when graveyard hate was at a ridiculous high I was swapping out bears for dryads and just busting face. I like the mongoose so much in the face of targeted removal and would probably removal the enforcer's and a few of the geese for Grunt's if I was running them in the board too. NOTE: Enforcer can be key for certain matches so be careful when you remove him.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

6 months a go, in my local meta when graveyard hate was at a ridiculous high I was swapping out bears for dryads and just busting face. I like the mongoose so much in the face of targeted removal and would probably removal the enforcer's and a few of the geese for Grunt's if I was running them in the board too. NOTE: Enforcer can be key for certain matches so be careful when you remove him.

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Enforcer is basically one of the reasons why I play White. The other two are SB and Swords. Enforcer swings games around-but it's very dependent on the match-up.

I would be abliged to aggre with Anti... enforcer is the only reason to run the white splash... red gives you more creature removal/reach... while white gives you enforcer swords and mage (mage to a lesser extent, unless you are playing combo... then it becomes the bomb)... I have been finding that the white splash has a much better fish MU than the red splash (can deal with grunt before they take our thresh)...

what have you guys been doing in order to take care of the sudden increase in fish throughout the american meta?

I have been finding that more creature removal in the MD is necessary, and I have taken needles out of my MD for my fourth stifle and to get my cantrip base back up to 15.

I think Anti and I are on the same page, except he is a bit more of a fan of enforcer and I less. However, we both say the same thing: it depends on your matchup.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

I would be abliged to aggre with Anti... enforcer is the only reason to run the white splash... red gives you more creature removal/reach... while white gives you enforcer swords and mage (mage to a lesser extent, unless you are playing combo... then it becomes the bomb)... I have been finding that the white splash has a much better fish MU than the red splash (can deal with grunt before they take our thresh)...

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I would like to defend Red Gro's Fish match up though. If you run Wastedlife's old UGr Gro deck, it beats the everloving shit out of it. I know many may not believe it's true, but it's very hard to protect Confidants, Mage, and Moms when dealing with 11 Burn spells MDed. Generally, you let should have more draw power than Fish to consistently win counterwars against Fish if you have a Burn spell for Confidant so that Grunt doesnt resolve.

Against Combo, I personally dont like Meddling Mage all that much. With so many cantrips, finding an answer is easy. Solidarity and IGGy Pop will always be your best match-up. TES is questionable, and is very skill dependent on the Threshold player's part-running Meddling Mage or not. Knowing what resources to aim when analyzing the board state and piecing together the TES player's hand will always challenge the Thresh player.

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what have you guys been doing in order to take care of the sudden increase in fish throughout the american meta?

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Actually, Enforcer is the reason why I love playing against Fish! I'm currently am undefeated agianst Hanni Fish, and dont plan to stop doing so. Enforcer and Needles are amazing. I also love siding in my Engineered Explosives as well as Nantuko Monasteries, 3rd Enforcer, and Counterbalance.

Thankfully, with the lack of Vial Goblins, I feel that it's safe to run Meddling Mage over the Needles. Stifles shouldnt be in the deck, it's bad agianst Fish.... If you're going to replace Counterspell, run Spell Snare instead. I remember losing a game to Counter Slivers, simply because my Stifles cant counter their "Pump/Shroud" Slivers.

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I have been finding that more creature removal in the MD is necessary, and I have taken needles out of my MD for my fourth stifle and to get my cantrip base back up to 15.

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I dont run Meddling Mage sadly. I do play with the full set of 14 Cantrips + 2 Sensei's Divining Tops.

If you feel that you need more creature removal, why not play something that dominates the board; not only will you gain some control over the board, but also win. I'm thinking Vedalken Shackles, but then again, Nantuko Monastery is uncounterable. Personally, I prefer Monastery. IMO, it's the Control Magic of the White build. Only difference is that it cant take Enforcer, but in return, you get a proactive threat (unlike Control Magic which is reactive), and is a win condition that pressures before any move is made.

@Jazzykat: You're right. We're on the same page, but the only difference is that I do value Enforcer more highly than most people. I feel regret everytime I side him out during a match, thinking I can win.... we know that's not true. Enforcer does well in matches where I should've left him in. I remember siding out Enforcer in testing against Fish, and that went out horribly. I lose because appaerently, the more time I give them, the more they they get to recover and control the game. Usually when the game is stalled, they're in a horrible position. My mistake is not ending it before it became a problem.

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I'm currently am undefeated agianst Hanni Fish, and dont plan to stop doing so.

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I've seen you say this like 20 or so times on this thread. Is it a good decklist? Is it a good player? My Thresh matchup used to be like 70/30... now that Flash is dominant, my Thresh matchup has gone to like 80/20. Wanna playtest sometime? Send me a PM. :wink:

Not only that, but since when has Fish (besides right now because of Flash) been enough of a metagame concern to constantly bring it up? I would think that improving the Goblins matchup would be far more important (again, except for right now because of Flash).

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I've seen you say this like 20 or so times on this thread. Is it a good decklist? Is it a good player? My Thresh matchup used to be like 70/30... now that Flash is dominant, my Thresh matchup has gone to like 80/20. Wanna playtest sometime? Send me a PM. :wink:

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Sure, I'd love to. Decklist is generic. Player is questionable. I've seen many Threshold players screw up.... same way the Fish player screws up. I am just suprised at how much I lucksac against them.

Also, why not you AIM me up Hanni. My SN is obviously in my profile. AIM me up, and we can playtest a few games and stuff. My Computer is like... godawfully slow on MWS, so we may have to literally (and super old school) pick up the cards on MWS, and shuffle... since starting an actualy name game is kinda slow on my comp. This may have happened due to my excess habits of playing Poker at the same time with everything.

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Not only that, but since when has Fish (besides right now because of Flash) been enough of a metagame concern to constantly bring it up? I would think that improving the Goblins matchup would be far more important (again, except for right now because of Flash).

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I see improving the Goblin MU pointless. Thought, the newer tech with 8 Red Blasts does merit some testing in for meta prep.

But yes, Fish is a meta concern, because it beats so many decks. Flash is also a concern because it beats so many decks.... Because of Flash, Fish is now the #1 worry for this deck. Flash is probably a better MU for Thresh than Fish, IMO.

Well, I was talking about before all of this Flash nonsense. Before that, UWb Fish wasn't even on the American metagame radar at all (Germany was the only place where I've seen the deck make multiple Top 8's). I understand completely why it would be a concern for Threshold now, but I'm not even sure Threshold is going to be a strong choice with all the Leylines floating around. Alot of decks are MD'ing Leylines, like many B/w Deadguy and Goblins lists, and almost everyone has them sideboarded. Gro is a strong option (drop Werebear for Dryad) since it gets around Leyline a little (your Mongooses still suffer), but then we aren't discussing Threshold.

I don't agree that Thresh has a better Flash matchup, but I can see points for both decks (Fish and Thresh). However, 3 Grunt + 4 Leyline out of Fish's board in combination with everything else Fish is running now (like MD Duress) really seems bad for Thresh.

If I were going to run Thresh at the GP, I'd actually run URg Gro with Dryads and Dragonauts... but that's just my personal opinion.

Depending on how many flash decks you run into playing thresh, leyline may not even be a concern. Flash players who side them in make me very happy, as the card does next to nothing and forces them to side out key control/acceleration cards.

As for leylines in the board, that's the beauty of running quirion dryads in your board for game 2.

Leylines maindeck: in fish this can lessen the overall effectiveness of the deck, allowing thresh to win regardless. If it's maindecked in goblins...well, that matchup wasn't even favorable in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

If I were going to run Thresh at the GP, I'd actually run URg Gro with Dryads and Dragonauts... but that's just my personal opinion.

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Dragonauts seem ok, but I'm considering a build with MD Isochron Scepter as my finisher. It is anti-duress protection but can run into all those random stifles that are flying around these days.