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Yes, it includes FoW itself, and even tho' 16 blue cards seems low in this format for FoW, if you've played Vintage, it's the standard for including FoW in combo decks. Whether or not you want to RFG Breakthrough is irrelevant, if you can trade 2 cards in exchange for your opponent's entire hand and not immediately losing the game, I'd RFG Ancestral Recall if I had to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bovinious
I'm not quite to the point of tossing my support behind Force of Will, but if it comes down to a choice of pitching Breakthrough or letting someone resolve Crypt/Planar Void/Something Else on turn one, I'd take pitching Breakthrough.
I think what will ultimately keep Force out, however, is Leyline of the Void. This prevents Force from actually solving the whole problem of never knowing exactly what to board in, as Force can't stop Leyline.
You missed the point, FoW isn't SBed in as an answer to the opponent's hate, FoW is SBed in as a bullet to the opponent's strategy (LED + FoW=Mind Twist). You certainly could SB in FoW to deal with the opponent's hate, but FoW is to Storm combo as Leyline is to Graveyard combo, you just want to SB the card in and take your free win. FoW may or may not be good against the opponent's hate and Leyline may or may not be good against Mogg Fanatic etc. but regardless it's an incidental consideration in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Well his turn 3 kill happens. You had at least 2 turns to finish him off which means mulligans should be important to you here. Also, never sb out Zealot against combo. It makes your clock a turn faster. When your playing against a deck that has a win possibility turns 1-2 you should be concerned with racing them. I ususally only take out zealot in control matchs.Quote:
Originally Posted by thelemite
I play four Chalice of the Void in my current sb. It deals with TES quite well, especially when youre playing Gamble to make your virtual CotV count 6-7. Chalice also handles Extirpate which you should be more concerned with frankly. All current landstill decks pack it and most black aggro decks do as well. Leyline isnt the favored approach to combat this deck. Just since its the best doesnt mean people are willing to make accomidations for it.
The "TES" deck you played against second doesnt sound like your run of the mill build. Most versions utilize the sb space for wish targets, Shattering Sprees, and REBs.
You have way too much Leyline hate in your board. Get your fourth Leyline in there and consider CotV. Good luck.
Regarding Force of Will.
Instead of arguing against Breathweapon I recommend you just listen to the people that are seasoned with the deck. Force of Will is awfull against Tormods Crypt since you can often just play through it or go for 1 for 1 trades against it. (Ancient Grudge, Chain of Vapor) Even better Pithing Needle goes 1 for 4 against crypt.
Force does nothing at all against Extirpate and becomes useless if a TES player simply Chants you first. Is this 'element of surprise' really worth the wasted sb slots and possibility of not having the blue card? NO.
Force does nothing against Leyline.
Chalice of the Void is amazing against Extirpate, amazing against Tormods Crypt, and amazing against any deck you play against that has 15+ 1cc cards in it.
The fact that CotV is free makes it actually synergistic with your deck..
Do I need to go on?
Here is my current sb for reference.
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Pithing Needle
I have no clue what you just said.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
He is saying that you don't SB FoW to fight their hate, you board it in to fight their combo. Just like they are boarding LotV to fight your combo.
Game2 they are going to combo out as soon as possible, and if you can pull off countering the right stuff, they are pretty stuck, while you either win, or find a Chain for the Lleyline and then win. Whether or not you bring in FoW, a resolved Lleyline is a beast to win through, especially when they can combo whenever because you're unable to apply any pressure. If you can stop their combo, however, LotV becomes easier to deal with, as you aren't pressed as hard for time.
If Storm combo SBs in Leyline of the Void, I think your just legitimately fucked. There's no way you can answer their Leyline of the Void and then stop them from going off in the mean time. Even if you do catch them off guard with FoW, they'll probably be able to rebuild before you can. That said, I don't know any one who SBs Leyline of the Void in TES or Belcher other than me, so consider yourselves lucky that this is never going to happen to you any way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Berzerked
@BOTL, you may actually want to play with Force of Will against Storm combo before you claim it's worthless. It's the only card that will stop them from forcing you to scoop before you get to draw a card, and if they have to cast Xantid Swarm or Orim's Chant before they go off, it's either a virtual Time Walk or a Daze regardless of whether or not its in your hand, and if you do counter either card they can't necessarily risk the IGG chain. You can go for the ad hominem attack all you want, but I'm pretty sure people can see Force of Will for what it is and decide for themselves whether or not its worth it in a Storm combo meta (wherever that may be) or against Storm combo on the final tables. Even if you are playing with Chalice of the Void, if you lose the coin flip, you may have already lost the match. Of course Force of Will isn't as good as other answers against hate cards, but other answers aren't as good against combo or protect you from hate resolving in the first place. Scoff at it all you want, but Force of Will offers the deck a measure of protection that no other card can offer in its place, which makes it a card that people need to measure on its own merits.
My board's plan against both Crypt and TES has been CotV. You need it very quickly against Tormods C, but it will work often. It is also mostly free, as you rarely put it at anything other than 0 against TC, but against storm you can do whatever, probably something like 0-1, even though 1 takes out your therapies. Probably 0 still.Quote:
Originally Posted by thelemite
I'm pretty sure Bane's right on this one, and Force really has no place in the sideboard. It's already pretty tight.
Chalice comes in against both Storm combo and decks siding in Crypt when you're on the play (usually game 3, if anything). Pithing Needle handles Crypt better than Chalice when you're on the draw. Leyline comes in against most aggro and heavily graveyard-based decks. Chain of Vapor comes in if you suspect an enemy Leyline game 2 (decks running black), or in game 3 if you saw a Leyline game 2.
The rest of the slots (usually 1-2) I run Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation.
Something like:
4 Leyline
4 Chalice
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
Chalice-1 doesn't take out your Therapies for the purpose of making zombie tokens really quickly, however. Seriously, though? Who the hell is playing Chalice for 1 in this deck? In what situation would you possibly want to do this?Quote:
Originally Posted by T_B
Ray of Revelation keeps getting underrated, too. It hits Leyline from the hand, it can hit anything else from the yard, including Plague, Elephant Grass, Ghostly Prison, and even including Planar Void off one land and a discard effect or no land and a Diamond.
I have never played Ichorid in tournament. Could someone explain the side boarding strategy against the major decks? It seems very difficult to figure out what to cut.
edit: Although I can't really understand what Breathweapon is trying to say, he may be on to something with FOW out of the board. Its free, can answer atlealt one piece of hate, or stop combo from going off.
Against decks that arnt fast combo you SB out the Dread Returns, Flame-kin Zealot and Cephalid Sage, then usually some number of Golgari Thugs/Putrid Imps/Deep Analysis/Ichorid, depending on the matchup. Its usually just basically SB out the DR combo when you dont need to win super fast, and water down a little bit in other places.
Yeah, you cut the combo package against every deck that can't kill you before turn 4 (every Non-Combo.dec). Against black decks you have to side in the Chains and Rays, just because they may be siding in Leyline (which would totally fuck you otherwise). Against other decks you always side in the Chalice/Needles against Crypts.
I've been playtesting against Threshold, and I'm pretty satisfied with the MUs. I've learned how to fight through counters and even under pressure of Goyfs. You can go via Friggorid, dredging slowly, then, you therapy them to death, reanimate Teh Zealotz0rs if needed and go for the lethal blow. Yo can also reanimate a Big Bad Golgari Troll, but it wasn't necessary on the games I've played. Ichorids do the job very fine.
Since you rarely will combo them, you cut the combo part on the next games.
Anyway, I'm really really happy with this deck and how it can be extremly brutal.
The good Thresh matchup, and Landstill matchup as well, is one of the biggest reasons to play this deck. Against these decks you can pretty much go EOT discard mode and never have to resolve a spell, although flashing back Therapy is usually helpful. Goyf really isnt much of a threat unless you have no clock, because you just chump block it all day with zombies and it will never die removing your bridges.
Its worth noting that it is possible to drop Chalice for one so its still worth siding in against thresh over Pithing Needle game 2(on the draw). A single crypt wont kill you but multiples will and they have tons of draw.
Needle is bad in multiples and easier to counter. Chalice can be set at zero then one.
Oh and your matchup against Landstill isnt as good as you think if your not playing Chalice. Extirpate in multiples and along with Explosives/Engineered Plague/ ect can just tear you apart if you walk into the matchup unprepared.
You dont need FoW just because of TES. Thats retarded. Only Bryant wins with it anyways.
So this deck made it to the Decks to Beat forum. Did it suddenly lose its flair? Ive noticed a hell of a lot more graveyard hate recently which has put the deck in the back seat for me. Its easy enough to fight through usually but its just a pain in the ass when your seeing Leyline of the Voids maindecked in your local meta.
The deck needs a way to answer Gaddock Teeg because he can really ruin your gameplan if your not prepared. Hell Im wondering if the best way to work around him is by sideboarding out all your dread returns and DA's.
I don't think the deck has any "flair", so to speak. My guess is that there hasn't been a need to innovate with this deck all that much.
Still, it's not like this deck has really HAD to innovate or anything, but lots of Leylines will probably make any Ichorid player wonder.
Many decks that pack Teegs are usually slow to the point where this deck can wait to win and then just go on a one turn killing spree. Wouldn't Cabal Therapy, Chain of Vapor, and Gamble usually be enough - all you would have to do is make sure your Chain resolves and then let FKZ do the rest.
My thought (while it may not be right) is this: if you side out DRs, FKZ, and Sage against the Teeg-filled deck, then you have to win with 2/2s and 3/1s. Without Leylines, that's just a disaster (or a block) waiting to happen. Even with Leylines, you still have to win a race against a deck that probably has Tarmogoyf, graveyard removal, and/or Engineered Explosives.
For Teeg, wouldn't siding out the Deep Anals and like a Thug be better most times, or it this a deck that I'm missing?
I'm not an expert, but I'm just wondering if Crippling Fatigue can be a valid answer to Gaddock Teeg if necessary. We can just dredge all our deck and then sending him to the graveyard. Anyway gambling for chain of vapor can still be a valid plan.
Surprised to here something like that from you, the Ichorid-Man himself!:laugh: Since when does Gaddock Teeg ruins your gameplan?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
The opponent has to cast him BEFORE you are doing that LED-Breakthrough-DA thingy. And if he casts a 1st Turn Gaddock Teeg -> EOT-Discard.
Gaddock Teeg is also just a cards for aggrocontrol-decks. And you normally beat those decks. So in my opinion, Gaddock Teeg is a card you don't need to worry about. I also thing Meddling Mage on Cabal Therapy hurts much more than Gaddock Teeg.
Meddling Mage on Therapy can be bad but you still have Dread Return and Ichorid for zombie production. Mr T can ruin your late game dredging from Deep Analysis and shutting down your reanimation strategy, something often very powerfull against Thresh. When coupled with Counterbalance its just as bad as Mage also naming Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
On another note, I was a fool to play Geddon Stax over Ichorid at the mana leak.
Yeah I was reading a tourney report and someone said you playing some stax deck not Ichorid, bad times I'm sure. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
4c ThreshQuote:
Originally Posted by Bovinious
B Thresh
U/W Landstill
TES
Survival
Cephalid Breakfast
Those are the decks I played against. An amazing metagame for Ichy. The only match I wouldve had more trouble with than less wouldve been TES. I only saw one guy there playing Ichorid but he said he wasnt registered here. I have no ideawhat he played against but he didnt do that hot.
Hey, I just got back from our weekly legacy thursday here in Montreal. I rolled with Ichorid. Turnout was extreme at 32 but it's a shame there was no cut to top 3 let alone 8. It was just 4 rounds and whoever had best rank at the end won a few boosters. Playing was free.
Anyway, so I rolled with Ichorid, usual list with 2 Gambles. Sideboard contained Leylines, Chalices (should've been pithing needles), chain of vapors, ray of revelation.
1st round (some kind of slow T2 deck with Vorosh) not registered
Game one:Turn two in off LED+Breakthrough+Deep Analysis.
Game two: I mulligan into oblivion (when I should have kept my 7 card hand :( ) he beats with double strike 12/12 Vorosh.
Game three: Turn two or three win.
2nd Round (Goyf Rack) not registered
I win in 3 games. I can't remember many details, only he didn't have Leylines or Tormod's Crypt in the board so the games my draws didn't absolutely suck, I won. He extirpated Bridge from Below once or twice. Rack is a real beating against Ichorid. 3 Dmg a turn is sweet. I won last game at 1 life.
3rd round (UGr Thresh) not registered
His first time playing Thresh, his MD was tuned, but the sideboard was bad. I won in two without any trouble.
4th round (UGr Thresh) aTn
Very experienced in general but mostly Thresh player. I won the first match obv. Second match i side in Chalice as I'm expecting Tormod's Crypt. I keep my opener as I can work on a turn three win, but he has Crypt to slow me down. He eventually brakes it. I think ı'm ok, but he drops two more the next turn.
Game three, he also sides in Krosan Grips which I really wasn't expecting. He has a slow start and so do I by mulliganing to 5 (LED,LED, GGT, SI, GThug). I draw go for a while not wanting to burn for 3 of the LED. I draw a chalice and play it for 0. Next turn he top decks krosan grip, brainstorms into double chalice and I scoop.
I finished 4th out of 32 so not bad, but had I played the second game of the last round a little better perhaps I would've done better. This deck seems to have alot of trouble against Tormod's Crypt, more even than LotV.
Thoughts?
I think you just need more experience with the deck. Like you said you probably shouldve kept the seven card hand so you could hit your discard phase. More often than not thats simply enough to take care of thresh unless they get the stone cold nuts against you.Quote:
Originally Posted by k u j a
Dont bother to weaken your engine to sb Chalice of the Void if your not on the play. Its only usefull if you can play it before they play the first crypt. I usually dont even side against thresh unless its on the play Chalice.
Crypt is fine if you learn how to play around it. Learn how to dredge in moderation and look for the key Putrid Imps that can set up situations where your opponent will be pressured to blow their crypts early. Dedicating too many Ichorids and Bridges to the yard at once is how you get hit too hard by Crypts.
Ive seasoned myself enough against Tormods to foresake the Pithing Needles in the board. After all they cost mana...
Remember you can utilize Chain of Vapor as a means to cripple Tormods. If you bounce it they can either nuke what you have in the bin at that moment or risk losing to hastey zombies or losing the returned crypt to a Cabal Therapy.
Look a couple pages back to see my sideboarding strategy with the deck as it might help you shore up problems you have with doing so.
I def. went back to page 19 and didn't see a boarding list.
Anyway, I'm in the 'Cuse meta, which means Landstill and decks built to beat it. I've heard that Ichorid steamrolls control, so I'm totally psyched to play it. The only problem is that both of the builds of Landstill (UWb or UWbg) run extirpate in their board. Is there some magical solution to that shit? Or do I just have to play with no bridges, ichorids, or deep analysis's?
Alright guys so I've been reading and since lonelybaritone mentioned Extirpate, do you guys have a game against it? I think Groundseal could be a solution if you are running the 5 color manabase most are running and it cantrips into a dredgefest. This is kinda out of left field but it doesn't affect any of your own cards, I believe, and could help protect your graveyard from stuff. My 2 cents.
Extirpate isnt that bad, they really need to draw 2 of them in about 3-4 turns (one for Bridge, one for Ichorid) to beat you, and if you know its there you can therapy it away. If you run Chalice SB you could also possibly set it at 1, though I dont reccommend it.
It's easier to get the mana for Chalice-1 than Ground Seal (:2: vs :1::g:), and Chalice 1 handles this problem just as effectively, while simultaneously taking care of Tormod's Crypt and being good against Storm Combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rack
Plus, Ground Seal shuts off your own Dread Returns, although you'd likely be boarding this out.
In any case, Ground Seal's a no go. Chalice >> Ground Seal.
Well the hand I should've kept wasn't against thresh. The problem that I had against thresh was the triple tormod's crypt by turn 3... And you can't really set up plays with Putrid Imp when they have 4|4 Fire//Ice / Bolt.Quote:
I think you just need more experience with the deck. Like you said you probably shouldve kept the seven card hand so you could hit your discard phase. More often than not thats simply enough to take care of thresh unless they get the stone cold nuts against you.
I've read this thread a couple times but I can't remember if I have seen this addressed. Here is a hypothetical situation:
On the play game one you have an opening hand of Coliseum, LED, Breakthrough, GGT, Stinkweed Imp, and two random cards. Barring any disruption and your deck liking you, you can probably get a turn one or two win out of this. What is the correct play to make in this situation? Just go for it and hope they don't have active Force, or let them play a land next turn to give you better information but possibly duress you? Just something I was wondering after gold-fishing two opening hands like this on MWS this morning.
If on the draw you could just drop LED, Coliseum, activate LED, activate Coliseum, have UU floating for a hopeful DA. On the play if you have no clue what your playing against it really is a judgement call, but it seems safer to wait a turn and use the Coliseum than go all out with a Breakthrough. You just go Coliseum, LED, and if they FOW LED you still can Breakthrough for like 10 cards to yard. I figure more decks will have FoW than kill you on turn 1, so with no info I'd say drop Coliseum, then LED, then say go and combo via Coliseum and hopefully DA next turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataxrxes
I say drop first LED than Coliseum, because if you drop the land first your opponent knows what you are playing, but with LED it could also be TES...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bovinious
Its not that important but... ...i think its the better play!
Well I always drop land first so they cant Daze my LED, or at least so i"ll be able to pay 1, but if your on the play or they have any Islands/fetches out sure go LED first.
This is a kick ass tactic but you need to do it right. Dont take this route if your opponent has a fetchland or island up to avoid being hit by daze. Otherwise yes pretend to be TES. This has absolutely bluffed me resolved LED's. This also has the advantage of keeping one more card in your hand to reach your discard phase. That can be important if the LED was your only discard outlet.Quote:
Originally Posted by HdH_Cthulhu
Seeing Islands if often enough to convince me to go to eight cards as it is. Starting with the slow role and dredging into Ichorid/Therapy to clear the way for the comboing.
Is it better to play or draw then against
A) an unknown opponent game 1?
B) an opponent playing Thresh game 2?
Its always better to play first game one because if your playing against other combo you want a head start. Theres also less of a chance (4 less cards) of seeing a Force of Will from your opponent.
After you know your opponent has islands always put yourself on the draw you want to draw into that Chain of Vapor/Pithing Needle and you really want to hit your discard phase.
If you know your opponent has Tormods Crypts coming in and you have the chance to play you should choose to go first since you want a Chalice set to zero to stop them from playing them.
Confusing I know.
Which overrules the other? Like Islands + Crypts: what happens then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
It heavily depends on if one of the random cards is a land. But you never ever fear Force of Will in a hand where you can play two hand-emptiers in the same turn. That hand -will- beat Threshold game 1 on the play unless they're holding double Force.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataxrxes
On the play, I would lead with the Lion's Eye Diamond blindly and see if it gets Forced. If it doesn't, I go Coliseum, Breakthrough, Crack LED. Even if Breakthrough gets Forced you're now in good position to begin your dredging next turn, which will usually be enough to beat Threshold and sometimes Landstill game 1. If they don't show a Force, go crazy, and you might win right off if you roll into a Deep Analysis.
If LED -does- get Forced, here's what I do, case by case.
Case 1: Neither of the random cards in my hand is a land or anything else remotely useful. I play Breakthrough for 0 and go for the slow dredge kill, which should be good enough against Threshold and often Landstill.
Case 2: One or more of the random cards in my hand is a land. I pass the turn, play a land next turn, and Breakthrough for 0 (Not 1, or walking into Daze/Snare will set you back several turns and could lose you the game.) This will allow you to activate your Coliseum or flash Deep Analysis on turn 2 (Dredge the Troll first to find out if you have DA available), and go to town.
Crypts. Any time you get to game 3 after rolling your opponent game 1 and guessing wrong about their hate and losing to said hate game 2, which happens more often than not, it'll be your choice and you'll know what their hate is. At this point, you choose to play first if defending against their hate requires you go first via something like Chalice for 0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaynel
Your a professional. Im hoping someone will do well with this deck soon, it only had some minor hits. I had to put it down in my local meta to let some of the smoke (and leylines) settle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape