[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

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Originally Posted by AriLax

Kikoo, I was going to respond, but the fact you are citing getting too low on life to Ad Naus as a reason the card will stop this deck made me realize you have no clue how this works.

DD actually is worse off against the card. Their cantrips are so much more critical.

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Uhh, well then, feel free to enlighten me and explain why this isn't a moderately-powered kick in the balls to ANT (and other Storm combo) =). I don't think the card will single-handedly kill this deck, but it will things a lot more complicated. I'm aware that winning on low life vs blue is possible because of tutor/cantrip chaining, but that's something DDFT can also do (possibly even better since a blind Meditate often makes funky things happen, and if you have 2 SDTs, you can trade 1 mana for 1 storm count).


All I'm saying is: MM will delay the combo turn for ANT because the card acts as FoW 5-8 when they are holding an actual FoW -> you have to sit and take more damage from the creatures that they are completely free to tap out for (or you can go blindly all in) -> Ad Nauseam is sad. If the average combo turn against aggressive blue gets pushed to turn 4 (I can't tell if it will yet, it's just my suspicion), then you might as well play DD since AdN doesn't have much value left at that point.


MM also gives Merfolk 4 more outs to Xantid Swarm, which is very uncool

edit: added more propaganda

For what it's worth, nobody is going to be playing Doomsday since almost all of the Doomsday players moonlight as Tempo Thresh players and are getting all wide-eyed at the thought of just running out their t2 Confidants.

hi people!
what do you think about the card
http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...ah347xc_es.jpg
in ANT decks?

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Originally Posted by amonchakai

hi people!
what do you think about the card
http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...ah347xc_es.jpg
in ANT decks?

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What do we think about the card against ANT decks.

i say IN Ant decks stopping:
cursecatcher,spell pierce,spell snare,silence,stifle...

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Originally Posted by amonchakai

i say IN Ant decks stopping:
cursecatcher,spell pierce,spell snare,silence,stifle...

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And getting discarded by LEDs, yeah. We would be playing Spell Pierce all day long otherwise. Better test the deck before talking.

Kikoo pretty much sums up my thoughts on MM vs ANT. This card is a major pain in the butt, imho. My heart sank when it was spoiled. The deck just became much weaker against blue based decks, which is like 2/3rds of the format. In non blue, it doesn't really do anything that Duress/Seize can't timely handle but it's a whole different ballgame when it's backed up by FoW and Pierce. Xantid Swarm was such a beating against Merfolk and great vs Blue in general and the fact that MM hits it (and CoV), is absolutely t3h suck. Sad days for Combo :-(

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Originally Posted by kikoo

Uhh, well then, feel free to enlighten me and explain why this isn't a moderately-powered kick in the balls to ANT (and other Storm combo) =). I don't think the card will single-handedly kill this deck, but it will things a lot more complicated. I'm aware that winning on low life vs blue is possible because of tutor/cantrip chaining, but that's something DDFT can also do (possibly even better since a blind Meditate often makes funky things happen, and if you have 2 SDTs, you can trade 1 mana for 1 storm count).


All I'm saying is: MM will delay the combo turn for ANT because the card acts as FoW 5-8 when they are holding an actual FoW -> you have to sit and take more damage from the creatures that they are completely free to tap out for (or you can go blindly all in) -> Ad Nauseam is sad. If the average combo turn against aggressive blue gets pushed to turn 4 (I can't tell if it will yet, it's just my suspicion), then you might as well play DD since AdN doesn't have much value left at that point.


MM also gives Merfolk 4 more outs to Xantid Swarm, which is very uncool

edit: added more propaganda

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You assume DDFT is still killing on 4 against this card.

ANT can still kill straight through this card. DDFT has to be in a position to set up a pile without a 1 in it. Even the Meditate piles require you to recast Top. Please show me the DD pile you have to go through to kill them without playing a 1 on the turn you kill them. All I can think of are some odd pass the turn IGG piles. You could add some 2 mana draw spell, but even then your piles are still really awkward. Even with that, they might just attack your Tops or the start up cantrip and cold you.

The incentive that you actually get to cast all of your cantrips is also still there. Ad Naus also wasn't always the win con in those matchups anyways. Sometimes you got them in a scenario where it was good, but just as often you got to turn 4/5 and started Cabal Ritualling and Infernalling into Infernals.

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Originally Posted by emidln

For what it's worth, nobody is going to be playing Doomsday since almost all of the Doomsday players moonlight as Tempo Thresh players and are getting all wide-eyed at the thought of just running out their t2 Confidants.

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I lol'd. This explains my sudden inexplicable desire to play tempo threshold the other day.

Anyways, I have nothing constructive to add to this thread other than that there will probably be less Mental Missteps than people think, and it isn't the end of the world.

In DDFT you can just ignore MM as it was developed before to ignore Chalice of the Void set at 1. Just from the top of my hand:

Doomsday [Street Wraith, LED, LED, Burning Wish/IGG, Burning Wish/Tendrils], Ideas Unbound and win. As a protection vs Always4MMinHand you can use Abeyance.

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Originally Posted by AriLax

You assume DDFT is still killing on 4 against this card.

ANT can still kill straight through this card. DDFT has to be in a position to set up a pile without a 1 in it. Even the Meditate piles require you to recast Top. Please show me the DD pile you have to go through to kill them without playing a 1 on the turn you kill them. All I can think of are some odd pass the turn IGG piles. You could add some 2 mana draw spell, but even then your piles are still really awkward. Even with that, they might just attack your Tops or the start up cantrip and cold you.

The incentive that you actually get to cast all of your cantrips is also still there. Ad Naus also wasn't always the win con in those matchups anyways. Sometimes you got them in a scenario where it was good, but just as often you got to turn 4/5 and started Cabal Ritualling and Infernalling into Infernals.

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One way to pull this off was burning Wish (sac. LED) > infernal contract. The pile being something like LED, LED, Burning Wish/infernal tutor, 2 cards (extra mana/tendrils,...). This is however very mana and resource intensive.
It will always need more time/effort to win without casting a CC 1 spell on your combo turn, you can by no means just ignore it and win just as fast as you would with being able to play a CC1 spell.

EDIT: street wraight is a much easier way to do it but is not included in many doomsday lists.

i play an Ant deck and OBVIOUSLY don't test Mental because it`snt not publicated yet.
Hmm can you open your mind and be more polite please?

thanks

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

Anyways, I have nothing constructive to add to this thread other than that there will probably be less Mental Missteps than people think, and it isn't the end of the world.

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Of course it isn't the end of the world, but it's made life very, very difficult for combo. I see no reason why a blue based deck would not run this card, if not Main then in the Side. The damned thing stops so many things that would threaten Blue that it's not funny. Vial, Lackey, StP for their Goyf, Duress, Sieze, Top, Brainstorm, Pierce, Stifle, Snare, and the list goes on...

Really, I think that we are going to probably see this blasted thing everywhere. One of the worst things that decks like ANT and TES could have seen printed.

DDFT wins as often as ANT does without its namesake. That is, by chaining ITs and IGG, it puts together lethal storm and plays a Tendrils. DDFT will do this as often as ANT while ignoring 1s. Doomsday piles themselves are really list-specific. Lists with Burning Wish are probably going to be a lot stronger than non-Wish lists because they tend to abuse Ideas Unbound as well as have access to a black draw4 or Ideas Unbound out of the wishboard. They lets you setup situations where you can ignore or play through MM a lot easier such that it happens more naturally.

If anything, DDFT tends to rely on SDT for work more than ANT relies on Preordain, which would result in countered SDTs putting the DDFT player further behind than a countered Preordain. DD's goldfish speed is noticeably faster than ANT when DDFT plays a full acceleration suite and can go for DD, go piles that aim to IGG into Tendrils. That line of play is quite a bit riskier with MM, which probably takes away some of its advantages in the aggro matchup that the better DDFT players abused.

In any event, this seems like it's going to punish variance from mulligans. You're not going to lose to this card + a clock with any storm deck unless you're all in on something like Brainstorm (or another cantrip) because you took a trip to mulltown.

In a high-blue MM metagame you might be inclined to switch bounce spells to Echoing Truth, Rushing River, or play something like Slaughter Pact. The protection spells might mix up to include some number of Abeyances, Daze/FoW for DDFT, and possibly Pact of Negation in certain configurations (mostly DDFT wants to run this as a 1-of in Wish lists to protect replaying a SDT that slid in before a counter was drawn).

Why would this card have such a great impact on storm decks? I really don't get it.
So they counter one of our protection spells.. and then...? Since when is that bad? They still have to actually have the Force. Not to mention the twelve cantrips that you have left to find another protection spell.
So even if every blue deck runs this thing, who cares? You have enough ways to plow right through it, use them.

If people wait for your protection spells unilaterally, you're going to win more often than you'll lose. Blue players who understand what you're doing will counter your first Brainstorm/Ponder if they don't have a force (saving it if they do). People running aggro decks will counter your first 1cc spell.

The problem lies with aggro decks countering your first 1cc spell is that it will severely punish mulligans for you. Some games where you previously cantrip into the good stuff starting a cantrip chain to still kill them on 3 or 4 are delayed a few turns and you lose those games.

That is only a problem if aggro is going to MD them, which I don't think will happen. I also think that they have better stormhate than MM, but if they are going to disrupt me one or two turns, I will do the same after boarding. I think the greater problem in this matter is if they counter your Deathmark / Chain of Vapor on Teeg.

On blue, even if they do counter my first cantrip, I'd rather have that countered than eat a Spell Snare (I guess Spell Snare is, maybe with Daze, the first choice to cut for MM. If they cut anything else they will not have enough pressure, leaving you with more time to win) on Infernal.

So yeah, I didn't think about aggro packing them, but I also don't think that it will matter very much (one of the reasons being that we don't have to mulligan aggressivly). The blue matchup will in my opinion not change.

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Originally Posted by emidln

DDFT wins as often as ANT does without its namesake. That is, by chaining ITs and IGG, it puts together lethal storm and plays a Tendrils. DDFT will do this as often as ANT while ignoring 1s. Doomsday piles themselves are really list-specific. Lists with Burning Wish are probably going to be a lot stronger than non-Wish lists because they tend to abuse Ideas Unbound as well as have access to a black draw4 or Ideas Unbound out of the wishboard. They lets you setup situations where you can ignore or play through MM a lot easier such that it happens more naturally.

If anything, DDFT tends to rely on SDT for work more than ANT relies on Preordain, which would result in countered SDTs putting the DDFT player further behind than a countered Preordain. DD's goldfish speed is noticeably faster than ANT when DDFT plays a full acceleration suite and can go for DD, go piles that aim to IGG into Tendrils. That line of play is quite a bit riskier with MM, which probably takes away some of its advantages in the aggro matchup that the better DDFT players abused.

In any event, this seems like it's going to punish variance from mulligans. You're not going to lose to this card + a clock with any storm deck unless you're all in on something like Brainstorm (or another cantrip) because you took a trip to mulltown.

In a high-blue MM metagame you might be inclined to switch bounce spells to Echoing Truth, Rushing River, or play something like Slaughter Pact. The protection spells might mix up to include some number of Abeyances, Daze/FoW for DDFT, and possibly Pact of Negation in certain configurations (mostly DDFT wants to run this as a 1-of in Wish lists to protect replaying a SDT that slid in before a counter was drawn).

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The amount I agree with is about infinite. The only thing you missed is Defense Grid as a protection spell.

The only other concern I have is MM + Force for Merfolk is going to be obnoxious to deal with if they randomly have both. Other decks you might be able to run them out of blue cards.

Tested vs. Misstep Fish tonight. The card is not significantly better than Pierce at disrupting Storm. It is also difficult for them to assemble it + Force in any reliable way.

The match up is basically the same.

I suggest you to test your ANT storm build against this:

Mainboard 60

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Tombstalker

4x Brainstorm
4x Preordain
1x Ponder

4x Force of WIll
4x Daze
4x Mental Misstep
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle

3x Dsimember
2x Go for the Throat

4x Wasteland
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
3x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard 15

3x Extirpate
3x Pithing Needle
2x Krosan Grip
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Engineered Esplosives
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Darkblast

Guys MM is going to be annoying if played in the right deck, this is for sure. What I mean is taht is not going to make the whole enviroment change, as some say, is not even going to fit in all the decks, but adding it to some given decks will make that more competitors to Storm will appear (now we will not only to concern about CB-Top decks anymore).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-