Just took another first place with team.
Hymn was critical, I would not trade it for seize ever.
Beating show and tell, Rug delver, and affinity.
Printable View
Just took another first place with team.
Hymn was critical, I would not trade it for seize ever.
Beating show and tell, Rug delver, and affinity.
And above all, more lands. But yeah, I agree with you in principle, I just thought that the comparison with Canadian Threshold was fallacious, that's all :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
I think what catmint is saying is a valid concern...
I have also had problems with Hymn to Tourach and Tombtalker, simply put there were just not active early enough. I have been very pleased with playing Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant. The caveat is that I don't have to worry about Jund in my meta.
By talking cards that can not be played until turn 2 and 4 (at the earliest) and replacing them with cards that can be played turn 1 and 2 significantly increased the "velocity" of the deck.
Thoughtseize has been paramount in ensuring the survivability of our fragile creatures. Again it is not an issue of mana base but rather an issue of mana curve... and I think Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant substantially increase the tempo of the deck.
Do you mind posting your decklist with the inclusion of confidants/without hymns? Or do you still play the hymns?Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorwynd
Creatures (15)
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells (25)
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
Sideboard (15)
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dismember
1 Life From the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Plague
Sideboard is certainly a work in progress but is pretty balanced for a field where I can be certain to play against Junk, RUG, U/W Miracles, TES, Sneak and Show, and TinFins. Note—Jund is non-existent.
Your list is interesting. It seems like a lot of lifeloss between Bob+Force, Thoughtseize, and 10 fetches. Typically other decks have played Top or Jitte when they have lots of effects like that: 2-3 Jittes in The Gate, Top in Bob junk builds. Has that been a problem against Thresh at all? Looks like the other decks in your meta wouldn't punish that aspect much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorwynd
I love value, but Tombstalker has just been so amazing against so many decks. It's super hard to deal with - usually a 2-3 for 1 - if it doesn't just win the game in 2 swings. It's at its worst against W decks, but it's still a fine beater.
RUG is certainly the toughest matchup of those that I expect to encounter. Fortunately, Force and Thoughtseize make easy cards to remove for more relevant sideboard options.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
I will certainly agree that, against Jund and RUG, Tombstalker is a house. Furthermore, Hymn to Tourach is probably better than Thoughtseize in those match ups as well. At that point, I think you are probably better off playing a less tempo version of BUG version. The greatest appeal for my present list is how strong my main board configuration is against Combo and U/W miracles, where early disruption and pressure from Dark Confidant and Thoughtseize is greatly appreciated.
Not having Tombstalker versus RUG and Jund would hurt a lot, so in a confidant build I would include Tombstalker in the sideboard and bring it in for confidant against RUG/Jund. Same could be done the other way round... :tongue: Tombstalker costing BB is also muuuch less of an issue than hymn.
I am currently testing with both versions from time to time, but I don't get to a significant result. In order to do that you would probably have to play a lot pre/poast board with both versions against RUG, Jund and Esper against a COMPETENT opponent to gain enough data on what is better....but who has the time... The pro- and contra arguments for thoughtseize/hymn confidant/stalker are outlined and clear to everyone I think.
Against my esper build which has a superstable manabase (23 lands, 5 basics and only 1 utility land) + 3 rest in peace in the board the regular
Are they? I don't think I've seen anything for the discard outside of the very obvious. I would appreciate if you'd go over it from your point of view with respect to the decks we're playing against the most. I'd like to do the same, but I'll wait to see what others have to say on it so maybe I can learn from it first.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Here's the breakdown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus
Thoughtseize is better versus combo where you just want to take a specific card. It's not as powerful vs other archetypes, though.
Hymn is best for midrange/control, where you can generate virtual tempo through missed land drops etc. It's also a powerhouse versus burn decks or combo decks relying on multiple cards to chain. It's bad vs Dredge and it's mana cost is more intense, consuming an early turn usually. However it's potential to steal a game so quickly is why I play it.
Tombstalker is best vs lightning bolt decks since he forces two-for-ones or just kills them. His ability to close out games rapidly is what makes him valuable to our tempo strategy; that's why I play it.
Bob is better vs STP decks, as his card advantage will bury their slower strategy. Given that DRS or Delver will eat removal first, Bob also has a good chance at survival for at least a few turns. He's also less demanding to cast and doesn't care about RiP.
Placed 2nd in a small local tourney going 4-1 today. I played vs ANT (2-1), BG rock (1-2), Burn (2-1), Elfs (2-0) and Reanimator (2-1). I played version with Dark Confidants, and it has been amazing (luckily no Jund in my meta today). The deck is such a powerhouse, and I'll be playing it in GP next weekend. List:
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Confidant
4 Goyf
4 Decay
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Hymn
3 Inquisition
20 lands (classical)
---
4 Sinkhole
2 Disfigure
2 Clique
2 Mind Harness
2 Plague
3 Surgical
After tournament, I played 4 games vs Miracles and crushed it 3-1 (lost one due to my overextention and his 3rd Terminus). The deck is really a beast. I'm very comfortable with mainboard, but looking for some sideboard suggestions for the Grand Prix.
How do you guys feel about having 3 stifles in the maindeck? with the sinkhole package from the side?
I want to run it desperately; it would require shifting hymns to thoughtseize, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Do you have a list with them?
20 landsQuote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
creatures 14
4 drs
4 goyf
4 delver
2 tombstalker
spells 26
4 fow
4 daze
3 hymn
3 stifle
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 abupt decay
or 3 ponders 4 hymns
sinkies in the side.
To me 4 Submerge are usually an auto-include to help against RUG and mirror, but I guess confidant might change the power of this spell as well. 2 Mind harness and 2 Disfigure look like reasonable alternatives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastikor
As I wrote I would play 2-3 "hard to remove creatures" in the SB like Tombstalker or maybe even 1-2 Thrun (Against Esper and Jund the 4 mana are much less of an issue than vulnerable threats). Since the idea behind sinkhole was to improve the esper matchup they could be cut since the matchup is improved significantly with confidant. Against miracles and jund the sinkholes would miss a bit but they are not that good anyway. Also against other Tempo/Aggro/burn decks you need alternative creatures to bring in for bob. Preferably with a big body. The 3rd extraction is also a flex-spot obviously.
Big fan of 2 Plagues and 2 Vendilion Cliques. Both very versatile and high impact spells.
I know you did not ask for maindeck advice, but not playing 4 ponder cannot be right imo. Mana and card selection are critical and in t1-3 Ponder is way better than brainstom in case you dont have a shuffle effect. Especially if you need manafixing brainstorm might just loose you the game whereas ponder is the best manafixer in the format. Discard is flex in your list, but I would even cut a creature or a counter before cutting a Ponder.
Why are people playing plague?Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Goblins, merfolk, and even maverick (humans), are not that prevalent in the meta right now
@ catmint: In a Bob-less list I'd definitly run 4 Ponders, however in this list it was perfectly enough. Both discard spells were absolutely huge. If you need to play Ponder turn 1-2 (searching for lands or whatever), you probably should have mull'ed anyway. Later, Bobs do the business just well... Thing is, you really want to be super efficient in turn 1 and 2 (and this deck is really designed for this), pushing the game with discard and threats.
Never had a chance to cast Harness, but it was meant for RUG. Yup, Submerges and Confidants are not the best friends...
@ Kobe: Elves, Goblins, Spirits, Humans. I even named Faerie today due to Bitterblossom. These decks are not super popular, but seem to appear randomly. I like to be prepared for these sitiations on a big scale event like GP.
Was playtesting with stifles.
The deck has problems against decks with board presence. midrange seems to be the main problem.If the opponent plays around daze, it becomes hard to win with this deck. I'm sure u guys know this already.
Plague: People will bring their Belcher, TES, elves, goblins and enchantress to a GP, but yes that alone would not justify it. Spirit vs. esper is big though. Naming humans vs. maverick is less sexy when running confidant. Confdant will be good versus maverick, but sure the midrange matchups can only be won by getting significantly ahead early.
Just to keep bouncing ideas around, I'm currently playing this:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Engineered Plague
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast
Having nebulous cards that can transform to fill different roles has been immensely useful, particularly cards like Clique, Thoughtseize, and Stifle. That's part of the reason I wanted to discuss the discard.