[Deck] Dredge

The thing is that as soon as any graveyard strategy becomes more popular, people pack more graveyard hate and Dredge suffers because of that. Grafdigger's Cage is a very good card against Dredge.

But will people pack it into their sideboard? If graveyard based deck will become so dominant that people want 7-8 slots in the sideboard to hate on graveyards, chances are they will pick up a set of Surgical Extractions and Grafdigger's Cage. Snapcaster Mage may be a reason why people would do this.

If people only want to spend 4 slots on graveyard hate, they'll probably stick with Surgical Extraction since that's a more versatile graveyard hate card, as it's also very good against Punishing Fire, where Grafdigger's Cage doesn't do a thing.

So basically, if Grafdigger's Cage will find its way into sideboards, Dredge will have a problem I think, since I think it will be run next to a full set of Surgical Extractions.

Snapcaster has no sinergy with cage ... so, if you want to run 7-8 Cage + SE .... good luck massing up your deck ...

I still think I can be faster !!! \o/

Some blue decks could use this in the main. Our hope should be they use crap like Trinket Mage to find it.

Well, fuck.

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Originally Posted by Dravus Mallinard

We also got a powerfull weapon to adapt Dredge: Faithless Looting !!!

It means we have 8x Careful Study + 4x Breakthrouth working as a tutor to find our solution: Nature`s Claim.

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GL with your manabase

Ugh, people just pointed out to me that Cage also hits Green Sun's Zenith and Natural order. So Cage is a good sideboardcard against the following: Reanimator, Maverick, Bant Aggro, Snapcaster Mage, Dredge. I'm sure I missed something. But basically the card is alot less narrow (more wide?) than I initially thought. It's basically hate for half of the current Legacy meta, it will find sideboards.

I'm not sure it will be as bad as everyone is making it out to be.

We've been dealing with artifact based hate since this deck was born, and this particular version doesn't even remove the cards from your yard. It's no worse than trying to win through a Leyline or Jailer...it's just going to be much more common.

It seems the most likely effect is a shift in our sideboards from Ancient Grudge + Nature's Claim to Chain of Vapor + Nature's Claim.

The best case scenario here is that it takes a lot of guesswork out of sideboarding for game 2.

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Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow

How is this card any better than leyline of the void, a card you can actually handle?

How is it any better than tormod's crypt since removing this card still leaves your graveyard intact.

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Let me try and enumerate the reasons:

• The Cage does not require you to draw into it in your opening hand to be cost-efficient, thus, relieving you of the need to mulligan aggressively even in cases where an aggressive mulligan "might" be necessary.
• It is more easily tutored because of its affordable casting cost.
• It's colorless, which essentially allows any deck to use it. In comparisson, Leyline of the Void almost certainly requires non-black decks to mulligan aggressively for it to be able to put it into play.
• Again, because of its low casting cost, it's less vulnerable to "bounce" spells when compared to Leyline of the Void.
• Because drawing into Leyline of the Void in your opening hand plays with "probabilities" rather than certainty, the effectiveness of running the card is directly proportional to the number of copies that you're running. In comparison, players can opt to run less than 4 copies of the Cage without drastically affecting their chances of getting it into play if their deck is configured to have efficient tutors (e.g. Scavenging Ooze + GSZ).
• Because the Cage is colorless, a minor advantage is that all five colors are accessible in trying to protect it (if necessary). In comparison, Leyline of the Void isn't as natural a fit in non-black decks as compared to black decks (as previously stated).
• Because it is more cost-friendly, drawing into a Cage during the game is much more "manageable" (and can immediately be relevant) when compared to drawing a Leyline of the Void during the game.
• As a corner case, it is much easier to manipulate the Cage when compared to Leyline of the Void because Artifact manipulation is much more common than Enchantment manipulation (I might be wrong here, probably depending on the metagame).
• Tormod's Crypt is designed to be a one-shot solution for the contents of the graveyard, while the Cage is a permanent solution while it is in play.
• The Cage is invulnerable to spells that can be cast from the graveyard, specifically, Ancient Grudge.
• The Cage is less thought-intensive because its controller simply has to wait for it to be addressed, or otherwise, affect the game drastically. In comparison, both Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus require its controller to asses the game state correctly, leaving room for ill-timed activations of the abilities of these cards.
• The Cage PREVENTS players from playing through their graveyard. In comparison, both Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus still allow opposing players to play through the GY, allowing the possibility of "managing" the situation to a point where recovery (and possibly victory) can still be achieved.
• As a corner case (at least for Dredge), the abilities of Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus can both be responded to (e.g. Stifle).
• As another corner case, Tormod's Crypt has a drawback in that it requires a player to be targeted for activation, while the Cage does not.
• In yet another corner case, Relic of Progenitus requires one colorless mana for activation, which causes the controller to keep at least one mana open to be able to safely activate the card's ability at the right time; the Cage requires no such activation.
• Again, because Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus require an activation cost, both are vulnerable to "disablers" such as Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker.

Anything else that I might have missed? :tongue:

I'm not planning on shelving the deck, though, because I believe that the Cage just makes it more fun for us to figure things out :wink:

I'm excited to see how the rest of the new set turns out. Faithless Looting and Grafdigger's Cage have been very interesting, and we still have a more than a hundred more cards to be revealed in a set that's been designed to be graveyard-centric, which naturally also required some sense of balance (thus, the Cage).

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by jares

Let me try and enumerate the reasons:

• The Cage does not require you to draw into it in your opening hand to be cost-efficient, thus, relieving you of the need to mulligan aggressively even in cases where an aggressive mulligan "might" be necessary.
• It is more easily tutored because of its affordable casting cost.
• It's colorless, which essentially allows any deck to use it. In comparisson, Leyline of the Void almost certainly requires non-black decks to mulligan aggressively for it to be able to put it into play.
• Again, because of its low casting cost, it's less vulnerable to "bounce" spells when compared to Leyline of the Void.
• Because drawing into Leyline of the Void in your opening hand plays with "probabilities" rather than certainty, the effectiveness of running the card is directly proportional to the number of copies that you're running. In comparison, players can opt to run less than 4 copies of the Cage without drastically affecting their chances of getting it into play if their deck is configured to have efficient tutors (e.g. Scavenging Ooze + GSZ).
• Because the Cage is colorless, a minor advantage is that all five colors are accessible in trying to protect it (if necessary). In comparison, Leyline of the Void isn't as natural a fit in non-black decks as compared to black decks (as previously stated).
• Because it is more cost-friendly, drawing into a Cage during the game is much more "manageable" (and can immediately be relevant) when compared to drawing a Leyline of the Void during the game.
• As a corner case, it is much easier to manipulate the Cage when compared to Leyline of the Void because Artifact manipulation is much more common than Enchantment manipulation (I might be wrong here, probably depending on the metagame).
• Tormod's Crypt is designed to be a one-shot solution for the contents of the graveyard, while the Cage is a permanent solution while it is in play.
• The Cage is invulnerable to spells that can be cast from the graveyard, specifically, Ancient Grudge.
• The Cage is less thought-intensive because its controller simply has to wait for it to be addressed, or otherwise, affect the game drastically. In comparison, both Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus require its controller to asses the game state correctly, leaving room for ill-timed activations of the abilities of these cards.
• The Cage PREVENTS players from playing through their graveyard. In comparison, both Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus still allow opposing players to play through the GY, allowing the possibility of "managing" the situation to a point where recovery (and possibly victory) can still be achieved.
• As a corner case (at least for Dredge), the abilities of Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus can both be responded to (e.g. Stifle).
• As another corner case, Tormod's Crypt has a drawback in that it requires a player to be targeted for activation, while the Cage does not.
• In yet another corner case, Relic of Progenitus requires one colorless mana for activation, which causes the controller to keep at least one mana open to be able to safely activate the card's ability at the right time; the Cage requires no such activation.
• Again, because Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus require an activation cost, both are vulnerable to "disablers" such as Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker.

Anything else that I might have missed? :tongue:

I'm not planning on shelving the deck, though, because I believe that the Cage just makes it more fun for us to figure things out :wink:

I'm excited to see how the rest of the new set turns out. Faithless Looting and Grafdigger's Cage have been very interesting, and we still have a more than a hundred more cards to be revealed in a set that's been designed to be graveyard-centric, which naturally also required some sense of balance (thus, the Cage).

Kind Regards,
jares

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The thing is, with everything that I already listed down, I totally missed out on the Cage's interaction with the Library (as stated in the comments above)! This is going to be fun :laugh:

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by Davran

I'm not sure it will be as bad as everyone is making it out to be.

We've been dealing with artifact based hate since this deck was born, and this particular version doesn't even remove the cards from your yard. It's no worse than trying to win through a Leyline or Jailer...it's just going to be much more common.

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This sounds to me like a fair assessment of what could happen, and we'll essentially address the Cage similar to how we addressed all the other GY hate that we've encountered.

Let's just hope that nothing worse comes out of the new set... :eek:

Kind Regards,
jares

To tell the truth, I am not that afraid of this card in the sideboards.
Look, if this card is that better than the other grave-hates (and it actually is), then we have to be prepared to face a single card, doesn't make sense diversifying the hate, if you have to play worse cards in the process.
I think it's easier to fight a single artifact, than fighting double Extraction, for example.

On the other hand, if people start to pack this card as a main deck hate, we will get in trouble. Either way, it will take some time for the Meta to adapt, we will see.

"In nature nothing is created, nothing is lost, everything is transformed." - Lavoisier, Antoine Laurent (1743-1794)

Keeping dredging...

Yay! WotC is really trying to mess decks that doesn't play lands and spells.

Manaless Dredge is dead, if that cards seems some play. And that leave open two possibilities: LED Dredge with Faithless Looting, and LEDless Dredge with a lot of artifact-destruction sideboard.

I guess that card will mess the entire format, and will be a good candidate for a Ban Hammer, because it hits every deck in the format: Dredge, Reanimator, GSZ.dec (GW/x Maverick, Nic Fit, Bant Aggro), Natural Order.dec (Bant, RUG and Elves), ANT/TES (shutting off Past in Flames), Snapcaster.dec, Lands.dec.

This will be a tough one, and might bring Tribal and perhaps CounterTop to Tier 1 again, along with Canadian Thresh and U/R Delver (which won't suffer a thing).

But after playing a lot of Pauper (only commons format) and Belcher. I've got to say that we have a good candidate of being our best anti-hate: Ingot Chewer

1) It's Evoked for R. It'll hit the battlefield and trigger, destroying the goddamned Cage.
2) It's sacrificed right way, allowing to trigger Bridge from Below for tokens. And now leaving our Graveyard open to blast.

Aside from losing the change of using Ancient Grudge as the main Artifact Hate, Crafdigger's Cage doesn't remove your graveyard, unlike Tormod's Crypt, which is always pop'd in response.

This are tough times my friends, and now we'll have to wait for the format to adapt to this new card, or think outside the box to find a solution.

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I guess that card will mess the entire format, and will be a good candidate for a Ban Hammer, because it hits every deck in the format: Dredge, Reanimator, GSZ.dec (GW/x Maverick, Nic Fit, Bant Aggro), Natural Order.dec (Bant, RUG and Elves), ANT/TES (shutting off Past in Flames), Snapcaster.dec, Lands.dec.

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Great, I hate 90% of those decks, no offense (not all of them). I hope they get buried under the sea.. with Atlantis ^^ I can't wait to go to a tourney and play real games, attacking, assigning double blocks, etc. and not have to board in 8 cards to deal with this crap :laugh: I'll be so happy.

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Originally Posted by Mystical_Jackass

Great, I hate 90% of those decks, no offense (not all of them). I hope they get buried under the sea.. with Atlantis ^^ I can't wait to go to a tourney and play real games, attacking, assigning double blocks, etc. and not have to board in 8 cards to deal with this crap :laugh: I'll be so happy.

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So why don't you go play Modern or Draft? In those shitty formats you can play "real games".

Legacy is fun because people could think outside of the main strategy and build decks and make them optimal. Not just packing a few Tarmogoyfs and win.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

But after playing a lot of Pauper (only commons format) and Belcher. I've got to say that we have a good candidate of being our best anti-hate: Ingot Chewer

1) It's Evoked for R. It'll hit the battlefield and trigger, destroying the goddamned Cage.
2) It's sacrificed right way, allowing to trigger Bridge from Below for tokens. And now leaving our Graveyard open to blast.

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I was personally choosing between Ingot Chewer and Shattering Spree. I guess both have their benefits, depending on what you're trying to achieve.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

I guess that card will mess the entire format, and will be a good candidate for a Ban Hammer, because it hits every deck in the format: Dredge, Reanimator, GSZ.dec (GW/x Maverick, Nic Fit, Bant Aggro), Natural Order.dec (Bant, RUG and Elves), ANT/TES (shutting off Past in Flames), Snapcaster.dec, Lands.dec

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In a sense, us Dredge players have an advantage because we're pretty used to getting this kind of hate thrown our way. I personally would need to revise very little in my list in response to Grafdigger's Cage because my sideboard does not use Ancient Grudge, and does feature 4x Nature's Claim; maybe an Ingot Chewer or two would be sufficient in addressing these changes.

After everything normalizes, it's possible that we would eventually be gaining more from Grafdigger's Cage by allowing the meta to affect us, along with everyone else (think Pox :laugh:)! That may well be the best case scenario...

Kind Regards,
jares

Maybe I'm missing something because I'm new to Dredge, but why not just draw normally and then discard when over 7 until you land a card that eliminates the Cage? Yes, the card is a PITA, but I just don't see it being that major if played around correctly.

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Originally Posted by SolPlyr

Maybe I'm missing something because I'm new to Dredge, but why not just draw normally and then discard when over 7 until you land a card that eliminates the Cage? Yes, the card is a PITA, but I just don't see it being that major if played around correctly.

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This might be slow as hell, but it works. DDD and build your graveyard until you draw the answer to Cage, and win.

The main problem is that the opposite deck will have time to setup, and if they split the hate just a little bit, we're doom'd.

Perhaps, the best way is to play efficient artifact kill and mulligan aggressively.

So back to the drawing board. New sideboard will invole some numbers of shattering sprees and ingot chewers.

Edit: in the german forums, this was posted recently:


3 Citadel
2 Grudge
2 Shattering Spree
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Ray
3 Leylines
1 Coffin Purge
1 Purify the Grave

The Idea is that nobody is gonna play Leylines anymore, so we might as well ignore it. Don't know what to think of it yet, could be right tho.

Edit: Leylines are the flex slots.