Let's say your opponent goes T1 Liliana, how do you guys beat the PW? If they land one soon enough, I usually scoop.
Printable View
Let's say your opponent goes T1 Liliana, how do you guys beat the PW? If they land one soon enough, I usually scoop.
I have never in my life seen a turn 1 liliana. However, turn 2, I kill her with abrupt decay or name her with cabal therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
In my mini-report I mentioned that I beat 2 BUG Control decks: liliana was a hurdle in both matches. However, piling on pressure makes their game a lot harder. Opt to just blow her up or therapy her on turn 1.
Kich- For the miracle matchup do you find that you have a better game where you play around the sweepers or if you run headlong into the sweepers and hope he doesn't have them? I could see pithing needle on top and just try to combo before they can get a terminus off being a viable play.
I am not totally sure, im trying to set up a long playtest session with the best UW player I know, so ill have a better idea later. I would say it probably depends; if they don't have it then holding back gives them time to find it, if they do have it they can blow you out. Cabal therapy is good here just to scout the hand before going deep. If they're sandbagging it you're kinda screwed anyway. Other than that, apply as much pressure as you can without overcommitting. I would look to peel removal and non force counterspells with therapies unless you're looking to go off.
I usually discard Vengevine and follow that up with casting two elf dorks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
This causes my opponent to scoop.
So I should play some Vengevines?
HoneyT said he was having some success[against Miracles] with an intuition+Vengevine deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
For this reason alone, I believe this is the direction elves should be taking in the current meta.
Think this will be most viable aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Somebody explain how 4/3 haste guys that get hosed by both Terminus and Swords (worse than a swarm of Elves) is improving our UW match up?
Because it is doable turn 2, active on turn 3 threatening a 2 turn clock starting turn 3. If buried alive resolves they're pretty dead unless they rip terminus. Also terminus doesn't make multiple buried alives dead, as they will refund the vines and keep them coming. Their only out is to sword them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
I haven't tested Intuition against Miracles yet, so here is my best guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Intuition and Vengevine are both tough cards to counter via Counterbalance(opposed to the rest of our deck).
Also, if you get three Vengevines in play with Intuition then the Miracle player must have a Terminus on top of their library in order to survive.
A Swords to Plowshares or two won't stop three Vengevines. The key card here is Intuition not Vengevines. Bait out the Force of Will with a Glimpse of Nature and then follow up with Intuition for the win.
Like I said I haven't actually tested it. I have no idea how to win game two and three when Cage, RiP, and/or Surgical Extraction come in, but it seems like a better plan than praying your opponent will mull to three against us.
That's the whole point! They will have the Terminus! Have you guys not been listening to the problem? If your plan with Vengevine is that they won't have Terminus, then Elves are fine as is.
Counterbalance+Terminus is the real problem. It puts elves between a rock and a hard place. Intuition into Vengevines circumnatigates one of those two problematic cards. It is by no means an auto win against Miracles, but it is a better plan than what elves currently has against that deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
Counterbalance isn't that scary anymore with 2 Cavern of Souls main, an a couple of Abrupt Decay side honestly.Quote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
Terminus is still the numero uno problemo in my opinion.
Yes multiple Caverns but if you are trying to combo out you can only tap that cavern once and then your essentially back to where you started (staring at the counterbalance and remember your Glimpses are always going to be countered). Anyhow Terminus is the "numero uno problemo" and in my testing (playing miracles) I can virtually always resolve a devastating terminus. Vengevine is a good card, but dont forget about the Surgical and Cages which are absolutely crazy good against it.
Maybe we need to revisit the old Sylvan Safekeeper+Gaddock Teeg tech to combat Terminus.
I definitely agree that Teeg is the best answer to Terminus. I think I mentioned it a couple pages ago, but everybody thought blue was right. Anyways, you have to use at least two of him main and I am hoping there is time to search up Safekeeper. Remember, Teeg shuts off your GSZs and Chords. The major dilemma is that if you get Teeg first, then Swords is live. If you get Safekeeper first, then Terminus is live. One way to settle it is simply by the numbers. They use one more Swords than Termius in game one (typically), and they have Snapcaster (typically), so the odds are higher that they'll follow up with StP. Then to keep GSZ and Chord live, and the due to the odds, I guess you get Safekeeper first ?
I'm gonna start with this list.
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Bayou
2 [UNH] Forest
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
// Creatures
2 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
2 [B] Llanowar Elves
2 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
2 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
4 [ALA] Elvish Visionary
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
3 [ON] Birchlore Rangers
2 [LRW] Mirror Entity
2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [JU] Sylvan Safekeeper
// Spells
4 [CHK] Glimpse of Nature
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [RAV] Chord of Calling
1 [UL] Crop Rotation
The black is also for Therapy and Decay in the board. I'll give this a try and ask one of the Miracle players for some games.
If you're tutoring two creatures you might as well go for Visionary/Wirewood and force them to blow their sweepers prematurely without diluting the MD. In my experience sweeper heavy decks are best met by forfeiting the OHKO plan and instead rely on Crossroads and having access to superior card advantage engines in order to force those last points of damage through. Kinda like Goblins does it, and Goblins is apparently very favored vs UWx.
That's because Goblins plays creatures in-tribe that grant haste. They all play at least four, some more. They also get Demonic Tutor on a Goblin to find these. If we had Elves that did both of those, I'd be all over your plan. We don't, and Crossroads is a card-sink instead. In other words, it's not a creature. The alpha strike is only possible because of haste with feet. That is what is important for them to come back from Terminus. That, and the fact they play four Ringleader, which is much better than Messenger (which still could help) because of the haste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Infinitium
Say UW plays Terminus, and follows it up with Entreat in the next turn or two. Goblins can rebuild a lethal attack in that time. We would have a much, much harder time doing so. Part of that is also because they play 22+ lands and Vial, where we use 17 lands, three of which get hit or neutered by Terminus, and mana Elves.
If the answer were already in the deck, this match up wouldn't be terrible. It's going to take some thinking outside of what you guys have already heard other people say.
Best to my knowledge I've been the only one pushing crossroads ever. If you're not going to test you'll have to take my word for it being good versus control though - 1cc and being inherently difficult to remove makes for something few control decks not running Deed or multiple EE's want to find in front of them. You're right in that making land drops is vital for the matchup though, which is another reason I'm sceptic towards Safekeeper. I used to run Sylvan Ranger as Visionary#5 for a while solely to make land drops, but eventually found it too slow and cut it to make room for Ooze. Could be worth trying out if you want to improve that particular MU though since its by no means bad on its own (might not work with your manabase though).