Miracle Control

Wow, just wow, I'm on life tilt after this evening. How on earth do you beat Shardless BUG with UWr miracles? I lost 0-6 to a friend of mine and 2 of those were with sideboard.

Even with a resolved Counterbalance that does not get removed with decay I still loose to the deck, incredible. Do you have any suggestions on lines of play, sideboarding here? I run a 3 swords, 3 terminus, 2 ponder main and after board I have 2 pyroclasm, 2 supreme verdict, 2 RiP and 3 reb's on top of that. I board out FoW, Counterspell and 1 clique and 1 venser and what else should I take out? (have two of each main) Is this the wrong way to go?

I know this is probably the wrong forum to ask this since we are all amateurs at some point, but I would appreciate a pep talk since I am to play this deck in 4 days time in a huge tournament and feel crushed right now. Even to the point where I feel maybe Patriot is the deck I should play instead... zzz.. hate tempodecks but still.

I can say with some confidence that you do not want to be taking out Clique and Venser. Clique is good at attacking planeswalkers and clearing up your hand of uncastable Miracles. Venser is just about the best card possible against Liliana. If your opponent is playing those then you must leave it in. Bringing in Pyroclasm and Supreme Verdict might be too much removal.

Shardless BUG isn't easy; the matchup favors them. But not by a lot. You should be able to take a reasonable number of matches off them.

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Originally Posted by useL

Wow, just wow, I'm on life tilt after this evening. How on earth do you beat Shardless BUG with UWr miracles? I lost 0-6 to a friend of mine and 2 of those were with sideboard.

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I'm not the most experienced BUG Agent player, but I'm something like 75% against alphastryk when we've tested the matchup. The best two ways to win are Blood Moon if I tap out or an Entreat for 3+. Sometimes Jace gets there. Rest in Peace usually buys a few turns.

Seems like the only real plan is all Blood Moon, all the time

You also might want to consider playing Misdirection somewhere in your 75. They're great against Shardless BUG (Just think about all of those targets you can Misdirection, including Ancestral Recall, Hymn, Maelstrom Pulse, Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize in a pinch) and do pretty well against any Abrupt Decay deck and any decks where you will expect a large counter war.

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

...all Blood Moon, all the time

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That's the best plan...

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Originally Posted by useL

Even with a resolved Counterbalance that does not get removed with decay I still loose to the deck, incredible. Do you have any suggestions on lines of play, sideboarding here? I run a 3 swords, 3 terminus, 2 ponder main and after board I have 2 pyroclasm, 2 supreme verdict, 2 RiP and 3 reb's on top of that. I board out FoW, Counterspell and 1 clique and 1 venser and what else should I take out? (have two of each main) Is this the wrong way to go?

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Joe's right, do Not board out Clique and Venser.

1. Misdirection/Divert is required. Ancestral Vision/Abrupt Decay/Hymn are all good targets.

2. Have at least 7 creature removals, in any combination of StP, Terminus, and Supreme Verdict. Try to conserve StP on Tarpit, cause it's not easy to trap BUG's Tarpit via Terminus.

3. If you really want to improve this match-up, consider Notion Thief.

Why not trying to be the aggressor instead of trying to handle the field with Terminus, Supreme Verdict and other reactive cards? What about increasing the count of Cliques, Venser and ... most important ... Entreat the Angels to force your opponent into a upside-down-position?

I remember that Carsten once promoted a Miracles-Build without all the boardwipe but more Entreat to solve Delver and Co. with 4/4 Angels rather than throwing 4cc solutions like Supreme Verdict at 1cc-3cc threats.

Did anyone test the idea?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Why not trying to be the aggressor instead of trying to handle the field with Terminus, Supreme Verdict and other reactive cards? What about increasing the count of Cliques, Venser and ... most important ... Entreat the Angels to force your opponent into a upside-down-position?

I remember that Carsten once promoted a Miracles-Build without all the boardwipe but more Entreat to solve Delver and Co. with 4/4 Angels rather than throwing 4cc solutions like Supreme Verdict at 1cc-3cc threats.

Did anyone test the idea?

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Someone Top 8'd with a Quad-Entreat Miracles deck where they said the Entreats were just as good as sweepers in surprising the opponent. Here it is:
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/56070

I personally feel like Terminus is just too good to cut. It's a 1 mana board wipe that can totally catch people off guard. For match ups like DnT, Terminus is very very important when you can't resolve a big Entreat due to mana disruption. Other times, it can be hard to fight through Spell Pierce/Daze/Wastelands/Ports.

In my experience, Swords is almost always reserved for Tar Pit. REB needs to hit Jace, Ancestral, or Tar Pit.

Blood Moon of course is very good if it can be dropped early or onto a clean board. There are some board states where Blood Moon does nothing or even hinders you as well though.

RIP is pretty good for resetting Goyfs and Deathrites, but expect it to receive an Abrupt Decay. Recently I'm considering boarding out the Helm and just leaving 2-3 RIPs in the deck solely for stalling purposes.

Entreat and Elspeth are both very good and probably your main wincons, along with occasional Venser/Clique beats. Elspeth jumping your Venser is particularly nice since they have practically no answer for that. Like Carsten and Lemnear mentioned, if you have the opportunity to be the aggressor in this MU then take it.

I've found bringing in all the Leylines of Sanctity to be overkill since they likely board out some of their hand disruption, but I like bringing in a mise Leyline to tutor for if they threaten Liliana.

You probably don't need a ton of extra sweepers, especially sorcery speed ones because Tar Pit and Jace are also huge threats that are just as likely to kill you as their multitude of value weenies. You can bring in like one extra Supreme Verdict if you want or maybe a Pyroclasm, but more is overkill and won't help you against their planeswalkers and Tar Pits.

I would expect them to board out most of their discard and to bring in Lilianas, Maelstrom Pulses, and Golgari Charms. Some of the better Shardless players I've seen will leave in FoW against Miracles since our best routes to victory against them are our big bomby cards, so expect that.

The feeling I got when playing these games was that they came down to the same thing. My hand was empty and his hand was full, he landed threats (deathrite, goyf, bob) that I needed to take care of quite soon. He kept his hymns in and took out his fow's and every game he landed atleast one hymn early, stripping me of venser/jace/clique/lands that I needed to handle his t3/t4 threats. Every game preboard I felt that I struggled to find an entreat and never found it in time to close the match. The counterbalance hardly did anything since he got things on the board before it resolved most of the time and just waited for a decay/pulse and then took care of it.

After board I could see myself board 3 reb, 2 blood moon, 1 verdict, 2 misdirection and that being the optimal sideboard, but then on the other hand, he slams a bob and goes to town and I cant find the plow fast enough. Just one little card can turn the whole game if I dont have the right answer for it.

I will try your sideboard changes this friday and hope it helps.

To me the matchup vs Shardless BUG is about beating their cardadvantage from Visions and Jace. Their clock is not very fast so I wouldn't worry to much about their goyfs and shardless agents beating down.
Miracles have Entreat so the super-late-game will favor us from about any boardposition. Because of that the Shardless-BUG opponent is often forced to be proactive. Thoughtseize, Hymn and liliana serves that purpose and normaly bury us in cardadvantage/disadvantage before we can entreat for the win. From time to time there might be a few FoW left in their deck post-board but I wouldn't worry so much about that. I personally think FoW is better than Hymn like Dzra mentioned but it's still a fair and very beatable card.

I think we can all agree that FoW is bad vs Hymn to tourach. But I would rather shrug Hymn of than try to fight it with Divert/Misdirection. Because our gameplan is to Entreat we don't want conditional topdecks on our way to the super-late-game. All those conditional cards only makes their otherwise dead discard live again. As long as you keep their blue cards (and liliana) out of the way you will get virtual CA from the fact that they draw a worthless hymn every now and then when you have no hand (and perhaps a top and a jace in play). I would go with Lemnear's advice and increase the number of Entreats (or other "bombs") post-board instead of trying to fight their discard. The best card by far versus them are red blasts. If you send me your list we can discuss that. In general I would advice against keeping situational cards and keep reactive, discardable, cards to a minimum.

I normally board;
-4 fow -4 Stp -2 snare
+4 blasts +1 needle +2 rip +1 EE +1 entreat +1 verdict

If they also have bob I would keep stp and remove terminus instead and keep spell snare over CS. He matters that much.

Keep all creatures with flash as they are the best way to fight lilly.

Notion thief must be killed on sight so STP is ok to take heat of your overworking red blasts.

Red is indeed important at fighting Shardless BUG, as you guys clarified above. But even white offers good cards they don't want to see.

1) Elspeth, Knight Errant: A big white Bomb, protects itself, offers a fast clock and a very useful ultimate.
2) Baneslayer Angel: Can't be Decayed, is big enough to block most of their threats, only Tarmogoyf might be a problem if we happen to have no RIP, Lifelink for stalling purposes, 5 dmg in the air for killing purposes.
3) Timely Reinforcements: Easily castable, stabilises on both, board and lifetotal, offer a good possibility to threaten opposing planeswalkers (just like Lingering Souls would), card lives to it's full potenial in Snapcaster Mage's build.sadly they are strictly worse than either RIP or Legend ones)
4) Entreat the Angles: Opponents don't play taxing counters, hence the card lives up to it's full potential, smashes hordes of attacking creatures, threatens opposing Walkers and offers a fast way to victory.

Your plan should probably evolve about your own Walkers, wipe the board, smash Elspeth/Jace. As long as they don't have 1-2 Visions going off you should be in a good position. If they have those Visions? Well, everybody gotta die somewhen. This is not a good MU, but no reason to run around screaming or anything. Prepare for them, smash them. Lack answers in your sideboard? Well, guess who's fault it is, you aren't winning?

Oh and yes, REB + Moon is awesome.

Greetings

Does anyone have some advice for the matchups vs the MUD decks? I have not faced it yet, but after thinking about how the matchup goes and potential sideboard plans I have no idea what to board. I use Joe's list and I think - 1 flusterstorm -1 counterbalance -1 misdirection -3 FOW -1 RIP + 2 EE +1 entreat +1 needle +1 wear//tear +1 venser is how i would board.
Does anyone have advice and/or suggestions for this matchup?

A friend of mine plays MUD, and on our way to Top64 at GP Strasbourg we battled each other in Round 9 of D1. I didn't play the MU a lot but probably more than others - cause I actually have played it yet :D

I lost the said game in R9. 0-2. How I think you should approach the MUD-MU?
Keep Forces in, max the Forces. Their stuff is unfair. You don't want a Karn to resolve, you don't want a Chalice to resolve, especially when you are OtD. Keep those Forces. Max on Removal. It is a very easy game, basically: He deploys threat, you handle it. It gets tough when the opponent starts to manascrew you WHILE deploying threats. That's how I lost at the GP. But they don't have everything all the time. Plan on smashing Jace T4 - that's your goal #1. Jace acts as permanent removal and grants you enough time to draw into removal. In the sideboard you want Disenchant/Wear//Tear and Humility. Keep in Spell Pierces too. Board out the RIP/Helm and the Counterbalances.

I hope I could help you something.

Greetings

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Originally Posted by SageShadows

You also might want to consider playing Misdirection somewhere in your 75. They're great against Shardless BUG (Just think about all of those targets you can Misdirection, including Ancestral Recall, Hymn, Maelstrom Pulse, Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize in a pinch) and do pretty well against any Abrupt Decay deck and any decks where you will expect a large counter war.

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This.

It's not that Counterbalance can't handle Ancestral Visions and more Entreats mean more 3cc cards to flip to CB :/

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Keep Forces in, max the Forces. Their stuff is unfair. You don't want a Karn to resolve, you don't want a Chalice to resolve, especially when you are OtD. Keep those Forces. Max on Removal. It is a very easy game, basically: He deploys threat, you handle it. It gets tough when the opponent starts to manascrew you WHILE deploying threats. That's how I lost at the GP. But they don't have everything all the time. Plan on smashing Jace T4 - that's your goal #1. Jace acts as permanent removal and grants you enough time to draw into removal. In the sideboard you want Disenchant/Wear//Tear and Humility. Keep in Spell Pierces too. Board out the RIP/Helm and the Counterbalances.

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Yeah, pretty much this. I'd take out Counterbalances and some number of RIPs. Leaving in one and Helm isn't awful if you don't need the room, but if you can find stuff to board in, I would. Like Einherjer said, max out on counter magic (especially FoW) and max out on removal of all sorts (Terminus, Verdict, Swords, ORing, DSphere, EE, etc). Venser is really great for bouncing their expensive guys or even just for stalling them. Clique is pretty solid since they have a lot of dead draws. Pithing Needle is recommended mainly to name Karn or Forgemaster, but they have a ton of Needle targets to hit. Entreat is also pretty hard for them to deal with, especially if they've hit themselves with Ancient Tomb a couple times.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

It's not that Counterbalance can't handle Ancestral Visions and more Entreats mean more 3cc cards to flip to CB :/

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Counterbalance really isn't bad against BUG, it's just unreliable. Yes, it will always trade one-for-one or better, and sometimes they won't find the Decay for a while and you'll get some good value. A lot of the time though, you'll have a Counterbalance + Top and are feeling good facing down one counter left on their Ancestral Visions only to have them Abrupt Decay during your end step. All that said... I'd leave in the Counterbalances if I had room, but I'd rather board in bombs and hope to win by going over the top. Just accept the fact that you will likely go into topdeck mode (either through discard or their multitude of 2-for-1s) and work to set up the quickest, biggest Entreat that you can.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Counterbalance really isn't bad against BUG, it's just unreliable. Yes, it will always trade one-for-one or better, and sometimes they won't find the Decay for a while and you'll get some good value. A lot of the time though, you'll have a Counterbalance + Top and are feeling good facing down one counter left on their Ancestral Visions only to have them Abrupt Decay during your end step. All that said... I'd leave in the Counterbalances if I had room, but I'd rather board in bombs and hope to win by going over the top. Just accept the fact that you will likely go into topdeck mode (either through discard or their multitude of 2-for-1s) and work to set up the quickest, biggest Entreat that you can.

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I feel like boarding in as many targets for the Abrupt Decays is best. Though I haven't played enough games to say with any certainty, Joe explained that you want to overload them with as many Abrupt Decay targets as possible. If you can get even one enchantment to stick (hopefully Rest in Peace), you'll be ahead of the game. Don't side out things to allow their Abrupt Decay to hit your most powerful things. Definitely try to set up Entreat though; that card is bloody amazing and an Entreat with a REB backup for any Forces is great.

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Originally Posted by SageShadows

I feel like boarding in as many targets for the Abrupt Decays is best. Though I haven't played enough games to say with any certainty, Joe explained that you want to overload them with as many Abrupt Decay targets as possible. If you can get even one enchantment to stick (hopefully Rest in Peace), you'll be ahead of the game. Don't side out things to allow their Abrupt Decay to hit your most powerful things. Definitely try to set up Entreat though; that card is bloody amazing and an Entreat with a REB backup for any Forces is great.

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Actually, I'm not even sure with RiP = will be ahead statement. It is still possible to get your life total chipped to death by Tarpit and Shardless.

The problem is not protecting your Entreat. If I had REB at some point in my hand, I would have probably spent it on Ancestral Vision or Jace or Tarpit, if not getting discarded by Liliana and others already.

I've been really digging Misdirection in my build lately and have been testing 1-2 maindeck. It's just so good against BUG and Jund and can function as a pseudo-counterspell is so many situations.

I'm playing a UWr build with 3 MD RIPs and 1 Helm, so Misdirection is really necessary.