[Primer/Deck] Pox

Is there a reason why you guys don't post much about Loam Pox. I played mono black for a year and have upgraded it to loam pox. What are your guys opinions on the variants of the deck? This is my deck list btw.

Land: (27)
1 Forest
1 Barren Moor
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
4 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Creature:(1)
1 Nether Spirit
Non-Creature Spells:(32)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation
3 Entomb
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Life from the Loam
1 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sinkhole

Worm harvest is a beating against miracles. You should likely be running at least a 1 of in your 75. A friend of mine runs it because it's really good in that match up. They have trouble keeping up with it.

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Originally Posted by SuggaJamz

Is there a reason why you guys don't post much about Loam Pox. I played mono black for a year and have upgraded it to loam pox. What are your guys opinions on the variants of the deck? This is my deck list btw.

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Most players here seem to be on Mono black pox, which is why Loam Pox does not see as much discussion time.

I would say you 100% need a Tabernacle, I know they are expensive but there is a reason for that.

Worm Harvest as suggested is good for the Miracles match-up, I personally have been running 2 Garruk, Relentless for the Miracles match-up.

I also have been loving 1-2 Sensei's Diving Top, we have so many ways to clear the top 3 cards that it is amazing.

Cabal Therapy is another card I'd recommend even as a one-of to entomb for.

Otherwise I like the numbers for your list.

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Originally Posted by SuggaJamz

Is there a reason why you guys don't post much about Loam Pox?

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"However, Pox is able to operate on very little land (a reason for staying monocolor) and has no qualms about playing with an empty hand, as it means Nether Spirit gets to the graveyard, Cursed Scroll becomes reliable, and Liliana of the Veil can use her +1 with no drawback." - Reid Duke

That was from his Starcitygames article "Introducing Mono Black Pox in Legacy".

Yes it's old and some would say out of date, but ultimately, it's a totally valid reason. When you're losing land to removal (Mishra's getting hit by terminus, yes they will use it for just one and that is a setback) Wastelands, Smallpox, and Big Pox, being able to run on less land is a good thing. By splashing a color, you need more lands to function cause you need that second color. I've tried Loam Pox and it doesn't work for me as I spend more time 'durdling' instead of actually doing something to my opponent. Another reason why I've removed 2 Crucibles from my main list.

This has caused the majority of Pox mages to be Mono-B and by statistics, if more people are Mono-B Pox, it'll top 8 more. This is why we don't see many Golgari Poxers and Vaka Pox is all but utterly dead. Which sucks cause I wanted a Vindicate to run land kill, but then I find myself color screwed when I proxied up the deck.

About Worm Harvest, it's a monster and can be ran in Mono-B. Late game a Pox player will inevitably have 5+ lands. When you're top decked swamps can Retrace five 1/1s due to your wastelands, extra Urborg's, and sacrificed lands sitting in your yard, that is late game murder right there. Problem is, it doesn't play nice with Night of Souls' Betrayal. I've moved mine to the Sideboard and don't have space for Worm harvest but it is something to consider.

On this note I have finally come back to pox and will be piloting my black white pox list tomorrow night

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

Worm Harvest as suggested is good for the Miracles match-up, I personally have been running 2 Garruk, Relentless for the Miracles match-up.

I also have been loving 1-2 Sensei's Diving Top, we have so many ways to clear the top 3 cards that it is amazing.

Cabal Therapy is another card I'd recommend even as a one-of to entomb for.

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What does you current list look like?

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Originally Posted by SuggaJamz

What does you current list look like?

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Check out post #2462 on page 124 of this tread. That is the last time we had a good conversation about loam pox. That list is within 3-4 cards of what I played at GP Columbus last month.

Sorry for not Cut and pasting here but there is a lot of info from the conversation that would have been too big of a single post.

Big reason I don't post about loam pox is that every time I have built it it has felt like I was playing a loan deck that used smallpox instead of a pox deck that used loam. I sleeve 4 smallpox because that is one of my favorite cards to cast, has been since it was printed.
Other thing, I don't feel it is terribly problematic to run a second support color as long as you don't mind using some number of mox diamonds instead of some of your rituals (check most lists I post and my top 16 list from last December) basic mana base for b/g starts 1 bayou, 1 Forest, 4 factory, 4 wasteland, 3-4 urborg, 4 verdant catacomb, 2-4 other b fetch(depending on urborg count and mox diamond vs dark ritual) 7-10 swamp to finish your 25 land. From there you can tinker with it to your satisfaction (bojuka bog, cabal pit, tabernacle, dust bowl, etc.)
Alternatives for the miracles matchup are other big, powerful effects (nether void, pox, tombstalker ) that can end the game in a hurry and require an answer while they are on the stack, as they actually have very few counterspells, and counterbalance isn't reliable on spells above 2cmc. Advantage off lands is also helpful (sea-gate wreckage, dust bowl to force their fetch lands) in forcing them to move on their brainstorms and tops when you want them to as opposed to when they want to.

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Originally Posted by mykatdied

On this note I have finally come back to pox and will be piloting my black white pox list tomorrow night

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keep us posted dude.. :cool:

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

keep us posted dude.. :cool:

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We'll see how it goes, I checked over my decklist and had an awkward moment where I forgot that night of souls betrayal and bitterblossom don't have synergy. All fixed up though. I'll post about my outing late tonight.
Decklist
// Deck: pox b/w (61)

// Lands
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
1 Nether Spirit
2 Tombstalker

// Spells
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Helm of Obedience
SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Vindicate

Only 2 Vindicate? Isn't it the strongest removal spell in existence right now? The fact it can be countered is irrelevant. Also, would it be worth using Snow Covered lands with SDT to create a card advantage engine in Scrying Sheets? I've used it before for my old Snow Pox but it worked better in my magic coach's mono-W control home brew.

I've got an Underground Sea for trade that could help me build a 'basic' Vaka Pox just without Chains of Mephistopheles. The newly printed Vindicate is bawsome sauce.

6 threats. I've found 8 to be my safest minimum but with that much disruption, getting down to 6 could work. Why not run ghostly prison?

If you include scroll as a finisher I have 8. Not that it does the best job at finishing a game. I am actually wondering if I should move towards bitterblossom with a jitte or 2. I really like having faerie rogues equipped with jitte for so much value.

Helm-leyline is an alternative combo kill out of the board against graveyard based decks

2 Vindicate with a 3rd in the biard is just to answer problem permanents or supplement the land destruction if I sense weakness. The 3 cmc plus white mana I am very weary of. If I make changes before tonight I will post them here.

This is the list I settled on for my 0-3 night, not including 2 byes (which I now know is possible). So 2-3.
Deck: pox b/w (61)

Lands 24
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Creatures 3
1 Nether Spirit
2 Tombstalker

Spells 34
2 Bitterblossom
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vindicate

Sideboard 15
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Nether Void
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vindicate

Round 1 Bye

Round 2 vs Shardless Bug
Game 1 - He outvalued me with several Ancestral Visions and a Baleful Strix kept my Tombstalker at bay until his Liliana came down to kill Stalker, I had him at 4 life and if I had not missed my Nether Spirit trigger for 3 turns I likely would have gotten there.

Game 2 - He kept a 1 land, Deathrite, Ancestral, Brainstorm, Decay, some other card hand. I took the brainstorm, Swords the deathrite. He suspended 2 ancestral visions to I wastelanded his 1 land and Enlightened Tutor for Chains of Mephistopheles to he scooped before his Visions came off suspend.

Game 3 - I drew very little of relevance and he outvalued me very quickly.


Round 3 vs BUG Value
Game 1 - He had every cantrip, answer and card draw available to outgrind me. Pulse for a Tombstalker and I couldn't close it out. Very yard heavy though.

Game 2 - I open with Leyline, we have an awkward first 6 turns. I draw Helm of Obedience and a 4th land to cast and then activate next turn when he can't do anything.

Game 3 - Got out valued again. He killed my Bitterblossom, Chains of Mephistopheles and then cast every cantrip and a Tombstalker of his own to close it out.

Round 4 vs Ant
Game 1 - He had turn 2 kill and I had no turn 1 play, would have had hymn turn 2.

Game 2 - He killed me again turn 1. I cast Inquisition taking LED and then play turn 2 Liliana off second land + mox diamond and he wrecked me on his turn 2 with a lucky top deck Empty the Warrens which I had no out to. I completely forgot to plan for that.

Round 5 bye.

Didn't play against the best match ups. But my play could have clearly been much better. I suppose it really has been way too long and my lists are becoming outdated.

Mana wasn't particularly an issue very often.

I hated having Crucible of Worlds. Never really felt the need to draw and have it on board ever. It might have been ok, but it didn't feel wanted.

Sensei's Divining Top isn't something I ran in this version before and I don't think I like having it here.

I will likely go up to 3 Bitterblossom and add a 2nd Jitte in place of the Tops. I will likely drop Crucible of Worlds for a 25th land.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mykatdied

This is the list I settled on for my 0-3 night, not including 2 byes (which I now know is possible). So 2-3.
Deck: pox b/w (61)

Lands 24
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
3 Marsh Flats
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
3 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Creatures 3
1 Nether Spirit
2 Tombstalker

Spells 34
2 Bitterblossom
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vindicate

Sideboard 15
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Nether Void
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vindicate

Round 1 Bye

Round 2 vs Shardless Bug
Game 1 - He outvalued me with several Ancestral Visions and a Baleful Strix kept my Tombstalker at bay until his Liliana came down to kill Stalker, I had him at 4 life and if I had not missed my Nether Spirit trigger for 3 turns I likely would have gotten there.

Game 2 - He kept a 1 land, Deathrite, Ancestral, Brainstorm, Decay, some other card hand. I took the brainstorm, Swords the deathrite. He suspended 2 ancestral visions to I wastelanded his 1 land and Enlightened Tutor for Chains of Mephistopheles to he scooped before his Visions came off suspend.

Game 3 - I drew very little of relevance and he outvalued me very quickly.


Round 3 vs BUG Value
Game 1 - He had every cantrip, answer and card draw available to outgrind me. Pulse for a Tombstalker and I couldn't close it out. Very yard heavy though.

Game 2 - I open with Leyline, we have an awkward first 6 turns. I draw Helm of Obedience and a 4th land to cast and then activate next turn when he can't do anything.

Game 3 - Got out valued again. He killed my Bitterblossom, Chains of Mephistopheles and then cast every cantrip and a Tombstalker of his own to close it out.

Round 4 vs Ant
Game 1 - He had turn 2 kill and I had no turn 1 play, would have had hymn turn 2.

Game 2 - He killed me again turn 1. I cast Inquisition taking LED and then play turn 2 Liliana off second land + mox diamond and he wrecked me on his turn 2 with a lucky top deck Empty the Warrens which I had no out to. I completely forgot to plan for that.

Round 5 bye.

Didn't play against the best match ups. But my play could have clearly been much better. I suppose it really has been way too long and my lists are becoming outdated.

Mana wasn't particularly an issue very often.

I hated having Crucible of Worlds. Never really felt the need to draw and have it on board ever. It might have been ok, but it didn't feel wanted.

Sensei's Divining Top isn't something I ran in this version before and I don't think I like having it here.

I will likely go up to 3 Bitterblossom and add a 2nd Jitte in place of the Tops. I will likely drop Crucible of Worlds for a 25th land.

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ancestral visions has always been a pain in the neck for us pox pilots for it can undo all the disruption that we've done..we can hymn, sinkhole, etc them and they can just get right back and recover by drawing 3 cards off it, it sucks..i like your chains in the main, i'm sure it'll do work against those pesky brainstorms and ancestral visions if you drew it..i don't own chains but i found trinisphere to be very good too against decks that run brainstorm and ancestral visions, etc..i would probably drop the helm/void package for some copies of trinisphere and/or more chains..and i'd probably just run extraction effects to combat graveyard shenanigans which i feel aren't really that rampant lately..


p.s.
placing a die on top of my library keeps me from forgetting upkeep triggers..i had to learn it the hard way, lost some games coz' i often forget it too in the past.. ;)

In regards to forgetting triggers, I mumble to myself as I play, "Untap, Upkeep, Draw" and I notice that it keeps me in step and tends to annoy the impatient. I only 'forget' Nether Spirit triggers when the enemy has a card in hand, could be a Swords. Who knows? I think I'll squeeze in a single Spinning Darkness to prevent getting double Nethered. I forgot how it happened but I got jammed once due to it and I couldn't remove one.

Since Ancestral has a 0 cc it works to play chalice for zero.

I'm usually great with upkeep triggers. It could just be the fact that I'm not used to upkeep triggers from the graveyard. I'll definitely have to use a dice while I get back into the swing of things.

I usually run 2/1 Extirpate/surgical or 3 Extirpate since not only do they flat out answer a specific card, but they also can add to the mana denial plan. I will likely go back to this once I pick the deck up again. The 3 Leyline will likely be the 2/1 split of Extirpate/surgical then use the helm slots for an extra chains and Trinisphere, which is what my bw tutor board usually looks like but I wanted to test leyline helm combo out of the side.

I also usually announce my phases as I go through my turn to help remember that I have triggers. On Death and taxes I miss a vial trigger once every 50 times probably. Its likely best to be safe than sorry and get in the habit of using a dice.

On Extirpate for mana denial, one could also look into Misinformation. If your enemy misses a land drop, Misinforming him will cause him to miss 3 more after a hymn & smallpox combo.

Extirpate can also be used in response to SDT usage for when they try to Miracle you with either Terminus or Entreat, the problem is you have to be QUICK. I fallen asleep at the wheel at times due to that since I don't 'stack battle' often with Pox. Also great for when they try to place a 3 drop on top using their counterbalance/top combo to counter your Liliana.

Hmm, sideboard decisions. Personally, I don't think a transformative sideboard into 'combo pox' is a good idea. At least for the mono colored Pox mages since we need answers and we are just not a combo deck at the core. Why not play a real combo deck? I think the only 'combo' pox I've seen that's resilient enough is Dark Depths Thespian or the older school Dark Depths Vamp Hexmage setup. Problem is the GY hate is strong in my meta.

I like a Pox deck that scoffs at hate. :cool:

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Extirpate can also be used in response to SDT usage for when they try to Miracle you with either Terminus or Entreat

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I actually won a tournament off of this interaction to beat an Entreat. Surgical might be better so that you can pop it out of nowhere and don't have to worry about keeping the mana open. They get a chance to respond or can use Counterbalance, but they have to awkwardly use mana to filter and can whiff on it.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

I actually won a tournament off of this interaction to beat an Entreat. Surgical might be better so that you can pop it out of nowhere and don't have to worry about keeping the mana open. They get a chance to respond or can use Counterbalance, but they have to awkwardly use mana to filter and can whiff on it.

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I suppose in this scenario if you know they are about to use entreat you at least tie up an additional 2 mana in order to counter the surgical so you can't disrupt the miracle. Which is also relevant since 2 less angels gives you more time and life to answer however many they could make.

I definitely overall prefer Extirpate since the split second is worth it. No cycle in response to save a dredger like loam, golgari grave troll, etc. No countermagic to stop you from taking all the tropical islands out of rug delver and other plays of that nature.