I was starting to think i was the only one not seeing the appeal of these twins. Is a 4/4 half Oracle of mull daya what we want to be doing? Is trample that usefull in jund?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
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I was starting to think i was the only one not seeing the appeal of these twins. Is a 4/4 half Oracle of mull daya what we want to be doing? Is trample that usefull in jund?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Enviado de meu XT1225 usando Tapatalk
@Mina and Denn, Wildborn: this seems to be a relatively weak card, to me [edit: to mee too, sorry I somehow missed Bobman's post which I agree with in more words below].
It's pretty good next to a Courser of Kruphix. That is however entirely due to the Courser, since it is the Courser that provides the card advantage.
By itself, Mina and Denn does very little. You already have four lands in play when you can play it. You're mostly happy with 5-6 lands in play to execute your game plan, Mina and Denn allows you to play land number 5 and 6 one turn quicker for the cost of a card slot. It does not provide any card advantage or life gain. If this was very good we could play Explore, which is actually a cantrip.
I would rather add a second copy of Courser, a fourth copy of SDT or a first/second copy of Sylvan Library before adding the first copy of Mina and Denn to a decklist.
Also, it is vulnerable to Karakas, which we don't need in the Miracles or D&T matchups.
On the upside, it does come as a GSZ-able 4/4 creature, which is pretty good. And being able to present two lands a turn with an active Courser does allow you to pull away quickly. When playing Punishing Fit with Burning Wishes a while ago I was able to reanimate an opposing Oracle of Mul Daya which really allowed my to pull away in that game. So I may be wrong on this one. Speaking of which, doesn't Oracle seem better than Mina and Denn, too? It's like a Courser AND a Mina and Denn. Only problem is 2 toughness, of course. Can't have it all.
Hey.
Apologies if this doesn't count as Nic Fit. And apologies if it looks too casual. It's bad against storm, but LGS meta is >70% Jund, D&T, Elves, and various flavors of Delver.
I think the name might be already taken, but I call it Planeswalker Nic Fit. Besides doofus beatdown, Planeswalkers are only win condition. I think it's sort of in the grey area between a real deck and a fun deck.
Sideboard definitely a work in progress.
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Baleful Strix
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Altar's Reap
2 Brainstorm
1 Recoil
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn Liberated
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Gaea's Blessing
2 Ponder
1 Red Sun's Zenith
1 Temporal Spring
1 Vindicate
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Mana Confluence
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Powersink
1 Counterspell
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wasteland
1 Life From the Loam
1 Darkblast
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Thragtusk
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Meddling Mage
1 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
I think this is the kind of deck that fucks its pilot in the ass far too often to be enjoyable in any form or way.Quote:
Originally Posted by RokiLothbard
Let's start with the manabase. You start off with 14 initial green manasources, which is right on the money, but drop down from there. This means you'll lose enough games to not having the right mana at the right time. That's the first red flag.
Then, to compensate for the high mana drops your deck wants to drop you somehow forego Cabal Therapy, taking away the Veteran Explorer + Cabal Therapy (otherwise known as the only reason this deck is even somewhat viable). And rather than resort to standard, permanent answers you come up with shit like Recoil and Temporal Spring. So no cheap, effective removal to compensate for the lack of speed either.
Furthermore some of the planeswalkers in your list just suck ass (Ashiok, really..?) or are too expensive to reliably cast (Karn).
Also, Gaea's Blessing and Altar's Reap don't have any right to be in that list. If you want a 2 CMC sac outlet, use Diabolic Intent. At least that draws you exactly what you need.
I'd start with either reworking the manabase (with 10 fetches and 10 duals, you'll have 14 initial mana across the board, for instance. No basic lands though) or dropping 2 colours entirely and replacing Nevinyrral's Disk and Gaea's Blessing with 4 Cabal Therapy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RokiLothbard
Lol'd.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Agree with this. I applaud the concept, but consistancy is troubling.
Walker Fit is a delicate thing to play. In your meta i'd personally choose PFire NicFit as it has a favorable MU against the mentioned decks. But since i enjoy these kind of concosions i'd try to wrap together something to get some brewing going.
Yesterday i played my PFire list and had loads of fun.
2-1 RG Lands
G2&3: won both games on the back of Blood Moon. Also i found Scooze to be a strong card in this MU, IF you van boost his toughness to 3 or 5 to get in the PFire safezone.
2-1 Miracles
G1: Gave it away cus i misplayed on my Cabal Therapy and resolved a Veteran trigger in his benefit. He could protect his Jace from therapy and cast it after untapping. Bad, play, went yolo on the Veteran, which is wrong in this MU.
G2: he commited suicide by playing a Blood Moon on 2 Island and 1 Mountain. He didnt find a Plains for a sometime while i had Swagtusk beating him to crap.
G3 (i mulled to 5): Very grindy. Extracted Jace, StP and Mentor, but still took me a while to empty his resources and i could beat him down with Huntmaster (which nicely flipped b4 1st attack).
2-0 Elves
G1&2 build mana, on crucial turn Therapy on NO, flash it on Craterhoof. Pernicous Deed to reset board and maintained control with spot removal. Meren in both games for beatdown assisted with 2 Explorers. Having Deed is really important here.
Pro's; Blood Moon. And basicly everything in this deck is soo juicy. loving it.
Cons; didnt see SBD once in every game.
The manabase felt good, only once i color fucked myself by fetching a second swamp next to swamp, forest while holding a E. Witness. Luckily i had top and could dig up another land + GSZ to have Courser online. There where moments i was thinking about Volrath's Stronghold, wondering what it could have done for me on sutuations.
Considerations: adding 1 Toxic Deluge, maybe for the 3rd Slaughter Games.
Sometimes, having 3 Deeds feels to few. Could also see PFire nr 4 MD instead. Not sure yet.
That planeswalker fit deck is a mess. First get down to 3 colors. This will help your mana situation.
- Next, drop the things like recoil, alters reap etc. Add normal removal (decay, innocent blood) in place. Add therapy.
- Max out on BS and add ponder after that.
- Jace should be in the 3-4 range for this deck. I played 3 when I had a bug walkers type list. I also ran 2-3 lilies.
- I also had Flip-garruk but I was running 3 snapcasters so converting vets or strix into snap/tusk was fine if he flipped.
- I do not think I would play disk. It is very slow and you already have deed.
- If you go the blue route I might try to find room for fow. This gives you a slightly better combo game and also helps in that dropping a walker and fow the next threat lets the walker you played pull you ahead.
- The idea of vet plus walkers is totally valid but your list is certainly not tuned/tightened enough at this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RokiLothbard
This,Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
i was actually looking for that list (i think) Tom posted not so long ago.
Anyhow i slammed the deck together to match this more or less. Perhaps it is a good starting point for you. I think Blue is THE color to look in, since Jace... 3 Colors is fine. 4 or more is pushing it. Plus, space is soo freakin tight in WalkerFit list. More then any other list i feel (yes even more tight then Pod lists).
The list has a total of 16 U mana, 17 G mana and 24 B mana. The manabase (excluding creatures, including fetches) counts 11 U, 13 B and 11 G mana sources. More U.sea because UU or BB will matter from midgame on.
The deck hass 13 blue cards MD, meaning you want to get to 20 U cards Post board.
Depending on your choice of Innocent Blood or Disfigure you can choose to bring Deathrite Shaman or not. That means you could bring extra Walkers (3rd Jace, 2nd Vraska) and 4th Strix.
4/3 Baleful Strix
0/3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Disfigure/Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
2/3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1/2 Vraska the Unseen
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Brainstorm
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
SB:
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
8 flex
Hey All.
Thanks for responses. I think I'll probably play with Bobmans list some to see how it feels to play an actually tuned version.
But what the hell, will discuss/defend some of my choices.
1) Just noticed that's only 58 cards. I left off 2 Birds of Paradise from my initial listing. Sorry about that. They do help with the mana/ramp aspects, although of course they do just eat removal some of the time as you'd expect.
2) Diabolic Intent will go in for Altar's Reap right away. The instant speed just hasn't mattered that much, and it's pretty much always the first card out for sideboarding. I totally forgot that card existed.
3) The weird removal is because with 4 Deeds and 2 Disks, permanents for the most part are not my decks problem. When they are, then "nonstandard" removal sometimes gets around the problem. And Temporal Springs and Recoil both hit lands, so if the Deeds and Disks do their jobs, they still have targets. And when these cards end up being tempo-only kind of removal that is still often good enough with even 1 Planeswalker in play.
4) Gaea's Blessing : Hey Now you are messing with one of my Pet Cards Damnit! I actually just like being able to tune my deck as the game plays. Getting wastelanded in the early game? Shuffle lands back in. Have nothing else to do on turn 2? Just casting the first one as a pure cantrip isn't the end of the world. Need to shuffle? just cast it. Playing against High Tide? Auto win game 1 (LOL, this actually happened last night). Mid game shuffling in a Ponder,Deed and a dead planeswalker is not a bad play.
5) Ahsiok. I'll admit if I were to cut one walker, he's probably the first out. BUT, turn 2(and sometimes 3) he is sometimes good against fair decks. If control/stabilization has been achieved, he is a win con. With 6 Sweepers, his ultimate is actually relevant sometimes as opponent has to play weird game between commiting enough to the board to fight planeswalkers, but not so much to get 5-for-1'd or something.
6) Cabal Therapy. Ya. I can see now that I'm missing out on what makes this deck playable in a "real" meta. My deck was kind of an experiment for my LGS "meta". Was pretty much pre-conceding to most forms of combo. I've actually never played the card. So I'll shut up now until I take Bobmans deck for a test drive.
@3: The removal we play is in part there to deal with problems that Deed is too slow to handle in time. You can't just assume you'll make it to turn 4 when you spend all the time before that twiddling your thumbs. The cheaper removal suite we play is there to ensure we actually survive up to that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by RokiLothbard
@4: If that's the best you have to do on any of your turns, you're doing it wrong.
Hello, I'm currently testing the punishing fit list Bobmans linked on p138, and I'm liking it this far, and I'm taking it to legacy fnm tonight.
I have a couple of questions regarding blood moon in the board. No doubt it is incredibly strong vs a wide variety of decks, but do you board it in only vs decks with close to no basics/straight up no basics like RUG Delver, or do you take it in where usual blood moon decks do, vs decks with a "few" basics and let them find them with Dora. Or do you board Dora out in these cases where moon is good and you don't want to give them basics? (seems weak/slow). Just trying to understand the intent behind the card in this deck particular deck, and how it differs from others.
Also, I'm pretty new to this deck, but I've been playing punishing jund for a good while so that's why I'm trying the punishing list first. I've been lurking for a while and I love the take on decks, developments and discussions you have here and just want to say thank you!
Glad you like the list and hope it gets you some nice results. I have played Punishing Jund aswell, but favor this deck above it. It feels like i have way more control with this deck. That said, you still miss the power of Bolt, Hymn and Goyf sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by royalbasis
Blood Moon is only in the sideboard to battle Lands.dec, meaning if RG lands isnt a thing i would replace them. The upside is that some other matchups suffer from Bloon to. Your question more or less covers the answers. Decks like BUG/RUG/BRUG delver run 0 basics. Obviously we'd have a favorable MU against those already, but i would bring it in as a one-off and obviously it does not conflict with Veteran Explorer. Now BUG (and BRUG) run DRS, so timing it is key. Bloon is only working if A. It doesnt conflict your PFire and B. He doesnt have an immediate out to it. Shardless and Blade control decks are different in the way that those decks run basics. But resolving Veteran Explorer against those is often better then playing slow to launch Bloon. I might board Bloons in game 3 depending on G1/2, but i decide that on the fly. Lastly, do not forget decks like Infect, Turbo Eldrazi, MUD and Aggro Loam that also suffer from Bloon. Depending on your meta you can always change the Bloon's for something lile REB or Garruk Relentless (control) and/or Choke.
i was wondering how you like Stormbreath Dragon so far?
Thank you for the clarification, we usually see a bunch of the big mana decks or lands, so I think I will be boarding some REBs in their place.
On the Stormbreaths, I've been very happy with them. Of course they suffer from not-green syndrome, but with how quick and consistently they kill, and how hard they are to remove I don't think I will be dropping them anytime soon.
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Blood moon is only for decks with posts or marit lage. If you feel you have enough cards to board out then something like shardless is ok but turning off grove is not great because pfire is so great in that match up.
Post is an awful matchup, and Lands is a bad matchup, so if you're seeing those in your meta, 2-3 Moons is your best way to do it. I only have one Lands player in our group, so it isn't worth the slots for me. Needles still do serve some double duty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
-Matt
@Sdmatt- Agreed. When I was on pfire nic fit I had multiple lands and post players so I played moon. Unless the meta is very heavy I think your right in that you may just want to have things that do double duty rather than things like moon. That said moon is a great tool to have against those deck.
Good, then we all agree about Blood Moon.
Welp, I guess I'll shut up about Meren from now on; that card is absurd (at least in non-stp match ups).
What is the final consensus on P.Truths? I do have to say that I'm not really excited about it, because we have top already and I don't like to tap out/durdle without impacting the board (or opponent's hand) in any meaningful way. I have always played 3 tops, maybe the optimal split is 2 top 1-2 truths? I'd like to know your gentlemen's opinion about this, fellow jank enthusiasts.
Unless someone can show me the other side of the coin, I think top + fetches are better. If I wanted to abandon top (idk why one would do that), perhaps truths is its replacement. I feel Nic Fit has a LOT of garbage cards so raw "I'm drawing more cards" isn't half as important as drawing the right cards (card quality). Truths in Nic Fit is certainly compatable. You can ignore the color and life issues based on the shell of stuff you'd likely run. Then there is the ease of hitting 3 colors for 3 life to draw 3 cards. I just wonder if Nic Fit even needs raw draw. I think it just needs smarter card quality advantage and a way to stabilize more than anything.
I go back and forth on the kind of Nic Fit I'd enjoy. Pfires is strong right now (Jund removal in general). But so is Rock GBW. At the end of the day I want rhinos with pfires lol. I like Bobmans' new primer Jund list. Haven't had time to test it though. And the concept of Stormbreath Dragon in a meta with mentor, sfm, and DnT seems perfect when you also toss in Deed, Decay, and pfires.
*edited because typing on an iPhone sucks sometimes
Plus, then you can Deluge/Deed away all their little dudes. I'm waiting for mine in the mail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Good to hear Stormbreath Dragon gets some love. That it is not green is made up a bit for being such a monster. Plus, like said, it is strong in the current meta.
@ Meren; yes against StP she will probably eat a Swords on sight, but luckily we now have Stormbreath Dragon to present to them. Otherwise, Meren gives you a screaming orgasm. The card is so sweet. Dodging both Decay and Bolt is huge.
Now Rhino + PFire has been explored by Matt if i remember correct, but the manabase becomes way to greedy. I'll make a quick draft later on, just to see how it works on paper /theory crafting.
On the other hand; if Aggro Loam can support 4 colors, then why couldn't we?
EDIT:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan
3 Punishing Fire
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Dryad Militant
P.Truths; like i said earlier,this is how i feel. NicFit is (often) a slow grinding deck. What occurred to me is that i often only want ~1 card of the top 3 cards (seeing with top). So drawing 3 cards with Truths nets me ~1/2 useful card. I wont deny grabbing more cards gives you a (temporary) boost. Notice temporary, since it CAN put you over the top when timing is good, BUT since this is a slow deck by nature you'd want a recurring effect. So making SDT or Sylvan Library better choices. Now i also think that Sylvan Library is also a better buddy to P.Truths, because both allowing you to draw more cards stacking the effect (at a cost of shit loads of life). The benefits of top are mentioned that you can 1. reset the top 3 with fetch/gsz/veteran, 2. draw a card at instant speed. The last one can be crucial to against say discard. Storm can be won by a well timed Surgical Extraction or just Slaughter Games. Floating those cards on top to protect them from discard is really a plus of SDT.
Having that said, for as long as Top remains legal i don't think i would play P.Truths. I'd even consider running Diabolic Intent before Truths if i had room.
Now, If Top where to be banned i'd be looking into:
Mirri's Guile
Sylvan Library
Painful Truths
Diabolic Intent
Based on gut feeling i would run 2x Sylvan Library and 1x Painful Truths.
I have linked my sig to the list and added some eye candy to that post.