[Deck] Merfolk

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Originally Posted by Illissius

Oh man I think I read about that once. Can't remember where though.

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Lol... Yeah, actually I think WE were talking about it around here, once upon a time.

One question I've been pondering: if we're splashing, do we gain anything from using off-color fetches and thereby masquerading as a different deck? For example, let's say I'm running a list with the white splash, and I'm using Misty Rainforest and Scalding Tarn as my fetches... If my first turn play is fetch, pass (which is not really a very good play actually, but bear with me), how many times are my opponents going to think I'm Tempo Thresh? And do I actually gain anything from having this happen? It seems like probably not much, maybe they'll try to play around Stifle (which I can't really find room for in the white splash list anyways)... But do I actually gain anything from all these shenanigans?

Doesn't it depend on many factors? At a smaller event, people soon learn what everyone's playing after a round or two anyway. Even against a single given opponent, it will only last a turn or two during the first game. How much time do you want to lose bluffing while they easily get ahead of you? Merfolk seems to be more towards aggro than control on the aggro-control spectrum, so wasting time doesn't seem worth it. Some Merfolk players try to bluff Stifle anyway regardless of their fetches, so I'm not sure that's relevant. Are there any additional benefits? (I might run multiple types of fetches anyway in case someone wants to Extirpate or Needle them.)

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

Lol... Yeah, actually I think WE were talking about it around here, once upon a time.

One question I've been pondering: if we're splashing, do we gain anything from using off-color fetches and thereby masquerading as a different deck? For example, let's say I'm running a list with the white splash, and I'm using Misty Rainforest and Scalding Tarn as my fetches... If my first turn play is fetch, pass (which is not really a very good play actually, but bear with me), how many times are my opponents going to think I'm Tempo Thresh? And do I actually gain anything from having this happen? It seems like probably not much, maybe they'll try to play around Stifle (which I can't really find room for in the white splash list anyways)... But do I actually gain anything from all these shenanigans?

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You save a bit money because new fetchlands cost less than the old ones, Caleb. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

You save a bit money because new fetchlands cost less than the old ones, Caleb. :laugh:

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Lol... Yeah. Plus I already own 3 Tarn, 3 Misty, and no old blue fetches. So basically I'm just trying to convince myself that there are strategic benefits to what I'm already doing. You're onto me Fabio. :wink:

Anyways though, @Kirbysdl: Obviously if I had a relevant first turn play I'd go ahead and crack the fetch to play it. I was more saying like hypothetically if I have no first turn play after taking my mulligans.

Ok, my answer still stands. You're basically going to be relying on them overthinking what starts as an improbable event to begin with. In the end, you build your deck against a hypothetical good player. This hypothetical good player should realize that a blue-related fetch can grab any blue-related dual, and sure you're probably not playing mono-red burn, but he shouldn't read more into it than what actually exists.

I don't really think it matters much one way or another, as long as every fetch is as powerful as any other. Do people still Pithing Needle fetches? If so, I'd run 2 each instead of 4 and 4.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Ok, my answer still stands. You're basically going to be relying on them overthinking what starts as an improbable event to begin with. In the end, you build your deck against a hypothetical good player. This hypothetical good player should realize that a blue-related fetch can grab any blue-related dual, and sure you're probably not playing mono-red burn, but he shouldn't read more into it than what actually exists.

I don't really think it matters much one way or another, as long as every fetch is as powerful as any other. Do people still Pithing Needle fetches? If so, I'd run 2 each instead of 4 and 4.

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For a while, I think that you can trick your opponents into thinking that you're Thresh or whatever for one turn. But you're not going to change any plays. People play against no-one-drop Merfolk the same way that they play against no-one-drop-Threshold for the first turn or two.

You guys are making it sound like being able to fetch plains is completely worthless. But soon enough you'll be including creatures like weathered wayfarer (because you want to run broken cards, and it compliments your mana denial plan extremely well), and grunt because you'll want a cheap 4/4 that eats graveyards, etc. etc. You definitely want to be able to fetch basic white mana.

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Originally Posted by pi4meterftw

You guys are making it sound like being able to fetch plains is completely worthless. But soon enough you'll be including creatures like weathered wayfarer (because you want to run broken cards, and it compliments your mana denial plan extremely well), and grunt because you'll want a cheap 4/4 that eats graveyards, etc. etc. You definitely want to be able to fetch basic white mana.

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Methinks someone doesn't really play this deck that much. We only need our fetchlands to match the splash color if we want to include a basic land of thst color, and you'll hardly find any successful splashed lists that run non-island basic lands.

As far as using Wayfarer and Grunt, they're not ideal for this deck. You really need a damn good reason to play creatures that aren't Merfolk. Don't get me wrong, Grunt is decent, I've tested it as a sideboard card. It's not as reliable a source of graveyard hate as Relic or Crypt, although the 4/4 Body sometimes comes in handy. In the end I stopped running him, because I find he doesn't do enough against Dredge, or any other deck you need reliable , quick graveyard hosers for, like AggroLoam. As far as Wayfarer, this deck really isn't right for him. This thread isn't called "NoGoyf," and that's because this isn't that thread. They're different decks with different strategies, and it would make about as much sense for us to play Wayfarer as it would for y'all to play Lord of Atlantis.

Grunt is a house against Zoo and Threshold, not so much against Dredge or Reanimator (although he comes in, he's just not a house). If you're only testing him in against Dredge and Reanimator, you're doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

Grunt is a house against Zoo and Threshold, not so much against Dredge or Reanimator (although he comes in, he's just not a house). If you're only testing him in against Dredge and Reanimator, you're doing something wrong.

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took the words strait out of my mouth. this guy is a beating against thresh if he resolves as he makes every creature in there deck decidedly mediocre. also as far as white spells to splash for has there ever been any discussion of mother of runes in this deck as a sideboard card?

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

Grunt is a house against Zoo and Threshold, not so much against Dredge or Reanimator (although he comes in, he's just not a house). If you're only testing him in against Dredge and Reanimator, you're doing something wrong.

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Yeah, this is true. I've found he's also pretty good against Goblins, surprisingly. You don't need to mess with their graveyard, but I find this matchup turns into an attrition war pretty quick and there's usually plenty of Grunt food to go around. My problem with Grunt is that he can't really replace graveyard hate in the sideboard. And call me paranoid, but I always use at least a little bit of dedicated grave hate in my board when I run Merfolk. With that said, if anyone has two extra sideboard slots or so and is already splashing white, I'd recommend trying him for yourself, he can be pretty good.

@Yadda: Mother of Runes is an interesting idea, but I get the feeling Kira and Forge Tender are better matches for this deck. The main thing I would worry about is that Mom is kind of asking to have 4 slots in the sideboard if you use her. She would only break games in your favor if you play her really early, so you'd really really want her in your opening hand. I feel like basically she would just eat up too many sideboard slots in order to be able to play her effectively. But I'll admit, this is just me theorizing.

same just a brainstorm i had while playing a white weenie landfall thing that player her, albeit main deck. i kind of agree that you need to dedicate alot of space at least 3 slots, i dont know if the 4th one is really necassary. my argument for her over kira is that kira ofter doesnt get down in time to be game breaking cuz of her mana cost. that said kira is strictly more powerful against any deck we would really want her against i guess.

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Originally Posted by yadda

same just a brainstorm i had while playing a white weenie landfall thing that player her, albeit main deck. i kind of agree that you need to dedicate alot of space at least 3 slots, i dont know if the 4th one is really necassary. my argument for her over kira is that kira ofter doesnt get down in time to be game breaking cuz of her mana cost. that said kira is strictly more powerful against any deck we would really want her against i guess.

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Well, I'd hesitate to say strictly. Kira cannot give your creatures protection so that they can block (or attack unblocked). Also, Mom saves one creature from Firespout or Devastating Dreams.

I have found Kira comes down in time against Zoo. Typically if you just have like Lord of Atlantis, Cursecatcher, they'll continue to attack over you until you play the second Lord. If you can play Kira turn 3, then you can often catch them in an "oh crap, I tapped out for Tarmogoyf" situation, whereas Mother of Runes will never act as much of a surprise (unless you Vial her in), and generally swaps 1:1 with burn instead of a much-needed 2:1.

How bad is the matchup vs. Zoo and how can we improve it?

Out of the board they often have either fallout, firespout, needle to name a few.

Does Stifle+Wastland+Back to Basics do anything against them, or they can operate on v little land? How much do Kira and/or Hydoblast do?

I haven't played Merfolk in awhile and was wondering if B2B has fallen out of favour as I didnt see it in some lists (only relevant for mono-U obv).

I suppose this is a ridiculous longshot, but has anyone tried Mana Vortex against Zoo? I've found my worst games against Zoo are when they get enough mana to explode freely on my face, and Vortex has the potential to shrink both Nacatl and Ape. Vortex might have other uses against control as well.

I assume it would do far too little too late, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

@Tacosnape re: Mana Vortex -> Could be interesting as part of a LD suite (with stifle), but maybe we trade lands and they destroy it with Pridemage?

Of all the Legacy decks I play, Merfolks sideboard seems the tightest. Mainly because as a DTB, everyone is gunning for us :( Not sure MV could squeeze in.

Edit: Has anyone used SoF&I successfully? Good against Goblins, the mirror, Dragon & Faerie Stompy, Zoo burn.

If Jitte is too slow (and we consistently say that it is) then I can only suspect that SOFI is no better. Sure it pumps the same turn as it equips, but you need another mana to cast it. Then there's the problem of getting him through when they've had a turn to prepare for it (as you're unlikely to have 5 mana early on). There's Islandwalk and Sovereign for evasion, but it's still anything but guaranteed.

Zoo decks tend to run one of each basic, which is typically all they need to cast their deck. Back to Basics might work if they aren't careful, but by the time it comes down they could have all of their basics out. Chalice for 1 would be awesome against them, with Stifle/Countermagic to stop Pridemages.

Here's another way of stating the problem: we think that StP is generally good against Zoo, but conceivably there's something better in the side to use against them, so what's our best bet of a post-sideboard deck against Zoo? What would you take out, and what would you put in?

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Here's another way of stating the problem: we think that StP is generally good against Zoo, but conceivably there's something better in the side to use against them, so what's our best bet of a post-sideboard deck against Zoo? What would you take out, and what would you put in?

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Here are our maindeck cards that I see as being bad against Zoo: Definitely Standstill goes out. Aether Vial can be somewhat slow. Daze is sometimes bad because their shit's so cheap and you don't want to get too far behind on mana. Cursecatcher is pretty sub-par against them because their one mana creatures are ridiculously big in comparison, although the only thing that could take his place in this matchup, IMO, would be another creature or some hard removal (like PtE, etc)

And here are all the options I can think of against them: Hydroblast/BEB. PtE. StP. Submerge. Kira. Mind Harness. Chalice @ 1(?). Engineered Explosives(?). Jotun Grunt(?). Relic (somewhat unimpressive). Goyfs of our own.

I think EE might be a decent option for Merfolk with a splash color, since it seems pretty versatile against Zoo, and it has wide uses in other matchups, from blowing up artifact mana and whatnot to killing Dredge tokens. It might be slow against Zoo, I'm not too sure. But I would think theoretically, running a list with the white splash, you could use point removal on their Goyfs or Pridemages, get them to overextend just a smidge, and then use EE to mop up all their one drops. Anyone tried this out ever?

Merfolk decks vary wildly now. I think most people would be happy to look at your deck and tell you how they would board.


A lot depends on the board options and what strategy you're trying/are forced to execute.

If you're running Jitte and no Stifle, your best bet is to fight through their removal and Qasali's and try to win off of an active Jitte.

If you're running Stifle and no Jitte, your best bet is to try to go for a quick kill and hope that you can buy yourself enough time with land kill (or that they kept a land-light hand and can't draw a second and third land).


Neither is an over 50% option, but whether you're trying to win by turn 4 through an opponent's mana screw or try to play an attrition match will change how you board. There's certainly some barrier to entry for the different strategies.

For instance: Chill might be a good option if you're trying to race them and keep them mana screwed. Chill and two land destruction can blank all of their red spells for a while. Chill also virtually comboes with Kira to blank all of their removal. It would take 4 land, Path, and a second burn spell (or 2 land, 2 path) to remove Kira, and they still run into the problem that you might have Countermagic, ruining their whole set up.

If you're going for the Jitte plan, Chill is awful. You're not killing their land, and you're not killing them quickly, so they'll have time to resolve any burn they have. Also, no Kira and their burn is still tempo-efficient against your creatures once you go for the Jitte.

I think Forbiddian's analysis is pretty dead on.

I've personally gone the Jitte route in sideboard. I can't beat Goblins consistently without them, and I play in a metagame where powerful budget decks run rampant. I don't think the Zoo matchup is overly salvageable without going the white splash + 8 removal + Absolute Law variant, so I choose to let my Blasts and Jittes try to handle it.

As I also face Enchantress, Stax, Belcher, NOgenitus, and Hexmage Depths combo, this is my current list.

12 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault

4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Echoing Truth

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovereign

SB:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Hibernation