[Deck] Reanimator

@ nastirth

I have been following the spoilers and have been considering the ramifications of the upcoming cards. Some of what I am going to say is dependent upon tomorrow's bannings as well but at the moment let's just consider the deck as is.

I think that Purify the Grave is a bit narrow due to the casting cost. It is really good for decks running white (obviously), so it will probably see play in Stoneblade, Zoo, and Maverick. Otherwise I think there are better options for grave hate in forms already discussed at length here.

Snapcaster Mage... well I think he will be another card you must take into account when trying to reanimate threats. Can your opponent cast him and still cast a counter or kill spell (notable spells would include Spell Pierce and Mental Misstep in my mind [Daze and Force are not really going to be re-castable from the yard at the speed we hope to go off] and Misstep would just be nuts with this guy). I think this shouldn't be an issue as you know what is in their graveyard and by leaving open enough mana they may broadcast the play. On the other hand, I was thinking this card may warrant testing as he would allow for turn 3 or 4 additional reanimation attempts against control decks that manage to beat you in the counter war. The problem with that is, we would have to find space for him. I am pretty happy with my 75 at the moment so that would be an issue for me.

Evil Twin could be good against us. However, as you pointed out, the cost is prohibitive to many decks (unlike Metamorph). It could see fringe play, but I doubt it will cause us real issues.

Nephilia Drownward not even close to being good enough. Its effect is too slow, it doesn't produce colored mana, and the ability is sub-par unless paired with luck or a lucky Brainstorm. Straight up, it doesn't make the cut.

Balefire Dragon is interesting. I agree that it warrants some playtesting. It is a solid frame (6/6 is out of Dismember range), has evasion, and potentially can cause a one-sided Wrath effect. I think we have a more offensive version of Elesh here. It can kill bigger things but requires you being slightly more "all in" as you lose the ability to block if necessary. In comparison it is a bigger risk, bigger reward situation. Just like many of the other creatures we run right now, we would have to protect him. So that would make Mental Misstep very good, if/when we dig this guy up. However, since it is being looked at for banning that makes this hard to call. I think he could very well deserve a slot in the 75 but play testing will tell.

I have not seen anything that really caught my eye. However we still have a good number of cards to find out about. So maybe we will get something cool here this weekend. Good calls overall for discussion nastirth. Thanks for the food for thought!

@Sturtz

The link I've posted in my previous post is the complete official visual spoiler from WotC. Check it, maybe I missed something juicy :wink:

Lets see what the bannings bring us. I think banning MM would be bad for us. I'd rather prefer seeing SFM and/or Jace banned :laugh:

I went up to 4 Jin-Gitaxias in my build and haven't looked back. Definitely seems worth it. Having extras to pitch to Force of Will/to reanimate (if one is killed) is awesome.

Went 3-1 in a local four round Legacy tournament last Saturday. 2-0'd Burn with Iona on Red both games, 2-0'd U/B Faeries with Jin + Elesh both games, and went 2-0 against Goblins, ultimately winning with Elesh both games.

The match I lost was to my teammate, who was running Ascension (AKA Legacy Soul Sisters. I believe there's a topic for it here on The Source. It's actually pretty potent and a hell of a blast to play!)

First game I got Iona on white and he scooped. Second game, he's got Leyline of the Void and I can't find my Echoing Truth. Third game, he had Leyline of the Void again and I stupidly kept a hand without Echoing Truth, as with last game, thinking I'd draw into it. No luck and he beats me.

So yeah, I hate Leyline of the Void. So much. I definitely need to practice more against it. :P

I've put Brainstorms back in, mainly to dig for Echoing Truth against Leyline. My build now resembles KevinTrudeau's from a few pages back, though I'm running Angel of Despair as a target maindeck.

Good call on the Stifles, Sturtzilla. I ran three in my board and they were just awesome. Stopped Crypts and such like a champ and I even screwed over the Goblin player's mana in one game by Stifling a fetch land.

Also, if Mental Misstep does get banned, what do you guys think Reanimator should replace it with? Spell Pierce? Flusterstorm? Dispel?

@ nastirth

http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...xljgp8l_en.jpg

I took another run through the list. I think this guy looks like he could be fun. Although I think all of our other targets are better as the list currently stands. Yet he is pretty big, tramples, and could allow for some really dumb graveyard based shenanigans (some games you can get additional dudes to the yard, so he might be useful), if he isn't taken out by a StP or PtE. I honestly don't think he makes the cut for this deck, but it did catch my eye.

Actually I think he might warrant some testing in some Reanimator/Rock Hybrid (probably G/B) type deck. Think about using mana dorks to excel into a turn two Buried Alive and then reanimating this guy. Beating with him, then like sacrificing him to something like Cabal Therapy to get the other two dudes back. The consistency could be improved by playing Fauna Shaman too. Hell play Goyf, too. I think he could really generate some dumb combos. What do you guys think about this?


@ Darksteel

I have been liking the 4 Jin version too. I am glad to hear the deck is working out for you pretty well. I am also excited to hear you are liking the Stifle sideboard tech. It really is pretty versatile. If Mental Misstep gets banned, I have been thinking either Spell Pierce or Dispel should take that slot. I am really interested in what others think about this topic.

Although I don't really see Misstep as that big of an issue to the format. It is just another free counter spell to learn to against and around. Sure any deck can play it, but that makes the playing field equal. Others seem to think that too many decks are running it... well with that line of logic what about Brainstorm, Daze, and Force of Will? Are we going to ban those too? I have my fingers crossed for just Standard and/or Modern changes. Although I would love for Earthcraft to be legal in Legacy... I could dust off my casual Squirrelcraft deck... that would be fun.


Edit

Well it looks like we will be needing to start testing Mental Misstep replacements:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...y/feature/161a

I guess I am not surprised, but I am disappointed. This might be a place to start -4 Mental Misstep; +1 Daze (I do hate multiple Daze hands, but free counter spells are free counter spells), +3 Spell Pierce/Dispel. Spell Pierce is a bit more versatile and would make us more resilient to grave hate preboard (and would open up some slots in some boards), while Dispel fills the Misstep gap for removal quite well. I am not sure how this will impact us overall. We won't have to worry about half of our deck being countered due to another free counter. However, we won't be able to use it to combat Swords and Path type effects that nuke Jin. I am interested in feedback from other Reanimators... where do you guys think we should we be heading from here?

Well, Misstep just got the axe. :(

I guess Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm will take its spots in my deck.

It's gonna be lame not being as aggressive/quick with reanimating since we'll need to keep a mana open now. Still, it's nice in a way to not worry about our 1 drops being Misstep'd.

Probably Seize.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darksteel

Well, Misstep just got the axe. :(

I guess Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm will take its spots in my deck.

It's gonna be lame not being as aggressive/quick with reanimating since we'll need to keep a mana open now. Still, it's nice in a way to not worry about our 1 drops being Misstep'd.

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I don't think the deck can just swap out Mental Misstep for Spell Pierce and remain as powerful (as in, keep the disruption/countermagic ratio intact); a huge part of the philosophy of the deck changes now that there is no Mental Misstep metagame to take advantage of. It's a shame that Garobidou's extensive findings will no longer be of use.

Do you think it'll still be viable post banning? Will a CounterTop resurgence push the deck further into a lower tier?

EDIT: I feel that protecting Jin is a key aspect of the deck. Jin gives us a great match-up against a great many decks since he just flat-out locks the game, as we've all experienced. I really think he should stay in some quantity just because of his sheer power. One path the deck could go is slower and more control-like to get out Jin and protect him.

On the other hand, another path is that we could return back to using more Inkwell, more Iona, and other removal-safe (for the most part) targets and still try to go fast.

How about replacing with +1 daze, +3 thoughtseize?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Holden1669

How about replacing with +1 daze, +3 thoughtseize?

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Thats the quickest direct port, but remember you have to be able to beat counterbalance reliably again.

The ability to one for one Swords to Plowshares and/ or Path to Exile for free at any time even when tapped out and to have the added ability to slow down fast aggro decks and their explosive first turn starts (i.e. Wild Nacatl) was just so good and this, in combination with the printing of Jin-Gitaxias breathed new life back into the reanimator archetype mitigating the significant loss of Mystical Tutor.

Now, however, the loss of Mental Misstep will be missed more by this deck than perhaps most decks in the present legacy metagame right now. The loss of mental misstep for reanimator is momentous and even if this deck is still viable and can continue to be a tier 1 legacy deck after October 1, 2011, it will definitely loss some consistency and tempo and much needed protection that gave me for one a lot of peace of mind.

not to mention when Jin draws us 7 at end of turn, it gives us mental missteps too which is most often than not, better than thoughtseize, spell pierce, etc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Thats the quickest direct port, but remember you have to be able to beat counterbalance reliably again.

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Yeah, you're right about this. And thoughtseize slows us down by a turn unless we introduce something like lotus petal (or similar). Misstep will be missed quite a bit, it was the perfect card for this deck. That said, the god hand with this deck (and misstep) was great, but I won quite a few games after some attrition and reanimating something on turn four, five, or later. Bringing in discard maindeck makes us a little more controlling, but I'm not sure that's the death knell for reanimator.

On the positive side, entomb will resolve a lot more often.

If we move from a turn 2-3 reanimation to a turn 3-4 reanimation which fatties become better or worse? Jin has to stay for sure. Does the stock of any of them change?

I am quite bewildered with a lot of people talking about counterbalance making this miraculous comeback and being a tier one deck again in the legacy format. Yes, it is true; counterbalance is a horrible match for reanimator. Always has been, probably always will be. That being said, counterbalance would and does have so many other terrible matchups right now in the present legacy metagame without or without mental misstep.

Counterbalance may see some or little play as oppose to virtually no play as has been the case this year in 2011; however, it is unlikely that counterbalance will see much play on the 5k circuit and I suspect it will not see the top eight of any large scale legacy events in the near future like Grand Prixs or Star City Games Opens.

In my view, the recent lack of main deck play of Inkwell and Empyrial will likely increase once again with Swords and Path becoming more problematic to deal with again.

Counterbalance was a bad matchup for this deck because of its reliance on 1-drops and 2-drops, and on the surface, it would seem that Mental Misstep would have preyed on this deck as well.

But Mental Misstep actually helped this deck much more than it hurt:
1) As mentioned before, Mental Misstep allowed Reanimator to protect its threats from the most commonly played removal while tapped out. Having Misstep instead of Thoughtseize or Spell Pierce essentially sped up Reanimator by a turn.
2) The synergy between Jin-Gitaxias and Mental Misstep meant that we could run 3-4 copies of Jin. Unlike most of our reanimation targets (Inkwell Leviathan, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Blazing Archon, Terastadon, etc.), which were situationally useful against some decks but terrible against others, Jin was very solid against the entire format. Previously, Iona had been the go-to target, but it had become less effective in the new format given that Aether Vial, Karakas, Swords/Path, Dismember/various black removal, Jace/bounce/Metamorph, and GSZ into KotR into Karakas all represented ways around the lock.
3) Moreover, by replacing Thoughtseizes and non-blue fatties with Missteps and Jins, Reanimator could now reliably play enough blue cards to consistently pitch to Force of Will.

mmm...losing MM is a big deal. I think everyone here knows the power of the card. I think that we hava a couple of choices:

Dispel: 1 mana counter for instants and sorcery;s. pretty decent, but if we tap out we still die to a STP or Path.

Spell pierce: Good as well, but if reanimator becomes slower, players will be able to pay for it.

Thoughtseize: Remove it beforehand. But still, players can topdeck it.

I don't know what kind of decks will reamurge after the banning. But i expect Zoo, Goblins, ANT/TNT and merfolk to become stronger.

@MM banning: At first I was angry, because it realy hurts us, but... With snapcaster mage around it would be nuts having also mental mistep around. Control decks are and will be very strong with mage, and with mm they would be even better. So, either way those were bad news for us. :(

Ok, enough whinning. Let's see what we can do about it. I agree that, at first, the obvious replacement will be +1 daze, +3 thoughtseize. However, I'm thinking that another card can take some MM slots: Misdirection. Misdirection is also a "free" spell which handles almost everything targeting jin, even if it costs more than one mana (like diabolic edict). Of course playing with both FoW and Misdirection is tough because of the card disadvantage, but if you can protect Jin that won't be much of an issue. On the other hand Misdirection can't target artifacts like aether vial or relics. Another spell that can be considered is Dispel, which does the job of protecting jin at the cost of one mana. Another one is spell pierce which can counter artifacts, but sometimes it won't stop the targeted removal.

With Misdirection, you'd also need for them to have a creature out to redirect the spell to (If you're targeting StP, etc), right?

IMO, after looking at it, Dispel seems like the best option for targeted removal (as between Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, and itself it's the only hard counter, as Misstep was) which was the majority of what I countered with Misstep, barring the occasional Vial and such. Perhaps going up to 19 or 20 lands and having to slow down a turn could help with running Dispel.

In addition, Dispel can counter other instants like Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, and such, if need be, not to mention Spell Snares and other higher cost instants. I believe it's one of the closest analogues to what Misstep did for our deck.

Spell Pierce is second best, I think.

Granted, all of the options make us a turn slower. We'll just have to see what the metagame morphs into.

Any of you guys have Cockatrice? O:

MM also helped hide our hand, especially against Thoughtseize & Duress

now, we are left exposed to those mechanics... Brainstorm agrument to protect us from Thoughtseize and Duress was already ironed out, proving that Brainstorm doesnt cut it for this purpose

so far ;

misdirection , spell pierce, thoughtseize, dispel , duress

how about cursecatcher, stifle,

or just 4x lightning greaves , lol :D:D:D

So I've been doing a lot of thinking over the last day about this deck and how it will adapt now that Mental Misstep is gone. I know everything is thinking about what cards will take the MM slot but there's a lot we haven't even covered yet, like our reanimation targets I think the standard list looked something like this: 3 Jin, 1 Elesh Norn, 1 Angel of Despair/Terastrodon, 1 Empyrial Archangel, 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind. I know not every list had these creatures, many people had Iona, Inkwell, ect. but you get the picture. I think Inkwell and Iona definitely deserve some consideration now for permanent slots in the main. Iona shuts down a ton of decks, and even naming white prevents our creatures from being StP or PtE'd. I think Inkwell will be huge as well. Having shroud and a huge body will stop him from being removed as well as blocking aggro decks all day long. I'm not sure what we would take out though. I know Empyrial will probably be out of every list, but Jin still wins games single handedly and Elesh destroys the aggro decks that will return. Having Terastrodon would be great against CB decks if they make it big, and I've always liked Angel of Despair personally because of its vindicate effect.

The second thing I've been thinking about is Hapless Researcher vs. Ponder. I know people were kind of split on these before. Some people played up to 3 Hapless and no Ponder and others went the other way around. Does anyone have any input on which way we should go now that MM is banned? I'm leaning towards Ponder since we now have to be more of a control deck and play a little bit slower.

I would like to hear people's input on how to adapt this deck. I don't want to see it die because of the banning.