[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by vercadium

Yes, side-boarding should be natural, adaptive and most importantly based on understanding. You are correct that strict sheets of +/- often under perform and are not the way to go.

I believe you exaggerate "boarding on the fly" however. There is still a correct, optimum sideboard based on defaults for a given match-up that should be used as a baseline and known before entering an event. Yes, there will be changes based on the opposing player and I'm not saying it's "set in stone", as information you receive will change your plan.

Sure, if they board out Terminus, you can use Empty the Warrens. Yes, Xantid Swarm is appealing if they are boarding out 1/2 Flusterstorms for Lightning Bolt. You're right in both of these cases, but realistically, how often are you going to be able to gather such precise information? 15% of the time?

Of course, there will be random scenarios where you know the guy, or you overheard him talking to his friends before the game. But for most other occasions, even if we assume the pilot is some master of the mind who knows 50% of the time exactly what is going out and coming in, it's still worth taking the time to create and discuss an optimum default sideboard strategy for the match-up.

I would argue, that even at 50%, unless you have good & solid information, that side-boarding away from this optimum configuration based on your 'gut' is more likely to get you blown out. If your information is good & solid, then by all means, stray from the path and use that advantage. Otherwise, just like the main-deck, there is a correct default and following this will often yield more consistent results.

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Yes, there is a default boarding plan for each matchup and that one is a) covered in the OP and b) nearly free from individual card choices but conceptional guidelines. Everything that goes beyond the default boarding plans (which start by removing the unneccessary Duress against creature decks or cutting some cantrips in fast matchups or boarding Moxen in slow, grindy matchups) described there is a result of additional information (knowing your opponents 75 during Top8 elimination; because you face the same people over and over at a local event; etc.).

Therefore, the sole answer to the question of how Bryant specificly boarded in his match against Jared should have minimal impact to your own boarding plans in the future, which is all I wanted to highlight

Played TES for the first time since like February. I haven't gotten to try the new lists with Cabal Ritual yet. I hate it. I also forgot it was supposed to have 2 Volcanic, so I had to play a Steam Vents. Lol. Went 3-1 though splitting the finals. Beat Merfolk, Lost to URW Delver, Beat Maverick, then beat URW Delver in the semi's (same guy).

Only really interesting game was my finals match. In game 1 he had a double force, spell pierce hand with a delver on T1 and 1 land. I cast cabal therapy on T2 and he forces pitching TNN. Next turn I cast LED and he spell pierces, I decline to pay, cast ponder. A couple of turns later I cast therapy, he dazes, so I know his hand is force, volcanic, STP, and a mystery card. I cast 2 LEDs, then infernal and crack them, he didnt have another blue card and I emptied. Game 2 he ponders. I keep a no lander, with 2x Probe, 2x Petal, Burning Wish, chrome mox, and LED. I Draw like a ponder. I Probe. He dazes. I probe. see he has no way to interact. Draw rite of flame. Cast Petal petal chrome mox, LED, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish. for Tendrils. GG. Felt good. Not sure how I would change the deck, but I think the 13th land seemed fine. I boarded in Trop every game. Also Since I told the URW delver guy in the swiss that I brought in Xantid Swarm, in the T8 I faked them and noticed he kept in 2 STP so that was cool.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Played TES for the first time since like February. I haven't gotten to try the new lists with Cabal Ritual yet. I hate it. I also forgot it was supposed to have 2 Volcanic, so I had to play a Steam Vents. Lol. Went 3-1 though splitting the finals. Beat Merfolk, Lost to URW Delver, Beat Maverick, then beat URW Delver in the semi's (same guy).

Only really interesting game was my finals match. In game 1 he had a double force, spell pierce hand with a delver on T1 and 1 land. I cast cabal therapy on T2 and he forces pitching TNN. Next turn I cast LED and he spell pierces, I decline to pay, cast ponder. A couple of turns later I cast therapy, he dazes, so I know his hand is force, volcanic, STP, and a mystery card. I cast 2 LEDs, then infernal and crack them, he didnt have another blue card and I emptied. Game 2 he ponders. I keep a no lander, with 2x Probe, 2x Petal, Burning Wish, chrome mox, and LED. I Draw like a ponder. I Probe. He dazes. I probe. see he has no way to interact. Draw rite of flame. Cast Petal petal chrome mox, LED, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish. for Tendrils. GG. Felt good. Not sure how I would change the deck, but I think the 13th land seemed fine. I boarded in Trop every game. Also Since I told the URW delver guy in the swiss that I brought in Xantid Swarm, in the T8 I faked them and noticed he kept in 2 STP so that was cool.

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Fo what it's worth, I'm not playing Cabal Ritual at the moment. My most up to date list is in the opening post.

Played 5 matches yesterday. Beat burn, elves, bant, and jund. Lost to miracles in t8. Did not play stock list. Diminishing returns was needed vs jund. Only t1'd elves. Mulled to 6 a lot.
Props to pizza, diminishing, rite of flame, and chill opponents.
Slops, no play-draw rule, losing and getting zilch

In the miracles matchup, i was at 3 therapy, 2 decay, 2 problast, 2 swarm, 2 silence after board w both thoughtseize and therapy and IT in side. Is this excessive or just what ya gotta do? Game 1 i lost to casting 4x brainstorms and bricking on a protection spell to race his top-cb/force draw. G2 i jammed goblins since he had a clique hand and ended up e-tutoring(didnt know about) for the GG. Things seemed to come together pretty well for my opp that match.

Overall, feel very prepared for tales tournament. Any advice on the miracles games and sideboarding would be helpful.

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Originally Posted by mario91234

Played 5 matches yesterday. Beat burn, elves, bant, and jund. Lost to miracles in t8. Did not play stock list. Diminishing returns was needed vs jund. Only t1'd elves. Mulled to 6 a lot.
Props to pizza, diminishing, rite of flame, and chill opponents.
Slops, no play-draw rule, losing and getting zilch

In the miracles matchup, i was at 3 therapy, 2 decay, 2 problast, 2 swarm, 2 silence after board w both thoughtseize and therapy and IT in side. Is this excessive or just what ya gotta do? Game 1 i lost to casting 4x brainstorms and bricking on a protection spell to race his top-cb/force draw. G2 i jammed goblins since he had a clique hand and ended up e-tutoring(didnt know about) for the GG. Things seemed to come together pretty well for my opp that match.

Overall, feel very prepared for tales tournament. Any advice on the miracles games and sideboarding would be helpful.

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Cut Silences, adjust manabase and don't run 11 protection spells to complain later that you are bricking. SB advice for Miracles is in the OP (if your list is totally different, further SB advice is impossible to give without knowing your list)

Okay, I now see the differences between your current list and what I played last night. I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the third chrome mox, but I honestly can't think of what else I would want it to be. So glad this deck is on 4 Therapy now as well, since that card was the absolute nut. Are Pithing Needles for like the tempo match up to name wasteland or miracles for top?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Okay, I now see the differences between your current list and what I played last night. I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the third chrome mox, but I honestly can't think of what else I would want it to be. So glad this deck is on 4 Therapy now as well, since that card was the absolute nut. Are Pithing Needles for like the tempo match up to name wasteland or miracles for top?

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I doubt you can find space in your MB to add the needles for Wasteland only (without removing overall better cards). Other than that I primary added Needles as splash hate against SDT and Griselbrand/SneakAttack but it has more use like against:

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

DRS
Symbiote/Quiron
Cephalid Coliseum
Candelabra
Eye of Ugin
Aether Vial
Engineered Explosives
Equipment cards
Planeswalker cards
Charbelcher/Undercity Informer
Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage
Seige-Gang Commander
Cursecatcher
Forgemaster
Rishadan Port
Goblin Welder
Grindstone
Scavenging Ooze
Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb
Queasy Pridemage
Knight of the Reliquary
Man-land Cards
Grim Lavamancer
Vampire Hexmage
Sterling Grove
Academy Ruins

That's some relevant and less-than-relevant targets to keep you interested

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Okay, I now see the differences between your current list and what I played last night. I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the third chrome mox, but I honestly can't think of what else I would want it to be. So glad this deck is on 4 Therapy now as well, since that card was the absolute nut. Are Pithing Needles for like the tempo match up to name wasteland or miracles for top?

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I've wanted the Mox back, I really noticed weaker Ad Nauseams with Cabal Rituals.

I definitely wouldn't want it main board. I do like it as an option though. The only slot I'm not a fan of is the third chrome mox anyway. I'm Just not sure what else to actually play outside of maybe like a random spirit guide, but that seems pretty bad.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I've wanted the Mox back, I really noticed weaker Ad Nauseams with Cabal Rituals.

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I'll admit that there was a time last night that because of Cabal not being a mox, I wasn't able to go of after an ad nauseam. Dunno. Third mox may be alright, I just keep remembering all of the times that I draw a double Mox opener or something

Yeah, I really like the 3rd Chrome Mox and I think the deck is better with it, but it is incredibly frustrating when multiples are drawn naturally. Brainstorm alleviates this significantly though. I don't think there's a perfect solution to that flaw at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Cut Silences, adjust manabase and don't run 11 protection spells to complain later that you are bricking. SB advice for Miracles is in the OP (if your list is totally different, further SB advice is impossible to give without knowing your list)

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I wasn't bricking. My opp's hands were top/brainstorm/force/cb/plow/entreat/fetch and he drew tundra for turn g1.
G2, i look at pierce/brainstorm/force/clique/lands.

How many interaction spells are optimal to play post board? My deck post side was 13 lands, rits, 1 mox, 10 cantrips, 7 tutors, and the 11 interaction.

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Originally Posted by mario91234

I wasn't bricking. My opp's hands were top/brainstorm/force/cb/plow/entreat/fetch and he drew tundra for turn g1.
G2, i look at pierce/brainstorm/force/clique/lands.

How many interaction spells are optimal to play post board? My deck post side was 13 lands, rits, 1 mox, 10 cantrips, 7 tutors, and the 11 interaction.

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When I have to ask how you plan on beating SDT + CB or Clique with Silence or Xantid? Both are crap if your opponent responds with Clique, even worse if they block your swarm. Both also do nothing against the SDT actions.

Does this mean that you shove 2 Moxen, 1 Therapy, 2 Ponder + 1 EtW into your SB in exchange for the Xantids, Decays and Pyroblasts? Asuming you ran 3 Silences (like the latest list we had with 3 Silences, 4 Therapies), I would have cutted those, the EtW and the 3rd Mox for 2 Decays, 2 Blasts, 1 ToA

I still don't get what you want to express with "Game 1 i lost to casting 4x brainstorms and bricking on a protection spell".

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I still don't get what you want to express with "Game 1l i lost to casting 4x brainstorms and bricking on a protection spel".

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Lem, your comment was that if you play 11 interaction, you shouldn't be surprised to brick.
He only played 11 interaction game 2, not game 1. That would be cheating. :cool:

What I would want to play postboard:
4 Brainstorm, 4 Probe, 3 Ponder (11)
4 LED, 4 Petal, 4 Rite, 4 Ritual, 2 Mox (18)
13 Land (13)
7 Tutor, 1 Ad Nauseam (8)
That leaves room for 10x interaction tops.

2x Decay, 2x Peedle, 6x Discard seems best.

Am I wrong here?

2 silence, 2 pyro, 2 xantid, 3 therapy, 2 decay post board. Am i understanding correctly that xantid and silence are bad vs miracles? In the first game i needed any protection spell on my brainstorms to win.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Lem, your comment was that if you play 11 interaction, you shouldn't be surprised to brick.
He only played 11 interaction game 2, not game 1. That would be cheating. :cool:

What I would want to play postboard:
4 Brainstorm, 4 Probe, 3 Ponder (11)
4 LED, 4 Petal, 4 Rite, 4 Ritual, 2 Mox (18)
13 Land (13)
7 Tutor, 1 Ad Nauseam (8)
That leaves room for 10x interaction tops.

2x Decay, 2x Peedle, 6x Discard seems best.

Am I wrong here?

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Yeah, my bad. I still a) consider 11 protections spells postboard overkill and b) do not understand the sentence I bolded.


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Originally Posted by mario91234

2 silence, 2 pyro, 2 xantid, 3 therapy, 2 decay post board. Am i understanding correctly that xantid and silence are bad vs miracles? In the first game i needed any protection spell on my brainstorms to win.

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They are. If I understand you correctly, you fired 4 Brainstorms and still did not find a protection spell, despire all options to shuffle, to Ponder or to wish for TS?

I kept: petal, led, rit, mine, brainstorm, probe, IT. I saw more led, another 2 brainstorms and an additional IT plus lands before dieing to cb lock. I infernal'd for the 4th.

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Originally Posted by mario91234

I kept: petal, led, rit, mine, brainstorm, probe, IT. I saw more led, another 2 brainstorms and an additional IT plus lands before dieing to cb lock. I infernal'd for the 4th.

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Ah, you did not draw into protection and used the term "bricking" for that. The correct sequence T1 here would have been to put back Brainstorm and LED on top, draw LED turn 2 and Infernal for LED #2 via Petal. This way you would have seen more fresh cards while having 2 LEDs & 1 Infernal & 1 Brainstorm in hand with a land in play. In the end it might not have changed much ... dunno

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Originally Posted by mario91234

2 silence, 2 pyro, 2 xantid, 3 therapy, 2 decay post board. Am i understanding correctly that xantid and silence are bad vs miracles? In the first game i needed any protection spell on my brainstorms to win.

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I'm not the expert on this matchup, but let's look at what will kill us:
- CounterTop lock
- Permission spells (4x FoW, 2-4 Spell Pierce, 0-2 Counterspell, 0-2 Flusterstorm and 0-2x Envelop post board)
- Hate bears (usually Meddling Mage, though some play Canonist, which I would prefer in my Miracles list)

They usually keep in Terminus, in case we dump the Warrens on the board on turn one.
They usually cut 4x StP, 1x Karakas, 1x Entreat for 3x Meddling Mage and 3x extra Permission spell.
At least, that's what I would probably do.

We need stuff that is useful against all that. Swarm only works against permission spells, and it dies to Terminus. Silence also only works against permission spells. Decay kills Meddling Mage and Counterbalance. Pithing Needle stops Top, which also prevents them from floating a permission spell on top of their deck, outside the reach of our discard. Our discard can hit any of the important spells.

So yeah, Swarm and Silence are meh in this matchup. If you would post your entire list with 60 + 15, I could suggest a boarding plan for you.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

I'm not the expert on this matchup, but let's look at what will kill us:
- CounterTop lock
- Permission spells (4x FoW, 2-4 Spell Pierce, 0-2 Counterspell, 0-2 Flusterstorm and 0-2x Envelop post board)
- Hate bears (usually Meddling Mage, though some play Canonist, which I would prefer in my Miracles list)

They usually keep in Terminus, in case we dump the Warrens on the board on turn one.
They usually cut 4x StP, 1x Karakas, 1x Entreat for 3x Meddling Mage and 3x extra Permission spell.
At least, that's what I would probably do.

We need stuff that is useful against all that. Swarm only works against permission spells, and it dies to Terminus and Clique. Silence also only works against permission spells but is pointless if your opponent has Clique in his hand. Decay kills Meddling Mage and Counterbalance. Pithing Needle stops Top, which also prevents them from floating a permission spell on top of their deck, outside the reach of our discard. Our discard can hit any of the important spells.

So yeah, Swarm and Silence are meh in this matchup. If you would post your entire list with 60 + 15, I could suggest a boarding plan for you.

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This is correct. Thanks for hinting at Meddling Mages which are also common cards Xantid and Silence cannot adress

Hi everyone, had an interesting opener that I wanted some thoughts on. I was on the play, against an unknown opponent:

http://puu.sh/az7fN/5641e7e88e.jpg

Would you keep this hand? Any ritual lets you go off turn 2 (unprotected), Brainstorm can open up some shenanigans with Ad Nauseam, LED, and a cantrip, but on the surface this hand does a whole lot of nothing, especially turn 1. Given that Chrome Mox can't even accel you into anything turn and it restricts my use of Duress, this seems like a mull in hindsight. I'm wondering what you all think of it, though (FWIW, the opponent turned out to be on lands and so I won anyway because it was game 1 *shrug*).

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

Hi everyone, had an interesting opener that I wanted some thoughts on. I was on the play, against an unknown opponent:

http://puu.sh/az7fN/5641e7e88e.jpg

Would you keep this hand? Any ritual lets you go off turn 2 (unprotected), Brainstorm can open up some shenanigans with Ad Nauseam, LED, and a cantrip, but on the surface this hand does a whole lot of nothing, especially turn 1. Given that Chrome Mox can't even accel you into anything turn and it restricts my use of Duress, this seems like a mull in hindsight. I'm wondering what you all think of it, though (FWIW, the opponent turned out to be on lands and so I won anyway because it was game 1 *shrug*).

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Well, it's a virtual mulligan to 5 but you have 3 IMS, protection and Ad Nauseam itself with LED being able to pay for Spell Pierce. Near guaranteed turn 3 combo. Clear keeper.

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Originally Posted by wonderPreaux

Hi everyone, had an interesting opener that I wanted some thoughts on. I was on the play, against an unknown opponent:

http://puu.sh/az7fN/5641e7e88e.jpg

Would you keep this hand? Any ritual lets you go off turn 2 (unprotected), Brainstorm can open up some shenanigans with Ad Nauseam, LED, and a cantrip, but on the surface this hand does a whole lot of nothing, especially turn 1. Given that Chrome Mox can't even accel you into anything turn and it restricts my use of Duress, this seems like a mull in hindsight. I'm wondering what you all think of it, though (FWIW, the opponent turned out to be on lands and so I won anyway because it was game 1 *shrug*).

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What cards make this hand work? Analysis of our first draw:

Good:
Brainstorm probably fixes it. Small chance that would brick. (4)
Ritual makes you go off T2. (4)
Tutor or Wish means an Empty for 10 guys T2. (7) (/15)

Meh:
Empty itself gives 8 dudes T2. (~1)
Ponder is a bit of a gamble but should be good to set up a turn 3. (~4)
Cabal Therapy could be okay, buy lots of time. (~4) (/~9)

Bad:
LED and Petal won't work yet, but may work after the second draw. (-6)
Rite doens't seem to add anything here either. (-4)
Mox would suck big time (-2)
Lands are useless now. (-11)
Duress would probably not be good, unless against Miracles. (-2) (/-25)

Doesn't count:
Probe (4)

So in a deck of 49 cards (so minus the Probes), we have:
Good: 15 (31%)
Meh: 9 (18%)
Bad: 25 (51%)

Seems we should mull this? Funny that Lem calls it a clear keeper.

Good feedback. Much appreciated.

I think I'd keep it,though it would definitely feel like a loose keep

I'd snap keep that. Do you honestly expect a better mulligan? You don't have to combo off on the next turn either. A turn three is fine with this grip.

True. If on the draw, a thoughtseize can fuck up yourday, but on the play it seems fine

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

True. If on the draw, a thoughtseize can fuck up yourday, but on the play it seems fine

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Sure. Because all of the best decks in legacy play four Thoughtseize.

<sarcasm>I think a resolved Counterbalance or Nullrod might also beat this hand, might as well mulligan. They hid those cards in response to your Duress.</sarcasm>

EDIT: Apparently I need to start wrapping things in sarcasm tags.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Sure. Because all of the best decks in legacy play four Thoughtseize.

I think a resolved Counterbalance or Nullrod might also beat this hand, might as well mulligan. They hid those cards in response to your Duress.

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Nullrod wouldn't really be an issue since it's game 1. I'd prolly fold to a Thalia/Eidolon though.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

What cards make this hand work? Analysis of our first draw:

Good:
Brainstorm probably fixes it. Small chance that would brick. (4)
Ritual makes you go off T2. (4)
Tutor or Wish means an Empty for 10 guys T2. (7) (/15)

Meh:
Empty itself gives 8 dudes T2. (~1)
Ponder is a bit of a gamble but should be good to set up a turn 3. (~4)
Cabal Therapy could be okay, buy lots of time. (~4) (/~9)

Bad:
LED and Petal won't work yet, but may work after the second draw. (-6)
Rite doens't seem to add anything here either. (-4)
Mox would suck big time (-2)
Lands are useless now. (-11)
Duress would probably not be good, unless against Miracles. (-2) (/-25)

Doesn't count:
Probe (4)

So in a deck of 49 cards (so minus the Probes), we have:
Good: 15 (31%)
Meh: 9 (18%)
Bad: 25 (51%)

Seems we should mull this? Funny that Lem calls it a clear keeper.

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I fear you miss the bigger picture here:

1) How good do you expect your mulligan to be?
2) Why shouldn't a turn 3 combo be fine too?

Especially with an eye on the turn 3 combo, your whole analysis is wrong as RoF, Lands, Petals and Ponder are suddenly all valid draws while more discard buys you plenty of time in most cases. The only "dead" draws for this hand are 2 moxen and 3 LEDs, so your chance of being able to combo in turn 3 (opponents interaction aside) is >80%

Hi All,

So i'm pretty new to legacy but grabbed this deck and have been doing reasonably well in my brief experience with it. I'm curious though if any of you have ever tried running xantid's in the main? I'm currently trying 2 and have been pretty pleased. There are obviously matchups where they are amazing, and some where they are horrendous like elves and goblins, but i've actually found them to be reasonably good against most delver variants despite the OP's claim that they shouldn't be used in those matchups. Now I realize that i have a mere fraction of his experience and so i'm asking to see if anyone else has tried this? They can chump in a pinch, sacrifice to therapy, and frankly i'm usually pretty ok with them eating a bolt as that's another turn to find action usually. and if they don't have the bolt, i attack them next turn and go off with impunity. I guess it's like having silence that can sac to flashback therapy too.

My first tournament with the deck was starcity dallas earlier this year where i got off to a 5-1 start but stumbled to a 5-4 finish. I had 4 duress, 1 thoughtseize 1 therapy at the time due to limited cards and found several occasions where my duress would reveal multiple relevant counters and i would only be able to take one of them.

My second tournament i tried playing with 4 therapy and 2 swarm to a 3rd/4th place finish in a 70 person side event at GP minneapolis and was pretty pleased with the swarms; where therapy couldn't take care of relevant interaction, swarm could usually clean up the rest...

So starcity is returning to dallas this weekend and i'm on 4 therapy, 2 swarm and 1 duress (finally saw reason and cut the 4th chrome mox for a duress) unless someone can talk me out of it. what are your thoughts?

Took down a local last night dropping two games with an overall record of 5-0-1. Game three of the finals versus Death & Taxes I resolved an Ad Nauseam from 8 life on his end step by tapping five lands (six total in play), untapping and winning. The better Ad Nauseams have been really nice. I did lose game two to a situation to where if I had Massacre in my sideboard I could've won, but I'd rather have more diverse cards for other match-ups as well. The situation was that he had Mother + Cannonist, I actually had Decay + Chain in my hand and was planning on winning on my turn when he played Thalia. Can't win them all! I still wouldn't change anything.

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Originally Posted by Tengo_Hambre

Hi All,

So i'm pretty new to legacy but grabbed this deck and have been doing reasonably well in my brief experience with it. I'm curious though if any of you have ever tried running xantid's in the main? I'm currently trying 2 and have been pretty pleased. There are obviously matchups where they are amazing, and some where they are horrendous like elves and goblins, but i've actually found them to be reasonably good against most delver variants despite the OP's claim that they shouldn't be used in those matchups. Now I realize that i have a mere fraction of his experience and so i'm asking to see if anyone else has tried this? They can chump in a pinch, sacrifice to therapy, and frankly i'm usually pretty ok with them eating a bolt as that's another turn to find action usually. and if they don't have the bolt, i attack them next turn and go off with impunity. I guess it's like having silence that can sac to flashback therapy too.

My first tournament with the deck was starcity dallas earlier this year where i got off to a 5-1 start but stumbled to a 5-4 finish. I had 4 duress, 1 thoughtseize 1 therapy at the time due to limited cards and found several occasions where my duress would reveal multiple relevant counters and i would only be able to take one of them.

My second tournament i tried playing with 4 therapy and 2 swarm to a 3rd/4th place finish in a 70 person side event at GP minneapolis and was pretty pleased with the swarms; where therapy couldn't take care of relevant interaction, swarm could usually clean up the rest...

So starcity is returning to dallas this weekend and i'm on 4 therapy, 2 swarm and 1 duress (finally saw reason and cut the 4th chrome mox for a duress) unless someone can talk me out of it. what are your thoughts?

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The main problem with Xantid Swarm maindeck is that 4 Swords to Plowshares, that were otherwise useless, suddenly become relevant. Eating a Bolt or Abrupt Decay is usually fine.

Xantid Swarm is especially nice in the sideboard because people usually board out spot removal against T.E.S, making it wonderful protection postboard. It's also pretty useful against decks that tend to play few to no removal (aka Show and Tell, Merfolks, Elves).

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Originally Posted by Tengo_Hambre

Hi All,

So i'm pretty new to legacy but grabbed this deck and have been doing reasonably well in my brief experience with it. I'm curious though if any of you have ever tried running xantid's in the main? I'm currently trying 2 and have been pretty pleased. There are obviously matchups where they are amazing, and some where they are horrendous like elves and goblins, but i've actually found them to be reasonably good against most delver variants despite the OP's claim that they shouldn't be used in those matchups. Now I realize that i have a mere fraction of his experience and so i'm asking to see if anyone else has tried this? They can chump in a pinch, sacrifice to therapy, and frankly i'm usually pretty ok with them eating a bolt as that's another turn to find action usually. and if they don't have the bolt, i attack them next turn and go off with impunity. I guess it's like having silence that can sac to flashback therapy too.

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So you really want to fetch your Tropical Island against Delver as your first land to drop Xantid Swarms, turning on their remocal, just to realize that you need black and red mana aka two more initial mana sources to win? Fine plan, because mana supply was NEVER an issue against Tempo decks, right? /sarcasm

It's a Silence that needs to attack (reads: you have to pass the turn) AND is vulnerable to everything from Plowshares to Bolts. Xantids have their place in fighting decks what have massive non-creature counters, no removal at all and/or are slower control matchups. Delver is the complete opposite and the plan is flawed not only because of the Xantid Swarm itself and opponents possible ways to interact with it, but because you mess with your own manabase in a matchup which is all about the mana.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Took down a local last night dropping two games with an overall record of 5-0-1. Game three of the finals versus Death & Taxes I resolved an Ad Nauseam from 8 life on his end step by tapping five lands (six total in play), untapping and winning. The better Ad Nauseams have been really nice. I did lose game two to a situation to where if I had Massacre in my sideboard I could've won, but I'd rather have more diverse cards for other match-ups as well. The situation was that he had Mother + Cannonist, I actually had Decay + Chain in my hand and was planning on winning on my turn when he played Thalia. Can't win them all! I still wouldn't change anything.

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Congrats on doing well with the deck. I was the elves player you beat in the side event before you won the the real side event for the MMA set. Like the changes to the list and I just have to get back to correctly SB'ing after taking 8 months off from it :tongue:

Has anybody tried out defense grid instead of xantid swarm recently, if so what are your opinions?

I've been struggling against counter-top, I recently moved to the 2 pithing needle, 2 abrupt decay sideboard for them but I am wanting a little more. Maybe I'm attacking the matchup from the wrong angle.

I thought defense grid may work better than xantid swarm as you can bring it in against control decks that may leave in some creature removal. It is a turn slower than xantid swarm but I'm usually not going off turn 2 against control decks and you don't have to worry about attacking or keeping a 0/1 alive.

From what I was able to find, defense grid was used in an early version of the deck but has long since been dropped.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JUNI0R

Has anybody tried out defense grid instead of xantid swarm recently, if so what are your opinions?

I've been struggling against counter-top, I recently moved to the 2 pithing needle, 2 abrupt decay sideboard for them but I am wanting a little more. Maybe I'm attacking the matchup from the wrong angle.

I thought defense grid may work better than xantid swarm as you can bring it in against control decks that may leave in some creature removal. It is a turn slower than xantid swarm but I'm usually not going off turn 2 against control decks and you don't have to worry about attacking or keeping a 0/1 alive.

From what I was able to find, defense grid was used in an early version of the deck but has long since been dropped.

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Defense Grid costing 2 means that even on the play it can get Spell Pierced, also bring in 6 disruption cards seems like it'd be a big dilution of the deck. there are games where you actually race the Counterbalance or Clique and you can't do that if your hand is all hate cards. Further, Defense Grid is more for Griselbrand decks because they tap out for SnT/Exhume and thus can't use all their FoW/Dazes, Miracles can just slow roll open mana and ignore Defense Grid more and more as the game goes on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JUNI0R

Has anybody tried out defense grid instead of xantid swarm recently, if so what are your opinions?

I've been struggling against counter-top, I recently moved to the 2 pithing needle, 2 abrupt decay sideboard for them but I am wanting a little more. Maybe I'm attacking the matchup from the wrong angle.

I thought defense grid may work better than xantid swarm as you can bring it in against control decks that may leave in some creature removal. It is a turn slower than xantid swarm but I'm usually not going off turn 2 against control decks and you don't have to worry about attacking or keeping a 0/1 alive.

From what I was able to find, defense grid was used in an early version of the deck but has long since been dropped.

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Grid still doesn't prevent miracles being able to counter one if not more spells during your turn. Pretty ineffective hate if you still need to dig for discard before going off.

6-3 at tales of adventure.

Report of losses
R1- Sneak+show
g1 he mulls to 6, t1 grissle. I win if he doesnt have force.
g2 he keeps garbage handle and i win on 5 cards w/ xantid
g3 i likely punted. opp's hand is 5 mystery cards and 4 lands in play. (3 untapped) There's about 5 cantrips he has cast this game.
He is at 16.
My board is 2 gold lands, fetch. Hand is 2x Dark rit, LED, Wish, Infernal, Pyroblast. Yard is brainstorm and xantid. Top card is ponder. My sequencing: Fetch, Dark rit, Infernal (get dark rit), dark rit, wish (get tendrils), rit->spell pierce. I pyroblast. He swan songs. I lose 2 turns later to combo. After discussing it, the proper sequence was likely rit->infernal (rit)->rit->rit (5 floating)-> Led->wish(access to 5 mana currently w/o led). If thats's his hand, he wins if he casts pierce then swan, any other outcome is gg.

r6-RUG
g1-i jam a t3 bloodmoon through infernal+led shenanigans. He looks at his stifle and scoops them up a couple turns later.
g2-I draw too many chrome mox and cantrip into oblivion. Goyf's eat me
g3-I make 6 gobs on t1. Opp is at 7 with a goyf and I have 4 gobs now. I decline to lava spike (this was wrong in hindsight). Fast forward 5 turns later, I have 3 wishes gone and my hand is IT/LED/Ad naus with 4 mana in play. My opponenet is at 3 after 2x forces(pitching stifles) and fetches and another goblin attack. Board is flipped delver+goyf vs 3 gobs and he has cast multiple cantrips (3 cards in hand). I go and get grapeshot and it meets the 3rd stifle. I'm out of win cons and can only put him to 1.

r8-Miracles
g1-pierce, jace, brainstorm, force and 3 lands on the play is his 7. He draws top on his first drawstep. I get close to winning.
g2-I win on t2 after he forces my silence and I decide to ad naus with 0 floating.
g3-I was never in this game. Blind name counterbalance shows me a clique, force, and brainstorm and a gone CB. He aggressively brainstorms and locks himself. the 2nd brainstorm pulls him into double UU. He gets a 2nd CB and proceeds to blind flip countering my next 4 spells. I get clique locked.

My wins were RUG, BUG, Blue elves, RB entomb/painter, oops all spells, and another blue deck.

List for shame:

4 Gemstone Mine
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Silence
1 Thoughtseize
1 Blood Moon
2 Mana Confluence
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
SB: 2 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Blood Moon

Careto elaborate on the blood moon?