This might be a dumb question, but this list doesn't run delvers? Is there a reason why they're not in your list? I'm still new to this deck so any insight would be great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus
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This might be a dumb question, but this list doesn't run delvers? Is there a reason why they're not in your list? I'm still new to this deck so any insight would be great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus
Yeah... I'm not going to be cutting delver any time soon.
there is no insight...its a bad move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph
1 vendillion clique for UU1 or a U for 3/1
you don't even need clique for this deck with the amount of counters it has
Yeah, I just thought that delver would be so much more efficient than clique, and with the amount of permission and disruption clique isn't really needed at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
The list that I'm starting with right now is:
Lands:
4x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
3x Polluted Delta
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
Creatures:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Tombstalker
Spells:
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Thoughtseize
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
3x Abrupt Decay
I'm still trying to work out my SB, and I'm questioning the spells that I have. I'm trying to add more removal into the main (like dismember or disfigure as mentioned in this deck) because the only removal I have right now are abrupt decays. If you were to cut something for removal, what would be the first to cut?
I'm still working on sideboard myself, but I can advise you a bit on mainboard: Bayou > Tropical, trust me, just switch the numbers. 3 Decays as only removal seems poor, I'd cut 1 FoW for 4th Decay (since you already run a lot of discard). Ironically, FoWs seem to be one of the most common card to be taken out after sideboarding. And if you want to free up aditional space for another removal slot, I'd go either for 1 Hymn or 1 Seize.
+1 Bayou, especially if you're using Hymn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastikor
Either cut FoW, or take out the seizes completely for a 4th decay and 2 disfigure. Personally, I'm in a much more combo meta, so I stick with 4 FoWs in the main.
My list, for reference:
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
SB: 4 Sinkhole
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
Thanks! I think I'm going to go with the -1 Fow, -1 thoughtseize for +2 disfigure. As well as the swap for bayou instead of trop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Would the 4th Fow be put in the board?
Also, for those that are playing with stifle... how have those been? It's pretty hard to cut for stifles, but I just see a lot of targetted discard being cut.
I hate seeing tropical island in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeph
Go 1 trop and 2 bayous.
Delver is more efficient, but this deck isn't short on efficient beaters. Delver flips are inconsistent enough that it's the worst threat between itself goyf and stalker. I usually find that I can put down a threat and force the opponent to play into my disruption to beat it, but Delver rarely gets there by itself unlike the other two. I was actually playing only DRS goyf and stalker for a while and it was fine, but Clique solves a few of the problems I was running into (mostly planewalkers and decks with heavy removal), functions as removal in a pinch, and compliments the discard nicely. The only bad point to Clique is that passing with 3 mana is almost playing with your hand face up, or it would have been a few months ago but leaving abrupt decay mana open makes it much less obvious.
To say that "it's bad" is one thing and that's a defensible argument that we can bring to the table and rationalize. To say that "there's no insight" is to completely write off anything that might actually be going on and to learn nothing from it. Delver is not a sacred cow in this deck.
But it is arguably faster than clique. And faster, and inarguably cheaper. And you can only have one clique on the table, whereas two-to-three delvers flipped will end a game quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus
My issue with clique (without delver) is that slows our game down, something we can can't afford imo, especially since we lack burn spells. I want to be sealing a game up around the time clique can honestly be cast (turns 4-6).
Let's also not forget about our blue count for FoW; those four delvers make for good fodder, too
Considering this deck curves out at either 2 mana or Tombstalker and Deathrite Shaman has some minor disynergy with the latter, what do you guys get out of playing with Deathrite Shaman? Is the hate vs reanimator strategies, reach vs aggro-control and control strategies and soft mana denial vs other Deathrite Shaman decks just so good that you don't really need to drop anything 3cc + in order to make the ramp worth while?
DRS is so sick. You wouldn't believe how much damage he actually delivers throughout the game. But yeah, he is mostly there for the super-explosive starts (ala t1 Shaman, t2 Hymn + Delver, Hymn + Tseize etc...), which are imo the best thing in this deck. You can actually seal the game in those few turns, because you get so much ahead. Of course you can run 3 cmc spell like Clique, no one objects :wink: but then, you could just have dropped a 1 cmc and a 2 cmc threat and it'd be just as good (or better) instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
The dissinergy between DRS and TStalker/Goyf is only a minor issue.
The mana acceleration of deathrite is very strong since it synergises well with a low curve, daze & wasteland to get significantly ahead early. The acceleration alone is of course not enough since Team America could always play birds of paradise. His body and him delivering 2 to dome on a stalled board as well as the included gy hate make him the "nuts" that he is. Deathrite is what gave Team America his own identity compared to RUG tempo. If you compare a while back many people including myself marked Team America as the 2nd best tempo (Stifle) deck. Today with deathrite and to a lesser extend decay Team America is not positioned "behind" RUG but next to it with it's own strenghts and weaknesses.
Deathrite Shaman stabilizes the mana base against wasteland, makes our own dazes stronger by holding mana tempo, makes your brainstorm better by shuffling away lands more often, stabilizes the board with a blocker, aids the mana denial plan if the opponent is also relying on DRS for mana (we can respond favorably in almost any case since Team America has the lowest curve of any DRS deck), and helps on both sides of the race after you've created a tempo advantage in the first 3-4 turns of the game with your other under-costed disruption and threats. Since it pings every turn with "evasion", there's really no opportunity cost to playing it other than deck space. The only thing it really doesn't do is answer troublesome permanents, which can be covered by Abrupt Decay, discard, and counters.
Deathrite Shaman fills every role that this deck is looking for, since it's a strong tempo card, a decent disruption card, and there's no efficient method to deal with it.
Anyone tried Thrun in sideboard vs longshot (midrange/control) matchups? Seems like Jund and Esper are cutting the numbers of Wastelands lately, so he may actually be castable on turn 3/4.
Too expensive still. Even then, not worth the slot if you're on the sinkhole planQuote:
Originally Posted by Mastikor
Sure, I meant in a Sinkhole-less plan. I'm still not entirely convinced about Sinkholes (very narrow/situational card and require so many slots).Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
It's neither narrow nor situational. Rather, it compliments the mana denial strategy perfectly and can blow out jund or control completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastikor
Even so, we want sb cards that are narrower or more situational, but are powerful for that reason.
Thrun doesn't bring anything else to the table other than being an okayish beater. The situations in which he shines, other cards like e plague or obstinate baloth are just better
Which mana denial strategy? 4 Wasteland? :tongue: I guess what you want to say it complements the "getting ahead and keeping the opponent in the early game"-Strategy, which is true. But I still agree with Mastikore: Sinkholes are situational and a questionable sideboard choice. Against the decks you want them most (Jund, Miracles, Stoneblade) there will be situations where they are good, but there will also be situations where they are almost a dead draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Some examples for this situations where sinkhole is less powerful: If miracles finds enough lands with SD.top, jund is on the play and starts with deathrite followed up by reasonable curve, jund resolves a loam, Esper survives to the lategame,... In general they are bad if you are behind on the board or the opponent is flooded.
Please no arguments like "but if you keep miracles busy finding lands with sd.top you get enough time to win". That is just plain denial of the weaknesses of the sinkhole plan.
Don't get me wrong: I am respecting Sinkholes strength's as well, but since they take 4 (or 5 slots because you probably also want a loam), I am also thinking about other options and Thrun is what has the most potential to me.
He is probably a bit worse than Baloth against Jund, but Thrun is nuts against esper & miracles where baloth is embarassing - so baloth: No. 4cmc does not matter versus the UW decks, but can become difficult versus Jund since they hymn and wasteland (not tested enough).
Having Thrun as a 2 of and the other 2-3 slots freed up for other high impact cards versus control and midrange seems a reasonable thought to me that should be tested. Calling Thrun an "okayish" beater is a significant understimation of uncounterability, hexproof & renegeration on a 4/4 body. Especially against UW where not having mongoose or all the threats being vulnerable to Rest in Peace hurts a lot.
Yup, that was basically my logic too. Although I'm not sure if I'd side him in vs Miracles due to Terminus. I guess I'll have to test him out on friday last-minute trials grinders :wink:
I'm probably gonna run the Confidant version I posted on last page, only -1 FoW +1 Ponder. I'm thinking about this sideboard:
3 Surgical
1 Tseize
1 FoW
2 Disfigure (Darkblast - anyone tested?)
2 Pulse
2 Plague
2 Clique
2 Thrun
Thoughts?