I wouldn't recommend Spell Snaring a Daze though:smile:
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I wouldn't recommend Spell Snaring a Daze though:smile:
You mean GSZ for 1 (cmc=2)Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Don't forget aside from Thalia, Goyf, Stoneforge, Bob (creatures), spell pierce counters all you've mentioned too.
Spell Snare is great at what it does don't get me wrong, however, it's functionality is overshadowed by Spell Pierce.
I'm running no Snares,
It may sound crazy,
But main deck Pierces,
And I am happy.
Too bad Goyf, SFM and Thalia tend to hump this deck pretty good. And have fun with those Pierces in the lategame. And yes, the deck tends to go to the late(r) game much more often recently, UW(x) - Terminator/Miracle Whip/whatthecrap beeing the main reason for that.
GSZ where X=2 is CMC 3 :)
I would think that this deck wouldn't care about Hierarchs...
Yes, I read that part. And yet, it's still relevant, so it's hard to ignore that when you make a comparison. But if you reread what I wrote, you'll notice my first, and more important, point, is that Mental Misstep is (was) free to cast. And it countered more than just cantrips. (Against Reanimator, though, I would still almost always save my Missteps for Entomb, Careful Study, or Reanimate.) Disrupt is not free, and does not counter much outside of other cantrips. For me, that's not enough value, even with the extra card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Anyway, run Disrupts if they're serving you well. We don't all have to agree on every card, and having pet cards is also perfectly fine. Just don't be offended when people tell you why they don't think it's great.
I don't personally care for one or the other, as I don't play RUG right now. However, Disrupt has historically been played in Tempo strategies against Combo decks. The biggest impact is the cantrippping nature. Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce largely replaced Disrupt, but it still has some uses.
It really shines against Discard strategies in recouping cards in hand. This was a much bigger concern in 2005 than it is in 2012.
Right. But there are better options now.
How are people finding the one Life from the Loam from the sideboard? I tested it and it never seemed relevant for me to have it. Against the mirror, I just want more dudes and when you're behind in board position, it almost seems useless to have. I'm not sure where it's applications are, so some insight would be appreciated. I'm finding myself wanting 2 board sweepers in the board: 2 pyroclasm or 2 rough/tumble. Elves, goblins, and affinity are getting more popular and sweepers seem really good at the moment.
the main purpose of LftL, as you mentioned, is to defend against the mirror or any other similarly situated deck (BUG, for example). Proactively, it provides Wastelock. Re-actively, it allows you to return Wastelanded lands.
Personally, I run 1. I've had it win me games. I've had it not been so great. All other things being equal, in the mirror match, the first player to find LftL usually wins the game. Especially if the other player didn't bring one in. I've had games where I've Wasted, returned with LftL, Wasted again, and my opponent quit. However, it is a very reactive/slow/resource consuming card for a Tempo deck.
For the decks that don't run it, I think the philosophy is "I'll win the game before LftL matters."
Since UW-Miracle is not only the big elephant in the room, but propably one of the most solid choices (besides RUG, S&S) right now (Atlanta/Ghent), it is time to ponder about how to beat the worst MU Threshold has right now, especially for the lists that lack Stifle.
Envelop is the most narrow way to deal with both Terminus and Show and Tell and I think it might work out better than crossfingers on your own FoW backed up with REB/PB.
Everyone else here who doesn't feel that good about allbasicland.removal.deck@JaceCB.com? It is literally the only MU I am worried about.
Hello everyone!
I recently got back to Canadian and am currently testing it for GP Ghent.
@I am the brainwasher:
I am currently 7-2 against UW-Miracle in testing and although you can lose, I definitely don't see this matchup being bad. Granted, I am playing with 4 Stifle.
Imo Blasts are the best and most efficient SB-cards vs. them and even though they play a lot of basics, you can mana-screw them to some degree most of the time. Just be careful to not overextend too much and counter Brainstorm if you anticipate a miracle.
@all: Just some thoughts:
- I don't think that three graveyardhate-effects are enough for a GP. At Amsterdam last year there was a lot of Dredge and Reanimator. Therefore I am currently planning with 5 slots for theses matchups, but one of them might be an Ooze which can be used in many matchups.
- I currently have problems with Elves. They tend to win every game in which I fail to get an early Delver going. I don't like sweepers in Canadian that much, but they might be necessary to fight Elves and Goblins.
- I tested the matchup vs Maverick, piloted by a competent player, for a whole day and came up winning more than losing. The funny thing is that I won more games (both pre- and post SB) on the draw. Did anyone of you had similar results vs. Maverick? The sample-size wasn't that high (about 40-50 games), but the matchup is quite attrition-based and therefore the extra card might matter more than one would normally think.
That new merfolk lord what a joke. I hope those merfolk players arnt serious about beating rug with our 7 burn spells and 3 spellsnares. And lets not forget about Daze and FOW. Only deck I see getting the upperhand on us is a Big Maverick or Big Zoo being good again with the unbanning of landtax but hell we can get away with playing with one land down anyway so I'm not that worried
@Irenicus. Which version of Maverick did you play against? I found the GW (Fauna version) easier to beat compared to the version running Punishing Fire.
Regarding sweepers, is Sulfur Elemental still a necessity? It looks like Thresh should switch back to pyroclasm/rough tumble/firespout. Any thoughts?
It was just GW (with a minor U-splash), though he wasn't playing Fauna Shaman. The list was similar to the following and played by the same player:Quote:
Originally Posted by cheerios
GW-Maverick
Because I haven't seen or played vs. a Punishing-Fires-Maverick in a while, I actually don't intent to test that matchup. My current opinion is that the GW-Version is just the superior deck, but as I don't know that much about Maverick I might be wrong.
@ Sulfur Elemental:
I don't think that it is needed vs. Maverick. You might want to play it if there is a lot of Lingering Souls in your meta, but because Elves and Goblins are seeing more play, I think of Rough/Tumble when I am talking about sweepers.
Even if I don't tend to overextend, the MU doesn't seem as great to me, especially preboard, sorry. Maybe I'm just doin it wrong here, but since most builds run 2 Clique's now and lowered/dropped that (in this deck) awkward Snapcaster Mage, things got way, way worse IMO. Delivering early beats against this deck seems very important, but in my experience it is tough to keep them away from stretching the game to the point where pure CA and an established mana base wrecks you. Having a conditional StP 5-8 that also hits Mongeese (aka Terminus) is still a big deal, even if you might get them good with Stifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus
The biggest problem though is that Nimble Mongoose, who is a beast against control-decks in general, just doesn't grow fast enough. Terminus, StP and them playing 0-2 spells until turn 4 are so not feeding that little fella, which puts you in the spot to not beeing able to freeze the game at a mid or early stage. Thought Scour is on paper the best solution for either you not reaching Threshold early enough, or when they suspiciously cast a BS. When the card wouldn't suck so hard in other MU's, I would propably play it as a 2/3 of. Good UW players definetly still know how to annoy the crap outta this deck.
This is what I thought about as well. Playing 3 SE/Cage and a single Crypt seems right to me. If you have the space for Ooze, why not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus
IMO 2-3 clasm effects are pretty much set in stone in this deck since it was created. There are just too much decks out there who get owned pretty good by semi-sweepers even without overextending.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus
I didn't paid too much attention on if I was on the play/draw, but in general, I don't think the MU is that hard too. Your main/side - board configuration does matter quite a lot here though. I think that it is correct to have 2 Mind Harness, 2 Rough//Tumble and a single Sulfur Elemental in the board for that MU. I am not a huge fan of Submerge against Maverick since it doesn't change the board state as much as I would like to and Gaddock Teeg denies the card completeley. Mind Harness is bonkers at stealing Ooze's and KotR's, which are the only problematic cards in this MU (well, Thrun, but he can be outnumbered, flown over or walled by Goyf. Trolls gonna troll.), so I don't see a reason to give Submerge the nod over these.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus
Greetings!
Greetings All!
I just figured I should post a quick tournament report regard my Legacy locals this week. The tournament was held Tuesday June 26th 2012 at Kidforce Collectibles in Berea, Ohio. I managed to sweep the tourney so I figured that I should give you guys a brief overview.
Maindeck
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Gilded Drake
1 Life for the Loam
4 Submerge
Round 1: Poor Man Storm
This guy’s deck was basically just red ritual spells and the end goal was to Empty the Warrens. It wasn't Charbelcher… just mono-red storm.
Game 1: I was on the play and had a double FoW hand complimented by a Delver. Delver flips on the second blind attempt (no Brainstorms) and gets there. I do have to FoW a Seething Song to keep him from comboing on his turn two.
Game 2: I am on the draw and keep a one lander with a Ponder and Spell Pierce. I don’t hit a second land or a FoW off of the Ponder. He made 14 Goblins and I scooped them up.
Game 3: I am on the play again and have a very similar hand to game 1. I have turn one Delver with Force backup. He goes for it on his second turn. I Force the Seething Song keeping him from Emptying. Notes get fuzzy here… but I ended the game with a flipped Delver and 3 Tarmogoyfs. He went off again, but it was only for like 6 or 8 goblins. I believe I Forked Bolted two and then the Goyfs just kept him from being threatening.
1-0:2-1
Round 2: MUD
Game 1: I lost the roll and was on the draw with a solid opener, 2 lands, Delver, Brainstorm and 2 FoWs and maybe a Ponder (not sure about that last card). I lead Delver counter both tries for Metalworker that my opponent makes. That keeps his hand slow enough my Aberration to get there. Admittedly assisted by Ancient Tomb.
Game 2: I have a decent opener but it lacks FoW. He metalworks a Trinisphere and a Kuldotha Forgemater into play on turn two. This lead to Blightsteel Colossus on the following turn… yea I died.
Game 3: My opponent Mulls to 5, I am guessing looking for a Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void. I was on the play and stuck my only card of the game… Delver of Secrets. He Wastelands me on his next turn leaving me high and dry on mana. My Delver flips. I beat for 3 and pass. He stick a Chalice at 1 and I pray that my Delver can get there… which it does. I played one spell this entire game and it got there… talk about run-goods!
2-0:4-2
Round 3: High Tide
Game 1: I lead Delver with Daze and Force backup. I Daze his turn one Brainstorm. This was apparently correct as he didn’t play another land. I then flipped Delver, beat, and passed. I Spell Pierced a Ponder on his turn and he didn’t hit another land the rest of the game.
Game 2: I don’t remember much about this game. I just remember leaving one or two blue up for the majority of both games to represent all sorts of counter spells. This made it hard for my opponent to combo. I stuffed an attempt and with a Mongoose and Delver I got there.
3-0:6-2
Round 4: RUG Delver
Game 1: My opponent won the roll and mulliganed to 6. I ate a bunch of early damage from an opposing flipped Delver. But managed to stabilize and land double Goyf. This swung the tide of the game, enough so to close the game.
Game 2: I ate 3 from a flipped Delver but Bolted it off after landing a Goyf. This game my hand was really wild. I had triple Goyf, which is usually clunky and slow, but when facing Submerges, seemed okay. My first Goyf got Submerged and Thought Scoured away. But with two still in my hand, I was okay. I had stopped my opponent’s clock and I had the threats. I managed to get both Goyfs and a Mongoose (threshed by my opponent’s Thought Scour) into play over the next couple turns. This coupled with a few good cantrips kept him from landing threats, while I was the beatdown.
4-0:8-2
Round 5: Budget Patriot Delver
This deck had no Geist of Saint Traft or duals so I wasn’t too worried. Goyf is bigger than everything in his deck. So as long as it stays in play I should have the upper hand. This guy’s record was also 3-0-1, so I couldn’t prize split with him. I just had to go for it.
Game 1: I flip an early Delver and stick the Scavenging Ooze. Ooze netted me a couple points of life by eating his Delvers and Snapcaster Mages that I picked off or countered. I don’t think he was ever really in this game. My Delver applied so much early pressure and my counters kept him from doing anything.
Game 2: He led with a Delver and I matched it with a Mongoose. His Delver flipped and the beats began. I summoned up a Goyf, which he was able to Swords when it attacked the following turn. In my second main phase I doubled-down with a second Goose. Both of my Geese were threshed so I quickly caught up and passed him in the damage race. It gets fuzzy here… but he played a Jotan Grunt which I Lightning Bolted and halved the damage on a Forked Bolt between it and him. He Submerged the Grunt back to his library. So I was able to get 6 in putting him a near lethal. He replayed the Grunt and passed. I drew a Lightning Bolt which was not quite enough to get kill him. So I passed. The Grunt put some spells back on the bottoms of my library. He attacked with the Grunt. I declared a double block and pre damage Wastelanded myself to regain Threshold. It was a rough move, but it killed his Grunt and left a clear lane for my lone Goose to shoot down twice for the win.
5-0:10-2
Overall I was really happy with the list. The maindeck was pretty awesome. I think the sideboard could use a bit of work though. There have been a bunch of more casual players showing up in the past few weeks. So my board might need tweaked to reflect these brews. I ended first overall and got $40 in store credit and free tourney entry to my next event. I used it to get some Standard stuff and to finish off my foil Delver playset. Yea sure I got pretty lucky a few times, but I played pretty tight and probably to the best that I could. Thanks for reading and if you guys have any questions, I would be more than happy to field them!
Nice Job Sturtz.
In regards to the Miracle Top matchup, I don't know that Envelope is the solution. It stops..... Terminus. That's pretty much it. Entreat the Angels too, I guess. Even though it's a hard counter, the condition on it is way to narrow to be good against the Miracle decks, let alone the rest of the field. I'd still play with Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce, and REB all their other relevant spells in the meantime.
The matchup isn't great, but tight play can definitely get you there. Also, if you want to SB against them, pack in 1-2 Sulfuric Vortex. If you resolve it, and can protect it, they probably aren't winning that game. Also, Scour away their tops when they flip them, and maybe go back to packing 3-4 Spell Snare for their Counterbalances (Mystics, Counterspells, Snapcasters, Thopters, whatever), and you should be in decent shape.
Do you want to Scour the top or the assumed Miracle?Quote:
Originally Posted by Borealis
They tap top, you either:
1) Thought Scour in response to remove their top two cards and hope they do not have a Miracle (the only problem is, they can reorder with Top in response), or:
2) Wait for Top to be placed on top of their library, hope they don't draw a Terminus, and Thought Scour Top away.
I just answered my own question. 'Tis best to Scour the top (barring certain mana-light board states).
I see most recent RUG deck plays a couple of thought scours. Does it help the mongoose to reach threshold much better? What other uses does thought scours have in the deck? Filter useless cards off a brainstorm?
That what you have mentioned and works great agaisnt opponents counterbalance and e.tutor. Also you can use it in mirror or another matchups where you side in submerges (if you have them) to put guy top of library and then Scour it away. Also if you play ponder and just want that top card of your library you can mill two useless cards away with Scour. And yet another situation i have encounter, if you are going to flip delver, you can mill away card if you don't like it with Scour. There will are more situations where you that shines so i recommend to give it atleast a try.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987