[Deck] Dredge

I am picking up dredge staples today so it can be my "unfair" deck to play when I don't feel like playing nice. DRS has taken a downturn recently due to all of the UW TNN decks out there. Going 4 color for deathrite shaman is just asking for mana problems in larger tourneys and the pro's are much more likely to play UW than they are to play Ugbw. I think the guy that won SCG Oakland was about a week ahead of schedule with the TNN deck that was made to beat other TNN decks with Verdicts main and Zealous Persecutions in the board

All of the TNN/Artifact hate that is about to surface means people will start depending on other players graveyard hate to battle dredge…and thats how dredge wins tournaments.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I am picking up dredge staples today so it can be my "unfair" deck to play when I don't feel like playing nice. DRS has taken a downturn recently due to all of the UW TNN decks out there. Going 4 color for deathrite shaman is just asking for mana problems in larger tourneys and the pro's are much more likely to play UW than they are to play Ugbw. I think the guy that won SCG Oakland was about a week ahead of schedule with the TNN deck that was made to beat other TNN decks with Verdicts main and Zealous Persecutions in the board

All of the TNN/Artifact hate that is about to surface means people will start depending on other players graveyard hate to battle dredge…and thats how dredge wins tournaments.

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I believe that this will be more or less correct. The problem this causes for Dredge is that people running this build run Snapcaster. Which means Surgical is on it's way back. This is already showing in results from last weekend.

So we already have to deal with Deathrite, and he is going nowhere due to his proliferation in decks outside of the TNN spectrum. And we still need Artifact hate to some degree. Since even though Artifact-based Hate may be on the decline, the Blade decks are at an all-time high. And there will be times when you just don't have the Therapy. Batterskull and Jitte are serious issues to any non-broken Dredge draw, regardless of what anyone says. Now we have to worry about added threats to deal with Surgical. And since most decks will have two of these, most likely Surgical/Snap+Equipment(+TNN), or Deathrite+Nihil, sideboard space needs to be condensed as much as possible to deal with them. The good news is that Leyline is gone, and RiP is on a steep decline. At least in decks that can protect it. So a hedge away from Enchantment removal might be a safe course.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

I believe that this will be more or less correct. The problem this causes for Dredge is that people running this build run Snapcaster. Which means Surgical is on it's way back. This is already showing in results from last weekend.

So we already have to deal with Deathrite, and he is going nowhere due to his proliferation in decks outside of the TNN spectrum. And we still need Artifact hate to some degree. Since even though Artifact-based Hate may be on the decline, the Blade decks are at an all-time high. And there will be times when you just don't have the Therapy. Batterskull and Jitte are serious issues to any non-broken Dredge draw, regardless of what anyone says. Now we have to worry about added threats to deal with Surgical. And since most decks will have two of these, most likely Surgical/Snap+Equipment(+TNN), or Deathrite+Nihil, sideboard space needs to be condensed as much as possible to deal with them. The good news is that Leyline is gone, and RiP is on a steep decline. At least in decks that can protect it. So a hedge away from Enchantment removal might be a safe course.

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Glad to hear you affirm that. I always thought it was pretty tight to get there when you whiff and have to go beatdown. That's why I used the Griselbrands as a crutch/boon/whatever.

Have any of you ever ran Noxious Revival? I originally was going to try Street Wraith, but decided there's better ways to answer Deathrite. If it actually turned into Deathrite + Surgical as the primary hate cards, maybe Noxious Revival could make a comeback?

Hello,

I've a tourney next week and I'll use Dredge because a friend will borrow the deck.
Starting from the classic "quadlaser -1 ichorid +1 dr", do you think that in current meta it could make sense to find space for 3-4 Firestorm MD?
In that case, what should I cut?


Thanks,
ML

went to a weekly local tonight trying something different with the list.

Creatures

4 grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 thug
3 putrid imp
2 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
1 flayer of the hatebound
2 street wraith

Business

4 LED
4 careful study
3 faithless looting
3 breakthrough
4 cabal therapy
2 dread return
4 bridge from below

Lands

4 cephalid colisseum
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
1 tarnished citadel

sideboard

3 natures claim
1 ichorid
2 nether shadow
2 ancient grudge
1 elesh norn
1 iona
1 breakthrough
2 firestorm
2 pithing needle

The only main difference in the lsit i've been running was moving the third ichorid from the main to the sideboard and cutting one putrid imp too add two street wraiths to the main board. Theoretically it's tech against deathrite shaman activations as i'm in a metagame with both shardless and deathblade. I figured going in it would be sweet tech on the draw and jsut an extra card draw for a free dredge.

Round 1 vs DnT

I lose the die roll and start with a hand of stinkweed imp (2), putrid imp, gemstone, gemstone, faithless looting, Narcomeoba. He plays an aether vial and passes. I draw an LED and play putrid imp then pass. He drops a port, ticks vial to one and passes. I pitch an imp end of turn, he ports me, then i drop my next gemstone, play my faithless looting crack the LED and swarm the board with zombies after dread returning an ichorid for more zombies lol.

I side in elesh norn and a breakthrough taking out both street wraiths. I then open with a nut draw and turn one with flayer.

Round 2 vs BUG

I win the die roll and keep a hand with therapy, breakthrough, led, thug, thug, cephalid, gemstone. Looking at it i can attempt to go for the turn one, but decide instead decide to therapy him for force of will so i can gain some info and combo off again next turn. He forces my therapy, pitching a jace, and i pass. He plays deathrite shaman and says go. I draw a bridge, play my LED, play breakthrough crack the led, dredge some narco's and another bridge, i dread return an ichorid for 6 zombies, swing with it, he chooses not to block and lets three get through... my ichorid dies and i get two more zombies. he draws his next card then scoops and were on to game two.

I side in two firestorms and an ichorid, taking out tarnished citadel, LED, and a putrid Imp.

I mull to six and get a hand of careful study, looting, city of brass, troll, troll, bridge. He plays a deathrite then passes. I draw flayer, play my land and play careful study, he forces the study pitching an ancestral vision, and I pass. He draws, fetches, then suspends an ancestral and passes. On my turn I draw a street wraith and get a little excited to test it lol. I play the looting, and draw two, getting a land and a second street wraith 0.o.... i pitch the two dredgers play a land and pass... He attempts to eat one of the trolls, i cycle in response getting some chaff and a therapy. He untaps, plays another deathrite and tries to eat my last dredger, I cycle again, getting two ichorids and another troll 0.o.... On my turn i bring both ichorids back exiling street wraiths and dredge six, getting a narco a dread return and a flayer. I dread return the flayer, get three zombies and kill one deathrite losing my bridges, then flashback therapy and kill the other deathrite. I then proceed to ride flayer and ichorid lightning bolts for the win.

Round 3 vs Omnitell (essentially a bye)

Game one I'm on the draw, my hand is led, led, led, faithless looting, cephalid, stinkweed, thug. He ponders, shuffles, passes. I draw an ichorid, play one LED, he forces it pitching a preordain. I play my second and third LED, drop the cephalid colisseum, crack one LED for three blue and the other LED for three red and activate colisseum's threshold. I dredge my deck... he scoops his cards lol.

Game two, i sided in literally only iona for flayer of the hatebound. Im on the draw again and i mull to six, then five, then four... my four is legit land, land, land, iona... lol. I look at it, decide to keep and hope i get to be the ultimate troll and drop the iona in off of a show and tell. I've only ever done it once before but figured i might as well stick to this plan again since im on a mull to four. He plays his land and ponders, i draw and play my land. He plays ancient tomb show and tell, he drops in omniscience and i drop in iona... GG lol. was pretty fun lol

Fairly small this week. Wasn;t able to test the main tech as much as I wanted to, but the one game i had it it did what it was supposed to do. Probably a little lucky and probably had surprise on my side, but i'll keep testing it and see how i like it for now. def didn't notice to big of a change but three games is a small sample size... normally i'm playing against deathrite.dec every round at this tournament each week but only played one deathrite list this week thankfully, was good for a lot of store credit which is always swag

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Originally Posted by raikenxy

...2 street wraith...

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Nice! Isn't Putrid Imp too slow for current environment?
I was thinking about replacing it for firestorm but I will have less black creatures for Ichorid.
Would it be a good idea to replace it for Street Wrath? I also thought about it for DRS, my doubt was that since the first time that an opponent will see it, he will start using DRS on Ichorid and Narco only.

Against which decks the Putrid Imp route is still viable?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Minosse

Nice! Isn't Putrid Imp too slow for current environment?
I was thinking about replacing it for firestorm but I will have less black creatures for Ichorid.
Would it be a good idea to replace it for Street Wrath? I also thought about it for DRS, my doubt was that since the first time that an opponent will see it, he will start using DRS on Ichorid and Narco only.

Against which decks the Putrid Imp route is still viable?

Thanks

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I would say putrid Imp is viable against most decks honestly? not gonna lie he sets up a lot of turn two wins, which is still considerably fast. I wouldnt take him out at all honestly. The reasoning I used for using street wraith ahead of deathrite was that it works better alongside putrid imp careful study hands that don't allow me to go off right there. So say my opponent drops a DRS, and my opening hand is Imp or careful study and they are my only way to get dredgers in the yard alongside the street wraith. the street wraith lets me power past the initial drs activation into more business, effectively time walking my opponent as they have theoretically held back mana and their drs to eat a dredger in my graveyard to prevent me from drowning them in card advantage. Plus there are some games where putrid Imp is simply a stud, there will be games where your opponent just drops a tormods crypt and lays on it forever. thats when you u just start dredging four cards a turn with golgari thug and and sandbag a troll or stinkweed in ur hand until they get scared. Most people will pop a crypt at the wrong time, and u'll just respond by dredging six the next turn

mostly i would say putrid imp is great against everything. He's a solid enabler and a body to sac for cabal therapy or dr (if u run it or not) i think firestorm is purely just a sideboard card and is better there then in the maindeck

Played Dredge for the first time tonight at my local. Went an unimpressive 0-2, but I felt like I was decent at piloting the deck. I did make a sideboard error against hypergenesis by not bringing in any hate for his leyline in G2 which I shouldve expected. I played against Merfolk and I boarded like this: -4 LED, -1 Dread Return (no targets outside of huge grave troll main), fire storm, +4 Bloodghast, +2 Nature's Claim. Does this seem right? I figured I wanted to be less all in on LED plan since he has counter spells. The Ichorids and Ghast would give me a solid grindy plan, it worked in G2. G3 I just mulled to shit and died. Overall I enjoyed it though. Nice change of pace from KOTR decks that I have been playing for a few months.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Played Dredge for the first time tonight at my local. Went an unimpressive 0-2, but I felt like I was decent at piloting the deck. I did make a sideboard error against hypergenesis by not bringing in any hate for his leyline in G2 which I shouldve expected. I played against Merfolk and I boarded like this: -4 LED, -1 Dread Return (no targets outside of huge grave troll main), fire storm, +4 Bloodghast, +2 Nature's Claim. Does this seem right? I figured I wanted to be less all in on LED plan since he has counter spells. The Ichorids and Ghast would give me a solid grindy plan, it worked in G2. G3 I just mulled to shit and died. Overall I enjoyed it though. Nice change of pace from KOTR decks that I have been playing for a few months.

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what list did u run? im glad you enjoyed playing it tho, it's def a nice change from playing "traditional" magic. but why run bloodghasts? did your list have dakmor salvage for recursion? if you prefer the extra power bloodghast has over nether shadow i'd recommend running ashen ghouls and extra land in the sideboard over bloodghast, i've never been impressed with it in dredge for the most part.

against merfolk im never too interested in killing their dudes, as you are just as capable (and faster) at swarming the board with zombies. I've always only ever brought in elesh norn and two ancient grudge against them. elesh norn is like... pretty monsterous against them, even with all their lords, all your zombies become 4/4 and the permanent whither against them is pretty crippling. ancient grudge has always been pretty baller as well. Most gravehate i've ever experienced from them was in the form of relic of progenitus or tormods crypt, ancient grudge makes them pop both of these the second it hits the yard, hedges against their jitte activations if they run jitte, and also targets aether vial pretty nicely. often times if you blow up their vial on turn two or three after sniping their counters with cabal therapy they are pretty much just too far behind. They're fundamental turn for swarming the board is turn 4, which is just way to slow to apply pressure to you outside of immediate graveyard hate

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Originally Posted by raikenxy

what list did u run? im glad you enjoyed playing it tho, it's def a nice change from playing "traditional" magic. but why run bloodghasts? did your list have dakmor salvage for recursion? if you prefer the extra power bloodghast has over nether shadow i'd recommend running ashen ghouls and extra land in the sideboard over bloodghast, i've never been impressed with it in dredge for the most part.

against merfolk im never too interested in killing their dudes, as you are just as capable (and faster) at swarming the board with zombies. I've always only ever brought in elesh norn and two ancient grudge against them. elesh norn is like... pretty monsterous against them, even with all their lords, all your zombies become 4/4 and the permanent whither against them is pretty crippling. ancient grudge has always been pretty baller as well. Most gravehate i've ever experienced from them was in the form of relic of progenitus or tormods crypt, ancient grudge makes them pop both of these the second it hits the yard, hedges against their jitte activations if they run jitte, and also targets aether vial pretty nicely. often times if you blow up their vial on turn two or three after sniping their counters with cabal therapy they are pretty much just too far behind. They're fundamental turn for swarming the board is turn 4, which is just way to slow to apply pressure to you outside of immediate graveyard hate

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Oh I did not think about bringing in Elesh Norn. That wouldve been great. I dont actually have the list as I borrowed it from a friends, but it did run 4 Ghast and Undiscovered Paradise out of the board which was pretty damn clutch at recurring Bloodghast over and over again. I also didnt think of Ancient Grudge. Seems solid. I think his Bloodghast idea was just to have more recurring threats from the yards and just focus on grinding with Ghasts and Ichorids vs like the miracles decks and such. Like I said, maybe it was wrong, but I just figured that he would keep in his Forces and Dazes and I would try to make them as worthless as possible.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Oh I did not think about bringing in Elesh Norn. That wouldve been great. I dont actually have the list as I borrowed it from a friends, but it did run 4 Ghast and Undiscovered Paradise out of the board which was pretty damn clutch at recurring Bloodghast over and over again. I also didnt think of Ancient Grudge. Seems solid. I think his Bloodghast idea was just to have more recurring threats from the yards and just focus on grinding with Ghasts and Ichorids vs like the miracles decks and such. Like I said, maybe it was wrong, but I just figured that he would keep in his Forces and Dazes and I would try to make them as worthless as possible.

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the reasoning is def solid, i think your friend's list might benefit from ashen ghoul over bloodghast tho. and there really isnt right or wrong, only because i feel ghouls 3 power is a lot more effective at grinding wins out, especially through creature decks where in legacy three power is good enough to kill most things... but diff play styles determine deck choices after all, and if his list ran ghasts and he enjoys them more power to him. i run a dread return package mainboard with flayer and that's not industry standard as most people prefer the quadlazer list, but its just my preference. like you said they did perform well for you and im glad you enjoyed playing it. And you are correct, he will always keep both force, daze, spell pierce and cursecatcher are all thing u want to watch out for. next time, if you decide to dredge again :) when ur oponent is on the play, if ur merfolk opponents doesnt drop gravehate immediately just don't even play your spells. just discard your dredger and he'll just be frustrated he kept a hand with aether vial, force, force, force, pierce, daze and no actual pressure what so ever. then u just slow dredge ur way to victory and can laugh ur way to the next round lol

I've been playing TES for awhile, but I'm going to give that deck a small break, and I'm putting dredge together! I have most of the deck, can't wait to get some play time with it.

What would you guys say the typical sideboard for dredge looks like?(I think I am going to build the version with Flame-Kin Zealot)

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Originally Posted by Kowitz

I've been playing TES for awhile, but I'm going to give that deck a small break, and I'm putting dredge together! I have most of the deck, can't wait to get some play time with it.

What would you guys say the typical sideboard for dredge looks like?(I think I am going to build the version with Flame-Kin Zealot)

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I would say there is no typical sideboard for a deck like this. If anything maybe you can start with 4x Natures Claim which is usually the standard (I don't even run them in my sb lol).

Fair enough! I guess I will just play around with a few things and see what works for me.

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Originally Posted by Kowitz

Fair enough! I guess I will just play around with a few things and see what works for me.

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i'll share the one i've been using for the last couple weeks and the reasons behind each card, just to give u an idea on what to choose

1 elesh Norn: if your running a dread return packagae with zealot, she is a great sideboard card against creature heavy meta's and usually is gg once she resolves
1 Iona: she's not as good as she used to be, but she's still good game against decks like high tide, omnitell, burn, and storm
2 ancient grudge: much better now that esper has picked up with TNN, a lot more useful as u can simply dredge into it and u don't have to have it in ur hand
2 nether shadow: great as extra bodies for dread return, always bring them in to combat surgical/snapcaster mage shenanigans
1 breakthrough: i usually run one in the sideboard and three main, as u usualy only need three game one, the fourth can come in against combo/non blue decks
2 firestorm: drs, drs, drs... plus its a monster versus elves and dnt
3 pithing needle/leyline of sanctity: catch all answers versus most artifact grave hate, i swap these out now and then but lean more towards needle
3 natures claim: i'm growing less fond of this card as i play it, but i still need an asnwer to leyline of the void and rest in peace

im going to test out wispmare/ingot chewer in the natures claim and iona slots soon. I usually have only brought iona in against omnitell and storm recently, but you can always just race these match ups... and i feel like hedging against miracles is going to be a good idea as that match up is almost never winnable if they run RIP main. ingot chewer/wispmare get around a lot of counters including the countertop lock

Thanks for the good starting point. What are you usually boarding out, when boarding those cards in?

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Originally Posted by raikenxy

i'll share the one i've been using for the last couple weeks and the reasons behind each card, just to give u an idea on what to choose

1 elesh Norn: if your running a dread return packagae with zealot, she is a great sideboard card against creature heavy meta's and usually is gg once she resolves
1 Iona: she's not as good as she used to be, but she's still good game against decks like high tide, omnitell, burn, and storm
2 ancient grudge: much better now that esper has picked up with TNN, a lot more useful as u can simply dredge into it and u don't have to have it in ur hand
2 nether shadow: great as extra bodies for dread return, always bring them in to combat surgical/snapcaster mage shenanigans
1 breakthrough: i usually run one in the sideboard and three main, as u usualy only need three game one, the fourth can come in against combo/non blue decks
2 firestorm: drs, drs, drs... plus its a monster versus elves and dnt
3 pithing needle/leyline of sanctity: catch all answers versus most artifact grave hate, i swap these out now and then but lean more towards needle
3 natures claim: i'm growing less fond of this card as i play it, but i still need an asnwer to leyline of the void and rest in peace

im going to test out wispmare/ingot chewer in the natures claim and iona slots soon. I usually have only brought iona in against omnitell and storm recently, but you can always just race these match ups... and i feel like hedging against miracles is going to be a good idea as that match up is almost never winnable if they run RIP main. ingot chewer/wispmare get around a lot of counters including the countertop lock

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Wispmare being a great way to get around Spell Pierce is sweet too.

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Originally Posted by raikenxy

im going to test out wispmare/ingot chewer in the natures claim and iona slots soon. I usually have only brought iona in against omnitell and storm recently, but you can always just race these match ups... and i feel like hedging against miracles is going to be a good idea as that match up is almost never winnable if they run RIP main. ingot chewer/wispmare get around a lot of counters including the countertop lock

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You'll be glad you did. They've been good in testing. I would recommend 3x Wispmare.

My current list remains quadlazer -1 ichorid +1 dread return (more towards combo).

Sideboard:
4 Lotus Petal (race combos/hate) - i find myself siding those in more than anything else
4 Nature's Claim (rest in peace and grafdigger's cage)
4 Pithing Needle (deathrite shaman and artifacts)
1 Ashen Rider (emrakul and shenanigans)
1 Dread Return (enable targets)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (death and taxes and tribals)

My soft spots are chalice for 1 (since no ancient grudge/ingot chewer) [not facing much, though] and merfolks (since no firestorm to discard and sweep at the same time) [yup, they are coming back...=/].

Also, since I decided for Nature's Claim over Chain of Vapor (chain isn't very effective against rest in peace and cage), I may drop a coliseum for a tarnished citadel.

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Originally Posted by indefinite.soul

My current list remains quadlazer -1 ichorid +1 dread return (more towards combo).

Sideboard:
4 Lotus Petal (race combos/hate) - i find myself siding those in more than anything else
4 Nature's Claim (rest in peace and grafdigger's cage)
4 Pithing Needle (deathrite shaman and artifacts)
1 Ashen Rider (emrakul and shenanigans)
1 Dread Return (enable targets)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (death and taxes and tribals)

My soft spots are chalice for 1 (since no ancient grudge/ingot chewer) [not facing much, though] and merfolks (since no firestorm to discard and sweep at the same time) [yup, they are coming back...=/].

Also, since I decided for Nature's Claim over Chain of Vapor (chain isn't very effective against rest in peace and cage), I may drop a coliseum for a tarnished citadel.

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I would strongly advise NOT dropping a colosseum ... Coliseum is an uncounterable draw three and is one of the core dredge staples most people would agree upon. Going to three makes u more reliant on multiple draw spells, especially if ur doing it mainly for the sake of a sideboard card