Or colorLESS you skeptical amiright?!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
OK I'll shut up now...
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Or colorLESS you skeptical amiright?!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
OK I'll shut up now...
Hahaha, where's the 'like' button when you need it :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Svyelunite
Hey all, relatively new D&T player here, been lurking for a while and I figured I’d put up a tournament report of the Super IQ that I got 4th at this past weekend.
Here is the list I ran:
Creature
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Vryn Wingmare
Spells
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Land
8 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Warping Wail
1 Council's Judgment
2 Cataclysm
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
There were 39 players, so 6 rounds of swiss:
R1 vs. Elves (Draw) (1-1-1)
I knew my opponent was on elves, having seen him top 8 an event last weekend. Was not excited about this matchup to start the tournament.
G1: I have a fine hand with a plow, Revoker, SFM and hope to be able to slow him down a little bit. He plays turn 1 GSZ for Dryad arbor, and on turn 2 he casts glimpse… uh-oh, but he only gets 2 draws after I plow the Birchlore Ranger with the Nettle Sentinel on the stack… phew. I fetch a Jitte then revoke the 2 Deathrites he plays. But the Wirewoods blank my Jitte and he draws a Cradle and GSZs for the Craterhoof.
G2: Really grindy game, He hardcasts a Ruric Thar on turn 4 or so, I take a few hits but stabilize with a Batterskull on Thalia, after Reclamation Sage killed my Jitte and Sword. I get there after a Cataclysm effectively wipes his board.
G3: We have about 2 minutes left in the round, and my hand is 2 land Canonist, Containment Priest, a Plow and some other cards that don’t matter. He Reclamation Sages the Canonist, and goes for Natural Order on T5 of turns, I flash in the Containment Priest and take the draw.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, 1 Warping Wail, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Pithing Needle (I think)
Out: Thalias, Vryn Wingmare, Mangara, and trimmed a Mom and a Vial
R2 vs. Omni-Tell L (0-2)
G1: He is on the play with mono islands and cantrips the first few turns. I have only a Mom, and Port him a few times but he draws lands and casts Show and Tell. he puts in Omniscience and I Flickerwisp it out. On my turn I attack for 4 and play a Flickerwisp on my Flickerwisp to keep his Omnisicience off the table for a turn. I attack him to 6, play a Mangara for an extra body, he Forces. I punt by not casting a vial for my 8th permanent, he attacks and I don’t have enough to crack back.
G2: I have a few hate bears but he gets to five lands or so and Shows an Emrakul. I have to attack into it and hope to draw something to get in for lethal after sacrificing my board. But I don’t get there.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, 1 Warping Wail, 1 Council’s Judgment,
Out: 1 Mom, 4 Plow, Mirran Crusader, Jitte
R3 vs. Esper Mentor W (2-1)
G1: Pretty back and forth, I eventually have a Plow for his Mentor and manage to whittle down the tokens and take the game with a few Sword hits.
G2: Gitaxian Probe into Cabal Therapy gets 2 Thalias, Deathrite and a Mentor comes down and he Probes and therapy something else. I die to Mentor and Monks shortly thereafter.
G3: We each plow a threat, and he casts Surgical Extraction on my Plows. The game goes really long, I attack him to 6 with a board of Mom, Flickerwisp, Mirran Crusader, and Wilt-Leaf Liege. He has a Jace and tries to bounce my Crusader. I give it pro-blue, but he plows it and then Abrupt Decays my Flickerwisp. He is hellbent and attacks for 2 with his only blocker. I untap, ask: “How many cards?” “None” So I attack for lethal with my WLL and 2 power Mom.
SB: 1 Pithing Needle 1 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Rest In Peace, Council’s Judgment, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
Out: Don’t remember exactly, I think I trimmed the Thalias, a Vial, and SFM,
R4 vs. Mono-red Sneak Attack W (2-0)
G1: I’m on the draw and he has turn 2 Seething Song, Lotus Petal, Spirit Guide, Sneak Attack, put in Emrakul and Inferno Titan. I could have plowed the Titan and gone to 2, and hope to rebuild before he hits another creature, but for some reason I had a brain fart and just scooped.
G2: He has turn one Chalice for one and Trinisphere, but Port, Waste and Hatebears get there. I preemptively Revoke the Sneak Attack. He drops a Pyromancy (2RR Enchantment: 3, Discard a card at random: Pyromancy deals damage to target creature or player equal to the cmc of the discarded card), which is a card I had never seen before, but I Flickerwisp to reset my Revoker and swing over the next couple turns.
G3: he has a chalice and a turn 3 or 4 Inferno Titan. I have a couple creatures out and attacks/Ancient Tombs have him down to 6 or so. I fetch up a Sword of Fire and Ice to get past the titan if he leaves it back. He attacks, kills a guy and plays a Spirit Guide to block, but the Pro-red gets my last creature through for the win.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, Council’s Judgment, Pithing Needle
Out: 4 Mom, Jitte, Mangara, Mirran Crusader
R5 vs. MUD W (2-0)
G1: He drops a turn 1 Chalice and shuts off my 2 Plows. At one point I think non-creature spells would have cost 4 more to cast, between Thalia, 2 Lodestones and a Vryn Wingmare. He fetches up a Blightsteel with one of his Forgemasters. I have a decent board, but the Colossus is going to grind me down unless I can kill the chalice. Just in time, I draw a Flickerwisp to clear the chalice and I plow the Colossus for 3 mana. Fliers finish the game.
G2: His turn 1 is two Grim Monoliths into Lodestone, I take a hit, plow it on turn 2 and then Revoke his Metalworker on turn 3. He plays a Coercive Portal and a Forgemaster that I Revoke. I am able to fly over with a Serra Avenger with a Sword of Fire and Ice before he drops anything else.
SB: In 2 Containment Priest, Pithing Needle, Council’s Judgment
Out: 4 Moms. (I don’t remember if I brought in Cataclysm for a Thalias, but it is possible I did)
R6 vs. 4-Color Loam W (2-1)
G1: We are both 3-1-1, so this match is a win and in for top 8. I’m on the play with turn 1 Mom, turn 2 Mom, Vial (Lucky to get these out as he had a T2 Chalice). 2 Moms protect my SOFI equipped Revoker and let me get hits through his Knights, while Port keeps his Maze of Ith down.
G2: I mull to 5 and keep Port, Mom, Plow, Avenger, Flickerwisp. I don’t draw a 2nd land until he wastes me. 2 Plains come of the top but I can’t hold off 3 5/5 Knights.
G3: I play turn 1 Vial, he plays 2 Mox Diamonds and Abrupt Decays it, and does not play a land for his turn. I untap and Revoke the Mox Diamonds, he laughs and only draws one land the rest of the game.
SB: In 1 Council’s Judgment, 1 Wilt-Leaf Liege, 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Containment Priest
Out: I think a Vial, a SFM, 2 Thalias, and the Vryn Wingmare
I end up in 8th place at 4-1-1 after a clean cut at 13 points for top 8.
Top 8 is as follows:
1st: Mono-Red Sneak Attack
2nd: BUG Delver
3rd: 12-Post
4th: Reanimator
5th: Maverick
6th: OmniShow
7th: Infect
8th: Me on D&T
Quarterfinals vs. Mono-Red Sneak Attack (different player than in the Swiss) W (2-1)
G1: He has turn 1 Chalice, shutting off the plow I have in hand, into turn 2 Inferno Titan. I lose quickly.
G2: He mulls and I have a vial into Revoker into Thalia with a port. But sol lands let him Pyroclasm. I think I get there with a SFM, SOFI, and a Flickerwisp before he is able to get a fatty down.
G3: he has a slow opener with 2 mountains and I have a Thalia on T2. He did not play his Petals on his first turns for some reason and has to pay 1 for two them on t3 and misses a land drop. I Revoke the Petals and Ports keep him from doing anything. He shows a hand with 2 Emrakuls, 2 Griselbrands and a Worldspine Wurm.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, Council’s Judgment, Pithing Needle
Out: 4 Mom, Jitte, Mangara, Mirran Crusader
Semis vs. Reanimator L (1-2)
G1: I am glad I get a good matchup here, but being on the draw is still scary. I have Vial, Thalia, Revoker, and a Plow but no Karakas. I keep. He Dazes Thalia then Reanimates a Griselbrand. I don’t draw Karakas and he Forces my Plow, the demon kills me.
G2: I’m on the play with a Vial into Canonist into Thalia. He gets to 4 mana and casts Show and Tell. I have a Flickerwisp, Sword of Fire and Ice and a Karakas I was sandbagging in my hand. I tank for a bit and decide to put in the Sword, he puts in Empyrial Archangel. This will be tough. He hits me twice but then I draw a Mirran Crusader. Crusader plus a sword would be 8 damage, enough to kill the Archangel. I vial it in, untap and go to equip. He casts echoing truth on the crusader, so I vial a Flickerwisp on my crusader to not lose an extra turn to summoning sickness. Next turn I get enough through the angel to kill it and he scoops shortly.
G3: I mull to a hand with a Plow, Thalia, Revoker, Port and Plains, no sideboard hate, but not so bad that I want to mull further. He has turn 1 careful study binning a Griselbrand. I topdeck Karakas and play it (might have be a mistake) and pass with a plow/Karakas up. He plays a Pithing Needle on Karakas and reanimates Griselbrand. I Revoke the Griselbrand, but it is too late. He draws 14 and few attacks and an Elesh Norn later, I am dead.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, Enlightened Tutor, 2 Rest In Peace, Warping Wail, Council’s Judgment
Out: 4 Mom, Jitte, Mangara, and some number of SFM, Vials, and Serra Avenger I believe.
I ended up in 4th, good for $100, which is my best finish with the deck, and I am pretty happy with list I ran.
I was testing the Sea Gate Wreckage, drew a total of 1 extra card all day, wished it was a white source a few times, and had the game end before I was empty-handed a few times as well. Going forward, I think I will try out an Eldrazi Displacer as well, Flickerwisp and Revoker were the MVPs all day and being able to reset them seems great.
^Were you playing at Level up? for this IQ? I thought I was the only D&T player there.
It is. Thalia is good, Phyrexian Revoker on LED is good, Spirit of the Labyrinth is good, Vryn Wingmare is nice if you play it, the denial plan is good since you can also attack their basiclands of which they play 2 or 3 at maximum while all other lands cna be wasted. Furthermore you have decent SB material (Rest in Peace is strong as it hoses PiF and Cabal Ritual, which in return also makes Thalia more effective) and obviously Ethersworn Canonist is very good and can also be tutored for.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
How the matchup usually goes can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xticirLepB4
There is a reason why the experiences Stormplayer don't ever leave the house without either Massacre or Dread of Night in the board.
Ancestral Visions is okay, but if you really board Warping Wail to counter Ponder, it's just not worth to listen to you any further. Not to mention that Spirit of the Labyrinth already stops these cards. Exiling Mother of Runes is good, but the Liliana argument is flawed, because any creature you drop via Aether Vial will kill Liliana when the opponent has no blocker. But if they have blockers, Warping Wail won't kill Liliana anyway, it can hose the sacrifice effect at best.Quote:
Additionally, helping with Elves, and stopping every kind of Miracle, while being an always relevant card is good. It stops Ancestral Visions, the ever present ponder, is an instant-speed dude to equip that dodges Mom, kills Liliana if she dropped and ate someone (or puts a dude out for her to eat.) It stops Reanimate and Exhume; stops Green Sun's Zenith and Painful Truths. Stops Forked Bolt.
Do I really need to go on?
Against Reanimate it is actually quite shitty, Reanimator is extremely fast and leaving Warping Wail up to counter the 2nd Turn Reanimation spell and be cold to Daze is definitely not what you want to do.
So what? I mean, from this statement, playing this card effectively means abandoning the main lines of play and the very basic concept of the deck, so why are we still talking about it? The card is shit in DnT. The only thing where I'd want this is Elves because it literally does EVERYTHING in this matchup. But I would never want this against anything else.Quote:
I can understand arguing that it costs too much for D&T to function properly due to your lands being used to kill others' mana, but the idea that the card doesn't have a useful target in *literally every deck* is not correct.
Massacre and Dread of Night are exactly why this card is good against Storm. You play your hate bears, they play towards their board wipe. This is the solid backup for the longer games.
No one (or at least not me) is writing this card off at this point. We're just trying to temper expectations and not just suck each other's dicks, bending every usage (like using how it counters ponder as an argument) the card has to be fantastic and not really looking at the opportunity cost of running the card (ie what comes out?).Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
No, It was at Phantasy HobbiesQuote:
Originally Posted by Colin
Sure, I don't think countering a 1 mana blue spell with a 2 mana spell is how D+T wins, but claiming that this is bad against storm because we play Thalia is also ridiculous. I don't think you bring this in against every deck with at least one target. But I think it's good-to-great against a sufficient number of decks - including our very worst matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
As a SB card (I'm not arguing that anyone should run it main) - it provides functionality similar to Ratchet Bomb. It isn't an autowin very often but answers a lot of random hard to deal with things across a variety of decks. Mother of Runes, Show and Tell, Natural Order.
OK, I logged on to say this because I think the misunderstanding of this concept has gone on long enough. Thanks for mouthing the words. Now that we are somewhat familiar with the scope of Warping Wail's application, none of us should be especially happy to see this card counter Ponder, Gitaxian Probe, Chain Lightning, or largely inconsequential stuff like that. We should solely be interested in if the actual gameplay scenarios that matter tend to be of the type that allow this card to live up to its potential to give D+T real answers to stuff that we have hitherto just accepted as blowouts that we must weather. Or if it is just too narrow or too hard to cast or low impact or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
Hey there. I'm not sure exactly how to enterpret this post. Are you saying that it is a mistake to be focusing on the cost of bringing out certain cards? In any case I'd just point to your quoting me: my sentence started on the paranthesis which isn't in your quote. Just to say that I wasn't stating that a card has to be "fantastic" be considered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I did misunderstand your words then. I am actually concerned that Wail will not quite have the impact I am hoping it will...Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
(I wish people would be willing to maindeck it so that we can get more information. One or two in the side takes eons to analyze. I was thinking of maindecking two of them during this initial testing period. I figure that it does not want to be in a deck with Wingmares, so it would take those spots.)
...Doesn't it have to be stellar for any of us to want it over a disruptive creature? How important is it to have access to something like this? Does it make sense to lower the bar on power level for this spell because it is an actual hard counter? You get all "dunno" from me at this point. But every time I hear that it countered something small it leads me to believe that either the pilot felt he needed to get rid of it (for all kinds of unfortunate reasons) or he did not know quite what to do with it. Either way, that is not where we want to be with this card. Is it the better play to let Ponder resolve so that you can wait for Show and Tell, Infernal Tutor, or Terminus? I dunno!
If I am leaving Port mana open for this spell, I don't think I want to let Ponder resolve. But here is the important part. Is it best to just sit behind Warping Wail while I attack for a bit each turn? D+T wants to use its mana to heap on more bureaucracy. This would be something entirely new. It is not an organic fit.
It's a worse fit g1 for a lot of reasons:
- As you mentioned, Wingmare (but also Thalia) make it harder to cast, it comes in vs matchups where they either come out (Elves) or might die to sb boardwipe effects (Storm)
- G2/G3 are longer and you're likely to have open mana for it late. G1 you are likely to either win quickly or lose quickly, and your easiest wins are gonna be in games where you could never cast Warping Wail.
Like I said this is like Ratchet Bomb - which can be fantastic but not maindeckable for similar reasons. This is a toolbox card and the fact that it 'cycles' to one-for-one a Ponder etc. is upside that Ratchet Bomb doesn't have, even if it doesn't feel powerful.
Warping Wail is good against Dread of Night? You gonna spawn a 2-mana 1/1 useless dork and win with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Dread of Night means our shields are usually down as the only good Hatebear that survives this is Ethersworn. Having one of these in hand means:
a. if they see it, they still have to get a discard spell before they can win, which gives us time to get damage in.
b. if they don't see it, they might attempt to go off and lose the game despite having the single best sideboard card against D+T in play
This is always going to be plan b vs storm - it's just nice to actually have a plan b.
Incidentally, if this becomes played regularly, even D+T players who *don't* play it will have the option to bluff it once in a while.
I think warping wail's primary purpose will be similar to that of Red Elemental blast. Something to bring in against shardless (to counterr visions) to protect crusader and to bring in against storm and show and tell.
Terminus anyone ?
That...and Entreat, Ancestral Visions, Toxic Deluge, Maelstrom Pulse, Ponder, Preordain, Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith, Cataclysm, Infernal Tutor, Show and Tell, Burning Wish, Merchant Scroll, Gamble, Exhume, Reanimate, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Cabal Therapy, Rift Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, Dread Return, etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Also it exiles, Mother of Runes, Deathrite Shaman, Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage, Swiftspear, Thalia, Goblin Lackey, Baleful Strix, Dryad Arbor, Heritage Druid, etc...
Also it never hurts to throw a sacrificable 1/1 in front of a Batterskull or Jitte to prevent lifelink or counters.
It's worth testing to say the least.
It's easy to compile a list of cards that are worth countering, but you have to break it down to certain matchups. What I am saying is the density of threatening cards matter in order to make Warping Wail a good card. Then again you have to analyze what you actually are supposed to do against certain matchup. In most cases, you'll want to execute your denial-plan, i.e. getting Thalia online asap and using your Wastelands/Ports aggressively. In this line of play, Warping Wail has - in my opinion - no place here as neither contributes to the denial plan, nor does it speed up your clock (significantly, the 1/1 dork doesn't count, and even if, 2-3 Mana for a 1/1 "flash" dork is terrible).Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinTurkey
Countering Ponder or Preordain is moronic. These cards already get really shitty when Thalia's online and can also be easily shut off with Spirit of the Labyrinth which also has a decent 3/1 body.
Terminus also gets mentioned frequently, but if you know your opponent plays it, adjust your lines of play accordingly.
And Cataclysm? Seriously? I can only see that happening in the mirrormatch, and boarding Cataclysm against the mirrormatch is something I'd consider as really stupid as the card essentially says "let's go to topdeckmode". The card has such a large variance to it, and once your opponent happens to play a Flagstones of Trokair (which appears and disappears randomly in and from lists respectively), you'll have this fml-moment and wishing Cataclysm was an actual good card that saves your ass.
The list of creatures is also quite stupid to be direct, cards like Clique, Snapcaster Mage and Baleful Strix create their value when they come into play, so it's usually irrelevant what happens with it afterwards, especially if creature battles against such creatues are easily won by having Mother active, any equipment or dude with evasion. Not to mention that you can still turn Thalia and Mirran Crusader into these dudes without hesitation. And the other relevant part of the list can also be shut down with Revoker.
As I said, it's the density of cards that matter. I won't board Warping Wail when my main plan is to screw my opponent. I won't board in Warping Wail if the only thing it hits are a few irrelevant dorks. I'll definitely want this against Elves as it has maximum value here (and the denial gameplan is actually shit here), but there is no other matchup I can think of that has a similar threat density.
It also does not contribute to the really bad matchups like Jund, Lands and that 4C Aggroloam (because Punishing Fire, yo).
The card is not as good as people are overhyping it here. But then again people don't seem to listen and are unable to think in matchups and gameplans, or just not seeing the basic concept of the deck. So far it's just "there is a list of sorceries this spell can counter and Death and Taxes has quite a few colorless manasources to cast it, ZOMG it's nuts and the real deal!!!111oneoneone"
Ratchet Bomb and Council's Judgement are also slow cards that don't contribute to mana denial or our clock - that have proven to be solid sideboard options. Why? Because they let us deal with a variety of hard to deal with threats and situations. This is similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Also every time you bring up Spirit of the Labyrinth you're undermining your argument since that card has proven to be - like Warping Wail - too match-up dependent to be a card you can reliably maindeck. Unlike WW it just also happens to be even worse post-sideboard. I have no doubt that a year from now there will be more Warping Wails in D+T 75s than Spirit of the Labyrinths - but that's not even much of an achievement.
Anyone else seeing Edlrazi popping up? I'm expecting to see it in Philadelphia.
It's the Modern deck, but it uses 4 Ancient Tomb, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 City of Traitors plus Eldrazi lands, plus 2 Umezawa's Jitte, Phyrexian Revoker, and Endbringer to kill x/1's every turn or draw.
It seems soft to Lands, but it is very fast and Warping Wail is better in that deck that in ours. It brutalizes Miracles because it makes Counterbalance look really bad and it plays 4 Chalice of the Void, which it can play on 1 immediately, leaving FoW as the only out. Also very bad for Elves.
I'm not sure I want to warp my deck to accommodate it, but I think it will also be present in enough quantity to have to be prepared for.
I'm not suggesting it isn't beatable, but it's kind of MUD-like, but bigger and artifact hate is largely useless against it except for hitting their Chalice.
Mom is bad. Chalice on 1 is rough.
Ghostly Prison? Moat? Ensnaring Bridge?
Or back to Imperial Taxes with 3 Magus of the Moon? Not sure that is good enough.
What else are other people preparing for if you are going to the Open?
I am somewhat concerned about the Eldrazi menace. A friend of mine is 10-0 (20-2) at our LGS crushing mostly tier 1 decks in his path - bug delver, miracles, storm, D&T. Of course it's still early days but I think there's cause for concern. Other than what you mention I like exiling stuff via permanents to get around chalice and eschew reshaper's 'dies' clause. So stuff like mangara, fiend hunter and o-ring. I like bridge more than g-prison just for being a hard lock. Not dying to all is dust is nice too, they sometimes run that out of the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
Would we bring in bridge against anything else? Elves? Does it just get rec. saged?
I'm worried about warping our deck to fight this one deck, at least until I know if my gut feeling is correct and it is in fact as strong as I fear.
From what I've seen so far it's just extremely fast out of the gate. Eye of Ugin for free turn 1 mimic(s) is a hell of a play when followed up by turn 2 and 3 heavy hitters like seer and smasher and our early game seems very susceptible to that onslaught. Thalia is mostly inconsequential and we really need equipment active to match them on the battlefield. Mana screwing them while plowing guys early could work while setting up but they also run chalice... Yeah, seems tough, hope I'm exaggerating
Yeah I'll be in Philly, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's Eldrazi's coming out party in legacy. It's a real deck, and imo it's not going to be a favorable match-up for D+T overall. Taxing effects are dead, Mom is dead, they play huge creatures.
Ensnaring Bridge + E tutors isn't the worst idea since it has some utility against Sneak/Reanimator/Omni too. Moat is probably too slow but maybe not. Path to Exile is also good cause your StP's are gonna be taxed.
Imperial Taxes can go up to 4 Magus in the 75 without hurting the deck much. I'd still keep 3 Recruiters.
Probably a good tournament to be playing Painter - pretty much every conceivable sideboard option against Eldrazi is in the main. I have to imagine that ends up like D+T vs Elves, if not worse.
Yeah that eldrazi deck is legit. Running pretty well here in Baltimore and when I tested against it a few times the only main board games I won involved stoneforge for batterskull and getting that equipped on a flyer which needed the time StP bought. If they chalice on 1 it's so tough and feels next to impossible. Lotta local players are working on tuning the deck and will likely be in Philly
Council's Judgment is an necessity because without it, you'll scoop some games to True-Name Nemesis. And other than that, it can double as a Disenchant effect because Null Rod is kind of evil against DnT. And the same goes for Ratchet Bomb and Holy Light, these are meta calls when you have to deal with Elves or decks that rely heavily on token strategies (decks with Young Pyromancer and Mentor). However, these cards are all more flexible than Warping Wail because Warping Wail - being in part a counter - is a reactive card. And this is something that does not fit into the deck's plan imo. It's certainly nice to have in the mirror and very good against Elves, but that's about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Spirit of the Labyrinth is huge, given that all blue DTBs have a Brainstorm-Ponder-backbone (Show and Tell, Storm, Reanimator) or Brainstorm-Jace(-Ancestral Visions; Miracles, Shardless BUG) and even against non-blue matchups it can randomly blank Griselbrand, Sylvan Library, Glimpse of Nature, Elvish Visionary shenanigans, cycling and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
When I was piloting Omnitell, Spirit is the worst card to play against. It's beside Thalia the absolute best drop you can make against High Tide. Dropping it in with Aether Vial in response to a Time Spiral is also GG, although that scenario is quite unlikely as you want to stick it asap in this MU, but it can happen when the opponent is firing off multiple Time Spirals amd your Vial on 2 is untapped.
There really is no matchup where he isn't completely useless (except for the mirror, duh). And he's got a decent body. But I can understand that Legacy as a format is beyond your scope and hence you don't see how good Spirit actually is.
The Problem with Spirit of the labyrinth is that it is most of the time to late... Turn 2 your opponent has fired 1 cantrip on turn one and will brainstorm in response of SPirit of the labyrinth on turn 2... It's good, but not allways good and probably less good than the other cards that are played. It's been tried and not validated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
You also pretty much ignored what I wrote, right? There are decks that rely heavily on digging through their library (Omnitell, SneakShow, Storm, High Tide), so Spirit is good, even if the opponent has played one or two cantrips during the first 2 Turns. Having Spirit usually blanks 1-2 cards that your opponent still has in hand or might topdeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Then there are matchups like Elves in which it shuts off all possible drawengines that you'll fold to instantly (Glimpse, Symbiote + Elvish Visionary).
There are games that I would have never won without it, so it's a stay for me. Oh, and back when I was playing Omnitell, this card was extremely painful to play against and it did cost me a lot of games in total over the period I was on Omnitell.
High Tide? Did you happen to find the last surviving High Tide player on earth recently? Tell them I said hi.
Spirit of the Labyrinth is not a commonly played card in legacy D+T today. That's not an opinion you can disagree with, it's a fact - very few people play it. Maybe very few people play it because nobody understands legacy like you do, or maybe very few people play it because the card was test extensively and people got sick of playing Blade of the Sixth Pride. Here are a few decks that it's bad against: Burn, Jund, D+T, Maverick, Painter, Lands, Dredge, Merfolk, MUD, the new Eldrazi deck.
Legacy has a lot of blue cantrip decks - this is a good g1 card against them, but they are already good matchups. It also has non-blue cantrips decks - this is a terrible card against them, and they are often bad matchups. The only bad matchup that SotL helps with is Elves.
If your local meta is infested with High Tide - most likely related to some weird warping of the time space continuum - yes I highly recommend going overboard with SotL. Play 4. But there's a reason the card hasn't become a core part of the deck for people like me who have managed to escape your High Tide alternate universe and have to play against 2016 era legacy decks.
Of those four decks, Omni is dead, high tide is a joke, sneak and show is already an excellent matchup - and probably won't run 16 cantrips like omni does anyways - and storm can easily be done with their setup by the time Spirit comes down. It can be really nice vs elves (it can be really nice vs all the blue decks too) but won't solve the problem of them casting natural order. Sometimes they can do that without a glimppse or visionary chain first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Look, Spirit has a high ceiling in terms of power level especially together with vial, but it has been disappointing for me most of the time I've played it. Most of the time it seemed to arrive after their second cantrip by which time it's too late to be effective in many games. And that's to say nothing of all the matchups where it's a vanilla 3/1 for 2 that dies to disenchant and reclamation sage.
Legacy is a diverse format and people are always plying their pet decks, and there is this one guy in my area who has got 2 or 3 Candelabras and enjoys to play them, so he's always on High Tide. And the matchup is hard to win without Spirit, similar to Elves, so I'll take my chances.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Well, I randomly browsed through these lists http://www.tcdecks.net/archetype.php...20Taxes&page=1 and quite a few of them play Spirit, most notably these ones:Quote:
Spirit of the Labyrinth is not a commonly played card in legacy D+T today. That's not an opinion you can disagree with, it's a fact - very few people play it.
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19140&iddeck=145493
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19305&iddeck=146788
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19140&iddeck=145492
Christian and I also split Top2 a couple of weeks ago in a small tournament, playing the identical 75, I played against BUG Delver, Miracles and BURG Delver, and Spirit was good against all of them (even more against BURG than against BUG because they also need their long-term cantrips to fix their mana once you shut off DRS, that deck just can't work without it). And yeah, it was very good against Miracles as well.
And well, these are all pro-players and certainly also have done some testing. And most likely concluded that Spirit is a solid card.
This list is meaningless as it contains matchups that are either bad or good in general, independant from whether you are running Spirit or not. You can't win the bad ones by cutting Spirit anyway and on the other way around, Spirit does not make the favorable ones worse.Quote:
Maybe very few people play it because nobody understands legacy like you do, or maybe very few people play it because the card was test extensively and people got sick of playing Blade of the Sixth Pride. Here are a few decks that it's bad against: Burn, Jund, D+T, Maverick, Painter, Lands, Dredge, Merfolk, MUD, the new Eldrazi deck.
Actually most of the blue matchups are grindy as hell, and allowing the opponent to do whatever they like (i.e. cast cantrips and sculpt their hands and find their random bomb such as Toxic Deluge to screw you over) can turn the match into their favor.Quote:
Legacy has a lot of blue cantrip decks - this is a good g1 card against them, but they are already good matchups. It also has non-blue cantrips decks - this is a terrible card against them, and they are often bad matchups. The only bad matchup that SotL helps with is Elves.
Spirit seems to be as randomly good (won me a game versus Reanimator where I Vialed it in to shut down Griselbrand) as it is randomly bad (I've been 2-1'ed before off Wear//Tear hitting Spirit and Equipment before). My conclusion is that it's fine, but I wouldn't ever run more than 2 really (I usually just run 1).
Spirit makes almost all of those match-ups worse because you're not playing a stronger card in its place. There is no 'independent of whether you are running Spirit or not'.
The Brad Nelson/Todd Anderson deck was played in a small 16 person event where they could expect 100% of the field to be T1 decks. That's exactly the meta you'd want to play the card in. The chances of them facing any of the decks I listed above was very small, outside of perhaps Lands.
It feels like you highly overvalue your personal experience staring at Candelabras and the extensive knowledge of the format you gained from casting Show and Tell into Omniscience. It is perfectly reasonable to play SotL if you expect to face 100% blue decks like you did in your last tournament. Most people don't have that luxury. Legacy has an extremely broad meta and you are almost certain to face multiple non-blue decks in a large tournament. Get back to us once you've tested against the new Eldrazi deck a few times.
I’m not overly worried about overdoing the sideboard for Eldrazi because we don’t have much in the side as it is.
I do not think this is as bad as Elves. It is still (kind of) a fair deck with little deck manipulation, and susceptible to poor draws because they are, in the end, an overpowered Timmy deck. Yes, it can have a nut starting hand, but it can’t combo off into a win. Sometimes they don’t have a turn 1 or turn 2 creature, which isn’t our problem, most games. Equipment is huge, but sadly their removal is well-suited to killing Stoneforge Mystic. Mana denial is huge, keeping in mind they also run Wasteland because, why not? But if they are trying to Wasteland us, it is slowing them down. Do NOT waste Ancient Tomb unless it completely takes them off mana. They have to place big dummies, so let them kill themselves. It helps us race. Try to avoid x/1 creatures post board. Ethersworn Canonist is way better than Thalia, Guardian of thraben because they want to play more than one spell, especially creatures, each turn. Slow them down and take away Warping Wail as removal. Sorceries aren’t very good, but Mangara and some equipment are good.
Thalia and Mom come out games 2 and 3. 2 Canonist (slow them down), 2 Mangara (everything removal), O-Ring/Fiend hunter (general creature removal), Manriki-Gusari (they run Jitte), Ratchet Bomb (on 0 for Chalice, Endless One) come in. Keep 1 Mom for Dismember.
Council’s Judgment is actively mediocre against a deck that can and does run 4 Warping Wail and it is very expensive. Oblivion Ring is actually better and the Flickerwisp tricks are relevant. You might want to review that part of the Primer.
Moat is too slow.
Ensnaring Bridge stops us from attacking, and we really need to get through them before they get Endbringer online. If you haven’t died from that card yet, it is very, very annoying since it untaps on every upkeep.
Cataclysm hurts us more than them because their lone creature is probably better than ours and they run several artifacts, most importantly Jitte and Revoker, which also hurt us. Plus they often are stuck with an Eye of Ugin in hand, which they can now play.
Armageddon is strictly worse that Cataclysm.
Someone suggested Retribution of the Meek, which is okay. I wish I knew what other deck we used it against…
Ratchet Bomb on 0 destroys Chalice of the Void and Endless One, but not much else aside from us.
Path to Exile probably doesn’t get them a land, I don’t think they run basics in the Legacy build, which is why Blood Moon early is very good against them. However, Chalice on 1 is still a problem.
Mangara of Corondor dies to Warping Wail and is slow, but it is repeatable removal that ignores Reality Smasher’s self-protection. It also gets Chalice off the board and exiles lands.
Ghostly Prison seems okay, but it probably only slows them to one attack a turn rather than stopping them.
OMG, they’re gonna make me run Godsend, aren’t they? If the equip was one less, I would say this card is bonkers against them when equipped to Serra Avenger.
Thinking something like this for Philadelphia:
Lands 23
11 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
Creatures 26
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Mirran Crusader
Spells 11
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Ring or Fiend Hunter
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari or Godsend (I’m not kidding…)
If players are expecting Eldrazi, then based on how the deck plays out…
- Miracles, Elves, Storm and possibly Sneak n Show are significantly worse thanks to a combination of Cavern, Chalice, Wail, and sheer speed.
- If they run Relic of Progenitus, which I believe is a 4-of in their sideboard, with the Chalices, Reanimator and Dredge are also in a lot of trouble.
- Burn seems soft, thanks to Chalice. Without Chalice, maybe. Eidolon hurts burn more than Eldrazi. After turn 1, they probably can’t attack with creatures and have to send burn to the face, but Eldrazi reliance on Ancient Tomb helps Burn out, so they can put themselves within kill range quickly. They also can’t afford to stumble against Burn.
- It’s pretty bad for BUG, Grixis, and 4 Color and RUG Delver and Shardless BUG because their removal looks pretty bad and their creatures don’t match up to 5/5 Haste, Trample on turns 2/3. Plus chalice on 1 is, once again, super effective.
- Jund seems to have a game that goes from mediocre to outright bad. Hurting themselves with Bob and mostly irrelevant removal.
- Stoneblade and Deathblade look mediocre because they can’t race and trample goes right through TNN, but a TNN with equipment is good if Eldrazi stumble.
- Infect has to not allow Eldrazi to resolve Chalice. If they do, then Eldrazi have removal for their creatures and can race. Since Infect uses it’s counterspells for tempo, not to stop creatures from being played, Cavern doesn’t help Eldrazi here.
- Merfolk has an average match in the absence of Islandwalk. It does have TNN and Phantasmal image, plus Meerow Reejerey to tap blockers, but if they don’t hit those, they can’t stonewall, either. A couple of lords turn a TNN with Jitte into a nightmare. 45/55 or 50/50.
- Dragon Stompy, a deck that does not impress me at all, should benefit from turn 1 Blood Moon/ Magus of the Moon and be a huge pain for Eldrazi using their own tricks. Plus 3 Ensnaring Bridge. It’s basically a prison deck with a way to finish.
- MUD is a toss up. Probably strong? Blightsteel Colossus and Wurmcoil Engine look real good, but not as fast. The longer the game goes, the better MUD’s chances.
- Lands seems strong against them because they play on the wrong angles for Eldrazi.
- Painter should demolish them. I’m expecting a lot of Painter’s Servant.
- I have no sense of how Goblins does. Can they go wide fast enough?
I expect decks with Blood Moon, which is fine for us. Thanks for wasting your slots against us.
If I had to make a guess, if people are hedging against being surprised like the Modern PT was, then I expect the following strategies:
- Merfolk from those trying to race with evasion
- Painter from combo
- MUD as a kind of direct frontal attack (sheer power versus sheer power)
- Lands from control
The biggest losers are probably many of the most popular decks in the meta: Miracles, Elves, Storm, Reanimator, Dredge, Delver, Burn, Jund, Show and Tell. Still, I expect combo decks trying to race them for the turn 2 kill, or at least getting out something that they can’t cope with (Griselbrand, Emrakul). Plus, people will play what they have and Storm, Reanimator and Sneak n Show are 21% of the meta and rising.
If this is right, we are better positioned than the biggest losers, maybe close to Merfolk or Dragon Stompy, but not better than 50/50. Mostly that is because Chalice on 0 or 1 does not ruin us, but a lot of decks fold to a deck that can do that and then kill you 2-4 turns later with big, aggressive creatures. That combination of lock-out plus aggression is very effective.
Thoughts? Alternative assessments? Philadelphia is going to be interesting. Or terrible.
Bonus Question: Modern Pro Tour even more boring than the 50th Super Bowl? Vote now!
I don't think it's as bad as Elves either, this deck can still fold to mana denial and doesn't have card filtering. It also just has opening hands that probably can't be beat. Even the SB cards can be Thought-Knotted.
Godsend isn't the worst, though I think spending 6 mana (or 7 via SfM) + target will be too slow. What about Basilisk Collar? On a creature with First Strike it's equivalent to Godsend, but it also helps not lose the life race. It could also come in for more matchups. Meekstone seems better than Retribution of the Meek. I guess both Collar and Meekstone aren't great against Chalice-on-1. I guess 2 mana is the sweet spot.
I played a few games against the Eldrazi deck last night with both Goblins and R/W Taxes and I'm pleasantly surprised to tell you that you should all stop worrying. I didn't change anything to either deck, I never saw a Magus of the Moon from either deck and it didn't matter because as is the usual case, DnT plays all these cards that are just incidentally good against every other deck in Legacy. Flickerwisp kills Endless One's whilst clocking, Revoker deals with their Sharpshooter, Stoneforge -> Jitte/Batterskull is backbreaking for them and Wasteland/Port is more effective than you think it would be. Even Thalia having first strike is a big deal against a deck with a lot of X/1s. Yes small sample size, all decklists are fairly untuned, whatever. A fairly nutty draw from that deck is still beatable because Batterskull is an absurd card.
As for Goblins, they just sit around chump blocking for the first few times before doing the fairly standard out of nowhere Warchief into Ringleader into Piledriver kill. Tomb activations do half the work for you.
Tldr, don't worry about it.
Just another anecdote but a friend borrowed my deck tonight and 2-0'd Eldrazi. Magus made for pretty easy games.
Red splash D&T will have a tough time losing to Eldrazi for that reason alone. I have not seen it being a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
2 things:
1) On the subject of spirit (as someone who routinely has main decked 2 for a long time until now) I agree that it's a card that's great and way better than people are giving it credit for. Don't act like it's not an option or absurd to suggest. That being said I don't think it is necessary by any means or an unbeatable card that's swings a matchup completely in our favor. It's certainly good and really helps a ton against elves (my games without it have been much less close than the ones I had with it) but it's mediocre vs blue midrange decks since it can't afford to attack and die in combat and is essentially just an enchantment at that point, and is a little late vs combo sometimes.
2) I don't think the sky is felling when I reference the eldrazi deck. All I am saying is I feel like we are a dog in the matchup, particularly game 1. That was just from my experience but it's certainly possible I am mistaken.
I agree Imperial Taxes should have a strong match-up against Eldrazi. It may also be that BUG Delver using a lot of hand destruction and Decay for Chalice is the best Delver option, and that seems to benefit Imperial Taxes as well. If I am right that Lands has a very strong game against them, Imperial is also good against Lands.
If my sense of how Eldrazi impacts the meta is right, it may actually significantly reduce the popularity of some of our worse match-ups. Unlike Cruise/Dig, I don't think it warps the meta because it doesn't make an existing deck or set of decks overbearing, nor is it itself without adequate answers, unlike in Modern, unless it has a severe negative impact on Aggro Combo decks, which it could. I think it will shake-up the meta, however, because it introduces a viable, powerful mid-range beatdown deck (unlike Jund, which is a control-oriented, "pure" mid-range deck) and that is potentially favorable for us.
I don't mind if this deck shrinks the presence of Jund and Elves, and forces Miracles to adapt in ways that maybe make it weaker to us (IMO, they have to go back to Batterskull/Entreat the Angels because Monastery Mentor is pretty soft to them.) I'm also okay if it hurts Burn so I don't have to sideboard for it.
WW will have to adjust more than Imperial, but it is possible.