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I've just finished some testing against grixis sneak and tell running 4 thoughtseize main. It has made it a lot more difficult to beat. Has anyone else encountered this version of sneak and tell?
With regards to bridge main I am a big believer that they should be main, they provide us with free wins against several decks, allow us time to dig for answers/threats and if nothing else you can use them as counter bait.
I play bridge in the main. Almost every deck in the meta aside from ANT and other storm-ish decks are weak to it, and your other lock pieces shut off their answers to it (usually decay). Blood Moon especially makes decay very hard to cast. The bridge/walker heavy version of this deck plays a lot more like vintage MUD in that your goal is to simply completely lock your opponent out of playing any cards rather than temporarily lock them out buying you time to get damage in and kill them. It's a very different philosophy which before was rather weak to miracles as they ran basics and plenty of answers to our lock pieces that were easy to cast under a moon. The ladder now consists of mostly deathrite decks, which are very weak to blood moon, fairly weak to bridge, and usually fold if both are in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ
Gpt report:
5 rounds went 2-3, it was one of those days.
Round 1: Burn
Game 1: got chalice on 1, get killed with eidolon and grim lavamancer.
Game 2: I get chalice on 2, stabilise on 1 and win due to him just drawing lands for 5 turns.
Game 3: chalice on 1 again and I get beat with eidolons, drew 3 bridges (I sided the 4th out).
Round 2: storm
Game 1: he plays basic island and I chose to rabblemaster instead of chalice for 1. He ad nauseams down to 1 and wins.
Game 2: Get trinisphere T1 but struggle on 2 lands for several turns while he gets 3, decays the trinisphere and wins.
Round 3: white prison
Game 1: rabblemaster T1 gets there. I told him it was a risky hand and he says that's an auto win against his deck.
Game 2: lock the game out with damping matrix and beat him with chandra uptick and a 1/1 sin prodder.
Round 4: esper deathblade
Game 1: kills me with value.
Game 2: I lock him out and kill him with my creatures.
Game 3: True-Name Nemesis is a very interactive card and rabblemaster got him to about 40 life.
Round 5 : Bye (with the way I've been playing I was expecting to lose to it haha)
Overall it just wasn't my day at all. I took several wrong lines, sideboarded terribly and got totally wrecked by bad draws.
3 cards stood out to me (not in a good way):
Koth, is a win more card and does nothing when behind. Cut him for a chandra.
Ensnaring bridge, 4 are too many so I've cut 1 and moved another to the sideboard. Replacements are 2 trinispheres main. For the meta in my LGS 4 seems right (lots of storm, elves, etc). I am sad about cutting bridge, may go up to 3.
Goblin rabblemaster, against decks with lifelink he is worse than useless but in other games he's totally backbreaking. May go down to 2/3, chrome mox is 1 replacement (just need to decide whether it's rabblemaster or sin prodder that gets cut).
Spellskite is a possible cut but need to test it more (didn't see it at all).
I think this version is one of the bigger steps forward. Now that you have Fiery Confluence, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Quicksmith Rebel, to a lesser degree Sin Prodder and even more exotic choices like Jaya Ballard, Task Mage and Exquisite Firecraft you are much more a control deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ
One of the problems that has always plagued this deck is that the lock pieces were good, but the followup creatures were just plain bad. since Goblin Rabblemaster this has partly changed, but all the other guys in the deck are still not really worth their cardboard. Magus of the Moon is a necessary evil, but a Gray Ogre is nothing to write home about.
With Firy Confluence you want to play less creatures and with Chandra you finally have something else to play that is worth it. Ensnaring Bridge has always been a great sideboard card and now you can legitimately play it main as it wins some of your worst matchups (BR Reanimator, Sneak & Show) pre-sideboard. With stuff like Pia and Kiran Nalaar and Quicksmith Rebel you have good pingers to kill the smaller creatures and to sit behind a bridge and shoot down your opponent.
I think you cannot really compare this to what the deck is with Goblin Rabblemaster as it also works entirely differently strategically. If you have creatures you will not want Bridge or Fiery Confluence. You want more aggressive creatures and no Quicksmith Rebel.
TLDR: If you like Stompy then play the Rabblemaster version - if you like prison then play the Bridge version.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hofzge
Thank you for that explanation. Where I see an issue is, none of the lock pieces are enough to take most opponents out of the game. And the deck is not able to deal much damage under a Bridge. In a decent timeframe, anyway. So the enemy does have time to find answers. If they are able to develop their board in the meantime, you die as soon as they remove Bridge. I understand that many decks cannot deal with Bridge game one. But there are many decks which playing a Bridge can hurt you worse than them in game one. For instance, having Bridge instead of Rabblemaster against Storm, or Infect completely swings the matchup in the wrong direction. It's not that I don't see the value. It's that I think it's a far more narrow card main than merits inclusion. The whole reason for a SB is to bring in cards to shore up your bad matchups. And at the same time, it forces you to run fragile, overcosted cards like Pia and Rebel to justify running it.
Fiery Confluence and aggressive creatures are not mutually exclusive. One of the options with FC is '6 damage to opponent'.Quote:
Originally Posted by hofzge
And I've never ever seen a Stompy list play Exquisite Firecraft... ever.
I've been brewing since the meta shakeup, but nothing I'm fully happy with yet.
But my general idea is sweepers like Rolling Earthquake, Bonfire of the Damned, and Fiery Confluence, along with a threat base of Hanweir Watchkeep, Qal Sisma Behemoth, and Smuggler's Copter.
My bad I meant Collective Defiance...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
I run both bridge and rabblemaster, they both have their ups and downs (usually against opposite archetypes) but you can keep the othere in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by hofzge
With rabblemaster it can be too slow for storm.
A card I'm testing in the side is everlasting torment. It's useful against lifegain, TNN, bigger creatures, etc.
Could someone post the best goblins version?Quote:
Originally Posted by hofzge
Thanks
Sound like a good idea. Please let us know what testing reveals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysdai
Does Wither work for TNN?
702.77a. Wither is a static ability. Damage dealt to a creature by a source with wither isn't marked on that creature. Rather, it causes that many -1/-1 counters to be put on that creature. See rule 119.3.
It's still damage right so TNN is immune?
TNN has protection from Yu.Quote:
Originally Posted by harbingerofthevoid
Protection prevents all damage from the source protected from.
Torment says damage can't be prevented.
Still can't target or block. But combat damage and sweepers apply.
aww snap! I read Everlasting Torment over and over and just didn't let the "can't be prevented" sink in.
Haven't tested torment either but it seems bad to take a turn off to play this at any point in the game. Maybe I'm not looking at it from the right angle. Without having searched if such a creature exists, I think this effect would have a better impact were it on a creature. However once on the table it does let fiery confluence kill tnn.
Aside question, have people had problems with lifegain? If so, what and is it worth the sideboard space ?
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The beauty is that it allows us to kill TNN, make griselbrand/batterskull/jitte worse and allows our small creatures and sweepers to wittle down the opponent's big creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
There are quite a few decks that I can envision it being good against (haven't had a chance to test it yet).
I've had issues with lifegain especially when I have rabblemaster out and then they cast the life linker.
It doesn't exist on a creature except for a few that damage that they deal can't be prevented. Too narrow. If you're more concerned about casting the card, Leyline is very close to this. And can still be hard cast in this deck. But you lose the Wither clause. Which makes a narrow SB card even more so. I see this more as a 2-of, boarded in against Blade and TNN decks just to supplement our primary strategy. Making sure we don't get blown out by TNN or Skull. Mainly the U/W/x SFM-TNN decks and DnT/Maverick. Since it deals with Mom as well. And it would come in vs. Infect as well, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I would also see it coming in against sneak and show, jund, UGx delver varients and maybe reanimator.Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ
It hits griselbrand hard, limits deathrite, improves P&K's shock ability against tarmogoyfs and other big creatures, etc.
I cant imagine having the slots vs Delver or Reanimator. But yes vs Sneak, though it's extremely narrow there. Deathrite vs. 8 Moons never gains life. I don't run Pia, but sure it would be good there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysdai
Of course, all of this is academic unless it's tested in said circumstances.
No worries! Makes more sense now. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by hofzge
I don't think you are wrong here. Usually the best card in the deck against True-Name Nemesis is Blood Moon. Against all but Merfolk (which hardly occupies enough meta-share to worry about), TNN decks play a singleton Island.*Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I don't think there's a consensus on this yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by fluuu
But once again, I refer to TC Decks:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22231&iddeck=171434
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21623&iddeck=166056
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21608&iddeck=165868
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21383&iddeck=163901
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21025&iddeck=160745
*Edit - I stand corrected! Looks like most Blade lists play two Islands. But I think my point still stands.
Just thought I'd leave this here. Big thanks to Julian23 for crunching the numbers!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f71fd601de.jpg
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