Printable View
I would like to hit the dislike button if there is one, due to the fact that you did not reveal your updated deck list. Based on your old list, the MD Blood Moon is pretty useless, especially your meta is full of mono-color Vial decks. Regardless which versions, running less than 2 Entreat is just not a good idea. Celestial Purge is weak, might as well run CoP:Red or Sphere of Law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimp
The updated list is detailed in a previous blog post which is linked to at the start of the tournament report. I forget if I posted it here or not, but here it is now anyway:Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
http://captainforgetfulness.blogspot...-miracles.html
Basically the E-Tutors and Pyroclasms swap places and the Blood Moon became an extra Clique. The Celestial Purge in the side is a concession to Lilliana of the Veil which the deck can't really deal with once it's resolved.
I've considered a second Entreat but I find casting Entreat more difficult than usual since my manabase is missing the U/W fetches. To hit the double white I'd often end up fetching a Tundra which is something I try to avoid doing given the large Wasteland presence in my meta. If I had U/W fetches I would absolutely find room for a second Entreat.
It's possible that the deck needs to focus a bit harder on something in particular, either on the anti-dudes plan or the enchantment based control plan. At the moment I can't really tell as I don't get to play the deck much outside of some solo testing and these monthly events.
I'm currently trying a slightly different spin on miracles. Bit of a throw back really. I've been trying to fit lingering souls into the main as a way to both protect jace and pressure opposing walkers. This where I'm currently at
3 Vendilion clique
3 lingering souls
2 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
4 sdt
4 counterbalance
3 force of will
2 spell pierce
3 jace
3 terminus
2 entreat
4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
1 marsh flats
3 island
1 plains
4 tundra
2 underground sea
2 karakas
1 creeping tar pit
Sb:
2 meddling mage
2 ethersworn canonist
3 rest in peace
3 thoughtseize
1 force of will
2 disenchant
2 open
I messed around with Lingering Souls in Miracles for awhile (day 2'd Denver with UWb Lingering Miracles), but ended up tossing it out in favor of Punishing Fires. It does what you want Souls to do: battle planeswalkers and stall versus tribal, but better. This is especially true against the decks with Jitte which can make your own Lingering Souls embarrassing. It's nice against a couple of decks and has good synergy with Humility but for most matchups you are better off running PFires or the legendary creature suite.
I was always happy with Creeping Tar Pit and discard sideboard out of the black splash, though.
If you want more tokens to pressure your opponent and his walkers, run more Entreats! The Stoneblade/Miracle Hybrids just doesn't make sense if you pair creatures with Terminus'
tl;dr - I like yer style, dude, but your curve seems bad for Counterbalance flips
While I like the idea of a lot of these things individually, I think the mana costs associated with having them all together is questionable. My main concern is not casting, but flipping to counterbalance - given that you're playing 4 CBs, I assume that flipping to CB is something you want to do frequently. Your curve is:Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
0: 17
1: 14
2: 6
3: 8
4: 3
5: 5
6: 3
My main concern is the lack of 2s. To give an idea how important that number is, I ran some quick stats on the most recent SCG top 8. Not including dredge (because I'm only counting decks that play magic) - On average, decks played 13.29 / 17.86 2 drops main / side (drops to 12.29 / 16.43 if you don't count the uncounterable Abrubt Decay)
I do really like V Clique and Souls at 3 right now with Show and Tell so rampant, but I really feel something has to give to get your 2 count a bit higher.
How is L.Souls an out for Show&Tell? If you want to have an edge here, run Venser
I had previously tried a punishing fires build and it was fun because it was a complete board control deck. I may go back to it at some point, but for now, I'm trying to make the black splash work. The main problem that I had with the fires build was that I didnt have a good way to assassinate opposing jaces. Fires would basically mean they weren't ticking up, but I usually couldn't fire twice a turn to start ticking him down that well. The tar pit has been kinna amazing though. Kind of a ninja planeswalker assassin versus bug. The main thing is that souls represents a pretty legitimate clock, while fires does 1 dmg for 3 mana.
As for the creatures/tokens+terminus. I've been playing around with the deck and the stoneforge mystics are just kinna there to find the batterskull once you get to the late game. I'm not sure whether theyre completely necessary at this point; I find myself shuffling them away turn 2-5 in favor of more removal. However, the souls have been performing well. The main thing is that it just does what it did in the old esperblade lists. It stalls like nothing else. Either they extend further onto the board, or you basically get 2-3 turns of blocking to find an answer.
Stalling into answers? Then why just not start to run more answers first? It's not like you can't run counterspell or more Entreat/Terminus.
Why you think Batterskull is a better lategame option than an EoT Entreat?
They cast Show and Tell. You reveal lingering souls to your counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
(C'mon man, my entire post was about how much things cost and how flipping to counterbalance is important)
Entreat is also cmc 3, kills Walker, stalls against creatures, but in addition to all that you can create pressure yourself and finish games in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by thecrav
I suppose I could cut the pierces for just good ol' counterspells. Not completely sure on that. However, I should note that the counterbalance really serves as a chalice on 0 and 1. The main reason I have it as a 4 of is because its great at countering ancestral visions. Its also pretty good at shutting down combo's cantrips and their enablers (high tide, show and tell, etc). That being said, I do like a counterbalance lock as much as the next person (as long as I'm not being locked out) so I might tweak the numbers a lil bit. I'm also considering cutting all of the forces md just to see how it does without them.
Edit:
The problem with entreat and all miracle cards in general is that they are powerful but clunky as all hell. Using entreat to the pressure walkers is fine, but then you run into the draws where you have 2x miracles in hand a lot more often. Entreat is definitely kind of the big-daddy token maker, but it takes a bit of setup and is far more vulnerable to taxing counters. Lingering souls doesn't suffer from the same problem--you just kind of cast it when you have 3 open mana. Even if it gets countered, it comes back for round 2.
Yes, Miracles can be clunky, but understand my concern, if your plan is to continuously tap-out for SFM, Jace and Lingering Souls in that archtype to jumpblock attackers and pressure opposing Walkers before playing more "removal" in form of Clique/Venser/Terminus/Entreat
Well the sfm has basically been batterskull 2-3 for when you already have the game wrapped up or need someway to gain life. I don't really ever tap out turn 2 for the sfm. The souls are also played pretty reactively. When I need blockers or require a way to pressure the opponent, I'll play it out. Otherwise, it'll just sort of be there for when I have 4 mana so I can hold pierce up. That being said, I'm considering cutting the sfm's for 2x counterspells and 1x Moat md.
Entreat sometimes gets put on duty pressuring Planeswalkers sure, but really I think they can usually just afford to dome. Celestial Colonnade (tech courtesy of sauce) is another alternative to Creeping Tar Pit that is more on-color and can easily double as defense as well as Planeswalker assassinating... although I'm still skeptical about CiPT lands in this deck.
Also, Moat doesn't seem bad right now, but then again I wouldn't want to get caught thinking I was safe only to have it Golgari Charmed out from under me EoT.
If you run both lingering soul and stoneblade, you're just lying to yourself, you are actually playing a horrible version of Esper Stoneblade, disguising as Miracle. You're already on that path, you might as well take the last step: add black and drop red.
There's little synergy between Terminus and lingering soul, why not just drop Terminus and be all the Esper Stoneblade can be?
Again, there're 4 versions of Miracles: punishing fire, snapcaster, legend-angel, and rip-helm. Miracle-blade has fallen and consequently become rare, since it's not even that good.
Hi! I've playing this deck for quite a while on Magic Online, because i want to find the best possible Controldeck (I'm also playing with BUGstill and BUGloam).
Finally i've assembled the deck in real life and i really enjoy playing it and i really want Miracle to be the best Controldeck ( All BUG Control variants are losing to Burn, and i hate Burn), but i just can't stop the voice in my head that whispers that U/W Miracle is not better than BUG Control. I hope some of you guys can make that voice go away :) ^^
I'm playing the Oarsman list (with some minor changes not worth mentioning), because i don't like the HelmCombo version because it's clunky and i have to rage a lot when i play it.
I also think that Vendilion Clique is absolutely necessary to pressure an early Liliana. T2 Liliana or T3 Liliana on the draw is devastating and i always have Nightmares of Liliana when i play Miracle (Liliana is not a big threat against my BUG Control decks). Are there other SB options besides Celestial Purge and Pithing Needle? Or do you recommend some specific strategies against a T2/T3 Liliana i maybe did not recognize?
I also played this deck a lot against a really good and experienced D&T pilot on Magic Online. The matchup is tough but i have the feeling it's negative, which is quite suprising for me..... because can we really lose against Creature decks?
One thing the many games against D&T made me realize is that this deck can be really powerful with an active SDT, but without it sometimes feels underpowered and clunky. One option would be to reduce the number of Miracle cards, but i think playing less than two Entreat the Angels is not acceptable in a wide and open metagame. So many decks fair decks can't beat this card.
So i thought about adding 1-2 Ponders. Do you think cutting 1 Venser and 1 Counterbalance is worth the loss when you gain more consistency? I could also cut a land but i really don't want to waste Cantrips to dig for lands.
Any comment(s) would be highly appreciated.
Flash creatures are probably your best option against Liliana. Also, I've liked being able to Enlighten Tutor into a miser Leyline of Sanctity, which shuts down most of Liliana's relevant abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
While I wouldn't say I've played against any exceptional Death and Taxes players, I've played against the deck a number of times and don't find it terribly difficult. It is a lot about mana development and timing your Terminus or Entreat. They aren't a very fast deck and don't have any reach, so don't worry about taking some beats in order to set up the best Miracle you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
The Miracle cards are probably the best cards in the deck, right behind Top. I would and have been more inclined to add ways to find Top (ETutor) rather than cutting Miracles. A single Ponder isn't a bad idea either, but you don't want to clunk up your hands too much with random cantrips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
D&T is a pretty hard matchup without the punishing engine or some number of engineered explosives. The main problem is that their whole deck pretty much negates miracle's strategies. Its very common to see a mom+revoker on top, which basically neuters this deck since the deck is basically left with 3 terminus to deal with the board state (which become much harder to find without top).
D&T also ignores a large swath of the cards in this deck: pierce, counterbalance, counterspell, and fow if drawn too late. That's about 10 cards that are essentially dead.
From playing against my friend's D&T deck, the best card was basically engineered explosives and disenchant. EE on 1 was a great way to usually sweep a mom+vial and usually got me ahead enough to take control. Disenchant was just another answer to their vial and equipment which are both essential to their strategy. Another option would be engineered plague--it helps both of the terrible creature matchups: d&t and goblins.
Hey there, I've noticed oarsman on MTGO's been doing great in the dailies. Anyone got his stream channel name on Twitch?
I'd love to get his 2 cents in with Thassa.