[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

We have xantid swarm in our sideboard here due to abrupt decay or at least I pack 4 copies currently. Sure we don't have silence but 5 color is stupid with a fetch dual manabase w/out city of brass and gemstone mine. Also, let's say they force our chain of vapor on their leyline. What exactly stops us from going off the next turn with ad nauseam and/or PiF to draw into another chain of vapor, bounce it, then tendrils them out? If they have double counter backup as well as leyline their hand is going to get wrecked in the process giving us time to rebuild to go off again.

The odds of them having leyline + FoW is very low. They can't always have it at all unless you're just getting lucksacked out, and we've all been there before.

Diminishing returns has almost no advantages over time spiral in a wishboard in ANT. We will generally have 2+ lands out by the time we cast returns as we are not casting it turn 1. Exiling 10 cards is pretty bad as well as not running chrome mox to facilitate us going off post dreturns with more consistency. And when time spiral has 3 lands in play it becomes timetwister that exiles itself as well as floating 3 of different colors essentially, which is pretty damn good.

The only reason this deck is called ANT is because that's what people started calling it several years ago when ad nauseam was first introduced into the deck and people saw how good it was. It isn't the name that matters. People know what you're talking about when you say ANT. If you say flaming vault they raise eyebrows. Storm in flames would do the same. Ideally the deck would be named after some cereal like combo decks of old (golden grahamans, fruity pebbles, trix, etc. etc.) but unfortunately that isn't happening.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

The only reason this deck is called ANT is because that's what people started calling it several years ago when ad nauseam was first introduced into the deck and people saw how good it was. It isn't the name that matters.

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None of my opponents/friends/bystanders had any trouble realizing what deck do I talk about when I was using the name ANT. Heck, even the more-EDH-than-Legacy guys did knew that the deck's namesake is tertiary engine. Name doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Jeff

You draw for the turn, and have the following hand.

Polluted Delta
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Duress
Infernal Tutor
Brainstorm

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you obviously go for it starting with BS

Why on earth would you want to change the decks name when 98.4 % of the deck remains the same. The reason a deck has a name is so it can easily be identified and catagorized by people.

Hi, there is a guide for side-in side-out that I can read?

thanks :)

So I've been looking into Intuition as another "storm" generator. I think it pairs nicely with PiF combo. Grab PiF, 2 Rituals, this nets you 3 ritual effects as they won't normally give you the PiF obviously. costing 3 is my only concern. It won't grab you the thing you need the most unless you are already grabbing PiF plus what you are needing, but I find often that looking for 3x LED is a good play, especially EOT on Opponent's turn. I know it's almost like it's competing for slots with LDV, but I think it may fulfil a need that LDV won't, and that is card in hand, + cards in 'yard for combo. Thoughts (Also, there are Leyline issues)?

-ABC

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

So I've been looking into Intuition as another "storm" generator. I think it pairs nicely with PiF combo. Grab PiF, 2 Rituals, this nets you 3 ritual effects as they won't normally give you the PiF obviously. costing 3 is my only concern. It won't grab you the thing you need the most unless you are already grabbing PiF plus what you are needing, but I find often that looking for 3x LED is a good play, especially EOT on Opponent's turn. I know it's almost like it's competing for slots with LDV, but I think it may fulfil a need that LDV won't, and that is card in hand, + cards in 'yard for combo. Thoughts (Also, there are Leyline issues)?

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Intuition actually strikes me as interesting. I'm not really sure it's needed, but I could see it potentially competing with Grim Tutor. Grabbing 2 Dark Rituals and a PiF seems really strong, but I suppose I'd have to think more about it. (And yes, Leyline of Sanctity blocks Intuition)

Intuition is poor man's Grim Tutor similarly to how LDV is poor man's Demonic Tutor. And as we all know how amazing is LDV, this says a lot about Intuition... :smile:
The only trouble (and also the only reason why I never tried it although I got a Jap. one) is that three mana in a Wasteland.format is quite a lot, esp. if they have DRS out. It also loses part of its strength postboard, when you need to fight all kinds of Pyroblasts, RiP, Thalia, Cage, Extraction, Leyline, etc.
I'd be interested in anyone's testing results!

I'm glad you guys like arguing about the name so much, it sure doesn't take up any space.

also you are still killing via tendrils/ goblins most of the time.

never understood why each deck with a differnet card had ot have a differnet name when they all win the same general way

I just call the deck I play storm and leave it at that.

pretty fucking easy.

I guess you could also call your RUG Delver deck "Blue Tempo" and leave it at that.

This is The Source Legacy forums. If there were ever a place to talk about things like what to name a Storm variant, it's here.

I just called the deck I played storm and left it at that. It was amazing to watch the people's reaction, as one third of them was pretty annoyed that I'm lazy to specify, the other third was intimidated because they've thought I'm so skilled that I don't even need to care about the kind of storm I played, the remaining third didn't even notice.

I realize ppl tend to use Swarms against my RUG, is it because the mind games "you must keep your bolts in, but they're bad", or is it just a new fashion? I find it... strange. Not bad, but strange.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

I just called the deck I played storm and left it at that. It was amazing to watch the people's reaction, as one third of them was pretty annoyed that I'm lazy to specify, the other third was intimidated because they've thought I'm so skilled that I don't even need to care about the kind of storm I played, the remaining third didn't even notice.

I realize ppl tend to use Swarms against my RUG, is it because the mind games "you must keep your bolts in, but they're bad", or is it just a new fashion? I find it... strange. Not bad, but strange.

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Boarding in and fetching a Trop against RUG is very bad, and keeping their Bolts live as essential counterspells is awful. They probably won't have 6+ cards to board in, so they will likely be stuck with some Bolts regardless of whether or not you board in Swarms. Boarding in Swarms makes their Wastelands and Bolts great cards, and those cards are otherwise pretty irrelevant.

That said, I love Swarms in the side for Show and Tell decks; just don't bring them in against Delver tempo...

Intuition is not good enough, biggest problems - it's off color and too expensive in your combo turn, do not tutor ToA directly... It's great in UR/W storm, full of redundant cards not Ant

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

Boarding in and fetching a Trop against RUG is very bad, and keeping their Bolts live as essential counterspells is awful. They probably won't have 6+ cards to board in, so they will likely be stuck with some Bolts regardless of whether or not you board in Swarms. Boarding in Swarms makes their Wastelands and Bolts great cards, and those cards are otherwise pretty irrelevant.

That said, I love Swarms in the side for Show and Tell decks; just don't bring them in against Delver tempo...

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I disagree, fetching basics doctrine is wrong, Thresh guys board out some bolts usually, which is also wrong but they do, still it's Fow or die if they don't have it, and buys you a turn if they do + swarm just fot therapy flashback if completely fine if you know about the bolt; reality - they overestimate their aggro-control role board in flusterstorms pyroblasts and gravehate and die to it :)

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Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

Thresh guys board out some bolts usually ...

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A well experience RUG player will not take out all of his lightning bolt against an AnT or TES, for it is their only removal for our BUG if it isn't countered.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

Boarding in and fetching a Trop against RUG is very bad, and keeping their Bolts live as essential counterspells is awful. They probably won't have 6+ cards to board in, so they will likely be stuck with some Bolts regardless of whether or not you board in Swarms. Boarding in Swarms makes their Wastelands and Bolts great cards, and those cards are otherwise pretty irrelevant.

That said, I love Swarms in the side for Show and Tell decks; just don't bring them in against Delver tempo...

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I like Swarms against most decks with Islands tbh. I'd agree that against Tempo decks they aren't as good as they are against something like mono blue omni or perhaps something like miracles. The thing is they can still be an absolute bomb. I'm continuously surprised at how many tempo players are caught off guard by the little insect. They sit there with their boarded in Flusterstorm and 2x Spell Pierce in hand and start to feel that cold sweat when they see the swarm :) But sure, if they know what they're doing they won't board out all (if any) of their bolts and that's a real issue.

The way I see it I have room for 2-3 dedicated Island-fighting sideboard slots. I play Burning Wish ANT so my sideboard has natural limits. Those 2-3 slots I like to fill with either Xantid Swarm or Carpet of Flowers. I need to have a chance to consistently see them if I board them in, hence I have to choose between which card to run and which to leave out. Can't have a mix. Seeing how there is a lot of mono blue omni in my local meta, and how I consider swarm to be massively outclassing carpet in that matchup, as well as being decent-to-very-good against Tempo decks I'm going with swarms for now. If the meta shifts I'll adjust.

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Originally Posted by paeng4983

A well experience RUG player will not take out all of his lightning bolt against an AnT or TES, for it is their only removal for our BUG if it isn't countered.

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They'll probably still have 2-3 Bolts, but I doubt it'll be because Bolt is that good. Tormod's Crypt, Flusterstorm, and Pyroblast are all pretty good against ANT and usually run as a 2-ofs. Occasionally they'll run a Clique which is really solid. Forked Bolt is easily bad and can come out. Nimble Mongoose is pretty slow, so they'd have to decide if they'd rather cut some Gooses or Bolts. I thought the prevailing wisdom was that ANT shouldn't be boarding Swarms in against Tempo anyways?

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Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

I disagree, fetching basics doctrine is wrong, Thresh guys board out some bolts usually, which is also wrong but they do, still it's Fow or die if they don't have it, and buys you a turn if they do + swarm just fot therapy flashback if completely fine if you know about the bolt; reality - they overestimate their aggro-control role board in flusterstorms pyroblasts and gravehate and die to it :)

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That's pretty true, remember my R2 against Mat yesterday. Man, it's so annoying, I can't defeat the guy for the life of me. Funny how he ended at two life and then started the combo... :frown:
Also, I think he's the one that doesn't even bother sideboarding against Thresh Can, as I never seen any Carpet or w/e, imho he just adds one discard and is done with it.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

That's pretty true, remember my R2 against Mat yesterday. Man, it's so annoying, I can't defeat the guy for the life of me. Funny how he ended at two life and then started the combo... :frown:
Also, I think he's the one that doesn't even bother sideboarding against Thresh Can, as I never seen any Carpet or w/e, imho he just adds one discard and is done with it.

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That is at least the plan with TES. Shifting an Infernal Tutor with Cabal Therapy, making Tutor wishable.

I do not like Swarms against Tempo and on average it will be bad.

Carpet of Flowers will be good in the matchup but I think the Swarms are more needed in this Meta due to SnT Variants...so in Ant I either board in the 8th discard or the Grinding Station Config (+2 Tendrils +1 PiF and some Carpets -Shavecut), depenidng on my current SB :)

I guess this Matchup will be bad for ANT while learning...but becomes even as both become used to their decks.

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Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

Intuition is not good enough, biggest problems - it's off color and too expensive in your combo turn, do not tutor ToA directly... It's great in UR/W storm, full of redundant cards not Ant



I disagree, fetching basics doctrine is wrong, Thresh guys board out some bolts usually, which is also wrong but they do, still it's Fow or die if they don't have it, and buys you a turn if they do + swarm just fot therapy flashback if completely fine if you know about the bolt; reality - they overestimate their aggro-control role board in flusterstorms pyroblasts and gravehate and die to it :)

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I'm not sure what the "fetching basics doctrine" is, but I can't possibly see why you should fetch nonbasics against RUG Delver... The games I lose are usually because of their mana denial. I'm 9-1 against RUG with ANT in sanctioned tournaments, and my only SBing is a single Inquisition of Kozilek, and I almost ALWAYS fetch basics against them. IMO RUG Delver is a very good matchup for this Storm deck if you are not relying on Ad Nauseam to win.

@Dzra: Yes, the mainstream thought is that Xantid Swarms are not that impressive against tempo decks like RUG Delver.

Initially testing against Postboard OmniTell i was losing 2-7. I re-read Carsten's article a couple times, and then goldfished for a while trying to win by turn 4 if my "opponent" started with a leyline in play and a force in their hand. Back at the testing table a week later i was able to turn it around 7-2 in my favour.

-3 Duress
-1 Island
-1 Preordain
-1 Gitaxian Probe
+3 Xantid Swarm
+3 Chain of Vapor

I like to cut the duress and leave in the therapies. This way if you draw your xantid a turn late it could still be useful to flashback. Also, duress with an untargetable opponent is bad news for trying to get hellbent; You can therapy yourself.

Maindeck:
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Preordain
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic island
1 Tropical Island
SB:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Dread of Night
2 Pithing Needle
1 Empty The Warrens

Delver Note:
Against RUG i just swap Ad Nauseam for Empty The Warrens. The maindeck is close to optimal to play that matchup, never wanted to take up sideboard space for carpets.

Nice job, OmniTell is a tough matchup to play, but it is a fine matchup once you get the hang of it. My only recommendation for people playing against OmniTell is to try 1 Echoing Truth in your SB so that you have a bullet for the situations where they open on 2+ Leylines.

Empty makes a huge difference against RUG. I actually run mine main over Ad Nauseam, and it is very good against them.

Won today a bom trial:)
Match ups:
2:1 against Junk Rock
1:2 against merfolk, should win this game because it isnt a very hard match up.
1:2 against Uwr miracle, in g2 i couldnt find a decay
2:0 against Uwr miracle.
2:0 against hypergenesis

Now i was just 5th, but a friend dropped for me;))

Top 4

2:1 against junk rock
2:1 Final against Delverstill brew

Congrats :) Great Finish.

Thanks men:)

sry today not bUrg. ANT is my pet deck too;)

But i feel those are the best choices for me to Play it at the BoM:)

I top 8 in one local legacy league today :

r1 2-1 uwr tempo
r2 2-0 reanimator
r3 1-2 Junk
r4 2-0 Omniscence
r5 2-1 Omniscence
r6 id


Top 8 vs rug: I lost g1 because I have forgetten one card of my sideboard in my deck deck and when I saw it I called the judge and game lost:cry:, g2 I have won throught stifles, and dazes making a ton of mana with rituals, and past in flames, and I got flooded in g3, I will be more careful checking my sideboard and my maindeck after finishing rounds, I promise it :tongue:.

Ant is very solid, and I have played some games these days vs omnishow and I dont think that Omnishow is a very bad pairing for us, we are faster than them and with our disruption if they are going to win first we can rip show and tell, or if we are going to be faster than them we can discard their counters.

Thats too Bad, because Since Theros its allowed to Play 61/14...
Bad Judge you got there.

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Originally Posted by Asgar

Thats too Bad, because Since Theros its allowed to Play 61/14...
Bad Judge you got there.

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Not in game 1

So, a big congrats to Peter Tragos for making the top-8 :)

I was just curious about the inclusion of Swan Song for the sideboard. It seems to me that counter spells as protection is a pretty big non-bo with LED. I Wonder if he brought them to hedge against other faster combo decks? I only saw one match of his on camera which was against Painter's Stone where he boarded at least some of them in. It doesn't counter any of that deck's two combo pieces and as such only served the purpose of countering REBs/Pyroblasts. I guess it can be quite awesome post Past in Flames with a few of these in the yard, but by then aren't we usually just winning anyways and wouldn't a duress/therapy be just as good?

Anyway, not having a go at Peter Tragos, just was a bit confused by seeing this particular inclusion.

I don't dare to dismiss SB counters in ANT anymore if you play the combo mirror and can't just simply try to race ANT anymore just to overextend into a Flusterstorm.

Hi, guys. I'm still playing with burning wishes and I'm not gonna take them out. Versatility of the deck that they provide in different situations is very important to me. Just took Force of Will by winning the local tournament. My matches were:
R1 EsperBlade L0-2
R2 Imperial Painter w2-0
R3 GW post-ramp w2-0
R4 UR delver-pyromancer w2-1
top4 TES w2-1
Finals EsperBlade w2-0

My list for those, who are interested:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Burning Wish

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Sideboard:
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Reverent Silence
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chain Lightning
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Grim Tutor
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

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Originally Posted by door

Hi, guys. I'm still playing with burning wishes and I'm not gonna take them out. Versatility of the deck that they provide in different situations is very important to me. Just took Force of Will by winning the local tournament. My matches were:
R1 EsperBlade L0-2
R2 Imperial Painter w2-0
R3 GW post-ramp w2-0
R4 UR delver-pyromancer w2-1
top4 TES w2-1
Finals EsperBlade w2-0

My list for those, who are interested:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Burning Wish

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Sideboard:
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Reverent Silence
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chain Lightning
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Grim Tutor
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

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Grats on your win door :) I too play with Burning Wishes and wouldn't like to play without them. There are a couple of really skillful ANT pilots at my LGS and they also play with Burning Wish. It might be a Euro vs US thing, but over here I think it's more common to see ANT with Burning Wish in the vein of Timo Schünemann's GP winning deck. I am a little surprised to not see any Burning Wish ANT decks at SCG like ever. It seems Tendrils combo there is always either TES a la Bryant Cook or UBr ANT with no Burning Wish and the Gemstone Mine mana base a la Adam Prosak. At least here in Copenhagen Burning Wish ANT seems to be how most of us prefer it.

It's not that I can't see the merits of running the Prosak version. It's just that I don't like what I perceive to be a lack of flexibility - that Burning Wish otherwise affords - in that deck.

It probably comes down to personal preference more than anything else.

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

It probably comes down to personal preference more than anything else.

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This is very true. I think the core of the deck is what really makes it strong. The rest is more of a meta call/ personal preference. For instance have played UB Ant with 2 grim tutor, UBw Ant with 7 chant effects and UBr burning wish Ant all with the same succes.
At this moment I also prefer the wishes because although your hand can get clustered with tutors from time to time they can get you out of some very tricky situations and higher the chance of opponents to make misplays against you.

Congrats on the win! I have a couple questions about your list.

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Originally Posted by door

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

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Why the Bloodstained and the Verdant Catacombs? I have almost the exact same mana base, except I run a full set of Scalding Tarns. Scalding Tarn fetches everything but basic Swamp, and I've found that I don't often need :b: except on the combo turn.

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Originally Posted by door

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

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Why IoK over Duress here? Snagging FoW seems highly relevant and none of your MUs seem to gain too much from IoK.

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Originally Posted by door

Sideboard:
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Reverent Silence
1 Thoughtseize
1 Chain Lightning
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Grim Tutor
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

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It seems like you have a toooon of permanent removal in your SB (2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Reverent Silence, 2 Chain of Vapor, and 1 Echoing Truth). Reverent Silence is a great tutor target and 2-3 Abrupt Decay is pretty standard. I can see bringing in a Chain of Vapor if you anticipate Leylines. The second Chain of Vapor and the Echoing Truth definitely seem clunky though. Do you find yourself needing all of that? And what is the Chain Lightening for? I don't dislike it exactly, but it seems like if you are gunning for a way to kill Phyrexian Revoker or nab a little extra damage then Grapeshot would just be better.

What is the best sideboard card for ant to play against reanimator?

I like Karakas there. Most People Play without terastodon nowadays and everything nonlegendary, like tridant and inkwell gives you 2 to 3 turns, to end the Game, what should ne enaugh.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Why IoK over Duress here? Snagging FoW seems highly relevant and none of your MUs seem to gain too much from IoK.

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Thanks for your questions. I play IoK over Duress mainly because Duress does not discard hatebears, which are very difficult to answer in game 1. ANT has a lower % of t1 kills compared to TES, so it's relevant. Also playing Thoughtseize over IoK in maindeck would be too painfull against delver decks. Speaking about FoW, often I'm able to discard the only pitch for FoW with IoK, in other cases it's possible to drag it out. And finally, I still have 4 Cabal Therapies and 2 Burning Wishes for Thoughtseize. So overall, it's ok for me.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

Why the Bloodstained and the Verdant Catacombs? I have almost the exact same mana base, except I run a full set of Scalding Tarns. Scalding Tarn fetches everything but basic Swamp, and I've found that I don't often need :b: except on the combo turn.

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The deck has 7 discard spells, which I try to play ASAP in g1 to get information on the opponent's deck, so getting swamp on turn 1-2 is at least as much relevant for me as an island, also I need that swamp later for comboing off. Also that amount of discrard spells sometimes allows to just terminate the whole opponent's hand, playing only discard turn after turn. That's not the last strategy, as it often gives enough time to find other lands and live. Playing 4 Scalding Tarns I would be able to fetch Swamp with only 4 deltas, which is too low for me. With the current set of Fetchlands I have 6 out of 8, which bring me basic Swamp and 6 out of 8 which bring me basic Island. Also only 1 fetch does not bring me Tropical island, and all of them can bring black, blue and red mana via dual lands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dzra

It seems like you have a toooon of permanent removal in your SB (2 Abrupt Decay, 1 Reverent Silence, 2 Chain of Vapor, and 1 Echoing Truth). Reverent Silence is a great tutor target and 2-3 Abrupt Decay is pretty standard. I can see bringing in a Chain of Vapor if you anticipate Leylines. The second Chain of Vapor and the Echoing Truth definitely seem clunky though. Do you find yourself needing all of that? And what is the Chain Lightening for? I don't dislike it exactly, but it seems like if you are gunning for a way to kill Phyrexian Revoker or nab a little extra damage then Grapeshot would just be better.

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I prefer to have at least 3 answers in SB to the most annoying hate. The reasoning behind all those cards is something like that:
Counterbalance: 2 Abrupt Decay, Reverent Silence, Echoing Truth
Chalice of the Void at one: 2 Decays, 1 Echoing Truth
Leyline of Sanctity: Reverent Silence (via Burning Wish), Echoing Truth, 2 Chain of Vapor
Hatebears: Virtue's Ruin, Chain Lightning, 2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Chain of Vapor
Unknown hate (including Notion Thief): Echoing Truth, 2 Chain of Vapor
Also Chain Lightning proved to be a great Wish target in general, being able to finish off opponent in addition to killing some creatures/plainswalkers. I don't like grapeshot for it's manacost. You need to have as much as 4 mana to play it after Burning Wish in the same turn and it will hit only for 2, also it's a lot harder with Thalia/Thorn of Amethyst in play.
Maybe 2 Chain of Vapors is indeed too much, as far as I have virtually 2 copies of Reverent Silence via Burning Wish. I'll have to try changing 1 Chain of Vapor for ... Any ideas? I'm actually not sure, what I really need now. In my thoughts it may be 1 Chrome Mox against combo decks or 1 Meltdown as a Burning Wish target in game 1 against Chalice decks. Also Pithing Needle as a candidate is not so bad, as I have few answers for Jund right now.

Hey, guys, just wanted to share the list I played at SCG Milwaukee this past weekend with you. I went 4-3 before dropping, so nothing impressive, but I'm very happy with the 75.

Tendrils of Whatever The Source is Calling it These Days

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ad Nauseum
1 Lim-Dul's Vault

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island

SB:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Massacre
3 Dread of Night
1 Bayou

From memory:

Round 1 I played against Aggro(ish) Loam, Jeff Hoogland if you're familiar with his build. I punted game 1 by making black instead of red off an LED. He had Green Sun Zenith'd for a maindeck Gaddock Teeg, so I needed triple red to Burning Wish into Pyroclasm and followup with Past in Flames. I felt pretty stupid making such a rookie mistake after running the deck for so long, especially since I showed him both the Burning Wish and the Pryoclasm. Game 2 was easier, as I could blow him out before Teeg came online, and Therapy'd away his turn 1 Chalice for 1. Game 3 I made a slightly subtler punt, but still a punt that cost me the game and match. I Thoughtseized turn 1 to strip another Teeg from his hand, leaving him with Knight of the Reliquary, Devastating Dreams, Loam, and lands. I was under no pressure and could deal with a top-decked Chalice, so I was dragging the game out a few turns just playing my lands and finding a Duress to make sure he hadn't drawn a Mindbreak Trap or something. Eventually he casts Dreams to Armageddon the board, leaving him with a very, very large Knight, and me with 0 lands in play. I untapped, played some Lotus Petals and went for the tutor chain anyway, ending up with Tendrils in hand, and BBB floating. If I'd kept a land, I'd have gotten it. Oh well. Dude played it well, I didn't, and that's how Legacy should be.

Round 2 was against Omnitell, and the games were pretty typical for the matchup. Game 1 I crippled him with Thoughtseize into Therapy, and machine-gunned him on the third turn. Game 2 he opened with Leyline and killed me on the second turn. Game 3 he again opened with Leyline, but I was able to Xantid Swarm early to fight through a hand full of counters, then Vault into Burning Wish for 20 goblin tokens. He was banking too heavily on the Leyline, and couldn't find his combo piece after 3 draw steps, 2 Ponders, and a Preordain.

Round 3 was against Stiflenaught, of all things. Game 1 he opened with sol land, Grim Monolith, Torpor Orb, Dreadnaught. I opened with Ritual, Ritual, Ad Naus, machine gun. I mistook him for a MUD-style budget build, and boarded incorrectly for game 2. I opened with Therapy for Stifle, whiffed, and saw Force, Force, Daze, blue card, Dreadnaught, Mask, and died horribly. Game 3 I stripped his hand of anything relevant, but was having a hard time finding a final Duress-effect to grab the last Mindbreak Trap in his hand and go off safely, but he top-decked (sequentially) Chalice (set at 1), Chalice (set at 2), and Dreadnaught to complement the mask he had in play. The turn before I died, I cast Chain of Vapor on my own LED into his Chalice, which he let resolve for some reason, and I copied it on his Chalice at 1. I was one storm short of hitting him for the full 20.

Round 4 was pretty easy. I opened both games with Thoughtseize to take away Sneak Attack, and fired off a lethal Tendrils on the 2nd and 3rd turns. I was lucky enough to nail his Chalice, Blood Moon, and Trinisphere before they could come into play, so we didn't even have a real game. We were signing our match slip before any of the matches near us were done with game 1.

Round 5 was the pseudo-mirror. He was playing a more TnT style version with 4 Burning Wish and 4 Infernal main, which (I think) gave him a slight advantage due to his higher percentage of top-decking a tutor after the inevitable Duress, Therapy, Thoughtseize battle. I kept a stable turn 3 hand in game 1, and knew almost certainly that he was on Tendrils when he opened with Delta, Underground Sea, Preordain. Based on this, I chose to play as if I were a RUG player with a slow hand by going Scalding Tarn into Brainstorm, Misty into Tropical Island into Ponder. He told me after game 1 that he had the kill in hand, but delayed it a turn to find protection because he would've folded to Daze or Force. Game 2 was more of what I expected, as we Therapy'd the shit out of each other before he ripped the Ad Naus on turn 5 to go off. He mulliganed game 3, and I kept a hand with Therapy into a turn 2 kill, which was too much for him to overcome.

Round 6 was a fun matchup against U/R Delver. I opened with Probe into Therapy to take his Force, and combo'd on turn 3 with Duress backup. Game two was much rougher, as he opened with Delver, Brainstorm in upkeep to flip, and had too much permission to fight through before I fell to a barrage of Bolts and bug beatdowns. Game 3 he agonized quite a bit over his keep, and the game ended with me comboing through his hand of double Force, active Tormod's Crypt, Stifle, Daze, and Flusterstorm while he had two Mountains in play.

Game 1 of round 7 was pretty heart-breaking, as I stripped my RUG Delver opponent's hand and cast Ad Naus to go off unmolested with an extremely high percentage to win. I whiffed harder than I have ever whiffed before, going through about 30 cards between my cantrips (casting 4 Ponders and 3 Brainstorms), tutors, and Ad Naus, and couldn't find any of the 7 cards that would've let me kill him. Game 2 I opened with Probe to see a Mongoose, Force, Force, Stifle, Flusterstorm, Tropical Island. That's life, I guess.


Massive thank-you's to everyone who tested and advocated LDV in this build - the card is incredibly elegant and powerful in ANT, and I don't think I'll ever play without one in the main ever again. The singleton Burning Wish was a bit clunky because of the mana, but the only time it tripped me up all day was when I broke LED for the wrong color. Only three copies of Therapy is probably wrong, and I'm thinking of cutting one of the Preordains to go up to a total of 7 Duress-effects in the main. Preordain is definitely the most expendable card in the list, and gets boarded out pretty often.

I know it looks weird, but the manabase had been working out pretty well for me in testing, and didn't disappoint me in any of my seven matches on Sunday. Even the sore-thumb Gemstone Mine was great, producing every color and helping me hit threshold for Cabal Rits if played properly.

The board is pretty iffy depending on the metagame, but I think the only change I want to make right now is to just completely cut the Bayou. Abrupt Decay is still a necessary evil for Chalice (and would've been for Counterbalance, which was prevalent), but the changes to the manabase make it reasonably castable without bringing in the 16th land. The only hate bear I saw all day was Gaddock Teeg, so I was glad I had Wish in the main and Pyroclasm in the board, but I saw enough Thalias running around that I'll be keeping the 3 Dreads and 1 Massacre for the time being. Empty was, as always, the best card in the sideboard, loved the third Duress, don't leave home without Iggy, etc, but I wanted a second Chain so bad that I was kicking myself at times. I fucking love Xantid Swarm when it works, I just wish it couldn't be Bolted in the RUG matchup, which is when I want it the most.

Anyway, thanks for reading, thanks again for all the shared ANT info over the years, and hope to see some of you in DC!

Oh, and feel free to holla atcha boy if you have Japanese Infernal Tutors you want to get rid of. They've proven to be impossible to find for a reasonable price.

@gregtron:

Thanks a bunch for sharing your experiences. Sounds like a really tough beat in round seven. Alas, whiffing on Ad Nauseam does happen, and more frequently than a lot of people seem to think.

On a more general note I'd like to ask people here how they view playing against Deathrite Shaman? I still consider myself a relative novice to Tendrils combo even though I've been playing it for probably about six months on and off. I am getting quite comfortable playing against (and around) counter magic. I feel quite capable against the tempo matchups to a point where I feel it's a pretty even 50/50 matchup against most builds (UWR seems worse than regular RUG as they have access to meddling mages plus can be more grave-hate orientated).

I am, however, quite uncomfortable playing against more discard orientated decks, which all incidentally run Deathrite Shaman. I'm not sure, maybe it's partly because I get psyched out by people always telling me "oh, they are such good matchups for you (NicFit, Jund etc)". I feel like I should be winning this and then when things get tight I make mistakes. But it's also in part because I have a hard time getting around the combination of discard and Deathrite Shaman. If it's against a junk or dark maverick deck where they also pack hatebears I feel I only have a chance if they brick on mulligans or I get a turbo start with a turn one (or two if on the play) kill which doesn't happen that often.

Is it just a case of me having to get in more practice against these match ups in order to get more comfy playing around the little elf? I mean, notwithstanding them having the straight nuts of turn one Deathrite into turn two hymn + thoughtseize or something else like that I feel like it should be a surmountable matchup.

I guess I'm looking for some tips or words of advice from more experienced players. How do you adjust your game plan when your opponent (on the play) goes Bayou -> Deathrite?

It might be that I need to adjust my list. I'm considering putting back a Diminishing Returns, for starters which seems at it's strongest against discard strategies. For reference, this is my current list:

4x LED
4x Petal
1x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Burning Wish
3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
1x Lim-Dûl's Vault
1x Tendrils
1x Past in Flames
1x Ad Nauseam

2x U. Sea
1x Volcanic
1x Badlands
1x Tropical
2x Island
1x Swamp
7x Fetch

Sideboard:
3x Swarm
3x A. Decay
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Duress
1x Grim Tutor
1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Reverent Silence

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

@gregtron:

Thanks a bunch for sharing your experiences. Sounds like a really tough beat in round seven. Alas, whiffing on Ad Nauseam does happen, and more frequently than a lot of people seem to think.

On a more general note I'd like to ask people here how they view playing against Deathrite Shaman? I still consider myself a relative novice to Tendrils combo even though I've been playing it for probably about six months on and off. I am getting quite comfortable playing against (and around) counter magic. I feel quite capable against the tempo matchups to a point where I feel it's a pretty even 50/50 matchup against most builds (UWR seems worse than regular RUG as they have access to meddling mages plus can be more grave-hate orientated).

I am, however, quite uncomfortable playing against more discard orientated decks, which all incidentally run Deathrite Shaman. I'm not sure, maybe it's partly because I get psyched out by people always telling me "oh, they are such good matchups for you (NicFit, Jund etc)". I feel like I should be winning this and then when things get tight I make mistakes. But it's also in part because I have a hard time getting around the combination of discard and Deathrite Shaman. If it's against a junk or dark maverick deck where they also pack hatebears I feel I only have a chance if they brick on mulligans or I get a turbo start with a turn one (or two if on the play) kill which doesn't happen that often.

Is it just a case of me having to get in more practice against these match ups in order to get more comfy playing around the little elf? I mean, notwithstanding them having the straight nuts of turn one Deathrite into turn two hymn + thoughtseize or something else like that I feel like it should be a surmountable matchup.

I guess I'm looking for some tips or words of advice from more experienced players. How do you adjust your game plan when your opponent (on the play) goes Bayou -> Deathrite?

It might be that I need to adjust my list. I'm considering putting back a Diminishing Returns, for starters which seems at it's strongest against discard strategies. For reference, this is my current list:

4x LED
4x Petal
1x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Burning Wish
3x Duress
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
1x Lim-Dûl's Vault
1x Tendrils
1x Past in Flames
1x Ad Nauseam

2x U. Sea
1x Volcanic
1x Badlands
1x Tropical
2x Island
1x Swamp
7x Fetch

Sideboard:
3x Swarm
3x A. Decay
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Duress
1x Grim Tutor
1x Past in Flames
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Reverent Silence

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A few pages back, BDP, Mindlash and I had a heated discussion about the topic. As long as you can fill your GY faster than DRS can eat it and you don't forget to Infernal->infernal->PIF to blank the elf in your combo turn, everythings fine.

If you already run Wish, you may consider 2 Pyroclasm in the SB to fight DRS and Hatebears instead of R.Silence and V.Ruin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

A few pages back, BDP, Mindlash and I had a heated discussion about the topic. As long as you can fill your GY faster than DRS can eat it and you don't forget to Infernal->infernal->PIF to blank the elf in your combo turn, everythings fine.

If you already run Wish, you may consider 2 Pyroclasm in the SB to fight DRS and Hatebears instead of R.Silence and V.Ruin

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Thanks Lemnear, I'll go back and have a gander at your discussion. I run the Reverent Silence because there are a couple of Mono blue Omnitell decks running around at my LGS and it's quite awesome at winning through their leylines. In terms of Pyroclasm, man I dunno... maybe I should give it a go. It seems much worse against white hatebears because of Mother of Runes, but obviously much better against Jund type decks.

Can't hedge against everything I guess! :)