Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
I saw a list over on TC decks that adjusted the creature base to drop Delver and included Nimble Mongoose AND Tombstalker. To make this work, there was also 4 Thought Scour. I have not personally tested this idea, but the list did place highly in a 30-man tournament.
Mongoose would certainly help out a TON against StP.dec
I agree that Delver is pretty weak without Burn or enough counterspells to protect him.
Also, I updated the sideboard guide to include Winter Orb: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=#post620813
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Razorwynd
What have peoples post-board configurations been for the Sneak and Show matchup when they have 4 Leyline of Sanctity post board?
I am almost 100% to play 1 of 4 rounds against Sneak and Show each week. I am heavily considering playing 3 ensnaring bridge to gain some additional % points. Has anyone else found any sideboards cards to significantly improve the post board matchup without being so narrow?
Leyline isn't actually that scary on average. If they don't open with it, the card is the deadest draw ever. If they board in four Leylines, are they going to mull an otherwise OK hand in hopes of seeing Leyline? Show and Tell achieves its consistency through cantrips. Adding Leylines lowers the probability of getting great hands because it means they need to mull to it, and their strategy is already predicated on mulling to their combo pieces or cantrips.
Ensnaring Bridge is fine, but it clashes fairly hard with Team America's game plan. If they have a Griselbrand in play, for instance, and you have an Ensnaring Bridge, you're not going to be able to get much value attacking. Your basic plan at that point is going to be draining them with Deathrite Shaman. If they have bounce spells, it's possible they would just draw to the bounce spell, bounce the Bridge and then regain life with Griselbrand, but there are a lot of ways that situation could play out.
I like Surgical Extraction a lot in this matchup and any other combo deck running Brainstorm. If you hit a combo piece with discard, fwooosh! Those pieces are gone. If they Brainstorm in response, you eat their Brainstorms and the combo pieces get shuffled in.
If you know your SNT opponent is running Leylines and you feel you need to deal with them, your options are more counterspells and/or removal for Leyline.
Good counterspells: Envelop, Spell Pierce.
Answers to Leyline:
0cc: Reverent Silence
1cc: Nature's Claim, Chain of Vapor
2cc: Golgari Charm, Echoing Truth
3cc: Krosan Grip, Maelstrom Pulse
I currently run Krosan Grips, but most of these others would be viable. It's just a decision of speed vs. flexibility. If you know you're going to face that much SNT, I see nothing wrong with running narrow answers.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Longtime reader, first time poster here. Been playing Legacy for a few years now, this deck specifically since January, RUG before that, Merfolk before that. I play once per week at a local shop that will get anywhere between 8 and 30 players per event, with a pretty broad variety of archetypes (though there's a lot of Esper lately, and that's something I'd like to talk about). Been playing a fairly standard mainboard (20 land, Hymns, 2 Tombstalker, 1 Library, 1 Dismember). My board was:
2x Winter Orb
3x Duress
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Flusterstorm
1x Arcane Laboratory
2x Disfigure
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Life from the Loam
1x Umezawa's Jitte
First, quick report from memory of this past week. Four round tournament:
1. High Tide (Candles) 2-0: G1 I resolve a quick threat then cast 3x hymn. At least two of those resolve and I kill him before he recovers. Board: Remove 4x Decay 1x Dismember, bring in 3x Duress 1x Flusterstorm 1x Arcane Lab (this probably should not be in the board, it's super narrow, but I wanted to try having discard, counters, and permanent-based hate). G2 I also have a quick threat and 3x Force to go with 2x Daze and the pressure forces him to go try and go off into them. He wasn't able to cantrip into counters in either game, one game he wishes for a Pact of Negation at some point. This is a game I wish I kept better notes on; it seemed unnaturally easy, usually I have a hard time vs. High Tide and the pilot here is a pretty good player who managers to win or at least place consistently.
2. BUG Control (No Standstill, No Agent, Innocent Bloods, at least two Loam) 2-0: G1 he's on the play, has a dual land and passes. I waste. Turn two he has a dual and passes, I have the second wasteland and he brainstorms in response, but misses. I kill him before he makes his next land drop. Don't remember how I boarded, I knew what he was on from watching him between rounds though, so I'm sure Decay and Dismember came out again. G2 Goes longer, he winds up getting Waste/Loam going at some point, but I wind up resolving 2 Deathrites, eating his Loam, and getting a Loam of my own going. Deathrite, love that guy.
3. Esper 1-1-1: G1 I had the turn two Sylvan Library. I use it to find all the disruption I need, drawing at least three extra cards off of it. Eventually he's just beating down with a SFM and no hand but I still haven't gotten a threat down. He draws into the Swords for my first threat or two, but the next one gets there. This game went pretty long however. This week I'm trying Winter Orb instead of Sinkhole, so Board: remove 2x Force 2x Daze 1x Dismember 1x Decay, add 2x Orb 2x Pulse 1x Jitte 1x Loam. I might have removed additional counters for Duress. G2 I get Orb down by turn three or so. This was where my unfamiliarity with the card hurt me: I'd spent my first two turns digging, and didn't have a threat on the board. He had the SFM the following turn, and I needed to spend removal on it to stop Batterskull from coming down, and by the time I had a threat he had found a Path/Sword, and had cheap answers for my threats while beating me down with Snapcasters and Souls tokens. Board: bring out the remaining Forces to bring back the Dazes because I'm on the play. G3 is similar(early orb, him having removal for my guys), except I rip a Pulse to clear his board of Souls tokens a few minutes before turns. He has some number of SFM and a Batterskull down vs. my Tombstalker when turns expire. Worst feeling here was being under Orb, unable to cantrip to find an answer since spending mana there would prevent me from having enough mana for my answer; but this is probably more of a problem with how I was playing/planning with the card. Not gonna lie, it basically boils down to I had some spicy new toys to play with and wanted to slam them as soon as possible. Seems pretty wrong now.
4. Esper 0-2: G1 Winds up with him empty-handed beating down with a SFM. I dig into threats while he digs into STP, and SFM backed by a Snapcaster or some Souls tokens gets there eventually. Board: Same as the previous match. G2 I resolve an early Winter Orb but wind up in a similar situation to the previous match where I have to dig but can't afford to spend the mana and have to topdeck instead. He resolves a Geist at some point and it's over.
My fourth round opponent on Esper took 1st, RUG took 2nd, my first round opponent on High Tide took 3rd, and I got 4th (there were four 2-0-1 players going into the final round). Overall, I love this deck, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on playing with Winter Orb or planning a better point in the game to resolve it. Namely, I'd like to know your experience with the decision between waiting to topdeck the correct answer (hopefully) vs. cantripping to make sure it's there/coming but not being able to cast it ASAP. Alternatively, I wonder if it would be better to just keep in more of the free countermagic if we're on the Orb plan. That provides a better answer to STP, and I think that's one of the big problems with operating under Orb (losing our 2 mana threats to their one mana answer, then waiting to get mana back up again to disrupt whatever they're doing).
That's a lot of text. I also wanted to talk more about the matchup vs. High Tide, but I'm out of time right now. Thanks in advance for any feedback.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
I could not decide if Delver or Stifle was the worst card in the deck, but it definitely feels like it's down to those two. Both are inconsistent for different reasons. However, when Stifle was good, it was trading a card for time, and that time is much better used to attack the opponent with multiple types of disruption to make the game unplayable more than Delver was good doing 6-9 damage while still allowing the opponent to play Magic. As I posted before, I cut delver from my list. Whether that decision is correct is totally up for debate though.
I'm also not sure how delver is universally considered correct over something like Vendilion Clique. Even though there is a 2 mana difference, 1 toughness difference, and a legendary rule, Clique is still a much more reliable tempo-efficient body that doubles as disruption and seamlessly changes roles as the deck needs them. Having creatures that are time walks is something that this deck very much enjoys. It is worth the extra mana? Well, I'm not sure but I also don't think that the choice is automatic.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Enric
@BennBeckmann:
Congratulations on your Top 8!
I want to talk about Winter Orb. One of the good points about Sinkhole for me was that it was good agains combo in general, witch Winter Orb isn't. Is not that important enough? Just asking.
Thank you! I Think our Combo Matchup ist very good and with additional Discard, Counters and Clique from the board, there should be no need to add further components.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
After testing winter orb, I can say that it is good versus Esper Control, but lacking versus miracles, where it is much harder to have a threat stick under an orb. If you manage to keep a flipped Delver, Stalker or Goyf through an Orb next turn you'll probably win--though STP and Miracle Terminus are cmc 1.
It's true, Winter Orb has the least effect vs. Miracles. It still disturbes them heavily if they want to keep using their Top. Sinkhole might be better here, but it still requires 4 Slots and ist still doesn't justify not plying Orbs, as its way better against Jund and Esper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
StoneColdEffy
Did you ever feel like you wanted/needed a 3rd Winter Orb? Also how is your Aggro MU without any removal in SB?
No I wouldn't add a third Winter Orb, as there is no cumulative effect and you sometimes just have more important effects in that slot which need to be played more urgently, like Hymn or Decay.
I don't think there is a relevant Aggro Matchup right now, Zoo is gone and against Goblins I have Plagues. Goblins are not that frightening anyway, as Tombstalker can just beat them down before they reach a critical mass of Goblins.
What really worries me is the reappearance of Merfolk. I haven't played against it but I think it wouldn't look good for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GtF
Congrats on your top 8 Hove. I played the deck with the Sinkholes in the sideboard this past weekend at scg milwaukee, ending up top 32, losing in round 8 of 9 to the mirror match. Here's my current thoughts:
Sinkhole is great but takes up too many sideboard slots. Playing less than 4 doesn't seem reasonable. In a format as diverse as legacy, this is a big problem. It's passable against combo sometimes since the cards you are taking out for it are even worse, but still not optimal. If winter orb can be as effective while only taking up 2 spots in the SB, this seems like a big gain. I wish I'd had the time to test it before the scg but oh well. Looks like they worked out.
Delver is definitely the worst card in the deck. The problem is, you still need the additional threats. And they do a lot of little things well, like be blue for force of will (extremely important) and sometimes draw removal from your other creatures. The fact that Delver only costs one is quite important as well, since this deck is still a tempo based deck. Even if it's not a great play, it can be enough to overwhelm the opponent. For that reason, I like it better than every alternative I can think of. I could certainly see cutting down to 3 though. You almost always want to play deathrite first anyway.
Deathrite and Abrupt Decay are really amazing. Also deathrite makes playing Hymn to Tourach correct over Thoughtseize. You now have a better chance of being able to Hymn without losing a lot of tempo, which why I always waffled before on which was better.
Against combo I like the idea of boarding some additional counterspells instead of discard, in case they go with the Leyline of Sanctity plan. I like spell pierce because of its versatility, but I could see envelop or even flusterstorm being alright.
I completely agree with you! As long as there is no better alternative, we should play Delver of Secrets. I've been thinking about Gitaxian Probe in that Slot, though, because it feeds Tombstalker, we like free spells, it's blue and you might get very important information (misdirection for hymn for example). I think Spell Pierce is still the best call in SB, I bring it in against so many matches like RUG, Miracles and Esper as well as on the draw against other hymn decks!
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
I saw a list over on TC decks that adjusted the creature base to drop Delver and included Nimble Mongoose AND Tombstalker. To make this work, there was also 4 Thought Scour. I have not personally tested this idea, but the list did place highly in a 30-man tournament.
Mongoose would certainly help out a TON against StP.dec
I agree that Delver is pretty weak without Burn or enough counterspells to protect him.
I remember back in 2006-2007 or so when I played UWg Threshold in Vintage, with 4 Nimble Mongoose and 3 Werebear as part of my creature base. I played 3 Mental Note to make sure I reached Threshold quick enough to beat up my opponent before he could stabilize between hate bears (Kataki and Meddling Mage), Force of Will, Null Rod, etc. and it worked well at that point in history. I feel like I've come around full circle now, and though I haven't tested Thought Scour in BUG, I have tried it in RUG and wasn't very impressed.
That said, I love Nimble Mongoose, and I'll probably sleeve up this variant some time this week or next and give it a spin in the local scene.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
Why are you playing stifle?
Stacking Deathrite Shaman triggers on your opponent's DRS triggers aids the mana denial plan nicely, particularly since Team America has a lower curve than any of the opposing DRS decks. Stifle is just a part of the stifle/daze/wasteland denial, supplemented by boarded spell pierces. I don't have the 4th daze though, daze isn't a particularly good card and I find that the 4th is one of the weaker cards in the deck.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Been toying with the following:
4 delver
4 goyf
4 deathrite
2 tombstalker
2 disfigure
4 abrupt decay
4 Force of Will
4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn
4 Daze
4 wasteland
4 underground sea
4 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
4 misty rainforest
1 polluted delta
1 tropicL island
Board:
3 surgical extraction
2 winter orb
2 pithing needle
4 spell pierce
2 e plague
1 darkblast
1 library
Still on the fence about winter orb and needle over sinkhole.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
The issue I've found with stifle is when do you play it? Early turns? Deathrite's value goes down. If you play deathrite early then stifle becomes weak. They don't like playing together, so I don't see the point in trying to force them to.
@all: I've noticed that a number of people have been disliking delver, yet I've always loved him. Is there a reason (inconsistent flips, competing with DRS as the turn 1 drop) or just preference?
I might misunderstand: Why does DRS value go down when casting stifle early. They will still have a fetch in the graveyard you can use for mana?
If I got the wrong end of the stick please feel free to point it out to me because I am fairly new to BUG delver. :smile:
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
I really don't understand all this hate for Delver of Secrets. I think he's the best creature in the deck (although Deathrite Shaman is no joke and Tombstalker is a boss). Sure, he's high-variance and somewhat fragile, but he's literally your best opening against non-graveyard combo. Mongoose is also somewhat high-variance in the sense of raw damage output, and he also has the downside of being graveyard dependent. I feel like dropping Delver (especially for Mongoose) is just literally giving up any matchup where they have Rest in Peace or Relic. Delver flying is key against the Tribal decks and other BG decks. Sometimes he goes all the way, sometimes he eats a removal spell but buys you time to Hymn your opponent and drop more threats.
At the end of the day, I find it hard to fathom playing a tempo-based deck without Delver of Secrets.
Also stifle discussion - I feel like when the deck is operating properly, you're either tapping out or leaving up Deathrite + B source. In either case, you don't really want to have Stifle rotting in your hand.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
@all: I've noticed that a number of people have been disliking delver, yet I've always loved him. Is there a reason (inconsistent flips, competing with DRS as the turn 1 drop) or just preference?
Inconsistent flips, that's all. He's not competing with DRS at all, we finally have 2 serious turn 1 plays which I quite like. It applies at least virtual pressure, because people fear it and will at some point try to handle it, be it flipped or not. But the times I've seen it flipping after one or two turns in this deck are rare (sometimes it doesn't even flip when you cast ponder to set it up).
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cire_dk
I might misunderstand: Why does DRS value go down when casting stifle early. They will still have a fetch in the graveyard you can use for mana?
If I got the wrong end of the stick please feel free to point it out to me because I am fairly new to BUG delver. :smile:
Caleb Durward's article on 4 Color Thresh explains it (yes, I know there's a difference, but the logic of DRS vs. Stifle is sound and analogous for our purposes.).
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...-color-thresh/
Also, as DRS serves as a mana dork in the early turns, you typically want to throw haymakers like Abrupt Decay or Hymn and turn two, instead of waiting to respond with a stifle, and the mana tempo he gives us isn't as potent if we're casting him on turn two (when we'd rather be casting Hymn or dropping a goof). If we dropped DRS we could easily play stifle like RUG does... or we could just play RUG. DRS gives us an advantage and identity over RUG in this sense.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
The issue I've found with stifle is when do you play it? Early turns? Deathrite's value goes down. If you play deathrite early then stifle becomes weak. They don't like playing together, so I don't see the point in trying to force them to.
@all: I've noticed that a number of people have been disliking delver, yet I've always loved him. Is there a reason (inconsistent flips, competing with DRS as the turn 1 drop) or just preference?
As far as I can tell, Stifle is no longer a card that you play to hit fetches 90% of the time. It's great when that happens, but enough people don't play fetches or have the internet and can simply read how to play around it. I believe that stifle is now a card that you use to trade a card for time by hitting relevant abilities that matter. If you play it to trade a card for a card, you're not always going to get it, and even if you do, it's usually very debatable as to whether it was even a favorable/even exchange. As soon as the metagame shifts away from cards with blowout abilities like Jace's bounce or Terminus (or this deck stops being soft to them on resolution), I think we can cut the Stifles.
I generally only hold up for Stifle if I have the stifle, 2 blue sources, a wasteland, and I'm on the play. That way, if the opponent doesn't play into it, I can still hold blue mana open and I can start playing thoughtseize, delver, shaman, ponder, or the wasteland to maintain the mana advantage. Outside of that, I usually just play the 1st turn shaman or whatever because I'm not trying to hit a fetch with it 90% of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
I really don't understand all this hate for Delver of Secrets. I think he's the best creature in the deck (although Deathrite Shaman is no joke and Tombstalker is a boss). Sure, he's high-variance and somewhat fragile, but he's literally your best opening against non-graveyard combo. Mongoose is also somewhat high-variance in the sense of raw damage output, and he also has the downside of being graveyard dependent. I feel like dropping Delver (especially for Mongoose) is just literally giving up any matchup where they have Rest in Peace or Relic. Delver flying is key against the Tribal decks and other BG decks. Sometimes he goes all the way, sometimes he eats a removal spell but buys you time to Hymn your opponent and drop more threats.
At the end of the day, I find it hard to fathom playing a tempo-based deck without Delver of Secrets.
Also stifle discussion - I feel like when the deck is operating properly, you're either tapping out or leaving up Deathrite + B source. In either case, you don't really want to have Stifle rotting in your hand.
There's nothing wrong with Delver, it's just not as good as the alternatives given a limit on deck space. It's high variance, not your best opening against a blind opponent (Thoughtseize and Shaman are MUCH better) and non-GY combo is probably our easiest matches and we don't really need the boost there. The best thing about Delver is that you can throw it down turn 1 and force the opponent to play into your disruption to leverage a favorable game-state, but even then Shaman basically gives you the same board presence against almost everything without the inconsistency. The only real problem is that shaman is softer to planeswalkers, but mana denial, early discard, soft counters, and v clique solve that problem nicely.
Usually if Delver goes all the way, your opponent didn't actually have anything or couldn't play it so any efficient body will also get you there. Even if Delver flips immediately and your opponent cracks a few fetches, it's still a 6 turn clock,which is a LOT of turns to keep your opponent off of anything meaningful assuming they kept a playable 5. It's much better to play a threat that can live a bolt, or eat a bolt and still have value.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maximus
As far as I can tell, Stifle is no longer a card that you play to hit fetches 90% of the time. It's great when that happens, but enough people don't play fetches or have the internet and can simply read how to play around it. I believe that stifle is now a card that you use to trade a card for time by hitting relevant abilities that matter. If you play it to trade a card for a card, you're not always going to get it, and even if you do, it's usually very debatable as to whether it was even a favorable/even exchange. As soon as the metagame shifts away from cards with blowout abilities like Jace's bounce or Terminus (or this deck stops being soft to them on resolution), I think we can cut the Stifles.
I generally only hold up for Stifle if I have the stifle, 2 blue sources, a wasteland, and I'm on the play. That way, if the opponent doesn't play into it, I can still hold blue mana open and I can start playing thoughtseize, delver, shaman, ponder, or the wasteland to maintain the mana advantage. Outside of that, I usually just play the 1st turn shaman or whatever because I'm not trying to hit a fetch with it 90% of the time.
Just so we're clear, the current DTB is:
Us (including our Midrange/Control cousins)
Canadian
ANT
Miracles
Maverick
Blade Control
Jund
Sneak & Show
Goblins
...only one of these decks doesn't run fetches usually, and even then they have wasteland on top of the relevant abilities you spoke of (this deck is goblins). You'd run Stifle to stop fetches, as Canadian does, but that means DRS comes down a turn later, as does decay, as does everything else. The reason to not play stifle isn't because people aren't playing fetches or know how to play around stifle (the latter of which is still a surprisingly high amount, mind you, and like daze, playing around stifle grants you an advantage regardless) it's because Team America has a different set of goals than RUG.
And honestly, using Stifle to "buy time" is a shitty reason to run it, esp. Jace who can simply reactivate next turn. Once you start stifling stuff like that, you're going to have a bad time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maximus
There's nothing wrong with Delver, it's just not as good as the alternatives given a limit on deck space. It's high variance, not your best opening against a blind opponent (Thoughtseize and Shaman are MUCH better) and non-GY combo is probably our easiest matches and we don't really need the boost there. The best thing about Delver is that you can throw it down turn 1 and force the opponent to play into your disruption to leverage a favorable game-state, but even then Shaman basically gives you the same board presence against almost everything without the inconsistency. The only real problem is that shaman is softer to planeswalkers, but mana denial, early discard, soft counters, and v clique solve that problem nicely.
Usually if Delver goes all the way, your opponent didn't actually have anything or couldn't play it so any efficient body will also get you there. Even if Delver flips immediately and your opponent cracks a few fetches, it's still a 6 turn clock,which is a LOT of turns to keep your opponent off of anything meaningful assuming they kept a playable 5. It's much better to play a threat that can live a bolt, or eat a bolt and still have value.
Non-GY combo is a good matchup precisely because we have Delver to back up our hymns. You want disruption and a clock against combo; delver gives us that. Yes, clique is disruption and a clock but it costs three. In control or midrange that's not an issue, but Tempo decks by their very nature exploit undercosted/free spells to outrace our opponents in the early turns of a game. Delver can be dropped turn one, flip (off, say, a hymn or 'seize) and attack after we disrupt. You can also swarm the board with multiples, something clique cannot do.
Shaman can give us the same basic board state, yes, but he only drains for two and you need something in the yard to eat up. He's frankly as conditional as Delver in that sense; if you run into RIP, Needle or simply ran out of spells or a black source, you're going to have a 1/2 attacker. Wheee.
And a six turn clock? I didn't realize everyone was packing Dueling Grounds all of a sudden. A single Delver is rarely the only thing attacking for the entire game; Goyf, Stalker and DRS activations also factor into how quickly we can kill our opponent.
In summation:
- Delver costs one, keeping our curve low and threats always castable
- It doesn't care about the yard, giving us pressure through Rest in Peace
- When flipped, it's evasive and plays very well with DRS, netting you 5 damage a turn virtually
- The variance in Delver's flips isn't high enough to justify trying to find sub-optimal, more costly threats, and is easily offset by our cantrip suite.
- It is your best opener vs non-GY combo, and even against GY combo it's better than digging with a ponder.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barbed Blightning
...only one of these decks doesn't run fetches usually, and even then they have wasteland on top of the relevant abilities you spoke of (this deck is goblins). You'd run Stifle to stop fetches, as Canadian does, but that means DRS comes down a turn later, as does decay, as does everything else. The reason to not play stifle isn't because people aren't playing fetches or know how to play around stifle (the latter of which is still a surprisingly high amount, mind you, and like daze, playing around stifle grants you an advantage regardless) it's because Team America has a different set of goals than RUG.
And honestly, using Stifle to "buy time" is a shitty reason to run it, esp. Jace who can simply reactivate next turn. Once you start stifling stuff like that, you're going to have a bad time.
I took a surprising amount of learning this deck from reading so many articles about RUG from last year. A lot of the same concepts transfer and they were a surprisingly good resource. I would still consider this deck to be closer to RUG than to BUG midrange in terms of gameplan, but Shaman and Decay have definitely made that distinction less clear in the past few months. Even so, a Team America player should be comfortable with 2 lands and a Tarmogoyf in play with no cards in hand swinging for lethal. Expect to win lots of close ones with a high win rate.
In my particular area and play group, almost everyone knows to play around stifle if it's at all possible, so I don't really have a reason to rely on my opponents being bad and playing into blow-out situations. That said, I still keep the card in the deck. Trading cards for time with a clock is what this deck is all about. Force, Daze, Stifle, Wasteland, Sinkhole, Snuff Out, Temporal Mastery, and many of our sideboard disruption cards all facilitate this purpose to allow Team America to dominate the early game and to ride that momentum to victory before the opponent can recover.
Typically when Jace comes down on his bounce ability, he either needs it or you're already in trouble because he didn't need it. Trading a card, a mana, and a swing from a tombstalker is totally worth a card and 4 mana from the opponent compared to the alternative. Even then, if you're not able to trade stifle for time in most of your game 1 matches, that's when you simply cut it from the deck and that's fine.
Quote:
Non-GY combo is a good matchup precisely because we have Delver to back up our hymns. You want disruption and a clock against combo; delver gives us that. Yes, clique is disruption and a clock but it costs three. In control or midrange that's not an issue, but Tempo decks by their very nature exploit undercosted/free spells to outrace our opponents in the early turns of a game. Delver can be dropped turn one, flip (off, say, a hymn or 'seize) and attack after we disrupt. You can also swarm the board with multiples, something clique cannot do.
As stated before, I don't think non-GY combo decks are the ones that we should be afraid of. If anything, we already embarrass combo pilots more than rug and we can forfeit margin to those match-ups to gain margin elsewhere (tundra decks being a good start). Admittedly, Delver eating an Abrupt Decay or swinging in multiples are both pretty sweet deals and two very good points in favor of the card.
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Shaman can give us the same basic board state, yes, but he only drains for two and you need something in the yard to eat up. He's frankly as conditional as Delver in that sense; if you run into RIP, Needle or simply ran out of spells or a black source, you're going to have a 1/2 attacker. Wheee.
Even if Shaman and Delver were relative equals for board state all else equal, Shaman still wins out by adding a buffer against wasteland to our frail manabase as well. However, we can discard this argument; the members in this thread have largely decided that you want Shaman over Delver turn 1 on a blind opponent anyway, suggesting that they are not equals in terms of board presence. Also, let's be real, who's going to side in Pithing Needle against this deck?
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And a six turn clock? I didn't realize everyone was packing
Dueling Grounds all of a sudden. A single Delver is rarely the only thing attacking for the entire game; Goyf, Stalker and DRS activations also factor into how quickly we can kill our opponent.
If you need a second threat to finish your opponent, what's the point of the first one? This is not a semantics trap either. If we've already mutually decided that Delver isn't going to get us there to kill the opponent in a deck that only A. disrupts the opponent, and B. kills the opponent, it's at least not effective enough for what we need and it's a reasonable consideration to cutting it. This is particularly true when an increased threat count makes the threat itself even less mathematically potent.
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In summation:
- [1]Delver costs one, keeping our curve low and threats always castable
[2]It doesn't care about the yard, giving us pressure through Rest in Peace
[3]When flipped, it's evasive and plays very well with DRS, netting you 5 damage a turn virtually
[4]The variance in Delver's flips isn't high enough to justify trying to find sub-optimal, more costly threats, and is easily offset by our cantrip suite.
[5]It is your best opener vs non-GY combo, and even against GY combo it's better than digging with a ponder.
1. Totally valid point.
2. Also valid, although I'm not sure Delver is enough to ride through hate that powerful by itself.
3. If Delver always flipped there would be much less to debate.
4. I'm not entirely convinced that it's sub-optimal, or else I would agree with you. As our main deck approaches 24-25 cards that flip it over say the previous 28-29, the willingness to subject the card to objective scrutiny is entirely defensible.
5. Ponder is to help you get the cards you need. For this deck, when you Ponder, you're either going for a colored mana source, a threat, or some kind of disruption (wasteland is a disruption spell). If you always need turn 1 Delver over any other card in your deck in hand for turn 2, I can't help but feel that you're missing something.
To be completely clear, I'm not suggesting that I'm entirely correct. I just think that it's a debatable point rather than automatically in favor of one decision over the either. One decision is certainly "more correct" than the other, but it's hard to honestly evaluate with many speculative variables.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
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Originally Posted by
Maximus
As stated before, I don't think non-GY combo decks are the ones that we should be afraid of. If anything, we already embarrass combo pilots more than rug and we can forfeit margin to those match-ups to gain margin elsewhere (tundra decks being a good start). Admittedly, Delver eating an Abrupt Decay or swinging in multiples are both pretty sweet deals and two very good points in favor of the card.
Maybe it's just because I mostly play fast combo so I have experience from the other side, but I think your dismissal of combo is predicated on lack of testing against some combination of competent pilots and good decklists. For example, in testing before SCG Atlanta, I went something like 4-1 against Thresh thanks to Silence. Against BUG Delver, I have less playtesting but I've played the other side of the matchup more. Generally BUG has a hard time dealing with a turn 2 Ad Nauseam on the play or a quick Empty. If you think I'm exaggerating how consistent that can be, find a good local TES player. If Sneak and Show drops Leyline, you're riding hard on Force of Will and unfortunately none of our threats or answers are powerful enough to stand up to Griselbrand. Generally tempo can't recover from a Show and Tell player resolving their key spell - one of the reasons I feel S&S is slightly favored against even Thresh with all its counterspells.
That being said, Deathrite + Hymn + a quick clock make ANT relatively easy assuming they don't have an excellent hand.
If you're playing Cliques and Thoughtseize instead of Delver you're going to have a good disruptive threat and I could see that being quite powerful. But if you don't have that t1 Thoughtseize, Delver is by far the best start. So I'm not saying that BUG Delver has a bad combo matchup, but it's not 80% favored either.
After reading your post, though, I can see the argument for Stifle and Clique. I don't know if I agree with it, but it reminds me of old Team America but with a Birds / Lavamancer hybrid - nothing to sneeze at. Clique is very good against UW decks, but then again so is Delver. If I were to warp my deck for UW I'd cut Tombstalker, but Tombstalker is so insane against creature decks and R decks.
