I feel like scg top 8's have forgot this deck exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
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I feel like scg top 8's have forgot this deck exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
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Been sick as a dog for the past two days. Went 5-4 at SCG Milwaukee. Will write more when I'm back to the land of the living.
Is there any sb tech you guys have for the miracles matchup in esper colors? That deck is extremely popular again and the one-two punch of counterbalance+entreat is really hard to get through a lot of the time. I'm considering just putting entreats into my board for the matchup (running 3 tops main). I know needle on sdt is pretty good--but they do tend to bring in all of their art/ench destruction g2/3 anyways; needle is also pretty much dead once they land countertop as well.
Clique and Elspeth and 4 basics.
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Clique, Lingering Souls, and Liliana are all pretty good against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
Also, IMO, you should either drop the Tops or just shift to miracles.
I'm playing a more control orientated list again with 2liliana,2v clique and 2l souls md. They are all good vs miracles.. Not playing with TNN anymore but having MD cliques is really good. I board in duress and notion thief against miracles. If you want to beat miracles jace,liliana,elspeth,v clique,l souls are ur best options, combined with some discard+fow/pierce..
I have been having a lot of success lately with Moon Blade at several weekly and monthly tournaments. I really feel like I have a grip on any matchup I encounter. My one complaint however is that I lack a good maindeck catch-all such as Vindicate to deal with troublesome Planeswalkers, Artifacts, and Enchantments. PWs are generally not the main focus as Snaps, Nemesis, SFM, and Bolts usually take care of Lilies and Jace. A single Bridge forces me to Jace my opponent to death and that can be extremely difficult. A jitte on a Nemesis forces me to dig for my singleton Verdict pre-board, and that's a losing proposition. I thought of a single Wear // Tear mainboard but I don't like how it doesn't hit creatures and is essentially a dead card in lots of matchups. Perhaps Detention Sphere but I really dislike that card as it leaves you open to blowouts from Abrupt Decay and cannot be cast again via Snapcaster Mage. Any suggestions?
Venser, EE or Unexpectedly absent are really your best options I think. I share your dislike of dsphere. I haven't played "moon blade" per say, but it seems like it is probably somewhat similar to miracles, where I have played these cards maindeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Venser is amazing against any SFM deck, PW, show and tell and "combos" with karakas. Also, blue and can wield a sword. Nothing feels better than vensering in response to a lily +1's and both players are in topdeck mode. Also, being able to save your own Jace or important card comes up sometimes too.
EE, I almost never think of as creature removal. I usually use it as artifact/enchantment removal, but when needed it can be an overcosted murder, or sometimes even a day of judgement in the right scenario. You don't need ruins, or anything cutesy like that. It is great on its own. The only matchup its really dead in is sneak and show.
Unexpectedly absent again is very general and people are afraid to use it because they can't see past the cute interaction with fetchlands or thinking that they have to pay a high amount for X. The card is actually pretty good. It hits bridges, jace, lilys, things that are fine to (at the VERY worst) temporarily anwser, but can also bounce dudes, equipments whatever. And of course its awesome in response to fetchlands and its nice with snapcaster too. Again, show and tell, and storm are really the only times the card is totally dead. Like, venser sometimes UAing your own Jace/important card is a good play.
In the current meta a MD wear/tear wouldn't be terrible, but I think any 3 of the above are better options.
Thanks for the reply Architect.
I played Venser in Miracles quite a bit and I really dislike him without Karakas. 4 CMC is clunky and the body is fragile for Snap + Boomerang. Since I play Blood Moon main, I don't think Venser is where I want to be.
EE is a great catch-all but I mostly didn't include them because I feared for the dis-synergy with my own permanents. I don't really want to set EE @3 against a Lily or a Nemesis if I have a Blood Moon or a Nemesis of my own in play. I don't like to blow it at 2 in a Nemesis stare-down when we both have Jittes either. In my experience with EE in various Blade and Miracle decks, I found it to be an allstar sweeper at 0 or 1 against Delvers, Tokens, Elves, and anything packing Vials. It is probably the most convenient but I am not sold on its necessity for this deck.
Unexpectedly Absent is a card I have no experience with but that I immediately wanted for Miracles when it was spoiled. I like that I can Snapcast it but I dislike that it costs 2 white mana. I can definitely see how it is a great card in Miracles as this deck produces lots of mana, often fateseals, and can can basically answer anything on the stack via CB. I can see a parallel between CB and Blood Moon too where the absent permanent cannot be recasted and I have successfully 2 for 1'd my opponent by blanking his draw step as well as answering his permanent. It is also a fine card against a flipped Delver, any part of a Batterskull, an attempt at connecting with a Sword or a Jitte, or just to buy precious time by returning a DRS on top of its owner's Library. I will give it an honest try.
I don't know what to take out for it though, space is an issue... Hell, I can't even pack 4 Bolts!
That seems like a fair assessment. Venser is worse without karakas. I forgot how differently EE is used in miracles vs blade decks. In blade decks It is usually X=0-1, in miracles more often X=2 or 3. I do still think UA might be the best option. WW is sort of an issue, in the early game I imagine, but it is more of a later card usually were I imagine WW is more realistic.
I guess it is a meta call, but I can't see Wear/tear MD being worth it. Even against something like ebridge MD, you can still jace FTW, use jitte to get a SFM through, or just hope their hand builds with a blood moon out.
Just more counterspells, like actual counterspell, or spell pierce, are non-creature answers as well.
EDIT: Could you post a list too? Ive been working on find an Esper list with back to basics, but a blood moon based deck would be functionally very similar (and possibly better).
I'm finally over this flu. Anyway, I finished a disappointing 5-4 at SCG Milwaukee, losing twice to variance and twice to my own misplays; my wins weren't much better. As I didn't take any notes, this is all off memory, so I'll just give you the highlights.
Round 1: Elves (Owen Turtenwald)
I lose Game 1 because he has Symbiote out and I didn't have removal/countermagic for it, so it blanks my Jitte-equipped Batterskull for a few turns until he's able to NO --> lethal Craterhoof. There wasn't anything I could do this game as my draw steps and Brainstorm drew me nothing but lands and creatures (opened with SFM, Batterskull, Brainstorm and 4 lands on the play).
I lose Game 2 as my opening 7 is 5 lands and 2 Equipment, and my mull to 6 is at least Snare, Snapcaster and 4 lands. However, I draw nothing but lands the rest of the game and he GSZ into lethal Craterhoof as I show him a hand full of my sweet APAC Island and Plains.
Round 2: Deathblade
I win Game 1 off TNN equipped with SoFaI.
He wins Games 2 off TNN equipped with Jitte.
He wins Game 3 off 2x TNN. This match was miserable. I also did not see my 2 Supreme Verdict in Games 2 or 3 despite me digging furiously for them.
Round 3: Goblins
I win Game 1 as I open with a near perfect hand of StP, Force w/ blue card, SFM and 3 lands. There's a point in the game where I have Batterskull out and he Matrons for a Tuktuk Scrapper which I eot Clique out of his hand. Felt good.
I win Game 2 off TNN and Equipment. What a dumb non-game this was.
Round 4: Miracles
I win Game 1 as I'm able to win the counterwar over his Jace, which enables me to resolve my own Jace the following turn which he's unable to answer before I go ultimate.
I win Game 2 as he gets stuck on 3 lands for a few turns while I'm able to develop my board without much opposition. This game wasn't even Magic due to him getting manascrewed.
Round 5: Death and Taxes
He wins Game 1 by doing what his deck does and I'm effectively locked out of the game under multiple Ports, Thalia, etc.
I win Game 2 by being able to Verdict, then Snapcaster --> Verdict his board away and that leaves him vulnerable to TNN beats.
We goto time in Game 3 and he wins on turn 5 due to my on-board misplay. This loss stings as I would've been able to draw and because of the fact my misplay was on-board.
Round 6: UR StifleNaught
He wins Game 1 as I'm completely taken off guard when he plays turn 2 Dreadnaught; he played turned 1 Volcanic Island --> Delver which led me to believe he was on RUG Delver. I die to 12/12 trample beats.
He wins Game 2 the turn before I kill him as he's able to go eot Bolt, eot Bolt, topdeck Bolt. I didn't play around the 3x Bolt which I suppose I should have, but then I wouldn't have been able to threaten lethal next turn.
Round 7: Affinity
I win Game 1 as he mulls to 5 and is never able to mount much pressure while I assemble an unbeatable board.
I win Game 2 as I'm able to remove/counter every relevant threat of his and he runs out of gas while I'm able to assemble an unbeatable board.
Round 8: Death & Taxes
I win Game 1 as my Spell Snare hitting his SFM leaves his durdling for a few turns while I drop TNN and start bashing in.
I win Game 2 as my TNN equipped Jitte destroys his board of Thalia, Mom, Spirit of the Labyrinth when I'm at 2 life. TNN equipped Jitte singlehandedly brings me back from the brink of defeat to a dominating board position that my opponent has no answer for. This game was awesome until my TNN showed up, then it devolved into some retarded, rushed version of fair Magic that I didn't find enjoyable.
Round 9: Opponent no shows
My day saw variance on both sides of the table win/lose games and a few misplays here and there that meant the difference between winning and losing. I definitely learned more about the Elves and Death and Taxes matchups than before, so at least I walked away with that. I don't foresee making any wholesale changes, just need to play tighter and need more matchup experience.
Main
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra’s Factory
Side
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Disenchant
3 Rest in Peace
1 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Meddling Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
@TheArchitect
This is the Moon Blade deck I have been using lately. I have been having success with lots of different variants but this is the latest and most successful one as of yet. I went undefeated in swiss in my last tournament beating SnT, BG Pox, Junk, ANT, and drawing into top8 to eventually split. Here it is:
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Blood Moon
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karakas
2 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
Sideboard
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Wear // Tear
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
The sideboard is pretty solid, there isn't much to play around with.
Interesting list Qweerios. I've been wanting to fit in blood moon somewhere, but haven't found the room yet. After seeing Shane Remelt's 10th place list at Charlotte, I wanted to try out the list. I can't find an exact sideboard for his list posted anywhere, but after closely watching games 2 and 3 of his match against William Jensen I believe his list is:
Shane Remelt SCG Charlotte 3/30/2014
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Plains
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
1 Karakas
Sideboard
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Meddling Mage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Manriki-Gusari
3 Rest in Peace
2 Swan Song
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 ???? Unknown card
Assuming he ran the same list this weekend, I think he went 6-3 this time around at Dallas. I tried out several variations of the list, changing the number of TNNs, Jaces, equipment, countermagic etc., but ended up liking something close to his original 60 with the exception of -1 Island, +1 Counterspell. I used a different sideboard too since I didn't want to run so many equipment:
2 Meddling Mage
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Rest in Peace
1 Wear / Tear
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Swan Song
2 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Flusterstorm
As you can imagine, SnT is a rough match up pre-board. The list only has 4 FoW, 1 Counterspell, 1 Spell Pierce to fight. Even post board, I think the matchup is barely even. Our clock is just so slow, that they can usually answer whatever we put together (other than landing a Humility).
On the other hand, I'll play fair matchups all day. Having access to 4 plows, 3 bolts, and 3 Taigo Chans makes most creature matchups a breeze. Taigo also gives us some redundancy against discard. The Cliques have also been wonderful against Miracles and against opposing planeswalkers. I'm not totally sold on the Spell Snare, but I do like how it hits Counterbalance more than any of the other usual suspects (goyf, bob, sfm, hymn). As for the straight up Counterspell, I love having it against any grindy match as it keeps the board stable in our favor.
Jace has been an absolute all-star -- no surprise there. I almost feel like the deck is a Jace deck with 56 other cards to help us land him on a stable board. I tried out 3 Jaces before but found it difficult to close out some games. I considered supplementing 1 Elspeth, but after trying out the 4th Jace, I'm convinced the list works best with the full playset.
I've tried out a cheater version of the 60 that plays a REB in the main, but it heavily depends on your meta. A generic one mana counterspell that can be flashbacked is pretty good if you tend to play against islands. I've also tried a Venser main to hedge against SnT, but it's often a bad card in any other matchup. Maindeck Detention Sphere was also a consideration along the same effect, but I don't like it's vulnerability in other matchups to things like Abrupt Decay. I also want to do other things with the 3 mana, like TNN/Clique/Snapcaster.
I don't think a maindeck Supreme Verdict is necessary. With the amount of spot removal (including Jitte, Sword of FaI, and Jace -1) we have going on, it doesn't seem necessary. If they do land a TNN, then it seems reasonable we can race them.
Having said all that, some things really jumped out at me from Qweerios' list. I like running multiple copies of Spell Pierce. I originally ran 3, but when I didn't play any combo for a while, I cut down to 1 and immediately regretted it when my opponent threw down a sol land turn one. Also, I often find myself wanting more cantrips since the list runs something like a control list and usually empties out the hand pretty fast. My list basically only runs the 4 brainstorms to shape the hand. One might consider the 4 Jaces to be cantrips, but I see them more as a win-con if they ever land. And, I've rarely ever snapped back a brainstorm. I usually end up using Taigo for spot removal or Counterspell. I've been wanting to fit in a Ponder or two somewhere every time I play.
As for Blood Moon, in my mind, that's one of the few reasons to splash red in the first place. Otherwise, red gives us bolt, blast, and Wear/Tear. I never tried it though since I wasn't convinced our mana base could make it work, especially without running multiple Ponders or Tops like Miracles does to smooth out our draw. I also really liked running Mishra's Factories as it beat through Abrupt Decay, Liliana, and CounterTop. For the same reason Miracles doesn't run Blood Moon in the main, perhaps there are just better ways to win out there...
Qweerios, have you found Blood Moon to close out a lot of your games? Has it ever backfired when you casted it without enough basics out already?
Blood Moon is a house. Against many difficult matchups (RUG, TA, Deathblade) it simply puts them in a state of counter or win with what you have now. Against unsuspecting opponents, Blood Moon simply wins game 1 on its own most of the time. Even against opponents that clearly know I play multiple copies of Blood Moon in my deck, they often only have 1-2 basics in their deck and they play around potential moons even when I don't draw them or simply side them out. I knew moon effects were powerful but I had never experienced them in a deck with lots of manipulation, removal, counters, and card advantage. It is a weapon of fear that lots of decks do not have the means to handle in game 1, therefore why I play all my copies main. Unlike B2B, Blood Moon will completely stop your opponent rather than slow him down.
I have played Moons in the past with no basic plains in play or with only 1 island and it usually pays out. I have more odds of drawing into cards I can cast or basic lands than my opponent and when I drive it out and cripple myself, I always cripple my opponent more. Against any Delver deck out there, if you can land a Blood Moon on an empty board, you don't even need any basics to win because the game has immediately ended for your opponent. Even against Storm decks you can often just lay down a Moon once you have any other hate permanent in play such as RiP, Cage, Canonist. You are likely to win even if all your lands are mountains and you hold a bunch of Pierces and Flusterstorms because they are crippled until they find their basic Island/Swamp and you are more likely to draw into basic lands, FoWs and REBs.
Ponder is a great card here because it shuffles through Moon and is simply a great card overall. Jace lost most of his appeal when TNN and Delvers flooded the format. Tempo and combo decks are too fast and disruptive for Jace to be a 4-of, and midrange decks pack creatures that Jace cannot deal with very well such as SFM and Nemesis. Jace is still a great card but making him your central plan is a lost endeavor. This is why I chose to split Ponders and Jaces.
Concerning Verdict main, it is pretty much a necessity against opposing TNN decks. Those decks usually put a bigger clock on you than you do on them because of the control nature of our deck. When a deck relies on efficient creatures that are difficult to remove backed by land destruction and counterspells, an uncounterable sweeper in a basic land heavy deck is as good as it gets. If your meta contains a lot of TNN decks, I suggest increasing the amount of Verdicts mainboard because it is our most powerful answer to any board position these decks can produce.
Hey folks,
I've recently acquired the 3 underground seas I needed to build the esper version of this deck almost 100%. Thing is: I can borrow 03 polluted delta's from a friend of mine, but I prefer not to, cause I hate to depend on other ppl. That said, I'd like to know if it's possible to build an acceptable mana base using only flooded strand and marsh flats as fetchs (I have acess to scalding tarn too, if that helps).
My ideal manabase would be:
Land (23)
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Karakas
3x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
4x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
Replacing the 03 delta's I don't own, I considered: -3 polluted delta, +1 marsh flats, +1 creeping tar pit, +1 island OR plains.
Does that sound like a good plan?
My list, for reference, is that:
Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Sorcery (8)
1x Ponder
2x Supreme Verdict
4x Thoughtseize
1x Vindicate
Instant (14)
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
Creature (10)
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique
Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Land (23)
4x Flooded Strand
2x Island
1x Karakas
3x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
3x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
1x Swamp
4x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
Sideboard (15)
1x Detention Sphere
1x Disenchant
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Humility
1x Pithing Needle
2x Rest in Peace
2x Spell Pierce
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Zealous Persecution
Thanks in advance!
Went 3-0 at our weekly roundup, beating Pox 2-1, UWr Miracles 2-0 and Jund 2-0. Felt good about the list and am really happy with Mishra's Factory, especially now that I'm running 2 maindeck Verdict and a sideboard Humility.
Could I see your list? I've been advocating factories locally and would like to see your interpretation.
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I posted it a couple posts up, I've just gone -1 Clique, +1 Verdict main and -1 Verdict, +1 Humility sideboard since SCG Milwaukee.
Thank you. I saw the list but prefer to not be presumptuous.
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Running 2 maindeck Verdict allows me to assume the control role far easier now in the Delver matchups. Really digging it with the Factory action.