[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

I have two lists for everyones' consideration. I've been tinkering with these the last couple of days and feel ready to present them now.

The first is an updated Scapewish:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
2 Painful Truths

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

//sb
3 Pyroblast
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Cabal Therapy

It's debatable if the 3rd Huntmaster should instead be a Meren of Clan Nel Toth -- testing has been inconclusive so far.

What has not been inconclusive is the fact that, at least in Scapewish, Painful Truths is unfuckingbelievable. The card is everything Scapewish ever wanted -- not just maindeck, but also by being a bridge "go-to" wish target in the board for when you're not ready to Scapeshift someone yet, but you also don't need to answer a problem, which was a hole that existed in Scape for a very long time and caused a number of problems.

This version of Scape feels very, very good. If you want to win tournaments with Nic Fit, I strongly recommend this list (or one very close to it).

-------------

Alternatively, you could be me, and prefer to have fun (slash have sold off a lot of scapewish pieces in the last couple of months because unemployment sucks).

I've been tinkering with the idea of an "ultimate fit" for a while now. The concept has been thus:

BUG versions are the most stable, historically, because they have Brainstorm and Jace as additional sculpting tools, as well as Baleful Strix as a powerful 2-drop.
White versions gain Rhino, which is bar none the strongest 4-drop we have access to at the moment.
Red versions gain Slaughter Games, which is bar none the strongest combo/miracles hate we have access to at the moment.

Both white and blue versions have recently adopted splashing red via a pair of Deathrite Shamans and a Taiga, in order to gain access to Slaughter. The question I've had the last couple weeks is, why not go full Zoidberg and take the consistency of blue, the power of white, and the hate of red, and blend them together.

I present Ultimate Fit:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Thragtusk
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Consecrated Sphinx

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

3 Brainstorm

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Mana Confluence

//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Engineered Plague

It's taken me a while to get this list to the point where I was comfortable presenting it, because there's a lot of moving pieces and a lot of hidden packages that need to flow together correctly in the design for it to actually work out when playing it.

There are two things I am unhappy with at the moment. The first is the distribution of creatures -- the 4 spot is a bit heavy, while the 3 spot is a bit weaker. I may end up cutting a Rhino in favor of another 3-drop, but I am very undecided on that at this point. The second issue that I have with it is the lack of maindeck spot removal. Two pieces of spot removal is the fewest maindeck that I feel comfortable with, and I prefer to be in the ~4-5 range. At the end of the day, though, there are just too many things going on to be able to fit in traditional spot removal. Jace's -1 + Cabal Therapy technically counts, as does Baleful Strix -- so the deck is on somewhere around 2-3 pieces of nontraditional removal if you count them as .5 of a removal (which I personally do).

The lack of removal is compensated by the raw lifegain in this deck. It's running a -lot-. The idea is to stall, ramp, and overpower. Postboard you gain Carpets, Decays, and Flusterstorms (and probably E.Plagues if Grixis). Whether or not it can hold up to Delver adequately in this form remains to be seen -- but that's just about the only thing I'm worried about.

I'm going to be attempting to tune this up a little and give some more thoughts on it in a couple of days, but I wanted to get it out there for discussion now.

IT'S ALIVE!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPmVhyHBRAM

-Matt :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

To be honest, he also runs a Sigarda

But that doesn't have to be a problem. You just need to play enough spot removal to clear the road or some more beef. I'd switch Courser #2 for Rhino #4 and Sylvan Library for Path to Exile #3.

---

I cut a Rhino because I found 4 was leading to situations where I had too many stuck in my hand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I've been tinkering with the idea of an "ultimate fit" for a while now. The concept has been thus:

BUG versions are the most stable, historically, because they have Brainstorm and Jace as additional sculpting tools, as well as Baleful Strix as a powerful 2-drop.
White versions gain Rhino, which is bar none the strongest 4-drop we have access to at the moment.
Red versions gain Slaughter Games, which is bar none the strongest combo/miracles hate we have access to at the moment.

Both white and blue versions have recently adopted splashing red via a pair of Deathrite Shamans and a Taiga, in order to gain access to Slaughter. The question I've had the last couple weeks is, why not go full Zoidberg and take the consistency of blue, the power of white, and the hate of red, and blend them together.

I present Ultimate Fit:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Thragtusk
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Consecrated Sphinx

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

3 Brainstorm

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Mana Confluence

//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Engineered Plague

It's taken me a while to get this list to the point where I was comfortable presenting it, because there's a lot of moving pieces and a lot of hidden packages that need to flow together correctly in the design for it to actually work out when playing it.

There are two things I am unhappy with at the moment. The first is the distribution of creatures -- the 4 spot is a bit heavy, while the 3 spot is a bit weaker. I may end up cutting a Rhino in favor of another 3-drop, but I am very undecided on that at this point. The second issue that I have with it is the lack of maindeck spot removal. Two pieces of spot removal is the fewest maindeck that I feel comfortable with, and I prefer to be in the ~4-5 range. At the end of the day, though, there are just too many things going on to be able to fit in traditional spot removal. Jace's -1 + Cabal Therapy technically counts, as does Baleful Strix -- so the deck is on somewhere around 2-3 pieces of nontraditional removal if you count them as .5 of a removal (which I personally do).

The lack of removal is compensated by the raw lifegain in this deck. It's running a -lot-. The idea is to stall, ramp, and overpower. Postboard you gain Carpets, Decays, and Flusterstorms (and probably E.Plagues if Grixis). Whether or not it can hold up to Delver adequately in this form remains to be seen -- but that's just about the only thing I'm worried about.

I'm going to be attempting to tune this up a little and give some more thoughts on it in a couple of days, but I wanted to get it out there for discussion now.

---

I've been playing BUG Pod since Meren came out, and while I've been impressed with the deck's ability to generate value I have been missing the prevalence of combat-relevant bodies (coughcoughSiegeRhinocoughcough). The idea of a 4+ color shell has definitely been kicking around in my head too. No list to share (yet), but I wanted to endorse the mad-scientist deck approach.

My only specific feedback for your list is that 1 Savannah feels like too few fetchable white sources and that a full 8 fetch lands would be helpful for grabbing the Taiga too. I'd be inclined to cut a Bayou, 2 basics and the Mana Confluence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I have two lists for everyones' consideration. I've been tinkering with these the last couple of days and feel ready to present them now.

The first is an updated Scapewish:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
2 Painful Truths

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

//sb
3 Pyroblast
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Cabal Therapy


I'm going to be attempting to tune this up a little and give some more thoughts on it in a couple of days, but I wanted to get it out there for discussion now.

---

Few questions:

1) Is Nissa really better than the second Sakura/Wood Elves ? For sure, it gives you more lategame power but is likely more detrimental against MU where speed is key, because it doesn't ramp (also basic forest could be a liability...)

2) In my fuck..g world, Scapeshift is always in my starting hand or when I don't need it/dead card. Have you tested going down to 2, especially since you have included Painful Truth ?

3) I am a proponent for the 3 MD / 1 SB Therapy as I have won multiple games on the backfoot of a wished + flashbacked CT.
Still, only 3 discard spells MD makes me shiver like a naked baby.
Reducing our combo hate + our own combo speed (less ramp) is asking for troubles and Nic Fit is not known for being really efficient against combo decks. If this is the path you are taking, going down to 2 Scape makes even more sense (threat heavier / less combo..y)

4) I feel like Boseiju is heavily redundant (CITP is something I really dislike). 3 Pyro / 3 SLG should be enough to push through a wall of countermagic.

5) No gravehate SB ?
From my point of view pyro is very weak in a proactive deck like Scapeshift. I would take any chance to discard + surgical before playing pyro. And I'm speaking about personal experience here; as having to hold one mana (red, here) has been eventually detrimental:
a) If you play pyro you have to assess whether holding one mana for pyro is better than advancing your game (which you would do anyway 98 % time, because we all know about the risk aversion's theory). Not to mention that this is an easy move to read for a competent opponent.
b) If you don't play pyro, you can still pretend/bluffing playing it if you don't need to tap out.

6) No Toxic SB ?
I'm not a ferocious proponent for Toxic as a wish target but still we do have to respect aggro strategies (elfes, merfolk, tokens etc...).
You were complaining about not having a clear out to Elves and I feel like the mini recurring loop (Pyro or Deed/E.W/Meren) can be as nasty as it gets and difficult to break for an elves player if you get to that point (actually getting to pyro the board once should give you enough time to GSZ+E.W pyro again or deed which should give you enough time to assemble the aforementioned loop).

7) What if you cut Primeval Titan for Meren ?

I have never tried Nissa, but I feel like it could be your lategame bomb (freeing up one slot MD). It gives you space for Meren which provides you a lot of recurring options.
Still one has to assess whether games won by Titan would have been won with Meren/Nissa

Anyway, as usual thank for sharing your ideas and let's discuss.

Ralf

@Ralf:

1) The card's power is definitely worth it imo. The 2nd Wood Elves was always kind of an awkward slot, so I'm glad to upgrade it to something a bit less embarrassing in the mid-to-late game. Basic Forest could be an issue, and is something I have my eye on. The deck might need an 8th basic, likely a 4th Forest. It would probably come at the cost of the 3rd Bayou, which is a little steep of a cost, but it's either that or the 3rd Verdant, which I think is more important. Maybe the 2nd Swamp? I dunno yet.

2) I didn't build the list for myself; I built it for my roommate, who is primarily a combo player. I personally would probably just run it as a 2-of, but he really wants to be able to kill people, so, your mileage (should) vary.

3) This is a sideeffect of the Painful Truths. Painful Truths is too crazy in this deck to not run, and there are a very limited number of spots -- you'll note that there wasn't enough room for maindeck Decays, either, which is something that has been good and likely still is. On the flip side, Truths helps you draw into more Wishes, more Therapies, and more gas to drown out counter protection. This build of the deck leans a little more on Scapeshift density than on clearing the way first and then resolving. I could see cutting 1 Scapeshift for 1 Thoughtseize, but I just don't think that the slots exist for 2 copies maindeck without some serious sacrifices.

4) It could be. I respect Miracles as a deck and want to be able to push through that matchup. I personally think that the degree of improvement in the Miracles matchup when you have a land (which they have no way of removing) which makes your kill card uninteractable is worth one space. If you want to skate without it, I'm certainly not going to fault you for that opinion.

5) Graveyard decks have always been Scape's achilles heel -- reanimator is unwinnable, and dredge is close. I have said in the past that trying to beat graveyard-based combo decks with Scapewish is not worth the space you need to sacrifice to accomplish it, and I maintain that opinion. You beat Reanimator and friends by dodging it, not by junking up your sideboard with a couple Tormod's Crypts that you'll never draw / resolve anyway.

6) I actually thought about Deluge long and hard when I was assembling the list. I came to the conclusion that you don't actually need it. Deluge was always primarily for True-Name Nemesis, which is a card that doesn't have a lot of market share at the moment. It's not awful to board in vs Elves, but I'm of the opinion that it's too slow most of the time. If you want to beat Elves, you really need to sideboard ~3 Pyroclasms to make it happen, which then cuts into your Slaughter Games slots. If you cut the 3rd Scape maindeck for a Thoughtseize, and then cut Thoughtseize 2 and Boseiju from the sideboard for 2x Pyroclasm, Elves probably becomes a much better matchup -- but, again, I don't think it really becomes favorable at any point, and I'd still rather have the Boseiju to make Miracles strongly favored.

7) I learned a long time ago to never cut Primeval Titan in Scape. The card wins you so many games that you have no right winning. If the choice was between Primeval and Nissa, and I could somehow only have one of them, I would still choose Primeval in this deck. Some games you'll stare at it and be like, why is this piece of shit in my deck -- and those games feel bad, sure, but they're a trap, because Primetime is a bro and he'll pull your ass out of the fire when you need him to.

---------------

@LordOMJ:

You don't need fetchable white sources, really. You have Brainstorm, Jacestorm, and Green Suns if Bad Shit (tm) happens to your white sources. More often than not, your plan is to Zenith out Rhinos, not cast them. You also have 2 Deathrites that can assist, and if you know you're on the cast-a-rhino plan, you can always Zenith up a Deathrite a turn or two earlier to be ready just in case.

There's already 6 fetches, so if you wanted to go up to 8, you'd only need two cuts, which likely means the Bayou and the Confluence. I like the idea of the Confluence, but agree that it needs testing to see actual relevance. Going fewer than 7 basics is not something I am going to do -- 7 has always worked well for me, going back many, many years now.

I'll note that I'm basing the manabase off of my white list's manabase, which has never had a problem supporting Slaughter Games in combo matchups with 6 fetch 1 taiga 2 deathrite as the only red sources -- in that light, this version is already ahead on sources since it also has the confluence.

After playing the deck a lot and having read this thread pretty much daily, I can say I have my decent share of experience on how this archetype works. I have to say thanks to all the wonderful people that contribute to this thread daily and respond in a very educated and thoughtful manner. So let's see the list I'm currently working with at the moment; I only play junk so I won't consider Jund and BUG. One last thing: the Painful Truths are still there because I simply want to play a little bit more with them to allow myself to form a definite opinion about them. I don't like Painful Truths to be honest, but I hate to admit that against Miracles I want to have a constant flow of threats to cast, especially when both we and the opponent are in top deck mode with 1-2 cards in hand. I find that in this frequent situation we can only play 1 dumb dude that's pretty much gonna be forced or counterspelled; as it is clear to everyone top helps our draws but doesn't give us raw power to put on the table.

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful Truths
2 Path to Exile

1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heaths*
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs*
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
(don't watch my manabase, I know it isn't optimal but that's for budget reasons)

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Duress
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Plague
1 Tsunami
1 Gaddock Teeg


My considerations:
-I like the sideboard, I have followed your ideas and I'm happy with how it plays. After G1 I feel we have a shot against storm, and to me that alone is surprising considering we are playing Rhino.dec. Carpet is a must, I'd never play without them.

-Teeg in the sideboard. I have played with him in the main for a long time but he really is the key part of our survival plan only against storm (and elves, right?); occasionally he would prevent my opponent to cast Jace (in my opinion people in this thread generally underestimate how Jace can destroy us) but that was only situational, and I think that in these kind of Jace matchups he is just gonna bait a Stp and/or is not gonna stay on the table very much.

-Volrath Stronghold. I know. I'll have fun with it for a bit and I will eventually take it out.

-Elspeth, Garruk, Thrun and Tsunami are the bombs for the blue.dec matchups. Thrun and Elspeth have been amazing for me and have won me games; I still don't know if I wanna 100% keep Tsunami but I like to force the opponent to have a counterspell or die to this kind of cards. We want to drop bombs after durdling, after all.

-I have decided I want to treat Meren as a value-bomb, but I am not willing to warp my main plan to accomodate for her. I don't like intents anyways, and I have chosen to not play Qasali Pridemage.

-No Courser of Kruphix for the reasons I have posted a couple of days ago.

-Judgement is coming in the planeswalkers matchups, where WW is not going to be a problem. I could, maybe should, play Vindicate because of the easier cost.

-3 Rhino: he is our best friend but 4 is too much. In my opinion 2 is too few because the helix attached to him has won me a lot of games, and this lead me to think that I wanna see him more often just to be able to win off the drain 3 effect, even in otherwise desperate/unwinnable situations (Ricardio, I'm sure you can confirm that winning vs Miracles with the helix is one of the best feelings ever).

That is all. I'm still learning from all the people here, but I wanted to post to get some feedback and to say what I have gathered during my testing sessions. Excuse me again for my english, I'm sure I have made some mistake somewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

@Ralf:

1) The card's power is definitely worth it imo. The 2nd Wood Elves was always kind of an awkward slot, so I'm glad to upgrade it to something a bit less embarrassing in the mid-to-late game. Basic Forest could be an issue, and is something I have my eye on. The deck might need an 8th basic, likely a 4th Forest. It would probably come at the cost of the 3rd Bayou, which is a little steep of a cost, but it's either that or the 3rd Verdant, which I think is more important. Maybe the 2nd Swamp? I dunno yet.

2) I didn't build the list for myself; I built it for my roommate, who is primarily a combo player. I personally would probably just run it as a 2-of, but he really wants to be able to kill people, so, your mileage (should) vary.

3) This is a sideeffect of the Painful Truths. Painful Truths is too crazy in this deck to not run, and there are a very limited number of spots -- you'll note that there wasn't enough room for maindeck Decays, either, which is something that has been good and likely still is. On the flip side, Truths helps you draw into more Wishes, more Therapies, and more gas to drown out counter protection. This build of the deck leans a little more on Scapeshift density than on clearing the way first and then resolving. I could see cutting 1 Scapeshift for 1 Thoughtseize, but I just don't think that the slots exist for 2 copies maindeck without some serious sacrifices.

4) It could be. I respect Miracles as a deck and want to be able to push through that matchup. I personally think that the degree of improvement in the Miracles matchup when you have a land (which they have no way of removing) which makes your kill card uninteractable is worth one space. If you want to skate without it, I'm certainly not going to fault you for that opinion.

5) Graveyard decks have always been Scape's achilles heel -- reanimator is unwinnable, and dredge is close. I have said in the past that trying to beat graveyard-based combo decks with Scapewish is not worth the space you need to sacrifice to accomplish it, and I maintain that opinion. You beat Reanimator and friends by dodging it, not by junking up your sideboard with a couple Tormod's Crypts that you'll never draw / resolve anyway.

6) I actually thought about Deluge long and hard when I was assembling the list. I came to the conclusion that you don't actually need it. Deluge was always primarily for True-Name Nemesis, which is a card that doesn't have a lot of market share at the moment. It's not awful to board in vs Elves, but I'm of the opinion that it's too slow most of the time. If you want to beat Elves, you really need to sideboard ~3 Pyroclasms to make it happen, which then cuts into your Slaughter Games slots. If you cut the 3rd Scape maindeck for a Thoughtseize, and then cut Thoughtseize 2 and Boseiju from the sideboard for 2x Pyroclasm, Elves probably becomes a much better matchup -- but, again, I don't think it really becomes favorable at any point, and I'd still rather have the Boseiju to make Miracles strongly favored.

7) I learned a long time ago to never cut Primeval Titan in Scape. The card wins you so many games that you have no right winning. If the choice was between Primeval and Nissa, and I could somehow only have one of them, I would still choose Primeval in this deck. Some games you'll stare at it and be like, why is this piece of shit in my deck -- and those games feel bad, sure, but they're a trap, because Primetime is a bro and he'll pull your ass out of the fire when you need him to.

---

Thanks for your thoughts, here are some additional comments:

1) Boseiju does not help you casting Pernicious Deed, Creatures, Pyro. Aside from GSZ and Scape, the card is too narrow to my taste. Miracle is all about resolving a Pernicious & some SLG(s).
Furthermore, boseiju is a dead sideboard card in too many MU(s) (every non blue MU to be honest).

2) I was not talking about Tormod Crypt. Surgical extraction is a card I have learnt to respect. It has a wider application than Pyro and can mess up pretty big time with Miracle as well. I wouldn't focus on Dredge, Rea only. Any combo deck should also respect the card as it can give you way more free wins than Pyro. Coupled with CT and TS you can really shred a hand or take out a major combo piece. The fact that it has collateral damage against Rea, Dredge, ANT, Miracle just to name a few (miracle card, tops, FOW, snapcaster) is just cherry on the cake.
If I had really wanted to speak about gravehate against dredge or Rea, I would have named Scavenging Ooze (Dryad Militant to a lesser extend) and I already know your position about it.
And if you wonder I'm not routing for Surgical at any costs. If we find a better card than those, we shall play it.

3) Don't get me wrong. I don't criticize your list. Choices have to be made and I'm just trying to weight the pros and cons of each slot.
My point about Primeval is that I can see him as a very costly slot. Cannot we win against as many MU as without him (with cheaper card) ? That is the question I am asking (and that has to be addressed somehow).
The fact that it saved your (and mine) ass several times by the past should not prevent us from weighting its impact on the current metagame.

- Where did Primetime shine above all ? From experience, it shined mainly in grindy MU (mainly against BSK.deck to be honest). I truly think Meren and Nissa could do the same work (but it has to be assessed). Why ?

For example, against D&T, you would be able to trick your opponent once with Meren (when karakas is tapped out). Here, Meren is low.
What about Nissa ? It could be a gamebreaker, here. G1 D&T has no way to deal with eight 6/6 if you can reach the ulti. But Nissa can also be bounced by Karakas in response to the land trigger.
When you have both Meren and Nissa in hand, 7 mana untapped mana is all what you need to play around a karakas.
Is it enough ? Or is Primeval better ?

- What are the other MU(s) where Primeval could have shined (is shining):
a) Miracle (killing a Jace is nice)
b) Jund / Shardless (killing a liliana, bob, some creature)
c) S&T (giving you enough permanents to survive a sneaked Emrakul)
d) I might forget a few other but its main other application is to get use of the valakut triggers without playing Scape.

Do you truly think that Nissa + Meren cannot do the same or bring other winning lines of play?
Maybe or maybe not.

But I'm pretty sure I'm not looking at any card in my deck like a "bro" that can pull my ass out of nowhere. I want a clear pattern (lines of play) of what to do against any MU. If Primeval is better than Meren+Nissa in just one more MU than the pair, Primeval will be played. That's all.

I also might be wrong about Primetime and maybe (as you wrote) a huntmaster has to go to make room for Meren.
Although in legacy, I usually start by cutting the top of the curve. Because I want to have the maximum impact in the very first turns.
Dying with an almighty Primetime in hand happens (and more likely than with a Huntmaster or a Meren).

4) You have reduced the mana ramp amount of your scape list (at some point, you were playing 2 sakura 2 Wood elves). I was not suggesting that you have cut a Wood Elves for a Nissa. It could have been Wood or Sakura. I'm just stating that your list has 1 less ramp creature and thus that the list is less about ramping as fast as possible to get a Scape kill. The "basic forest" thing might not be a cute trap at all.
I learnt that fixing mana is key in Scape and having access to the color you lack by T3 was maybe one of the strengh of the original list.

Well, these comments are just food for thoughts just to keep us alerted that any deck should evolve. What has worked in the past, may or may not work again or we might have better/cheaper solutions that lead us to the same goal: games win.

Or the Spike/Timmy, that live within me, cannot get along together and I should just let it go...

Hi guys,
today i was testing my junk version
i posted my list 2 or 3 pages back, only made some little changes, for example add Diabolic intent -oooh boy!
ok, at first i played against BUG
i play bad and made mistakes, games was long, but still 2:0 for nic fit
Only creeping tar pit was enoying

Next i was playing against mono blue faries with stand stills
This MU was much harder then i expect Stifling + wastelandings... and back to basic?! ....
veteran gave him his basics and he can cast and attach jitte to his delvers and faries
BUT stoneforge supporting us with Sword of fire and ice was often enough, especialy on Sigarda :D

Last MU i tried was mono red stompy with goblin packages
His silver bullets wasnt silver enough against nic fit...
Sweepers was just decimating

In every MU i drawed Diabolic intent .... and this card is huuuuge!!!
Toxic deluge, Sword of fire and ice... sigarda... whatever you want, whatever you need
When u r playing Intent, Dryad is must...
Funny combo is when u have intent and 2 veterans, or veteran + phyrexial tower...
sac veteran to intent, get two lands, fetch for tower, sac second vet, get 2 lands, get two mana from tower..
but its not often constalation... but opponents face is just WTF

And after today playing , iam glad for Stoneforge and his little tools
In early game you have presure..
When u have mana screw, you can still casting threats
In late game its 1/2 guy which can fetch for 5mana batterbomb or sword which is still key card in some MU
And finaly its next body for Intent when she did his job
EDIT:
i almost forget about Meren...
When i cast sigarda every turn, she ate daze, second time FoW .. and meren still put her back to my hand and opponent with faeriest desperatly try to get her out

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nargoron

And after today playing , iam glad for Stoneforge and his little tools
In early game you have presure..
When u have mana screw, you can still casting threats
In late game its 1/2 guy which can fetch for 5mana batterbomb or sword which is still key card in some MU
And finaly its next body for Intent when she did his job

---

Yes.
SFM package is huge in Junk Nic Fit and you have perfectly summ'd the reasons to play it.
I would also add that SFM package might be the best tool (ever) against rogue deck in general.

T3 -> BSK/jitte is a hell of a deal for any fair deck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I have two lists for everyones' consideration. I've been tinkering with these the last couple of days and feel ready to present them now.

...

I've been tinkering with the idea of an "ultimate fit" for a while now. The concept has been thus:

BUG versions are the most stable, historically, because they have Brainstorm and Jace as additional sculpting tools, as well as Baleful Strix as a powerful 2-drop.
White versions gain Rhino, which is bar none the strongest 4-drop we have access to at the moment.
Red versions gain Slaughter Games, which is bar none the strongest combo/miracles hate we have access to at the moment.

Both white and blue versions have recently adopted splashing red via a pair of Deathrite Shamans and a Taiga, in order to gain access to Slaughter. The question I've had the last couple weeks is, why not go full Zoidberg and take the consistency of blue, the power of white, and the hate of red, and blend them together.

I present Ultimate Fit:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Thragtusk
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Consecrated Sphinx

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

3 Brainstorm

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Mana Confluence

//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Engineered Plague

It's taken me a while to get this list to the point where I was comfortable presenting it, because there's a lot of moving pieces and a lot of hidden packages that need to flow together correctly in the design for it to actually work out when playing it.

There are two things I am unhappy with at the moment. The first is the distribution of creatures -- the 4 spot is a bit heavy, while the 3 spot is a bit weaker. I may end up cutting a Rhino in favor of another 3-drop, but I am very undecided on that at this point. The second issue that I have with it is the lack of maindeck spot removal. Two pieces of spot removal is the fewest maindeck that I feel comfortable with, and I prefer to be in the ~4-5 range. At the end of the day, though, there are just too many things going on to be able to fit in traditional spot removal. Jace's -1 + Cabal Therapy technically counts, as does Baleful Strix -- so the deck is on somewhere around 2-3 pieces of nontraditional removal if you count them as .5 of a removal (which I personally do).

The lack of removal is compensated by the raw lifegain in this deck. It's running a -lot-. The idea is to stall, ramp, and overpower. Postboard you gain Carpets, Decays, and Flusterstorms (and probably E.Plagues if Grixis). Whether or not it can hold up to Delver adequately in this form remains to be seen -- but that's just about the only thing I'm worried about.

I'm going to be attempting to tune this up a little and give some more thoughts on it in a couple of days, but I wanted to get it out there for discussion now.

---

Dude, you need to run removal. Lifegain is fun and all, but you have to survive to the point where that lifegain actually starts to happen. I think you'd be better of with Rhino Fit + Brainstorm & Ponder, if you can get the manabase to work. The blue stuff just doesn't have enough impact to warrant its place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brael

I cut a Rhino because I found 4 was leading to situations where I had too many stuck in my hand.

---

Meh, just durdle durdle, Rhino Rhino. Works perfectly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rubblekill

...

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful Truths
2 Path to Exile

1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heaths*
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs*
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
(don't watch my manabase, I know it isn't optimal but that's for budget reasons)

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Duress
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Plague
1 Tsunami
1 Gaddock Teeg

...

---

Your manabase is fine. I'd switch the Stronghold for a BW fetch and perhaps drop red & Taiga for a 2nd BW fetch. That'd leave you with the manabase I run and I can tell you it works just fine. No need to run more Bayous and friends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nargoron

Hi guys,
today i was testing my junk version
i posted my list 2 or 3 pages back, only made some little changes, for example add Diabolic intent -oooh boy!

...

In every MU i drawed Diabolic intent .... and this card is huuuuge!!!
Toxic deluge, Sword of fire and ice... sigarda... whatever you want, whatever you need
When u r playing Intent, Dryad is must...

---

You're welcome & yep, it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

You're welcome & yep, it is.

---

Yep , thanks for advice :)

Aaand, now i know why you like slaughters game in side...
i lose 2:0 against loaming pox with Merit Lege... two times in a row i just warch this cheap combo and cant do enything ...
In game two:he played 2x crop rotation, slaughters game after the first one result would be cute :(

I'm not the Slaughtergames fanatic... I'm the guy with the endless supply of Path to Exiles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

I'm not the Slaughtergames fanatic... I'm the guy with the endless supply of Path to Exiles.

---

Yea i try to find Swords but when he played 2x crop rotation on the end of your turn... there is not much time for that ....

I can use from my SB:
1xNeedle
2xBlood moon
1x Vindicate - but sorcery speed is rly bad for this :/
and probably 1 piece of Slaughters game put to my SB, not sure yet...

In main i have:
1x Karakas
1x Diabolic Intent for Karakas

This games drive me back to idea of Knight of the Reliquary for fetch Karakas...

So... I've got a 16 man invitational coming up this saturday. I'm expecting at least the following opponents:
1 Grixis Delver w/ a minor green splash for his DRS
1 Lands
1/2 Miracles
1/2 BUG/Shardless Bug
3 ANT/TES
1 Maverick
1 fellow Abzan Nic Fit
1 Burn
and 3 players I don't know from the top of my head.

I reckon the biggest threats are Lands (unless I get my fancy Meren + sac outlet + Eternal Witness + PtE engine online quickly), Miracles and the Storm decks.

My regular SB is as follows:
3 Duress
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace

Does anyone have any tips on what changes to make to the SB? My main 60 are going to be the same as at the monthly, with the exception of switching a DRS for a Starved Rusalka (yes, I'm nuts). I'm also toying with the idea of switching a MB Pernicious Deed for a Gaddock Teeg to increase my chances of stealing game 1 vs. Storm. Thoughts on that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Echelon

Does anyone have any tips on what changes to make to the SB? My main 60 are going to be the same as at the monthly, with the exception of switching a DRS for a Starved Rusalka (yes, I'm nuts). I'm also toying with the idea of switching a MB Pernicious Deed for a Gaddock Teeg to increase my chances of stealing game 1 vs. Storm. Thoughts on that?

---

Do you have your usual sideboard tables ready ?

Without them it would be difficult to give you any useful advice.

Gaddock is usually an auto-win vs Storm but chances you will be able to cast it are very low. Why ?

If you are not dead by T2, it means that the following sequence has took place (assuming you are on the play):

T1 -> land + cantrip (ponder for example)
T2 -> land + Cabal/Duress for a T3 kill.

If your opponent knows you are on NicFit, they will usually name/take GSZ.

So based on this scenario, your best bet might not be "Gaddock". I would pick any hatebear @ 1 CMC.

Dryad Militant might be a better choice given the number of Storm you are anticipating.
Sure, they still can get out of it, but it is a real pain in the ass.

Not to mention that Dryad has also a wider application against some of your MUs:
- Miracle -> Gaddock is better, but still Dryad has to be dealt with because it messes pretty hard with snapcaster shenanigans (in other words, your opponent HAS to STP it before any other creature if not STP will be exiled)
- Storm -> Gaddock is auto win G1. Dryad only makes sure the PIF plan is out of contention (not much use against TES but well you never know) and will give you a shit load of time to kill him (mess up with cabal ritual as well, etc...).
- Lands -> Dryad is an all star, Gaddock is useless. It will exile the first PF if dealt with or will completely shut up Loam if your opponent doesn't find a removal for it.
- BUG -> Dryad is not very strong, Gaddock is almost useless (save FOW). At least Goyf won't grow fast and there will be no/less food for DRS ping ability (and you are in the control seat here so the longer the game lasts, the better if you ask me)
- Burn -> I guess Dryad is slightly better. Gaddock will shut their biggest spell but also will prevent you from casting GSZ which is here very detrimental. Dryad will be able to block a turn faster and will mess with lavamancer.
- Maverick -> it depends of the Maverick version (straight GW or dark maverick or punish Mav etc...) none are really very useful here save the exile 1st PF thing.

My 2 cents

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralf

Do you have your usual sideboard tables ready ?

Without them it would be difficult to give you any useful advice.

---

I usually go with what feels right. For the mentioned MU's I'd probably SB as follows:

Miracles:
+ 2 Carpet of Flowers
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 2 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Qasali Pridemage
- 2 Veteran Explorer
- 2 Path to Exile
- 1 Fierce Empath
- 1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain
- 1 Siege Rhino
- 1 Deathrite Shaman

ANT:
+ 3 Carpet of Flowers
+ 3 Duress
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Rest in Peace
- 3 Veteran Explorer
- 4 Path to Exile
- 2 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Dragonlord Dromoka

TES:
+ 3 Carpet of Flowers
+ 3 Duress
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Rest in Peace
+ 2 Golgari Charm
- 3 Veteran Explorer
- 4 Path to Exile
- 1 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Dragonlord Dromoka
- 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
- 1 Fierce Empath
- 1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain

Lands:
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Rest in Peace
+ 2 Pithing Needle
- 2 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Siege Rhino
- 1 Deathrite Shaman
- 1 Veteran Explorer

For the other MU's I depend less heavily on the SB (ie. I'd almost be comfortable with playing G2 and/or G3 with the same 60 as I start with).

I have also edited my previous post.

1) Miracles:

+ 3 Carpet of Flowers
+ 3 Duress
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 2 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Qasali Pridemage
+ 1 Golgari charm
- 4 Cabal Therapy
- 3 Veteran Explorer
- 4 Path to Exile (-2 if monastery)
- 1 Fierce Empath
- 1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain

DRS is an all-star vs Snapcaster. Just be clever and use it on sorcery speed cards in your opponent's graveyard at his EOT.
If STP is in the grave, just use it anyway (not on STP, always on sorcery speed). It will give a window for your opponent to flashback the said STP but I truly believe that we have to be aggressive in this MU. It is also a play I like very much because your opponent might have to full tap for casting that Snap + STP, giving you a very nice window to cast something useful during your turn.

Cabal Therapy is bad in this MU. You will likely have very few creatures in play and you cannot really make card disadvantage if you don't hit. Duress is your must-go-to.

I won't be that much afraid by Monastery if I were you. But well, if you really want to keep some PTE...

Golgari is a card I have known to appreciate as a 1-of or 2-of. It can save you from an aggro hand (clique + snap / monastery aggro), lethal entreat, and can deal with CB. Just be sure to take the maximum value out of it. It is sometime a dead card but can be really helpful.

2) TES / ANT

No difference here.
ANT will likely bank his ass on Empty the Warren on G2. Golgari + Deed must stay in. I would go with TES sideboard.
Try to keep Dragonlord in. I know you have 0.0001 % to cast it but it races tokens and can put you out of reach really really fast.

3) Lands

I would keep every DRS. I know it dies to PF but it messes with its loam/PF engine. You will always almost want to start a hand with a DRS in it. It also bypasses the Glacial chasm thing (like Rhino).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nargoron

Iam little bit diaspointed cose of missing Pithing needle
This little thorn can be pretty anoying for lots of decks...
Miracle- lock Jace, ban Top if you dont have your own... but still he needs top more then u
Elves ban his symbiote is deadly in combination with sweepers... and disturb his glimpse combo hard, or Quirion or whatever he has on the table...
Kill Dark depth combo and this sort of stuffs..
Maverick is pretty enoying with his mothers... or wasteland cycle with Knight. his equipments and so on...
and there is much more...

For 1 mana, yes please :)

---

Read back !
Echelon is playing 2 Pithing.

Yup, they're too versatile not to.

@NagsOn: Why should I care about a KotR/Wasteland lock..? My 7 basics give me all the mana I need. As for Mother of Runes - PtE while it's still summoning sick works perfectly, as do Golgari Charm and Pernicious Deed. No need for Pithing Needle in that MU.

Also, as an Elves! player - Pithing Needle on Wirewood Symbiote does not stop the Glimpse chain in the slightest and is very easily answered with GSZ -> Reclamation Sage. Seriously, it isn't even a speedbump.