[Deck] Solidarity

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Now, if you play in such a way where Murmurs from Beyond is your last card and you're banking on it drawing you gas, that's just not very smart, mostly because that's not what the card's for.

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Yeah, I know. I was talking about situations where you didn't plan on doing so, but your deck just hates you. I understand your point, I just don't like giving the opponent an option. ^^

I don't know which one is more important in this deck, CA or CQ, but since Impulse is already a 4-of wouldn't Forbidden Alchemy be at least discussion-worthy as an addition, since it does something similar (higher CMC, but fuels Snapcaster pretty hard). It lets you dig for the 4th land and is pretty useful mid-combo, to keep going and find the right card. The thread search didn't show any results and I'd like to know if the card is so easily dismissable in favor of Murmurs and even Thirst for Knowledge, as the first one provides CA and the latter lets you actually draw more than one card.

to answer that is simple: the deck cant be snapcaster dependent... 3 cards in grave is a waste! And yes Cardadvantaged is better cause it can include card quality...

I've been testing your list, Seraphus (just a few minor changes) and I'm really, really impressed. The only changes I have are 8 Fetchlands (instead of 6), -1 Opt, +1 Peek, and -2 Repeal for +1 Snapcaster Mage and +1 Snap. I'm still really high on 8 fetchlands, though I haven't had a whole lot of opportunity to test against a real opponent so I'm not sure about how much more vulnerable it makes me to Stifle and aggro decks, but it cleans up the goldfish a lot and does a lot to subtly fight fizzling, while only making me take 1-2 extra points of damage a game. The Peek/Opt split is not a sign that I've softened on Opt; I still think that in almost all other situations, there are better cards to use, but I'm trying out the singleton. I was running a full 4 Peek (which is still great) when I remembered the lesson I learned when I was developing lists with Visions of Beyond where there was no functional difference between running 3 or 4 of a cantrip since the deck draws so many cards that you're going to get all of the value out of just a 3 of. I would be running a Visions of Beyond, but since I cut the second Brain Freeze there's no reliable way to set it up or ensure that it draws me 3 when I need it to. So I could just as easily be playing one Disrupt main (which could still be right) but then there would be matchups where I would want to board it out and it makes me nervous to cut any 1-mana cantrips. So for now it's Opt, and I'm about 25 games into testing it. So far it's pretty irrelevant, which is to be expected as it's probably the most low-impact slot in the entire deck. The theory behind not running Repeal is that, by replacing it with Snapcaster Mage and Snap, the deck is fast enough where you don't need to use Repeal to stall the game in most situations, and of course Snap and Snapcaster Mage are much stronger when going off, as well as doing a decent job at stalling the game, though clearly not for as much value as Repeal.

The thing I'm happiest about is how much more efficient the deck is with one less Cunning Wish and Brain Freeze. It's always been the case where the Brain Freeze has been usable as an anti-fizzle measure, which is still a valid line of play, but by replacing it with actual good cards you are forced to make that play much less often as fizzling isn't really even something that happens anymore. The absolute only thing that I dislike about only having 2 Cunning Wish as opposed to 3 is that it slightly weakens the number of answers you have games 2 and 3 against decks where you'd want to leave a powerful card in the sideboard and wish for it, as you would often do against Dredge.

I think we are very rapidly approaching the optimal Solidarity build. Even as much as I love the card, I never quite appreciated how much Snapcaster Mage changes the deck, since a lot of it is pretty subtle and we don't want to make the deck too graveyard-dependent. It makes me wonder if it might be correct to move the 3rd Turnabout out of the SB and into the main (possibly in place of a Snap) to make the deck and sideboard that much less handcuffed by Cunning Wish, which would also make things less Snap dependent (as my build is a bit moreso than yours) which is always a good thing.

Your way of thinking isnt correct (in my point of view):

1 - goldfishing is like saying you are a sex god but you only masturbate... You need to interact with your op, learning when to play some cards and when not to play them or when to react in some way or simply hide your strategies...

2 - Repeal is 1 of the most important cards in this deck: It's an answer for almost every possible treat that your op can play, and never ever, really ever, combo earlier than you have to cause solidarity is that: patience and timing. beside that using repeal as a cantrip is amazing cause delaying an op is time walking (and time walking is power thats why the card is a power 9 :tongue: )... There's many more reasons not to cut repeal like the balance between repeal and snap regarding snapcaster...

3 - Snap removes treats, is a 2 cmc card that allow you to t2 bounce and use a 2nd spell... Turnabout isn't any of this things, it's just a tapper or untapper cmc 4 card...

btw my list was been remodeled so its no longer the one i posted...

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Originally Posted by Seraphus

goldfishing is like saying you are a sex god but you only masturbate

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Thanks for the new signature. ^^

...I sure hope you don't think I don't know how to play Solidarity against an opponent. You've been playing this deck for a long time, I've been playing it for longer. I've been playing so long that I know what to reasonably expect from a goldfish, and what to look for in goldfish games that will translate to actual games. Hence, when I say something that I've learned from repeated goldfishing, I can make a judgement as to how it will translate to an actual game situation. Peek/Opt/Visions of Beyond/Disrupt is a perfect example, as I can goldfish hundreds of games to determine how many of each card is actually optimal in the list, rather than just running the standard 2 Peek, 2 Opt that was in Gearhart's last list five years ago, which he arrived at simply because he liked Peek but also liked Opt. 3 Peek that I'm running now has proven to be the correct number in this deck for my playstyle as it ensures I will get a Peek off before beginning the combo turn a reliable percentage of the time, just as I would with 4 and much more reliably than 2. I would have never been able to reach that conclusion without hundreds of goldfished games.

I think it's a stretch to say that Repeal is one of the most important cards in the deck, given that I've been playing for years and have literally never had a Repeal in my 60. I am fully aware of what it can do for the deck, but Repeal doesn't do anything of substance against a combo player except sit there and look bad. It will do work in an aggro or control matchup, but there's no need to delay an aggro deck any longer when the deck reliably goes off on turn 4 (and I have Snap to do that, anyway), and against the control deck I'd much rather have the extra Snapcaster Mage than a random card off of Repeal. Solidarity has always been a deck about winning at the best possible moment, but it is not the case (and never has been) that the best possible moment is the last possible moment. More turns leads to more land drops and a better appreciation for what the opponent is trying to do, but the decks that give you that much time don't really exist anymore. Against modern Legacy decks, there will be many games where it will be easier to go off when the opponent taps out on turn 4 rather than waiting for them to threaten lethal on turn 6 with all of their mana available to them. Trying to wait out a Planeswalker, for instance, is a sure way to lose. The speed gains introduced by having Snap and Snapcaster Mage in the deck (over Repeal or Remand, which were what many decks were running pre-Snapcaster Mage) mean that you have much more control over when you choose to go off, rather than using purely defensive cards to drag the game out for as long as possible which was our only real choice when Snapcaster Mage didn't exist. I'd rather play good cards over inefficient cards that draw me good cards.

And of course I do recognize that Repeal will not show it's value AT ALL against a goldfish, but that's irrelevant to any of the points I've made. Given the choice, I will always choose to fight with the most efficient cards, rather than cards that only have value disrupting the opponent. If I were going to draw conclusions about interactive cards from a goldfish, I would have cut Force of Will long ago, and wouldn't even think of running Peek. My judgement of Repeal has nothing to do with goldfishing.

I do agree with you on Snap vs. Turnabout, excepting that in my list, I'd still have the same number of Snaps as you had in your last posted list, but running a 3rd Turnabout would free up a slot in the sideboard as well as decrease reliance upon Snap when trying to go off on your own turn. I guess from your list, it would be Repeal #2 or Turnabout #3. It was a passing thought that Turnabouts could play the same buy-a-turn role, while also increasing the reliability of the deck in more extreme situations. But I do feel that Snap provides more overall utility.

Oh Noble Solidarity master tell me how can you beat a deck like UGR post boarded? Or accordingly to you, clocking it fast enough?

Btw did I say anything about peek vs opt? Don't lecture me about solidarity history! Did you look at the legacy's current metagame? 8 fetch sucks... And as you mention the matter opt vs peek, I didnt split it cause of Gearhart's list, I split it cause now the deck can survive the missing of the 4th landdrop, there's no more clocks like zoo or wtv since the deck runs snapcaster. In my new build I understand that I was wrong on not include Remand. So you say you want to focus on a combo deck straight forward to simply combo and gg, but Solidarity isn't that kind of deck... Sorry if I offended you with the goldfish thing but believe me if you keep saying things about something just based on goldfish tests hum idk... :rolleyes:

If you want to I can completely describe in detail with justification on number and on purpose my solidarity list and why those are my 60+15 cards (one by one). You will see that I dont use cards just cause they are that way in other list.

Pump the brakes, dude.

RUG Delver hasn't really ever been a difficult matchup, and it is much easier now that we have Snap to bounce flipped Delver of Sercrets and Tarmogoyf. Just like old-school Threshold decks (before Meddling Mage was popular), it's largely a matchup where they either have lots of speed and little countermagic, or lots of countermagic and little speed, so you just play accordingly. It was more difficult when trying to use Remand because you lost tons of tempo and they'd just beat your face in, but that hasn't been my plan for more than a year. If I needed to tune the deck to beat RUG, I would include Twincast in the sideboard to fork your spells around their counterspells and to keep them from out-tempoing you too badly, as that is the single best card to have against them. But as it stands, it's not difficult to stall the deck until you can make 5-6 land drops, and winning from that point is largely academic. If they have every counterspell ever, you have Flusterstorm and Mindbreak Trap. If a deck can't beat RUG, then it doesn't deserve consideration in Legacy.

Now, if you're sitting around until the last possible moment, you're giving them lots of turns to find more countermagic with their Ponders and Brainstorms at which point you're probably not going to beat them. You have to be prepared to beat them when they tap out, which is what the new versions of Solidarity can do that the older ones (with Remand and Repeal and Cryptic Command and no Snapcaster Mage) could not.

8 Fetches suck? Have you even tried it, or are you just going off of a gut feeling? I ask because every list you've ever posted has had the stock 6 fetchlands. I have never lost to the opponent Stifling my fetches. Never. Come to think of it, I've never lost to a Stifle. It's pretty laughably easy to play around, especially in a deck with zero susceptibility to Wasteland. Frankly, I don't care how many Stifles are in the metagame, I'm certainly not going to make my deck actively worse because I'm afraid that my lands will get Stifled. Stifle hits 6 Fetchlands just about as easily as it hits 8. With 10 Islands, I have no issues hitting actual Islands if I need them, and it's usually pretty obvious when the opponent has a Stifle by the way they play. Or by the Peek I've cast. Playing around Stifle is probably one of the most basic skills to have in Legacy.

So you're running 2 Peek instead of a full 4 Opt because the deck can afford to miss a land drop? Did you actually test to see if that is the optimal number, or are you just using your gut again? Because, as I stated, so far my testing points towards 3 Peek/1 Opt being correct, and I had very few issues hitting lands number 3 and 4 with 4 Peek (or 4 Visions of Beyond, or 4 Disrupt) and 0 Opt. I have long documented just how bad Opt is, and hundreds and hundreds of games have made it pretty clear to me that, in the Opt/Peek/Visions/Disrupt slot, as long as a card says U: Draw a Card, it's doing it's job.

How exactly do you presume to beat a combo deck if your deck is clunky? You're opening yourself up to fizzling if you're running things like Repeal and Remand, as neither of those cards does much to slow down most combo decks. Are you just hoping to have more countermagic than they have discard? And if that's your plan, how do you enact that without further increasing the chances of fizzling by drawing too much countermagic when trying to go off?

I have played this deck for significantly longer than you have. I was playing it in 2006 when Gearhart first started placing with it. I don't disrespect the experience that you've gained with the deck (in fact, you are likely one of very few people around who I would consider to be a good player with this deck) so please do not disrespect mine. I remember when you first picked up the deck. You were snarky then, too. I had hoped you had mellowed in the last few years, but I guess not. I'm not really interested in getting into a pissing contest on the internet about my skills with a magic deck. My card choices are based on solid statistical examination tempered with a deep experience with the deck. I appreciate you for your willingness to question card choices that have long been set in stone, as that in turn leads me to ask statistical questions that I hadn't thought of before, but I'm not going to believe you just based on what you feel is correct when I have evidence to the contrary. If you have evidence or explanation, particularly card-by-card, by all means. I'm interested. Indulge me.

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Originally Posted by Seraphus

goldfishing is like saying you are a sex god but you only masturbate... You need to interact with your op,

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Best way to say it. LOL!

Ben, I am interested in your win/loss ratio against RUG Delver. Why do you even goldfish if you have the option to play online or at your local shop?
Theorycrafting is bullshit, put up some raw data man.

I've stopped playing Solidary a while ago in local tournaments but occasionally slam the High Tide on the table while with my playgroup.
Enough decks out there which are giving Soli a hard time! :cry:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "theorycrafting" in this context; I'm running about a hundred test games a week. I find testing online to be subpar practice for legit tournaments as the opponents are often just terrible, and all of my locals have grown tired of getting beaten by Solidarity and won't play me anymore, so I am left to this. The only real testing I get is when my test group decides to get together, usually in preparation for a big tournament, but that's pretty few and far between these days. So I use the tools I have available and draw conclusions based upon my years of experience at converting goldfishes to real opponents.

As for a ratio against RUG, I find that to be pretty pointless and misleading in general, and very misleading with this deck specifically. The odds of winning a match with this deck is completely about the relative skill levels and situational awareness of the two players playing. In testing, against most decks, when you run a match out 100 times it usually ends up getting close to 50/50 because both players learn what they have to do to win and both decks are capable of winning. It gives you a huge advantage against an opponent who is in the dark, but it's very difficult to consistently beat someone you play against all the time. That makes it pretty pointless to say "I'm 60/40 against this deck" or something like that. Let's just say it's been a while since I've lost to RUG in a tournament, though even that isn't a great measure since I've been playing UG Enchantress at the last few large tournaments.

Put it this way: the only decks I lose to consistently are very fast combo with some disruption (Reanimator, Tin Fins) or a very fast Counterbalance/Top. The reason for that is because both of those situations rob me of the ability to interact with the opponent and leverage my skill against them. The main reason why I'm thinking this deck could be fantastic right about now is because virtually every deck out there is a midrange deck and people haven't been running Entombs or Counterbalances nearly as much as they were a year ago. We'll see if that's still the case in three months when I'll next have the opportunity to go to a SCG Open...

@benthetenor, @Seraphus

Thanks for all the great postings in this thread. I've only partially read forward from page 51, but I've read back about a dozen pages from the current time.

I'm starting to goldfish the deck on MTGO, and will be taking it into dailies when I can't make it to my physical Legacy nights.

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Originally Posted by redsai

@benthetenor, @Seraphus

Thanks for all the great postings in this thread. I've only partially read forward from page 51, but I've read back about a dozen pages from the current time.

I'm starting to goldfish the deck on MTGO, and will be taking it into dailies when I can't make it to my physical Legacy nights.

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:wink:

Which list are you using?

I'm not finished with my current list because I'm not happy with the draw mechanic nor with the sb, but if you want I can show you the list ...

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Originally Posted by Seraphus

:wink:

Which list are you using?

I'm not finished with my current list because I'm not happy with the draw mechanic nor with the sb, but if you want I can show you the list ...

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I would love it if you would PM/Post your list


I started with this list (yours from before with the Singer's suggestions)

61-card Solidarity (oops extra island!)

1 brain freeze
4 Brainstorm
2 cunning wish
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 impulse
4 Meditate
2 murmurs from beyond
2 Opt
2 Peek
0 repeal
4 Reset
2 snap
4 snapcaster mage
2 turnabout

3 misty rainforest
2 scalding tarn
3 Polluted Delta
12 island


(Apologies for the alphabetical sorting, I was working out of Google Drive when importing into MTGO. Also, is [cards] is the only cardlinking tag?)

When you say the "Card Drawing" you mean this package?
(I put Wish in here, because Wish is everything you want, if you plan ahead.)

Digging and Drawing (20)

4 Brainstorm
2 Opt
2 Peek
4 impulse
4 Meditate
2 murmurs from beyond
2 Cunning Wish


If Murmurs from beyond is such a good card, why aren't you running 3/3 meditate/murmur and using Cunning Wish as access to your 4th Meditate? (Or running 3/2/3 Med/Mur/Cun)

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Originally Posted by redsai

I would love it if you would PM/Post your list


I started with this list (yours from before with the Singer's suggestions)

61-card Solidarity (oops extra island!)

1 brain freeze
4 Brainstorm
2 cunning wish
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 impulse
4 Meditate
2 murmurs from beyond
2 Opt
2 Peek
0 repeal
4 Reset
2 snap
4 snapcaster mage
2 turnabout

3 misty rainforest
2 scalding tarn
3 Polluted Delta
12 island


(Apologies for the alphabetical sorting, I was working out of Google Drive when importing into MTGO. Also, is [cards] is the only cardlinking tag?)

When you say the "Card Drawing" you mean this package?
(I put Wish in here, because Wish is everything you want, if you plan ahead.)

Digging and Drawing (20)

4 Brainstorm
2 Opt
2 Peek
4 impulse
4 Meditate
2 murmurs from beyond
2 Cunning Wish


If Murmurs from beyond is such a good card, why aren't you running 3/3 meditate/murmur and using Cunning Wish as access to your 4th Meditate? (Or running 3/2/3 Med/Mur/Cun)

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thank god some reliable discussion.

Your questions are very interesting to answer:

why not meditate on sb? I dont like to pay 6 for draw 4, but mostly because I want the deck to function focused on md and not on wish board, leaving cwish to be a troubles solver, leaving sb to be a wishable sb but a consistent toolbox of hate.
I like (since many here like to talk about percentages) that 40% of my 60 cards deck either cantrip (draw a card when played) or card draw/card advantage which means 24 cards which are varied into 4 bs, 1 opt and 3 peek with cmc=1 (peek returns as the most important card again pre combo), cmc=2: 4 impulse, 2 remand; cmc=3: 4 meditate and cards of variable cmc (xcmc): 2 repeal, 1 BSZ. (yes yes ill explain it later). + all this you have snapcaster (and this guy and not cunning wish, can be anything - even a winconn xD i already kill some people with this 2/1 dude "a l'attak").

In the mage case there's alot to think about and to understand since it is the card that change the power of solidarity, and also it opens room for some hate grave effectiveness vs solidarity, so think with me: 1 - the deck is about building such chain of cards that in the end your op dies (or get borred, that can happen too!), 2 - the deck is the only legacy midrange between control and combo ("I control to combo") only vintage decks are able to function like this, and 3 - snapyboy cant do something alone, alone he is just a goldfisher... JK... So as i told 24 (40%) cards with draw capacity is the ideal i have 21+ 3 mages (4 mages would be too much cause many times with repeal+snap you only need 1 snapcaster believe me).

You guys seem to be alergic to repeal, so Im just going to tell you a few things that the card does that no other card can do: 1 - delver x = 0, means 1 mana draw bounce a treat; 3 cmc= bounce counterbalance, plus a large number of clocks (creatures that keep going to suck your life away), another 1 cmc draw kill: the token from BUTTerskull, and do you guys know why I drop murmur? simply cause of a nice ugly dude called deathrite shaman that can be solved by repeal (oh imagine that! - Now all the ubber clever more experienced players will come to say is "oh I deal fine with deathrite!!" - i say congratz, but give me a report of tournament and we will talk...) but deathrite is too strong to play murmur wait and reuse the card, yes its card advantaged but no in the current meta it will give more reasons to board in antigrave cards.

Btw on Murmurs: yes the card is a viable candidate, so ask Jacob from LOST (LOOL bare with me its 3 am here), but we would have to adapt a game play that i believe in this current metagame isnt affordable to us.

Tan tan tan taaaaaaaaaaann I'll soon reveal my deck list, but before that I need to explain the first lesson on solidarity: NEVER try to combo fast (unless a very peculiar and unique conditions demand you to or allow you to do it) - Delay your combo keep the field balanced (again: Repeal, remand, snapcaster, spy on your op - by peeking into his hand - understand what when and which things to counter bounce or when to really combo - in do time you will gain enough experience to understand some of the strategies that solidarity has to its disposal... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha Ready this, I'm not kidding!

Lands
12 [ROE] Island

try to have but if you cant its multiple kinds of fetchs but if you cant its fine, the remote ideia of needling a fetch is so insane that it hurts LOL, although it happens so just repeal it into the crappy place it comes and break all the fetchs

2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage: as I said 3 is enough cause its in terms of probability strong enough to find one and not to draw it and say "damn it its not this i need now" - remember 2xsnap + 2xrepeal = you can use 1 snapyboy to generate mana (if you have 2 high tides played) or to draw card and reuse snapydude again. Its this sexy dude that alllow you to 3rd turn kill (but not really with my new build cause I do not have BF in MD)


// Spells
4 [TE] Meditate: 4 of this makes the fizzle rate lower and the draw more effective, don't use this only during combo or as a 2nd card to combo because many times you can start to combo with a meditate


3 [OD] Peek remember: it finds land if needed, but trough out the game it can be vital, getting intel on "can I go or can´t I", many times its amazing the chemestry between remand, or flusterstorm or even the "bait fake combo" (something you learn to do just to make your op to waste resources)


1 [IN] Opt sometimes to dig for a land is better, midcombo is better than peek and because 8x 1 cmc card is needed


4 [FNM] Brainstorm best cantrip in legacy: best combo with impulse and fetch lands


4 [FNM] Impulse its the best digger to find land clean the top, if necessary start the combo with it in case you dont have a meditate because its easy to reuse it with snapy


3 [AL] Force of Will: why did I reduce this to 3? Oh, I love this part because "specialists" wont agree, FoW is a necessary evil (always 2 per 1), but look arround the metagame and tell me where does the single flusterstorm isnt better counter than it? Stompy and enchantress? Stompy -> rebuild is and auto win, mindbreack trap stops the speed freak 1 turn rape you thing that they do plus remand snap and repeal, and you can side in dismember to kill idiots golems... Enchantress try to bounce their stupid accelaration and remand their things that you will see how fast they loose their nerve... Now you can ask me why not split 2 FoW 2 Fluster, you can do that but I dont advice doing it cause FoW is more all arround and sometimes you want to stop a creature or wtv...


1 [CMD] Flusterstorm: Best counter ever for solidarity, remember that many times your op will not pay 1 single copy of it so you can remand it, its a counter reusable by snapy, its a counter uncounterable. Why only 1 of? Read Ritzka instructions on the first page and you will see that he instruct you to use the cantrips to build the perfect hand to combo, Flusterstorm many times will be required to be part of that hand... cantrip to it if you are fighting RUG or BUG or even Omminitell - btw want a trick to defeat omminitell easy? Use Snapy to clock him and counter everything it will be a long game slightly unfavoured to us in 1st game.



2 [UL] Snap: another card that now gives the potential of turn 3 combo - I STRONGLY RECOMMEND NOT TO DO IT LIGHTLY (its always needed 2x HT) -but more important, related to snap, is the fact that it reduces the fizzle rate that the deck used to have by perfectly combine with snapydude, however it only produce real mana when 2 HT are active. Can Function as a bouncer to other creatures, remember it DOES NOT cantrip.


2 [GP] Repeal: a mechanical cantrip, it delays op clocks, it deals with dangerous permanents, its has a good synergy with snapcaster.


2 [FNM] Remand: its similar to repeal with some bonus - 1 if you dont need to combo or if u can recast a spell being countered its easy counter your own spell you will loose 0 cards and cantrip 1


2 [US] Turnabout: Remember this is not an untapper its also a tapper it can gain a turn, also its a untapper playable on your turn, combine with snapy and snap makes solidarity a really instant killing machine by combo in your own turn...


4 [FE] High Tide Its a cool card if someone trys to ban it ill buy all high tides and travel to WoTC and do a Harry Potter scene (that one with the owls)

2 [JU] Cunning Wish: watch this! "oh jezz now we dont have brian freeze!!!" Or "Oh my god what an idiot, no meditate on sb no freeze on main only 2 wishes!" Cunning wish new functions on solidarity 101: 1 - it get the win con (2x win con now), and 2 eventually is used to get a card that you need to deal with something in case of emergency because the main deck is completly strengthen now!


4 [ME3] Reset the stronger unttaper ever the end...


1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith: once uppon a time there was a card named flash of insight it was so good that it turned another card (brain freeze) into a tutor basically; but then the even witch came and brought a card named Snapcaster Mage (made by a portuguese guy that is a very nice guy btw), and that Snapy card is better than FoI so FoI went to cry in some dark corner of my portefoio (i actually have 3, 1 foil, 1 sign and 1 normal) - as FoI become depressed and needed to be retired Brain Freeze becames simply the card that kill and so cames this also new adition (BSZ replaced stroke because stroke had a stroke when used and went to grave and BSZ doesnt have strokes and keep being alive)... Enough with the stupid jokes: BSZ is another form of Card Advantaged, its also a win con and ITS REUSABLE!!

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 2 [PLC] Piracy Charm
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 2 [NPH] Dismember
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap



Tomorrow or when I feel like it I'll finish my 101 here, notice that 1 card is missing from my sb you can either add the 2nd BF or a nouxious revival in case snapcaster goes to grave... Feel Free to comment, any comment going in a way of a goldfish or wtv so I say this will be ignored. Moreover I dont do things because my guts say so, there wasnt 1 single legacy league that i played that i didn't top4, i play this deck only, but to train this deck i play with other decks i use proxies writing directly on the card and then sleeve them up, meaning I'm always up to date with the metagame except if for profissional reasons I stay away from mtg. Any critics (constructive and well argued) will be very well received! start reviving soli!!! =P

I hope I didn't upset you with the "gut feeling" comment; I was just commenting on the fact that I hadn't seen you test with any of the suggestions that I'd posted at any time. I have no doubt that you test everything you put out there, but I also know that if you are as "allergic" to goldfishing as you seem, there are some things you'll never figure out simply because you won't be able to get in enough games looking specifically at small things. I am glad to see you trying out the 3/1 Peek/Opt split, as I think it's stronger than a 2/2.

I came to the same conclusion as you about Murmurs from Beyond. I'm very excited about it as a card and it gives a lot of reach against discard spells which is something that is nice to have, but it also makes us that much weaker to graveyard hate which is something that could actually become a problem, particularly when everyone is running Deathrite Shaman.

One thing I noticed while testing with just one Brain Freeze which I did not end up liking is that it made the deck combo very smoothly, but it severely limited the ability to win small. What I mean by that is, usually by the time that you found a singleton Brain Freeze, you'd already drawn most of your deck and won the game. Very rarely were you in a situation where you could win without drawing most of your deck. That worries me because it opens you up to fizzling a little bit if things don't go perfectly, whereas with a 2 Brain Freeze list you're much more likely to see Brain Freeze mid-combo (rather than at the end, when you've basically already won) which means it's more likely that you can just Brain Freeze them out, perhaps doubling it with a Snapcaster Mage if you need to, without worrying about bricking on a big draw spell. This version, which goes further in that direction and basically turns Cunning Wish into a kill spell first and a tool-box spell second, would only exacerbate the situation. Though again, the deck functioned perfectly fine with only a single Brain Freeze and likely will function fine with 0 main, I was just...uncomfortable with how it made the deck feel. Brain Freeze also has undeniable utility in functioning as an anti-fizzling measure which, even if unnecessary most of the time, is still more versatile than Blue Sun's Zenith, if only because you can cast it for much less mana if the mana is tight. There has always been a discussion about a maindeck Stroke effect vs maindeck Brain Freeze, and I see no real reason why the old ideas about it have changed, but again, it's not something I've tested, just something I'm thinking about off the top of my head.

I guess the main thing is that I don't often use Brain Freeze as just a kill card, I usually use it to strengthen Brainstorm, to power up Visions of Beyond and to beat Counterbalance, as well as to use it as a tutor in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage. If you find it to be mainly just a kill card (not that you don't ever use it to do any of those other things, but just most of the time) then I can see why you like to trim the numbers, but for me it just does a lot of things to make bad situations better, all without actually wasting a space since it is the way we beat them.

I do still very much like the 4 Meditate main, as I have run a very large number of games and, while I have hit the occasional one where I'd love to be able to wish for a Meditate, I have not yet lost because I couldn't do that. It has greatly improved the consistency of the deck to have 4 of one of the best cards main, rather than in the sideboard, and it has streamlined things very much to not have to waste a Wish trying to find it.

Great discussion. Thanks for all your insights!


If we are going to play 4 Meditate main, would it make sense to add 1-2 Peer Through Depths to the main deck, to help find it? I know some people used to play a few maindeck to improve consistency.

It would also helps find High Tide. I hate it when I am unable to find High Tide while my opponent beats me to death... I know you can start the combo without it, but it's a lot less stable...

One problem with PTD: Snapcaster Mage is a creature, so you cannot take it.


Another solution to the "finding high tide" problem is 4 Cunning Wish and 3 High Tide MD / 1 High Tide SB, but I hate losing one SB slot, and it's weird to up the Cunning Wish number to 4 while others are reducing it to 2.

There's no point in reducing the MD High Tide count while increasing the number of Cunning Wishes, because it results in a higher chance to fizzle and with 4 HT and the amount of cantrips you are already pretty likely to find one in time. It's just not good to rely on Wishes to start the combo, because they already cost 3 mana and your opponent knows what to expect to some extent.

@Seraphus
I am not 100% sure what you mean by 'the deck is the only legacy midrange between control and combo ("I control to combo")', but that's what Spiral Tide does in my opinion too. Play dig&control and then combo off.

' btw want a trick to defeat omminitell easy? Use Snapy to clock him and counter everything it will be a long game slightly unfavoured to us in 1st game. '
Countering everything is easier said than done, as they play more free counters and Defense Grids in the Sideboard. A Snapcaster won't be enough to race them in most games. As you have played much more matches, is it really just slightly unfavourable?

Looking at your sideboard, what's the Piracy Charm for?

Thanks for the information, I am intrigued to try Repeal and bring back some numbers of Remand.

I've tested Seraphus's list with murmurs of beyond in a quick game against deadguy ale. I did like the feeling of it, but then I wondered...

MoB make us more vulnerable to gravehate, and have good sinergies with snapcaster mage. Then why don't we play Intuition instead? Isn' it better since we choose the cards we want? Does the shuffle effect is why you may prefer MoB? Intuition was discuss in this thread and I belive Silent Requiem proposed a very interesing decklist with it. I remember goldfishing it and being impressed.

@H3llsp4wn. Piracy charm may be there in order to deal with delver or Bob...

Hey everyone. I've played Solidarity in the past (however briefly and not optimally) and I played Spiral Tide for quite some time, and I'm looking to put this deck back together. I'm currently playing Belcher and Dredge, but I want to have some real fun.

I've been reading some recent pages, and I've come up with the following list:

Mainboard:
1x Brain Freeze
4x Brainstorm
3x Cunning Wish
4x Force of Will
4x High Tide
4x Impulse
4x Meditate
4x Peek
1x Repeal
4x Reset
3x Snap
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Turnabout
1x Twincast

12x Island
6x Fetch Lands

Sideboard:
1x Brain Freeze
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
3x Flusterstorm
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Ravenous Trap
1x Rebuild
1x Snap
1x Stroke of Genius
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Turnabout

I would appreciate any and all feedback, and I thank everyone in advance.

Edit: I'm thinking about going down to 2x Cunning Wish. I suppose the best replacement would be a 2nd Repeal. Also considering a Twincast in my sideboard, too.

wow after all there's life on solidarity thread!! :smile:

So many questions....
Where to start... Well simply putting it BF out of the maindeck just means this (regarding to BF as a wincon): USE THE WISH loool

Use BSZ as a card drawer or even a cantrip not as a wincon, but notice that some times you can easily kill people with it (use and abuse of snapcaster on high tide and on reset). wincon= cunnning+bf. eventually BSZ...

Spiral tide doesnt control the board, they ignore clocks (like goyfs and etc) cause they can combo faster than us - they can clock the op -, but they can´t be as flexible and so much "all arround" as Soli is... (BTW I would like to change the deck name!!! LOOOL) The spiral deck works as ant but instead of discard they counter things.

murmurs vs intuition: My intuition says intuition is intuitive bad LOOOOOOOOOL jk. Imagine this: "oh god 3rd turn i need a ht cause Ill be raped on turn 4, so ill play intuition for 3x high tide" even if you don't do this play (the 3 of a kind) It will have to pass to snapcaster so it wont be a good idea specially when you will play in a way to finding chains of high tides, meditates and resets.

the 4x wish is answered (and yes wish only adds cmc to cards its not necessary, its a problem solver its that guy that in the mafia they call to deal with problems eventually it kills the op LOOL)

Peer through depths: no land, no snapydude to weak no space for it.

Piracy charm: do you ever face thalia + mother + canonist? they can mount the circus there, and beat you with a fast clock... + deathrite guy is a badass... You can see the targets of the charm... better than fow it or effective since they have that land that gives uncounter to creatures.... yes I guess you can kill delver bob and vendilion too but in rug match the sb gets in so many cards that I would know if it really compensates getting 2 more.

btw I still cant figure the damn 15th card on my sb...