you wont win against s&t decks/reanmiater without humility. Im even playing it MD because my meta is so full of em stupid emrakul decksQuote:
Originally Posted by CRich3
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you wont win against s&t decks/reanmiater without humility. Im even playing it MD because my meta is so full of em stupid emrakul decksQuote:
Originally Posted by CRich3
Brainstorm isn't a turn 1-4 card. You can't cast it effectively in that time frame without incurring some sort of penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Additionally, I think many of us have noticed that Nic Fit has evolved into a Control-Combo deck. Just look at the most successful versions: Yosei-Lock, Thragtusk Loop, Scapeshift. The deck is slow and grindy so you need an auto-win button sometimes. The problem with BUG isn't the lack of filtering, it's the lack of a stable win. Attacking with 6 drops is great but you need to have be ahead to just play a creature who doesn't impact it like Sun Titan. This is why I liked the Future Sight win since it was both a filtering technique and a win condition. Grave Titan, the previous herald win condition of the archetye, has completely departed from most versions of the deck.
I still prefer the Planeswalker "lock" for BUG, having a Jace + Karn (+ Garruk/Vraska) online usually will get you a win quite fast.
I strongly agree with Timur here. I also remember an article that Carsten Kotter put up on SCG where he referenced Nic Fit specifically with regards to his hybridization theory. Nic Fit has a questionable aggro plan (until 5-drops happen), but it has a strong control element and the versions that are winning are doing so through combos increasingly more. That said, I certainly think that there is still room for the straight control/straight aggro/whatever versions of the deck -- obviously Qweerios is having a fair amount of success with his BUG Control build, and people have played the Rock style lists to good finishes as well. But adding in the presence of a combo fundamentally improves the deck, IMO. I think that technically I would go with Midrange Combo-Control as a descriptor, but that's arguing semantics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
Also, RE Humility -- trust me, it hurts the deck whose only win conditions are Griselbrand and Emrakul a whole hell of a lot more than it hurts us. Yeah, it does, but beating those decks down with 1/1s is perfectly acceptable. You don't have to be Efficient or Powerful to beat Emrakul decks. You just need to be a dick.
I've contemplated some kind of Bant deck w/ Pongify. Probably just a fun one (giving yourself a 3/3 + 2 lands probably not as good as taking an opponents card(s) + 2 lands) but it seems amusing :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
I don't think Nic Fit is too packed to include Brainstorm. A question I've received a lot lately from different users has been regarding the kind of core BUG fit oughts to have. I gave them all the same answer:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Pernicious Deed
2-3 Sensei's Divining Top
2-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2-3 Island
1-2 Swamp
This leaves 10 cards for the maindeck. With those 10 cards you have to choose a recursion engine, some bombs, some form of targeted removal, and/or a package (Trinket, Gifts, Intuition, Prime Titan + Lands). It is true that the core is heavy (50 cards!), but finding 10 slots to play around with was no small feat.
Concerning Brainstorm, I can tell you from experience that if it is in my opener, it's coming out on T2-3 coupled with a Therapy and followed by an Explorer shortly thereafter. It is also the best topdeck you can have. For those who don't understand that notion, what's better than the perfect topdeck? 3 of them, during the same turn. If I could Brainstorm every turn, I wouldn't need Top or Jace at all. However, those are the closest cards to BS #5-8. While playing Nic Fit, I am drooling at the idea of being taxed 1 mana for the entire duration of the game if I can get a BS each turn.
You cannot argue against Brainstorm on the basis of a mana curve. You have a curve because you start the game with 7 cards and draw 1 per subsequent turns. Assuming this is how the game flows, you need to have a good balance of lands and spells so that you can empty your hand as efficiently as possible. However, when you accelerate 3 draw steps and fix 2 bad draws in a single turn for 1 mana, you are making a stupidly efficient play that breaks the established conventions of how a mana curve is established. Having cards like Brainstorm in your deck also virtually increases the size of your sideboard.
Also, GSZ isn't a 1-drop, it's a 2-4 CMC card at the lowest, exactly how Snapcaster Mage isn't a 2-drop...
So far I've mainly used Pongify as:
-Instant Explorer sac outlet (often grabs me 2 islands for a Counterspell);
-Response to removal on my own creatures (especialy relevant with Thragtusk);
-Combat trick (block + Pongify, Pongify + block, declare attackers + Pongify, etc.);
-Targeted removal (especialy relevant with Jace, and/or against Islandwalk lords... f***ing Mangara)
I don't know why you would pongify your thragtusk unless you needed 2 blockers. However, I have begun testing it because Qweerios says it's legit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
The main PRO of pongify is instant speed 1cmc removal in decks without white.
It deals with every creature in the format except for Emrakul, Progenitus, Etched Champion, hexproof/shroud (same as STP)
It turns flying creatures into ground creatures (Delver, Tombstalker).
It turns high cmc creatures (Tombstalker) into 0cmc creatures (for deed).
It combos with Jace bounce.
It can be used as a fog.
It can give you an emergency blocker.
Additional sac outlet. Attack with witness, kill witness, recur witness with stronghold next turn, attack for 3.
It can save your own creatures from being exiled.
Still has uses against non-creature decks game 1
Cons
It gives your opponent a 3/3 token
I'm not on board with it yet as I'm still testing, but to outright dismiss it because it seems silly is, well, silly.
I mean, all of those are completely negated by the fact that you're playing black. The cute little plays it can manage are just that, cute. Replacing a 4/5 or 5/5 or 7/7 with a 3/3 leaves you staring down a 3/3 that you STILL need to blow your Deed for when all you needed was Ghastly Demise. Giving yourself endless Witnesses is neat, but you're getting into the territory of win-more if you're pulling off this play.
The ability to kill your Explorers off is cute, but that play must be weighed against the other more useful possibilities that the slot could be used for.
I'd like to see how others feel about it in testing, since killing explorers definitely has merit. At the same time, you wonder why we just don't play Beast Within since it has about the same result while expanding the targets at the expense of 3cc
Playing this deck do you ever have a problem staring down a 3/3 with no evasion? The only 3 power creature I have a hard time dealing with is a turn 1 or 2 flipped delver. If it's on the ground I can handle it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
Also, ghastly demise would probable be better for this deck if we didn't eat (ooze) and/or flashback a bunch of cards.
Ghastly Demise is a placeholder for a removal spell that actually removes creatures. Regardless, I don't know about you, but I only ooze in emergencies and I'm not aware of any flashback besides Therapy...I don't see anything else the core list Qweerios posted or any other list around there. Maybe Chainer's Edict?
You can say all you want about creatures not being an issue, but hell, RUG Delver is a deck that just took down an SCG and its most consistently important creature is a 3/3. Once you start to put cards in your deck as removal that require you to 2-1 yourself to get rid of anything, your deck is moving the wrong direction. Especially considering that there is a whole deck to fight to go with that 3/3, and you (the control deck) just burned a spell to replace a creature with another sizeable creature so you're likely having backwards momentum already.
Let's take a look at the cards that can deal with the 3/3 from Qweerios's BUG list a few pages back:
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk (dies)
1 Acidic Slime (dies)
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (-1 counter)
1 Vraska the Unseen (-3 counters)
First, note all of the x1's for the sake of consistency. There are also Explorers and Witnesses to chump it, or if you prefer you can 3-1 yourself to Pognify then double block to completely remove the creature.
Thrun is good but you're wasting his blocking slot on the counterattack (or maybe Thrun can't swing your turn to kill Jace because they conveniently have a blocker), Thragtusk loses his first life, Slime dies, Ooze requires a set up to not die, blowing Deed on one token is embarrassing, and your walkers lose value to take up the slack of another card. Especially Vraska, that's 3 turns you just lost on her. Or 2 if you use her +1 and they swing and connect.
We've already heard the self-uses of Pognify, so maybe that's worth it, of which I'm only concerned with Explorer because Pog+Thragtusk is very, very situational and even then has horrible synergy with Deed. I don't know, I haven't tested it, but trying to say that it is useful as a removal spell in the BUG set up is a losing battle.
Pongify isn't meant as a removal spell, it's an Explorer sac outlet. I was hesitating between Innocent Blood and Pongify and I opted for the latter because it isn't a dead card nearly as often as IB. It isn't a spell you use proactively on your own creatures aside from Explorer because that's just plain card disadvantage. With Pongify, I swing with my Explorers and Pongify them on my opponent's end step. The simple fact that you can play Explorer on T2 and bait StP (or not) to eventually Pongify EoT and have 5 mana availlable T3 with an attacking 3/3 is worth it over IB IMO. It is rarely a removal spell unless the game is well advanced and I need to clear the board. Then it becomes a desperation move, but it is still an option nonetheless. When I am up against a creature-light deck, I apreciate that my Explorers turn into Delvers while they ramp me into counterspells and/or discard spells.
Any thoughts on Declaration of Naught? Or is it too fragile/inconsistent/color-intensive to use?
Yeah, I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it (sorry if it came off that way). Good work at the tournament, and the next time you're under the lights (there will be a next time!) you'll be more confident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick777
I know it is not the best choice in the current meta, but what do you think about GBW without Rector package? I've had this deck long abandoned and I'm planning to play this weekend but have a lot of hilarious ideas :tongue:
(Current meta)
RUG: 20%
UGx Miracle: 15%
Maverick: 10%
Show and tell: 10%
GBW, goblins, reanimator: 5%
Rest(less than 5%): 40%
- Restoration angel: As a singleton, in a build full of ETB creatures (finks, Eternal witness, thragtusk, primeval and grave titans...)
- Increase the discard suite with 2 duress or 2 thoughtseize for the best blue decks (45%)
- Primeval titan, Sun Titan, Grave Titan: What would be the best finisher?
- Extraction effect maindeck as a 2 of. Usefull in all 4 best decks (rug = -1/3 of wincons, Miracle = - 1/2 of wincons, maverick = - reliquary, show and tell = -show and tell or emrakul)
Edit to include my list:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
2 Innocent Blood
2 Cranial Extraction
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
Thinking in: -1 Sun Titan -Swords to plowshares +1 Restoration Angel +1 Pernicious Deed. Or +1 Primeval Titan and change 2 lands for 2 Treetop village
Any help will be appreciated.
I don't think white has anything to offer if you discard Rector. The 3rd color isn't worth it when you consider the poor changes it brings to the list:
-Sun Titan is trash compared to Prime and Grave;
-StP is worst than IB and/or Pulse for this deck;
-Vindicate isn't strictly superior to Pulse;
-Baneslayer Angel is worst than Thragtusk in 99% of cases, and you can't use the Moat excuse;
-Sigarda is fine...
So yeah, without Rector, straight GB Nic Fit is better.
Also, Karn vs. Vraska, what do you guys think?
Karn v Vraska really just comes down to either pay 2 more mana for the exile disruption and vindicate or pay 2 less for a maelstrom pulse on a stick. Which is, despite my one sided wording, is a legitimate concern. My preference is for Karn though, simply because he exiles stuff in graveyard loving format (such as threshold, dredge, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
EDIT: Also: finally decided on a list to finally build. And yes: I'm running 4 Brainstorm.
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Arbor Elf
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Negate
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Karn Liberated
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
And as a tip for how your curve will actually look like when factoring in X spells like GSZ, go to deckstats.net, uncheck "Merge lines with the same card name", and then put each individual cost that you would use for that card.
An example of what my curve looks like after factoring in multiple GSZ targets: http://deck.tk/1I8T7Mqq
I think Negate is always sideboard material & Arbor Elf seems very underwhelming in a deck with 4 Deeds, Rusalka is a sac-outlet at least...
@Vraska/Karn: I think it depends on the deck version. Karn is better in general but too expensive most of the time without extra acceleration in Sakura Tribe Elder/Wood Elves. So I would never play more than 1 Karn.
I thought about playing 1 Karn/2 Vraska in straight GB, while I would play only Vraska(1) in the other builds. BUG already has Jace TMS & Scapewish doesn't really need PWs..
Yes, maybe you're right, this build doesn't give anything compared to straight GB, but I remember when I tried GB list in the past it was underwhelming for me. Anyway, thanks for the input.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
@Karn vs Vraska -- Karn is the stronger card by far, but he's a 7-drop, and even for Nic Fit, 7 is pushing it. That said, Vraska can come down on turn 2 with the Tower opening, which seems absolutely devastating to me. I think that the best way to think about it is 0-2 Vraska, 0-1 Karn. If you're on a heavy PW build, I could see 1 and 1, or even 2 Vraska and 1 Karn -- Vraska being cheaper matters when you need to protect your other PWs -- which is something Vraska does pretty well. If you only have one slot open, it depends on your other 60 cards...but I'd be inclined to give the slot to Karn over Vraska.
@Soiber -- You're missing something very good that white gives you for Rock (as is Qweerios): Armada Wurm. I won't say that it's a "reason to go white," but it's probably second only to Sigarda on the list of what non-Rector white gives you. Also, I take slight offense to Qweerios' Sun Titan comment, even as I don't -necessarily- disagree. It all depends on how your list is set up. I don't like Grave Titan in this deck anymore, so I'm throwing that out right now. There are definitely compelling arguments on behalf of Prime Time, but I hesitate to say that it's clearly better than Sun. Sun + Witness or Sun + Deed has won me more games than I really care to count, and that's in an area where I've been doing this for over a year now and people are prepared for it. It still wins games despite their preparation. Sun Titan has a very serious problem, though, in that it can't be Green Sunned -- you need an Empath to "speed bump" to it, which is not something you want in a Rock version. It's fine for Rector because I have more than enough tricks to abuse the Empath, but it's not something you need. To that end, I'm inclined to agree with Qweerios and say you don't want Sun. I'd probably set up a Rock version something like this:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Trostani, Selesnya's Voice
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
2 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Armada Wurm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Stirring Wildwood
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
//sb
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
3 Extirpate
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Krosan Grip
2 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize
I literally just whipped this up sitting here typing, so I can't like tell you "yes it's good," or anything like that. It's where I would start if I were looking into a Rock-based approach, though.
A few notes....
For what you want it to do, you still need some number of Swords to Plowshares. I've tried Innocent Blood in white-based lists, and it doesn't work as well as you want -- if RUG has a flipped Delver and a 1/1 Goose, and you Innocent Blood, guess what they're going to get rid of. In almost every case, you want to get rid of the Delver, because if nothing else you can always chump the Goose until you draw out of whatever hole you're in. The fact that Swords targets is actually pretty important, sadly. It might well be better just as a 2nd Abrupt Decay, but I like to diversify my removal in Nic Fit. As Qweerios notes, Vindicate isn't strictly better than Pulse, but I like a 1-1 split in these kinds of decks, because they hit different things. Vindicate can kill lands, whereas Pulse can't, which is especially relevant for you, since you don't have a Rector package to find Faith's Fetters. Keep in mind that Eternal Witness (the original Snapcaster Mage) means you essentially have 3 copies of each of these removal spells...up to endless with Nightmare active.
I still like Nightmare in this deck. There is a sufficient creature density that you'll always have things to sac to Diabolic Intent to fish it up, and this deck doesn't really -need- to have Nightmare like Rector does...it's much more of a potent mid/late bomb in this version, as opposed to something that we're actively trying to break. You don't need it early, but it's always something you'll be looking for with Top and/or Intent.
No Rector means no Moat, which means Thrun is acceptable again. He's still awfully small, but he does good work vs the blue decks in the format. Yeah, they can Terminus him, but you run 4x Green Suns -- every creature in this deck is green, so I can totally get behind a 4-of here. You can dig him out again, or just re-establish with Sigarda. Miarcles doesn't like having to deal with Thrun and Sigarda in succession. No Moat makes Armada Wurm your finisher of choice, especially with Nightmare and Trostani, both of which break the Wurm in half.
Speaking of Trostani, I don't actually know how good she is in practice yet. She's very high on my list of things that I want to test, but I haven't gotten a chance to do so yet. She seems straight busted in this deck, with Tusk tokens, Master tokens, and Wurm tokens to populate...and plenty of things coming into play to gain a ton of life with. The amount of lifegain is one reason why I opted for Thoughtseize over Duress -- most games you're going to be well over 30 life, even vs aggro decks. You can afford to pay the life. I wanted to put in something like a Skeletal Scrying or a Greed...something to take advantage of that lifegain...but there ended up not being room, and you want to abuse your 'yard with Nightmare/Witness, not exile it to draw cards. Still, she's a very solid 4-drop. At 2/5 she can wall off RUG's ground-pounders for quite a while, while gaining you life to undo the damage dealt by flipped Delvers. She also blocks Batterskull forever, and if you get into a stalled board state, she'll allow you to totally take over with even just 1 token of any kind. She's theoretical, but I think she's worth a look.
The pair of Tribe-Elders are here because the deck has a fair number of higher creature drops, but also because your main avenue to attack combo decks is the Extraction effects, which are 4-drops. Also, they've just impressed me a lot in practice - they're a solid backup ramp engine for when you can't get an Explorer to go off, they help the Nightmare plan, and they color fix should you need it.
The mana base is pretty much straight ported from Rector -- you don't need the 2nd Tower, so I put in the Stirring Wildwood on a lark. That could be anything, really. Wildwood is tech that's been forgotten with time...it's still a dual land that makes a 3/4 reach...3/4, of course, being bigger than Delver and Goose, and out of Bolt range. Coming into play is a hefty drawback, and there isn't like a Primeval to find it or anything...but I think it's a respectable choice to test out and see how it works.
Sideboard is fairly industry-standard...nothing too exciting there. Carpets are still all-stars, Extraction effects (which I bumped up to 3 due to the lack of the Rector bullets) are control and combo breakers, Extirpates help there too while combating graveyard decks, Thoughtseizes give you some more early game vs combo and come in on the play vs control, Damnation is the best vs aggro/tribal decks (which won't likely bring in Teeg vs this deck), Grip is a solid catch-all for Stoneblade and Omniscience, or any random.dec you run into.
Horizon Canopy for draw power with Eternal Witness?
Also, I don't really fear creauture spells as I do Show and Tell, Goblin Charbelcher, Dread Return, etc. Hence the negate over counterspell. I'd prefer Flusterstorm, since Blue based combo has to invest more counterspells to protect their combo, but that lacks the same coverage.
Eh who knows: I just might try mana leak or rune snag.