Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Yup, they're too versatile not to.
@NagsOn: Why should I care about a KotR/Wasteland lock..? My 7 basics give me all the mana I need. As for Mother of Runes - PtE while it's still summoning sick works perfectly, as do Golgari Charm and Pernicious Deed. No need for Pithing Needle in that MU.
Also, as an Elves! player - Pithing Needle on Wirewood Symbiote does not stop the Glimpse chain in the slightest and is very easily answered with GSZ -> Reclamation Sage. Seriously, it isn't even a speedbump.
Not just Lock... but KotR can overgrow your Rhino pretty quick and its main weapon of maverick, same the equipments..
Pernicious Deed, ok but dont forget that he has Abrupts and Quasali.. often you have to saf Deed in turn you play it , and not often u have 6 mana to kill all his dudes..
Deed is ofc the best what you can get against Maverick, but Needle can help... Maverick rly depend on activating abilites
and some version play dark depth combo... so again you can stop him with needle
Elves: very often elves keep in play only cose of symbiote
Its one of the best card of the deck....
I maybe dont understand nic fit, but i know elves very well... and needles pissed me off ...
And if he spent his GSZ... then it was a good deal for u
But i dont wanna tell you that in some situation Golgarys charm is better...
But in my oppinion needle has more use in more mu then golgarys charm... maybe just in my meta, maybe not..
but still needle is good card and you cant say that its not true
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
Not just Lock... but KotR can overgrow your Rhino pretty quick and its main weapon of maverick, same the equipments..
Pernicious Deed, ok but dont forget that he has Abrupts and Quasali.. often you have to saf Deed in turn you play it , and not often u have 6 mana to kill all his dudes..
Deed is ofc the best what you can get against Maverick, but Needle can help... Maverick rly depend on activating abilites
Elves: very often elves keep in play only cose of symbiote
Its one of the best card of the deck....
I maybe dont understand nic fit, but i know elves very well... and needles pissed me off ...
And if he spent his GSZ... then it was a good deal for u
We have DRS & Scavenging Ooze to keep KotR in check (if we're unable to PtE it in the first place) so we don't need to waste slots on Peedles there. And equipments need platforms to do anything. And die from our own (recurring) Qasali Pridemage. Deed you often blow for 1/2 mana. And who cares about wiping his entire board? As long as Deed is a 2 for 1 or better, it's fine by me. For any creatures remaining post-Deed we have other answers.
You're also not the only Elves! player here. And I seriously don't give a rats ass about Needle when wearing my Elves!-cap. Just keep building your board and NO right over it. Yeah, Symbiote is the best elf in the deck but also the one that dies the quickest. Its average lifespan is <1 turn so sorry if I'm not overly attached to it. I much more fear the Rhino that keeps coming my way b/c I can't answer it. If I start blocking, I'm pretty much fucked. I also fear my board getting Golgari Charm'd away.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
We have DRS & Scavenging Ooze to keep KotR in check (if we're unable to PtE it in the first place) so we don't need to waste slots on Peedles there. And equipments need platforms to do anything. And die from our own (recurring) Qasali Pridemage. Deed you often blow for 1/2 mana. And who cares about wiping his entire board? As long as Deed is a 2 for 1 or better, it's fine by me. For any creatures remaining post-Deed we have other answers.
You're also not the only Elves! player here. And I seriously don't give a rats ass about Needle when wearing my Elves!-cap. Just keep building your board and NO right over it. Yeah, Symbiote is the best elf in the deck but also the one that dies the quickest. Its average lifespan is <1 turn so sorry if I'm not overly attached to it.
your choice...
you asked for advices, this is my advice , i like needle, you dont, you dont have to play it :)
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
your choice...
you asked for advices, this is my advice , i like needle, you dont, you dont have to play it :)
I run 2 Needles in my SB, learn to read. I'm just of the opinion that they're mostly wasted on Elves! and I'm better off keeping the threatcount as high as possible. The biggest threat Elves! poses is the turn 3 (or any other turn) NO -> Craterhoof. Needle does not answer that threat. Same goes for the Maverick MU - the threats Maverick pose are nothing I cannot answer so why dilute my 60 with Needles?
Also, there'll be no (known) Elves! pilots in the invitational the sideboarding discussion was about, so who cares about boarding in or not boarding in Peedles against it. In this case it's a non-argument to run Peedles. So, again, learn to read.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
I'm just of the opinion that they're mostly wasted on Elves! and I'm better off keeping the threatcount as high as possible. The biggest threat Elves! poses is the turn 3 (or any other turn) NO -> Craterhoof. Needle does not answer that threat.
I agree that if he had what he need u r screwed and no needle help you...
especialy t2...
but there are not much cards which rly does
Elves and other combo MU is just about hoping in good draw... in ideal situation discart his glimpse or NO , sweep his board and start with your bombs
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
So, again, learn to read.
No need to be offense, iam writting here to discus with you your sideboard.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Needle is pretty poor against elves. The first few turns will need to be disruption, so TS, Duress, CT -> flashback when you are on a junk/jund deck because as @echelon said the way to lose against elves is the early NO. If you can stop that then you should have enough time to deploy a sweeper in the form of deed/decay and then leverage either pfire or trample + jitte to mop up.
Needle doesnt add to that game plan. This deck doesnt utilize (well except the new frankenstein-fit that was posted) brainstorm so you cant run cards that narrow in a matchup because you do not have a way to replace it. If you open on a needle that is a card you are down UNLESS you can craft the game to make needle valuable which is unlikely. I think this is reflective of the SB in general.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I played Nic Fit this past weekend. Didn't have all the cards for it but just wanted to have fun because IDGAF sometimes. It was refreshing to play a list "just for giggles". Ran into @Arianrhod, who was doing some interesting things.
I played Junk Nic Fit -- couldn't obtain Meren -- and felt Recurring Nightmare wasn't nearly as strong. I was stupid and forgot Teeg in the 75. I think Teeg is a maindeck necessity, based off this past experience.
Random thoughts:
1. Rhino
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brael
I cut a Rhino because I found 4 was leading to situations where I had too many stuck in my hand.
I ran 3 Rhino, 1 Tusk and felt that was a strong combination. For all the good in the world Rhino is, you better have his colors in the opening hand.
2. Sigarda is ridiculous in this deck
3. I ran 3 deeds and felt I needed 4. Even against Burn.
4. Slaughtering Games, even when it connected, didn't win me games against Miracles.
5. Deathrite Shaman was "okay" but not as strong as I had hoped. I went 3:3 Explorers/DRS and felt I saw too many inopportune Shamans. I actually could have benefited from a Wall or Sakura instead of DRS. Sounds awful on paper, doesn't it?
6. Despite running 3 Sensei's Tops, I and barely saw them. Variance is a thing.
7. In Junk-Fit, you shouldn't run KotR. I love her to death, but she's just not enough in Nic Fit. Played 0 this past weekend and never missed her.
8. Grave Titan = unnecessary
9. Tasigur = overachieved all day
10. Singleton Maelstrom Pulse should have been Vindicate. Why do I still neglect Vindicate?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Tasigur seems meh. I feel 3 deeds is the sweet spot.
Personally, I run 4 rhino and a tusk. They are amazing and I wouldn't cut them for anything. Other than a boat.
Sadly sfm went up on mtgo and I'm wary of spending dollars to get her and equipment to test out a sfm fit list.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
Tasigur seems meh. I feel 3 deeds is the sweet spot.
Personally, I run 4 rhino and a tusk. They are amazing and I wouldn't cut them for anything. Other than a boat.
Sadly sfm went up on mtgo and I'm wary of spending dollars to get her and equipment to test out a sfm fit list.
Are people speculating on sfm being unbanned in modern?
I don't even know what I'd cut for a sfm package..this is the most "compressed" deck I've ever played, so many options and good cards
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I've been on three deed main and one in the board for awhile. I feel like I always either want to bring the one in the board in or take the the main board ones out. That said I like the configuration as I feel 3 is the minimum you want when it's good, and the 4th can come in when it's really good while making main board space for a more versatile card.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
Are people speculating on sfm being unbanned in modern?
I don't even know what I'd cut for a sfm package..this is the most "compressed" deck I've ever played, so many options and good cards
Yesterday i was pondering with exactly the same question. Eventually i toyed around with the idea of cutting Siege Rhino of the deck. This, because i feel that Rhino does not work towards actual board control (similar to the control that Jund lists have). The flexibility the cards add that Rhino can't provide in bring the deck more to it's roots. What i came up with was (offcourse replacing Thrun, Tusk and STitan brings back Rhino action... completing the vicious circle):
Edit, tapatalk is not always the most clean way to post lists from memory:
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
Sb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Golgari charm
1 Pithing Needle
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
Are people speculating on sfm being unbanned in modern?
I don't even know what I'd cut for a sfm package..this is the most "compressed" deck I've ever played, so many options and good cards
The way I've run a StoneFit list has been to cut my top end (2 Grave Titans), cut 1 Deed because of the lack of synergy with your equipment (and the fact that Jitte is usually decent removal on its own), cut one flex spot (tutor / draw effect, this could be a Truths or a Wish or a Top), and cut one of my Lilianas or a piece of spot removal. My "finishers" / top of the curve end up being: 3 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Batterskull, 1 Jitte, 2 Rhino, sometimes 1 Meren, and 1 Titania. You lose some synergy and gain the ability to grind almost any deck in the format and to function on as few as 2 mana. It's a fun configuration but I honestly haven't had any more or less success with it than with a standard Junk Nic Fit deck. My gut says that it's even better against fair decks than traditional Nic Fit but sacrifices even more to combo.
Hope that helps.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
But..but..muh rhino
This resembles a pre-ktk list right? I don't know man I feel that rhino is the core of the junk deck, I can't abandon him. In all seriousness if you add bob and wasteland you basically have dga, a deck that can grind harder with hymns, liliana and souls + bob ca in my opinion. With sfm we gain an advantage vs fair creature decks, but I feel like we lose something in the other mus? Please correct me if I'm wrong. By the way, with sfm the urge to play souls would be strong for me
No s games?? Explain your thought process please.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
But..but..muh rhino
Rhino pleh!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
In all seriousness if you add bob and wasteland you basically have dga, a deck that can grind harder with hymns, liliana and souls + bob ca in my opinion. With sfm we gain an advantage vs fair creature decks, but I feel like we lose something in the other mus?
Playing NicFit vs the non-NicFit variants i have always preferred the NicFit decks, because those play out much nicer. I can't say that you should play DGA over Jund or NicFit. What i can say, and i can't say this enough, NicFit is very META sensitive and NicFit does have MU's where you'd want Wasteland or more midgame tempo. Having that said, there is shitty low room for ALL the goodstuff.
I dont thunk we loose anything with SFM vs other MU's. Combo, MUD, Lands and Eldrazi remain a nightmare, but att leasr SFM adds more control in the fair MU's.
And Rhino is a choice, not a must. In a meta where you'd want to play creative Rhino is not what you want to be doing. But we are blinded to often.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
I don't know man I feel that rhino is the core of the junk deck, I can't abandon him.
No, we limit ourselves to much thinking Rhino is the core of NicFit, because it is not. Siege Rhino is a choice and not THE choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
By the way, with sfm the urge to play souls would be strong for me
In NicFit i'd prefer Elspeth+Garruk any time over Lingering Souls. But i can't deny the cards power. Having that said, i really wouldn't know what to cut for them. Also, there is little synergy with Meren and Sun Titan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
No s games?? Explain your thought process please.
There are a couple of things that annoy me with SGames in Junk. 1. It pollutes my manabase. 2. It conflicts with Gaddock Teeg. 3. When not playing the card in jund it feels underwhelming. Now with point 3 i have no idea how that works, maybe it because SGames in jund has a more natural flow or just because there is no other stuff your focussing on, or because Liliana is there to.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Rhino pleh!!
Playing NicFit vs the non-NicFit variants i have always preferred the NicFit decks, because those play out much nicer. I can't say that you should play DGA over Jund or NicFit. What i can say, and i can't say this enough, NicFit is very META sensitive and NicFit does have MU's where you'd want Wasteland or more midgame tempo. Having that said, there is shitty low room for ALL the goodstuff.
I dont thunk we loose anything with SFM vs other MU's. Combo, MUD, Lands and Eldrazi remain a nightmare, but att leasr SFM adds more control in the fair MU's.
And Rhino is a choice, not a must. In a meta where you'd want to play creative Rhino is not what you want to be doing. But we are blinded to often.
No, we limit ourselves to much thinking Rhino is the core of NicFit, because it is not. Siege Rhino is a choice and not THE choice.
In NicFit i'd prefer Elspeth+Garruk any time over Lingering Souls. But i can't deny the cards power. Having that said, i really wouldn't know what to cut for them. Also, there is little synergy with Meren and Sun Titan.
There are a couple of things that annoy me with SGames in Junk. 1. It pollutes my manabase. 2. It conflicts with Gaddock Teeg. 3. When not playing the card in jund it feels underwhelming. Now with point 3 i have no idea how that works, maybe it because SGames in jund has a more natural flow or just because there is no other stuff your focussing on, or because Liliana is there to.
You Are probably right, we have so many options that limiting ourselves on a specific option (rhino) might be dumb, we have to be open minded I agree. I'll try different options and report back here my impressions.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Ask and ye shall receive
21/22 Land
2 Sensei's top
4 cabal therapy
1 diabolic intent
3 decay
3 Deed
1 Vindicate
1 painful truths
1 Flexy slot (2nd intent or 3rd top or 4th decay or whatever)
4 SFM
1 SoFaF
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
4 GSun
1 dryad
4 vet
1 Teeg
1 Scooze
1 ewit
1 Troll Ascetic (He turns your gsuns into thruns! And he still gets to that magic 5 power with equipments)
1 Meren
1 Rhino/Thrun (Pretty fun running 3 hexproof creatures, but trample is relevant)
1 Sigarda
Disruption, removal, sweepers, card selection and advantage, early game threats, late game threats and resilient sword carrying creatures to go over the top. (You haven't lived until a pro black Sigarda is happily fending off a Marit Lage until you find your batterskull)
Sideboard starts as
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Golgari Charm
2 Tsunami
1 Reclamation Sage
6 combo hate cards, usually hatebears and graveyard interaction
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jain_Mor
Ask and ye shall receive
21/22 Land
2 Sensei's top
4 cabal therapy
1 diabolic intent
3 decay
3 Deed
1 Vindicate
1 painful truths
1 Flexy slot (2nd intent or 3rd top or 4th decay or whatever)
4 SFM
1 SoFaF
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
4 GSun
1 dryad
4 vet
1 Teeg
1 Scooze
1 ewit
1 Troll Ascetic (He turns your gsuns into thruns! And he still gets to that magic 5 power with equipments)
1 Meren
1 Rhino/Thrun (Pretty fun running 3 hexproof creatures, but trample is relevant)
1 Sigarda
Disruption, removal, sweepers, card selection and advantage, early game threats, late game threats and resilient sword carrying creatures to go over the top. (You haven't lived until a pro black Sigarda is happily fending off a Marit Lage until you find your batterskull)
Sideboard starts as
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Golgari Charm
2 Tsunami
1 Reclamation Sage
6 combo hate cards, usually hatebears and graveyard interaction
I'm going to acquire the sfm package later, so I want to know what you and Bob think about the equipment selection and the number of squires. Once I decide to remove muh rhinos to play bsk and friends it seems weird to not play sofi
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
I'm going to acquire the sfm package later, so I want to know what you and Bob think about the equipment selection and the number of squires. Once I decide to remove muh rhinos to play bsk and friends it seems weird to not play sofi
When working on those lists i always try to dedicate 5 slots on the SFM package. Adding SoFaI would make perfect sense. So that would make 2 SFM and 3 Equipment.
I find Troll Ascetic interesting, but Sigarda and Thrun plus the protection for SoFaI and SoFaF it may be unnessesary.
I might now be pushing it, but Glissa, the Traitor looks Equipment friendly, and First Strike plus Deathtouch is insane.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@Bob,
You're thinking about troll ascetic in the wrong way. Statistically speaking you get Thrun off of a Greensun zenith more than you naturally cast him and we have therapies to push through counter spells, so the fact that Thrun is uncounterable is rarely relevant. So in the end Ascetic is just a cheaper Thrun. If you don't run equipment then Thrun being a bigger clock is relevant, but they both carry swords in the same manner. So if Ascetic is a cheaper Thrun (and is a resilient threat at the three drop (unlike knight etc)) then you can cut Thrun and then play siege rhino as your 4 drop beater for the life gain and trample.
Thrun doesn't make Ascetic unnecessary, Ascetic can make Thrun unecessary :P
I tried glissa awhile ago, and she just didn't fit the bill cause the deck is designed to blank their removal or make it irrelevant and glissa just dies to all the removal they have stranded in their hand. And You can fetch your destroyed equipments with Ewit :)
@rubble, I'm a man of consistency. If I'm playing Stoneforge mystic I'm building my deck around her and I'm playing 4. That's 8 creatures I'm happy to sac my turn 1 therapy to on turn 2.
That's 8 creatures that trade favourably with nearly all removal spells (only vet with a STP is a sad panda)
That's 8 creatures that transition me to the mid-late game (SFM is a great speed bump to keep your opponent occupied)
SFM mystic is also a green sun zenith of sorts, fitting in the curve at 2, 5, and 7 while fetching disruption, removal, card draw, life gain or a resilient threat.
Finally I don't like having a deck that can be stuck on 2-3 mana and not be doing anything because I didn't draw a therapy or a vet. SFM gives you a great way of mitigating that while still being a great card to top deck turn 29.
Regarding what equipment to run, when I run 4 SFM I run 3 equipment always. We don't have brainstorm to shuffle them back. I don't run Jitte cause it interferes with our Deeds and SoFaI is removal anyway. It's not like we are short of ways of dealing with small creatures..
It's important as well that the equipment isn't dead against combo because you're dedicating a lot of cards in your deck to SFM (that said the other cards you would have played instead would likely be just as useful against combo and SFM is cheaper and sacs to therapy and diabolic intent while fetching something at least slightly relevant)
I run SoFaI for the card advantage, removal and the pressure (I just raced a turn 2 reanimated Iona set on white through two force of will because my second diabolic intent resolved fetching my SoFaI to swing for the win)
I run SoFaF as gaining tempo while playing disruptive cards and attacking their in hand is the best way for us to combat combo, the protection from green is relevant against elves and the black against Marit Lage.
BSK because it's a resilient threat (notice a theme?) life gain and makes people swords to plowshares your SFM when you know you'll be hard casting your BSK in a few turns anyway.
So yea, I'm a huge advocate of her if you haven't noticed...
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
SFM sucks balls vs. anything running discard/Cabal Therapy though. If only I had a buck for every time I pulled that trick, lol.
For some reason noone ever sees it coming. Silly people.
