[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Endril

Listen to what the other people are telling you on this post, because they've obviously seen what ports can do.

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I listen. I just don't agree.

You say this like I haven't been playing Goblins with Ports for several years now. I'm aware of what they can do. I've probably played over ten thousand games with them. A lack of understanding of the card has nothing to do with my preference.

Maybe it's just a metagame thing. I face a lot of Sligh, Zoo, Tribal Aggro, and matchups where Port doesn't help me a bit. But Caverns has done well for me, and I think at current even if I wasn't running Caverns I'd be hesitant to go away from more basics.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

You say this like I haven't been playing Goblins with Ports for several years now. I'm aware of what they can do. I've probably played over ten thousand games with them.

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Just a detail, and I'm not taking any side in the actual argument, but that would amount to around one year of a full time job, which seems unrealistic (unless you're not working, that is. And even like that, still seems quite a lot, and for only one deck at that...). Or around 8 hours of Goblins with Ports each and every week for 5 years straight. It's still hard to imagine : )

But if you did manage to do that, well, the least i can say is that it's impressive (although at this point i wouldn't really know which way).

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Originally Posted by ParkerLewis

Just a detail, and I'm not taking any side in the actual argument, but that would amount to around one year of a full time job, which seems unrealistic (unless you're not working, that is. And even like that, still seems quite a lot, and for only one deck at that...). Or around 5 hours each and every week for 5 years straight of pure Goblins with Ports. It's still hard to imagine : )

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I never claimed to have a life.:) But yeah, I actually have no idea how many games I've played with Goblins, but I've had it since Legacy began, play magic pretty regularly both online and in person, and do contract work, so it's possible. Let's say 5000 for the sake of still making the point and go from there.:)

It's also worth noting that I've played a ton of games that I won on turn two from a Lackey hitting or lost on turn two or less from my opponent comboing off, so that should factor in to your time calculations. It's also worth noting that I've had to replace most of the goblins in my r/l deck once from excessive playwear. Sideshuffling. In sleeves.

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Originally Posted by Endril

@Everyone who stopped playing Mogg Fanatic: Why? I stopped playing them for a while to make room for more removal in my deck, until I remembered that Mogg Fanatic is great removal too. And it blocks. And it's a goblin. For one mana. Run it.

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I cut my Fanatics before the nerf but I've been including them again, they do have their appeal. Not neccesarily for removal but more as an extra combat trick and alike and some extra speed. I'm not running the full 4 though, they're not that good.

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Originally Posted by Endril

@FoulQ: Are you saying you're not personally enjoying it, or that it's bad. Because Goblins has always been a top contender in Legacy. The germans agree:... 3 of those top 8 decks were goblins.

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Basically, yes, I am saying the deck is bad, because other decks with horrid combo MUs like Loam or the new Ultimate Walker absolutely rape most of the rest of the field. I'm not saying it is unplayable, I still play it in most of my tournaments because I am more skilled with it than other decks, but honestly I'm not really seeing where it's good matchups are. And honestly I don't really care about the cute 50man german tournaments. Have you googled Cavius, because he is big in germany.

So, i'm gonna post the current list i'm using and i'll try to be ready for you telling me how bad it is but I really think you should test it before you dismiss it. Here it is:

// Lands
4 [REW] Wasteland
18 [EUL] Mountain (1)

// Creatures
4 [EVG] Goblin Ringleader
2 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [P2] Goblin Matron
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
2 [RAV] Frenzied Goblin
1 [SHM] Bloodmark Mentor
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

So the things to point out:

Incinerator count down to 2: The number one thing I would like to change with the list is to put in a third. Tinkerer might go but I really like having atleast 1 MD artifact destroying goblin for Vial(s) and Jitte.

Frenzied Goblin: This is the reason why I am running less creature removal to begin with. In early game he's just a Goblin that pumps your Piledrivers and/or Incinerators but it's in the mid-to-lategame his ability makes your pumped up Piledrivers connect instead of being chump blocked giving you the win so many turns faster (which means your opponent didn't get time to find possible answers).

Bloodmark Mentor: With a Chieftain out your Goblins can become 3/3 First Strikers with this guy which really helps against other aggro decks. In the mirror you don't even need a Chieftain, this guy alone gives you the big advantage. Oh, and he's also pretty decent with Piledriver I heard!

18 mountains: Needed for Frenzied Goblin + 6 cards that require RR.

With this list, Piledriver becomes so much more then a chump blocked target that basically says "1R (possibly R): Target player sacrifices a creature."

What do you think?

A few notes on your list I've noticed. Not sure if you are an avid reader of the thread or not. Here are a few points on your list that might be glaring:

Tinkerer as a 1of is a bad call. As a 3of he can be a decent meta call. He can't be used reactively because the artifact may kill him because of summoning sickness. He has to be proactive which means 3+. TSH on the other hand....my hard-on for him grows larger by the day. Mainly because my meta is littered with vials right now.

I have tested frenzied goblin. I found that goblins is too many hungry to support him, it wasn't necessarily that I didn't have enough red but that I didn't have enough period.

Instead of running bloodmark mentor, you could run a 3rd incinerator to really help the aggro matchup instead of a win more card.

One more small note: I've found chieftain to be THE card in the mirror. Behind the vial/land wars of course.

Looks like you are going for an aggressive strategy. Personally I view goblins as more of an aggro control deck with the port + wasteland, the only time not playing max ports is when you are in a meta like Taco's where I think your deck will die badly or in RBG. That there is my biggest concern, the manabase. The rest of the deck can live and die and certain card choices can shine and suck no matter what, but time and time again port + wasteland + vial is what wins games for goblins, not some subpar creatures. I've just personally never liked the balls to the walls strategy, as it makes the deck much more of a meta deck than truly a match between two players.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

Basically, yes, I am saying the deck is bad, because other decks with horrid combo MUs like Loam or the new Ultimate Walker absolutely rape most of the rest of the field. I'm not saying it is unplayable, I still play it in most of my tournaments because I am more skilled with it than other decks, but honestly I'm not really seeing where it's good matchups are. And honestly I don't really care about the cute 50man german tournaments. Have you googled Cavius, because he is big in germany.

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I don't get it. Goblins win. I'll agree that Loam is nasty. And so is Walker, although I like my match-up against it. But Goblins is and probably always will be a deck you'll see in lots of top 8's. That's not a matter of opinion... it's fact. Just look at some tournament results. And as for 50 player tournaments, that's pretty big for Legacy.

And why don't more people play Goblin King? It gives +1/+1 just like Chieftain does, and the mountainwalk is often a win condition.

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Originally Posted by Endril

I don't get it. Goblins win. I'll agree that Loam is nasty. And so is Walker, although I like my match-up against it. But Goblins is and probably always will be a deck you'll see in lots of top 8's. That's not a matter of opinion... it's fact. Just look at some tournament results. And as for 50 player tournaments, that's pretty big for Legacy.

And why don't more people play Goblin King? It gives +1/+1 just like Chieftain does, and the mountainwalk is often a win condition.

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One of the few time you see red other then zoo is in the mirror match and Goblin King is horrible in the mirror match the few decks that that run red are not worth the mirror match

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Originally Posted by Magic Fanatic

One of the few time you see red other then zoo is in the mirror match and Goblin King is horrible in the mirror match the few decks that that run red are not worth the mirror match

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Tempo Thresh, some landstill builds, all survival builds, Zoo, Dragon Stompy, Aggro Loam.

Considering all of those except DS are DTB's that's not even that bad. I'm not playing King but it seems "ok", more a sideboard thing. I prefer Chieftain by far.

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Originally Posted by Endril

I don't get it. Goblins win. I'll agree that Loam is nasty. And so is Walker, although I like my match-up against it. But Goblins is and probably always will be a deck you'll see in lots of top 8's. That's not a matter of opinion... it's fact. Just look at some tournament results. And as for 50 player tournaments, that's pretty big for Legacy.

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You have to realize that the amount of people playing goblins is going to be higher than other decks, especially in more undeveloped metagames. So it is going to end up placing more than some other decks just because of the sheer amount of people playing it. I guarantee you that if there were the same number of people playing and testing TES or practically any other deck that it would top eight a lot more than goblins.

Just look at the matchups for this deck even in the DTB.

Landstill: Traditionally even depending on port inclusion.
Aggro Loam: Slightly unfavorable, depending on the build.
Countertop: Slightly favorable, especially if splashing black for weirding.
Zoo: Very unfavorable.
Survival: Personally I'm not sure, this deck doesn't exist where I am.
Tempo Thresh: In my opinion, slightly unfavorable, and it gets worse post-SB. Playing black splash helps though.
Merfolk: Favorable.

So there is no bomb matchups like with merfolk. And there is no mega skill contests like with Landstill and Countertop, where the player relies on skill instead of the matchup. So goblins can serve as neither a meta deck with a few great matchups, nor as a skill testing deck, because I mean, come on, let's face it, that is the realm of decks like landstill.

So is goblins an outdated and bad deck in today's meta? Basically yes. Is it unplayable? Of course not, and it can still dominate in underdeveloped metas.

And there is a search function. Goblin King has been discussed about 500 times. Honestly probably more than that. There is a search function. The following cards have been discussed and are somewhat playable depending on the meta or not playable:

Bloodmark Mentor, Boartusk Liege, Boggart Mob, Caterwauling Boggart, Earwig Squad, Fodder Launch, Frenzied Goblin, Frogtosser Banneret, Goblin Assassin, Goblin Burrows, Goblin Chieftain, Goblin Goon, Goblin Grappler, Goblin King, Goblin Medics, Goblin Pyromancer, Goblin Settler, Goblin Sharpshooter, Goblin Sledder, Goblin Taskmaster, Goblin Tinkerer, Goblin Vandal, Goblin Wizard, Ib Halfheart Goblin Tactician, Intimidator Initiate, Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker, Knucklebone Witch, Lightning Crafter, Mad Auntie, Mogg Fanatic, Mogg Flunkies, Mogg Raider, Mogg Sentry, Mogg War Marshal, Mon's Goblin Raiders, Murderous Redcap, Raging Goblin, Razorfin fucking Hunter, Reckless One, Sensation Gorger, Shrieking Mogg, Skirk Drill Sergeant, Skirk Fire Marshal, Skirk Prospector, Sparksmith, Spikeshot Goblin, Stingscourger, Tarfire, Tattermunge Maniac, Tin Street Hooligan, Vexing Shusher, Warren Weirding, Wort Boggart Auntie, and Wort the Raidmother.

The following goblins are the always playable ones:

AEther Vial, Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Matron, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Warchief, Lands, and Siege-Gang Commander. Sometimes a sideboard too.

Every other goblin has not had the chance to be terribly suggested yet. And the bolded ones above are the ones that honestly there is like 50 posts on every page about why we should/should not play them. If you have questions about any of the above cards a simple search function should suffice.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

You have to realize that the amount of people playing goblins is going to be higher than other decks, especially in more undeveloped metagames.

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This is by far not necessarily true. And a gross generalization.

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So is goblins an outdated and bad deck in today's meta? Basically yes. Is it unplayable? Of course not, and it can still dominate in underdeveloped metas.

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Actually, Goblins is good at doing big tournaments. That's because regardless of where you play a big tournament is going to have decks that are really random. Metagame decks like countertop don't deal well with random decks that are outside the curve whereas goblins has no problems there. The first rounds are therefore a lot easier for goblins then for other decks, it's the top 8 where you need a bit of luck but honestly, Goblins MU's aren't bad at all. Most are around 50/50.

The Zoo MU is better then you give it credit for, it's not favorable for Goblins but depending on who goes first you certainly do have a chance, mostly thanks to wasteland and co.

I admit I've only played a few matches against Zoo, but I've won all of them. It may be because I maindeck 4 plows or SB a couple pyrokinesis, but I'd be happy to see it in a tournament.

What kind of meta would you expect at worlds? I have less than a week to prepare my SB for it.

I recently came into a bunch of store credit over at trollandtoad. It's enough to buy every card needed to construct Goblins... the mono-red version only.

Looking at the opening post, I wonder if the cards choices still hold up today? I'm assuming Mogg Fanatic is not included anymore due to M10 rules, but is the overall shell still the same?

I tried looking at deckcheck.net and mono-red lists were interwoven with non-monored lists; messy and timeconsuming to click 433 links to weed out the mono-red lists.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I recently came into a bunch of store credit over at trollandtoad. It's enough to buy every card needed to construct Goblins... the mono-red version only.

Looking at the opening post, I wonder if the cards choices still hold up today? I'm assuming Mogg Fanatic is not included anymore due to M10 rules, but is the overall shell still the same?

I tried looking at deckcheck.net and mono-red lists were interwoven with non-monored lists; messy and timeconsuming to click 433 links to weed out the mono-red lists.

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Yeah, the shell for monored is almost the same!
Here's my list, with bolded the least fixed slots. You can change them to whatever you like (goblins, lands, or Relic of Progenitus), even if I (obviously) suggest my list as a good one ;)

// Lands
15 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
2 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [WL] Gaea's Blessing

Ordered 95% of the cards... damn "out-of-stock" status. I'm pretty excited.

EDIT: For mono-red, if your meta has a lot of CounterTop (Thresh, Dreadstill, etc) or just retarded blue stuff in general, is Mogg Salvage possibly worth running in the side? Many times, it'll be free and it dodges CounterTop to a reasonable degree... or is Goblin Tinkerer just better for mono-red combating artifacts?

Tinkerer is better against more decks, and Goblins doesn't worry about Countertop too much because you run so many 3,4, and 5 cc plus you can drop vial before balance.

I realized I need a way to deal with artifacts so I made room for a tinkerer in the SB. Here's how the board looks now:

x4 Disenchant
x4 Relic of Progenitus
x4 Pyrostatic Pillar
x1 Vexing Shusher
x1 Goblin King
x1 Goblin Tinkerer

Not having a couple Pyrokinesis might make me weaker against aggressive decks like Goblins, Zoo, and Fish, but it's not like I've been losing to those decks a lot. I've considered dropping Pyrostatic Pillar for Ethersworn Canonist or Thorn of Amethyst, but Pillar seems to hate on more decks (and I'd have to buy the other cards 'cuz I don't own them yet). I've also considered dropping Vexing Shusher for Stingscourger.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

And there is a search function. Goblin King has been discussed about 500 times. Honestly probably more than that. There is a search function. The following cards have been discussed and are somewhat playable depending on the meta or not playable:

Bloodmark Mentor, Boartusk Liege, Boggart Mob, Caterwauling Boggart, Earwig Squad, Fodder Launch, Frenzied Goblin, Frogtosser Banneret, Goblin Assassin, Goblin Burrows, Goblin Chieftain, Goblin Goon, Goblin Grappler, Goblin King, Goblin Medics, Goblin Pyromancer, Goblin Settler, Goblin Sharpshooter, Goblin Sledder, Goblin Taskmaster, Goblin Tinkerer, Goblin Vandal, Goblin Wizard, Ib Halfheart Goblin Tactician, Intimidator Initiate, Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker, Knucklebone Witch, Lightning Crafter, Mad Auntie, Mogg Fanatic, Mogg Flunkies, Mogg Raider, Mogg Sentry, Mogg War Marshal, Mon's Goblin Raiders, Murderous Redcap, Raging Goblin, Razorfin fucking Hunter, Reckless One, Sensation Gorger, Shrieking Mogg, Skirk Drill Sergeant, Skirk Fire Marshal, Skirk Prospector, Sparksmith, Spikeshot Goblin, Stingscourger, Tarfire, Tattermunge Maniac, Tin Street Hooligan, Vexing Shusher, Warren Weirding, Wort Boggart Auntie, Wort the Raidmother, and Zo-Zu the Punisher.

The following goblins are the always playable ones:

AEther Vial, Gempalm Incinerator, Goblin Lackey, Goblin Matron, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Warchief, Lands, and Siege-Gang Commander. Sometimes a sideboard too.

Every other goblin has not had the chance to be terribly suggested yet. And the bolded ones above are the ones that honestly there is like 50 posts on every page about why we should/should not play them. If you have questions about any of the above cards a simple search function should suffice.

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You forgot Terminate

Terminate isn't a Goblin. That would nerf Ringleader and isn't tutorable with Matron.