All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by FTW

Unban Survival of the Fittest. Then Jund can play SFM+TNN. Problem solved.

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There are indeed some peeps discussing a white-splash in Jund to play Hatebears alongside of Hymn and Punishing Fire with a VERY PROMISSING manabase. I'm sure your idea of adding double blue-cost cards and rainbowlands would be appreciated there as well!


XP

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

There are indeed some peeps discussing a white-splash in Jund to play Hatebears alongside of Hymn and Punishing Fire with a VERY PROMISSING manabase. I'm sure your idea of adding double blue-cost cards and rainbowlands would be appreciated there as well!


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I mean yolo. I would play SFM. Equipping a Sword of X&Y to Bloodbraid elf just oozes value.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I don't understand how the "the format has never been healthier" people in this thread just completely ignore the data for December 2013 and January 2014. In the now-closed "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread, I posted data showing how TNN was beginning to push out non-blue, non-TNN decks (citing Maverick as the prime example), but people said that Maverick didn't matter (uh... less non-blue decks able to compete with blue decks is a good thing?) and the format would adapt with more decks like Jund straight raping TNN decks... yeah, December 2013 and January 2014 sure showed how awesome Jund is doing versus TNN. In case people didn't notice, it's not. At all.

And I fully understand that January 2014's data is incomplete and that the final numbers will move things around, but I don't anticipate drastic changes in the next 8 days left in the month. Also, the TNN-killer, Jund, really has no reason as to why it's performing so poorly (other than losing to TNN-decks), particularly when Storm (one of it's worst matchups) is at a 6-8 month low. If TNN is where the format is right now, and if Jund truly just rapes TNN-decks for free with infinite answers like Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, Liliana of the Veil, Ancient Grudge, Pyroblast, etc, while not having to worry too much about facing Storm during a tournament, then wouldn't Jund be near the top of the format?

I suspect that it's mediocre performance in a TNN world is because Jund just isn't the TNN-killer it was billed to be. Jund, outside of the 1-2 Sylvan Library it may run, has no library manipulation to get their exact answer to TNN when it's needed. By overloading their deck with cards like Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, Ancient Grudge, etc, Jund is playing nothing but reactive cards to the blue player's proactive cards like Delver/SFM/TNN/etc; a non-blue deck that's essentially slaved to their natural draw step trying to play the control role versus a blue deck with Jace/TNN/Brainstorm/Snapcaster/etc isn't a winning proposition.

TNN-decks tend to be slightly grindier decks, with some veering on the tempo side of things (Patriot) while others prefer the control approach (Blade Control). Jund is also trying to grind the game down, but it lacks the luxury of having access to a near-invincible win condition and also lacks the versatility of Brainstorm to dig for it's answers to said near-invincible win condition.

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Probably because you're using a ton of data from TC with 15 man tourneys. That's why I pointed to Bob's analysis of the meta using major tournaments as they're significantly more important. Like where Maverick hasn't been a real player in a long time, not because of TNN, but because it's not a good deck right now. Also, UWR Delver is most decidedly not a TNN deck, it's ridiculous to characterize it as one.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

Probably because you're using a ton of data from TC with 15 man tourneys. That's why I pointed to Bob's analysis of the meta using major tournaments as they're significantly more important. Like where Maverick hasn't been a real player in a long time, not because of TNN, but because it's not a good deck right now. Also, UWR Delver is most decidedly not a TNN deck, it's ridiculous to characterize it as one.

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Bob's data isn't current (the October 31st, 2013 article you cited was data collected well before TNN was printed) and he hasn't posted any updates since then. How exactly is the community supposed to use Bob's data on TNN when he hasn't provided us any?

I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of posters in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread agreed that we were all going to cite thecouncil's data moving forward as it's regularly updated, comprehensive and takes into account all metas.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

How exactly is the community supposed to use Bob's data on TNN when he hasn't provided us any?

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With a time machine?

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Bob's data isn't current (the October 31st, 2013 article you cited was data collected well before TNN was printed) and he hasn't posted any updates since then. How exactly is the community supposed to use Bob's data on TNN when he hasn't provided us any?

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http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...game-analysis/

Also, that October 31st Article is my proof and counter for your "Maverick has always been a major player and died because of TNN" argument. Maverick wasn't, it died long before TNN.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

Probably because you're using a ton of data from TC with 15 man tourneys. That's why I pointed to Bob's analysis of the meta using major tournaments as they're significantly more important. Like where Maverick hasn't been a real player in a long time, not because of TNN, but because it's not a good deck right now. Also, UWR Delver is most decidedly not a TNN deck, it's ridiculous to characterize it as one.

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- they play SFM to power up TNN
- they play TNN

How is that not a TNN deck? Especially when they ride quite a few games to the win with it where they had no business winning.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...game-analysis/

Also, that October 31st Article is my proof and counter for your "Maverick has always been a major player and died because of TNN" argument. Maverick wasn't, it died long before TNN.

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That December 2013 article (http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...game-analysis/) is from a different website than the October 2013 article (http://www.eternalcentral.com/legacy...november-2013/), sorry I didn't check a completely different website to follow his articles. Although since you were kind enough to link to the December 2013 article, here's his breakdown from it:

Here are the top-performing decks:

RUG Delver (11.2%)
ANT (9.5%)
UWR Delver (8.6%)
BUG Delver (6.9%)
Death and Taxes (6.9%)
Miracles (6.0%)
DeathBlade (6.0%)
Sneak and Show (6.0%)
EsperBlade (5.2%)
Elves (5.2%)
Shardless BUG (5.2%)

So... Jund isn't a relevant player anymore, just like I said, despite everyone claiming in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread that Jund was going to smash TNN-decks. Thanks for providing another set of data to confirm I was right.

A cursory look SCG's events in December and January so far using MTGTop8 have 5 Jund decks in the top 8 vs. 6 decks they categorize as Stoneblade. That seems more like a healthy metagame than an unhealthy one. Jund dropped off a lot in November and has been showing an uptick in the intervening time period, so does that make it a player or not?

But guys TNN and SFM is pretty cool. I can turn 2 SFM for a Jitte, turn 3 a TNN, then turn four put the Jitte on the TNN and swing for the win. Isn't that awesome?

It's like Troll Ascetic but in the best colours.

IS there an upcoming (un)banning? What is the announcement schedule, if any?

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

IS there an upcoming (un)banning? What is the announcement schedule, if any?

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Banned: None
Unbanned: Earthcraft.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

A cursory look SCG's events in December and January so far using MTGTop8 have 5 Jund decks in the top 8 vs. 6 decks they categorize as Stoneblade. That seems more like a healthy metagame than an unhealthy one. Jund dropped off a lot in November and has been showing an uptick in the intervening time period, so does that make it a player or not?

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SCG Columbus (342 players) - http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12694

- 7 Blade Control/Deathblade/Patriot decks in the Top 16, 0 Jund decks.

SCG Orlando (239 players) - http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12653

- 2 Patriot & 2 TNN UR Delver decks in the Top 16, 1 Jund deck.

SCG Indy (256 players) - http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12597

- 4 Patriot decks in the Top 16, 0 Jund decks.

90 Duals Open HK (193 players) - http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12577

- 2 DeathBlade decks in the Top 8, 0 Jund decks.

So in the most recent 4 tourneys that have 129+ players (following Bob's methodology), there were 17 TNN decks in the Top8/Top16 to Jund's 1. Even if you don't think Patriot or TNN UR Delver are "TNN-decks" (I firmly believe that Patriot is the premier TNN deck), then the number becomes 8 TNN-decks to Jund's 1. If that isn't Jund dropping off the face of the map, I don't know what is.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

If that isn't Jund dropping off the face of the map, I don't know what is.

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I don't understand why Jund is suffering. It has punishing fire to kill stupid weenies in the SFM/TNN deck, it has access to black-stuff like Lilly and Golgari Charm to kill TNN (or Pyroblast/REB to counter it), superior grinding game, and Decay to nuke equipment that SFM gets (barring Batterskull).

It, along with Shardless BUG, look like good choices in this True Named meta.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

IS there an upcoming (un)banning? What is the announcement schedule, if any?

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Pretty sure the announcement is tomorrow?

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I don't understand why Jund is suffering. It has punishing fire to kill stupid weenies in the SFM/TNN deck, it has access to black-stuff like Lilly and Golgari Charm to kill TNN (or Pyroblast/REB to counter it), superior grinding game, and Decay to nuke equipment that SFM gets (barring Batterskull).

It, along with Shardless BUG, look like good choices in this True Named meta.

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I posted my general thoughts on the reasons behind Jund's sharp decline a page back, but also would like to add that Jund's answers to TNN decks, although plentiful (many Jund lists are dedicating 6-8 SB slots for the TNN matchups), are varied and don't necessarily "hit" when they need to. Ever cast a TNN while your Jund opponent is looking at Ancient Grudge in his hand? I have. Ever cast a SFM while your Jund opponent is sitting on 2x Pyroblast? I have. Ever cast a Jace while your Jund opponent is holding Golgari Charm + Diabolic Edict? I have. And they do not have anyway of fixing these awkward draws as they're a slave to their natural draw step unless they get an early Sylvan Library out. Blue greatly mitigates this situation with Brainstorm + fetchlands and it also just runs near-invincible win conditions that require incredibly narrow answers at a precise moment... the closest thing Jund runs to that is Liliana I suppose, but she doesn't outright win the game if left unchecked, she needs support to get there; TNN just gets there independent of whatever else blue is throwing at you with their SFMs, Jaces, Snapcaster + value flashbacks, etc.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I posted my general thoughts on the reasons behind Jund's sharp decline a page back, but also would like to add that Jund's doesn't have Brainstorm.

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Is pretty much what I read.

Ban brainstorm trololololol?

So your reasoning is also why Shardless BUG is fine. Brainstorm is quite amazing. And yes, I have run into those situations you describe. Anecdotes, but I believe they are valid ones.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Is pretty much what I read.

Ban brainstorm trololololol?

So your reasoning is also why Shardless BUG is fine. Brainstorm is quite amazing.

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But Jund was CRUSHING Stoneblade decks pre-TNN. That's because they didn't have to scramble/hope to draw their specific, narrow answers to break even against near-invincible win conditions, they could just play normal Magic, take a hit or two from Lingering Souls tokens, then P.Fire into the win. Now that TNN has replaced Lingering Souls in many lists, Jund's previously useful cards like P.Fire, Lighting Bolt and Abrupt Decay are all nearly dead in that matchup.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

But Jund was CRUSHING Stoneblade decks pre-TNN. That's because they didn't have to scramble/hope to draw their specific, narrow answers to near-invincible win conditions, they could just play normal Magic, take a hit or two from Lingering Souls tokens, then P.Fire into the win.

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But is True-Name Nemesis ban worthy?

There are answers for it, but is it skewing/warping the meta too much like how Mental Misstep and Survival of the Fittest were?

EDIT: I personally see TNN getting the axe. Watching it push out non-blue decks is depressing.

Jund folds to TNN because the idea of the deck is to be interactive and to pull every bit of value from its cards. When you blank out its interaction and kill about 1/3 of its deck with a single card, its plan folds. It also has the issue where it is almost always at the mercy of the topdeck to find answers. So it may have a strong match when it gets the right cards, but over a full 10+ rounds its going to fall down. Because its just not as consistent.

This is why I did not buy any TNN. Waiting for a possible ban so they get cheaper.

Pretty fun to troll table top players though. TNN + SoFI/Jitte is pretty obnoxious.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Jund folds to TNN because the idea of the deck is to be interactive and to pull every bit of value from its cards. When you blank out its interaction and kill about 1/3 of its deck with a single card, its plan folds. It also has the issue where it is almost always at the mercy of the topdeck to find answers. So it may have a strong match when it gets the right cards, but over a full 10+ rounds its going to fall down. Because its just not as consistent.

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Exactly. Pre-TNN, Jund could lean on redundant answers (Lightning Bolt + Punishing Fire) and threats, so consistency didn't matter as much. Post-TNN, Jund now needs exact answers to the board state or it loses. This is where the consistency issue becomes glaringly apparent.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

TNN + SoFI/Jitte is pretty obnoxious.

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This

It's the main way I lose games with D&T against such decks.

Currently finished R3 of the Legacy Daily on Modo. You can bet your ass how excited I was to face the third goddamn TNN deck in a row:

- Patriot Delver (guess where my loss came from in that 2-1 - early draw into double TNN while he killed my flyers with my ground forces durdling around with StP in hand)
- some raging 12-year old playing Deathblade who flamed me the entire game. Losses sponsored by a Jitte-wielding TNN.
- 2-1 vs Esperblade - guess where my loss came from: TNN + Jitte

TNN really gets me salty. It's just such a dumb card.

When comes the next announcement? Someone said it will be January 27th, is this true?

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Originally Posted by Barook

- some raging 12-year old playing Deathblade who flamed me the entire game. Losses sponsored by a Jitte-wielding TNN.

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I can imagine the kid mashing the keyboard while crying to his mom for more hot pockets. :laugh:

I have a hard time understanding how anyone ever thought the card was okay from a gameplay flow standpoint*. I mean, it's a fucking Progenitus with no risk. NO at least needs commitment mana-wise, just trying to cast it is a sacrifice in board position and it is harder to play in heavy-blue decks, and is a spell so all the absurdly good anti-spell counters work against it.
TNN, you can just throw around and presto. Even the goddamn powerup mechanic via SFM is pure CA.

* I actually know how - nobody ever gave it a single thought, maybe aside from 4 player EDH fests with million/million dorks powered to the table by Vintage manabases as standard.

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Originally Posted by Barook

TNN really gets me salty. It's just such a dumb card.

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I'm with you buddy.

Also Brainstorm is fine, it enables diversity in strategies. Without it Legacy goes back to the stone age. To increase diversity in colors however, I think Wizards should focus on designing stronger color specific synergies and cards like Green Sun's zenith which increase consistency in other colors.

Brainstorm is going nowhere. They just gave DnT a new hate bear to use. Why then remove the card that it was made to hate without at lest testing the waters?

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Originally Posted by JanoschEausH

When comes the next announcement? Someone said it will be January 27th, is this true?

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Yes. It's the Monday before the prerelease of the next expansion.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

I have a hard time understanding how anyone ever thought the card was okay from a gameplay flow standpoint*. I mean, it's a fucking Progenitus with no risk. NO at least needs commitment mana-wise, just trying to cast it is a sacrifice in board position and it is harder to play in heavy-blue decks, and is a spell so all the absurdly good anti-spell counters work against it.
TNN, you can just throw around and presto. Even the goddamn powerup mechanic via SFM is pure CA.

* I actually know how - nobody ever gave it a single thought, maybe aside from 4 player EDH fests with million/million dorks powered to the table by Vintage manabases as standard.

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I've actually been liking the flavor of TNN a lot more recently. Its like the ultimate Invisible Stalker, but for the extra U, you get 2 power and "can't be damaged", kind of like an Invisible Stalker/Fog Bank love-child. The card's really good, but considering the next most playable variant is what, Blighted Agent? Shadowmage Infiltrator? No one plays these cards. I think if you were wanting some form of U unblockable to be represented in the format, TNN had to do everything that it does.

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Originally Posted by jamis

I think if you were wanting some form of U unblockable to be represented in the format, TNN had to do everything that it does.

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Bullshit. They could have just taken Invisible Stalker, gave it 2 more power, and make the mana cost UUU. Powerful, but difficult to splash and there's more removal that could impact it AND it couldn't just chump block everything in the format. None of these 4-color Deathblade horseshit with mini-Progenitus carrying a Jitte and turning sideways and face-smashing until you died.

The Protection from Player went too far.

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Originally Posted by jamis

I've actually been liking the flavor of TNN a lot more recently. Its like the ultimate Invisible Stalker, but for the extra U, you get 2 power and "can't be damaged", kind of like an Invisible Stalker/Fog Bank love-child. The card's really good, but considering the next most playable variant is what, Blighted Agent? Shadowmage Infiltrator? No one plays these cards. I think if you were wanting some form of U unblockable to be represented in the format, TNN had to do everything that it does.

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Making the protection-from-player a trigger instead of a static ability would've made all the difference. Still would've been highly played, but not nearly as uninteractive and board dominant as it currently is.

I love the card but I understand the frustration of playing against it. That's why I am worried about Monday. That and the disappearance of several non-blue decks that only until recently held a respectable place in the format. Right now I probably feel the same as a SotF player right before it's banning. This has me all goosebumpy and my stomach in knots. I love this card but it is killing things that probably shouldn't die.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

We interrupt this pissing match for an important announcement: https://mobile.twitter.com/TrickMTG/..._name=TrickMTG

I've been playing with nothing but UW Stoneblade since November 1st, but would LOVE to see TNN get the axe. I play with him only to not lose (a lot) to other decks that play with him. I'd love to see him go and have more non-blue decks have a fighting chance again (D&T is literally the only non-blue, non-combo deck in the top tier despite TNN).

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I'd love to see him go and have more non-blue decks have a fighting chance again (D&T is literally the only non-blue, non-combo deck in the top tier despite TNN).

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While I would really love to see TNN gone asap, I seriously doubt they're going to ban it anytime soon, simply as a business decision. The Commander 2013 boxes still sell and the TNN precon is the main reason. Plus, it would send a bad signal for future Commander deck sales.

D&T is the only deck in that category since it can use its flyers and shenanigans to realistically race TNN.

It was said that they were going to do something about the lopsided sales they have been noticing with the most current iteration of commander, though. It's not like they haven't made their sales on the grixis box, meanwhile the other 4 sit there. I know the Esper and bant get theirs to a point and will get decent sales either way but naya and the other wont. That may be regardless of TNN, though. They are pretty terrible.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

It was said that they were going to do something about the lopsided sales they have been noticing with the most current iteration of commander, though.

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Future editions don't solve the current problem, though. And even then, they can always claim that it was another "mistake".

I simply meant that they could ban TNN in legacy to stop the bleeding on lopsided sales of commander 2013. I wasn't eluding to a future commander set. They once claimed that tendrils was a mistake and while it had its own hay day, it's become an acceptable addition to the legacy metagame.

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I think they actually said the Storm mechanic was a mistake, not Tendrils of Agony (which just so happens to have the Storm mechanic on it). This is curious, as this admission of making the Storm mistake came years before Flusterstorm was printed. I like Flusterstorm a lot, don't get me wrong, but it just goes to show that Wizards makes up whatever reason/excuse that's convienient for them at the time, then proceeds on like nothing ever happened.