[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by Echelon

There's a separate thread for this kind of junk. Please be so kind to keep these kind of posts out of this thread.

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Notice how he rebuffs and besmirches, all under the aegis of faux politeness.

That acknowledged, let me encourage you all NOT to propose card designs as a mechanism for identifying the weaknesses in the deck, in this thread. Rather, let's go to the core of what I was trying to address. What are the weaknesses in our deck?

For instance, green struggles with creature removal. The fight mechanic, while effective as a form of creature removal, doesn't, so far, fit in our deck all that well. Abrupt Decay is one card that lets us deal with some individual creature threats. We also attack the hand Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy allow us to go after creature cards before they become creatures, but, as I mentioned above, there is something unsatisfying about hand removal in this deck (not that it isn't effective).

I also wouldn't mind having another morph staple that we use, just so that we get the benefit of the opponent no knowing which threat lies under the down-facing card.

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Originally Posted by henweigh

I also wouldn't mind having another morph staple that we use, just so that we get the benefit of the opponent no knowing which threat lies under the down-facing card.

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Troll people with Tribal Forcemage :P

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Originally Posted by Lans89

Troll people with Tribal Forcemage :P

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:smile:

What are peoples' opinions about Dwynen's Elite in the Elves list that made top 8?

Hey Guys,

went 4-2 4th place on a local tournament with 22 players. My list:

3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
1 Sylvan Library

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Pendelhaven
1 Cavern of Souls
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61

SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Shaman of the Pack
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15

Beat Storm, Tin Fins, BUG and Loam. Lost to DnT and BURG. Yeah I totally don't know what happend there, ok i made a stupid mistake but read just read it =)

Storm 2-0
First round Deathrite kept his GY small and he did nothing and lost Round 3
Second the same.

BUG 2-0
First round he dropped Bayou Deathrite go. I didn't play any fetch because my hand was strong without it. Second round Forest 2nd Deathrite go. I thought he is on Elves, I glimsped he BS no answer and then he was dead.
Second Round SotP for the win.

Tin Fins 2-1
He was on the play, discarded my Deathrite and killed me Turn 2.
Second I kept a hand with SE he combos and I extracted his Grisel's and Ruric made the Game on Turn 3.
Third I mulled to five with a weak but playable hand. Ok maybe this was stupid but then i drawed into a SE and he made nothing.

Imperial Taxes 1-2
Im stupid to the bones I really don't want to tell you guys what happend...
Game one he had 2 swords, Turn 2 Jitte - Thalia and Sowrds for my Quirion and Symbiote -.-
Game 2 i could kill him because he only had after 6 Rounds a playset of swords but no red mana.
Game 3 was grindy as hell. Jitte and Sword online I struggled for rounds and had to NO for Sage because Behemoth was not leathel, if i hadn't forget my Library trigger I had won the game because in my 3 cards was a GSZ. So I could cast it for Sage and NO for leathel Hoof.

BURG 0-2
Don't know what happend but his Angler combined with Bolts and FoW made me some real trouble both games.

Loam 2-1
Best card was Cavern of Souls even if I could only cast one or two Elves until he wasted it. It gave me the possibility to swarm the Board with enough to control his GY and the game.

All in all Cavern felt super strong against Loam even with four Wastes in his deck. Maybe i want to try a second one, I'm not sure where I can make space for it. SotP felt surprisingly strong. Two Needles were important because there were 4 Infect. If I had known that there were 3 Storm as well I had kept the Split but it works.

See Ya

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

What are peoples' opinions about Dwynen's Elite in the Elves list that made top 8?

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Maybe you remember, that I mentioned the Elite a lot and got some solid results with it as a 1off. I liked that someone at scg finished nicely with the same idea.

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Originally Posted by henweigh

What are the weaknesses in our deck?

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I have several thoughts on this point, beyond what has already been mentioned.

First, we can struggle with removal, whether it be direct damage or the reduction of toughness. This is especially vexing when it affects all or most of our little green men at once.

Second, we have difficulty dealing with decks like R/G Lands and (at least for me) with Imperial Painter. These decks hit at odd angles and we have few ways to interact with them--other than being faster. Being faster is certainly a good strategy, but it is not reliable. Also, discard does not necessarily slow these types of decks down much. We could use a some way to interact with some of these types of decks beyond Abrupt Decay.

Third, fast decks like Reanimator, Storm, Dredge, and the like can out race us effectively and we often have little in the way of effective interaction. We certainly have ways to affect the graveyard--Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze--which can keep Reanimator and Dredge (and even Lands above) at bay, but can often come too late, with decks that not infrequently win on turns 1 or 2.

Fourth, we can struggle with decks that cheat things into play, like OmniTell, Miracles, Goblins, Merfolk, etc Granted, we do some of this ourselves, but some of these decks (not Goblins, so much) play control strategies which slow us down while keeping their options open.

To henweigh's query, I'd like to see some ways to address these concerns on cheap, green creatures--preferably on elves.

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

What are peoples' opinions about Dwynen's Elite in the Elves list that made top 8?

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I was skeptical about DE's effectiveness in our list. How did he use Dwynen's Elite effectively? That is, how did it help to go wider in the meta. My instinct was that it wouldn't help enough, but clearly it did something.

LoR

Anybody see this sideboard?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=95730

I have a feeling it's more a case of "better spicy than good," but with lands picking up maybe it's a good way to shore up Punishing Fire matchups and score some free postboard wins. I think I'd rather devote those slots to help Miracles, though, especially with it turning up as ~20% of the field.

I'm on Chokes right now as I've found them better than Grip. Grip is a powerful effect but requires you follow it up right away with something good in order to get ahead. Choke can lock the Miracles player right out of the game if played at the right time, imposing an enormous cost on their top activations.

Sidenote:

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Originally Posted by Valentino_Marino

3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Bayou
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Pendelhaven
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Shaman of the Pack

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Try ordering your decklist e.g. creatures, then spells, then lands, or by CMC. As is it's very hard to parse what is different about it than any other stock list.

I wish The Source has some deck formatting tags, but this is what works best for me in the mean time.

Spells (29+11=40)	Lands (20)	Sideboard (15)
1 Fyndhorn Elves 2 Birchlore Rangers 3 Heritage Druid 3 Nettle Sentinel 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Quirion Ranger 4 Wirewood Symbiote 4 Elvish visionary 1 Reclamation Sage 1 Wren's Run Packmaster 2 Craterhoof Behemoth 4 Glimpse of Nature 4 Green Sun's Zenith 3 Natural Order	2 Dryad Arbor 2 Forest 2 Bayou 1 Pendelhaven 4 Verdant Catacomb 3 Wooded Foothills 2 Windswept Heath 4 Gaea's Cradle	1 Pithing Needle 2 Surgical Extraction 1 Disfigure 2 Cabal Therapy 3 Thoughtseize 1 Null Rod 1 Sylvan Library 1 Scavenging Ooze 3 Abrupt Decay

Wish I got to play more. The local weeklies have kind of dried up, so I've been limited to larger "regional" style events instead. We shall see.
I'm liking the removal of Progenitus from the board so far, and it's modified the way I sideboard in a couple matchups with Natural Order - which is interesting at least.
2 Surgical seems to be more relevant now; at least it seems like there are more matchups where I can rationalize it.
I'm not sure I understand Krosan Grip, it seems like a fourth Abrupt Decay would be more reasonable if having a fourth spell is really important - especially with Miracles bringing in all sorts of bears and Staticaster sometimes. The corner case, I guess, is stuff like Blood Moon (which isn't too difficult to play around/through), Moat, Aluren (lol), and maybe Humility or something.

Hi guys,

Quick question:

Do I get to bounce an elf with a needled symbiote even if I cannot untap a creature or does needle also prevent me from using the bounce cost ?

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Hi guys,

Quick question:

Do I get to bounce an elf with a needled symbiote even if I cannot untap a creature or does needle also prevent me from using the bounce cost ?

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It prevents you from activating the ability at all, so you can't even announce it, let alone pay costs or get an effect proposal on the stack.

So after playing in the MOCS Prelim. twice this week, this meta really isn't healthy towards Elves. Almost all the fair matchups have been hated out by Storm and the number of unfair decks being played seems to be at an all time high. Decks like Miracles, Storm, Lands, Show and Tell were all decks I played against. If anyone is playing tomorrow morning I would recommend Thorn, splashing for Gaddock Teeg or possibly adding Thar. Ooze was an allstar against both Lands, Burn (Burn seems to be the counter to all the Storm running around right now)

Best of luck to those who qualified!

100% agreed. Also, Burn is usually big in the Legacy MOCS because it gives you the best value for your dollar when coming in from the outside.

I'm currently looking at something like this for the MOCS (see below). I'm not happy about the Progenitus but it's really hard to find anything that's good enough vs Lands. In the end though, the deck is so expensive on MTGO, I might just completly ignore it. It's not like there are great options for it anyways.


http://i.imgur.com/KptDol7.jpg

What led you to cutting the MD sage and Library for the 2 Llanowars?

For this tournament? Speed. Data shows that SFM is super dead right now, so I feel a little bit safer shifting the RecSage to the sb.

That's fair. If you're expecting a lot of burn and combo Elves will be pretty good to ramp out faster wins. Looking forward to the stream.

Streaming the Legacy MOCS, the last Legacy PTQ ever, right now. Join us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian :cool:

Andrew Cuneo finished 2nd at the MOCS with Elves. Notable feature include 1 Llanowar Elves and 1 Fyndhorn Elves in the main and Elderscale Wurm in the sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Also, a new RG legend was probably leaked:

Mina and Denn :2::r::g:
Legendary Creature - Elf Ally
You may play an additional land during each of your turns.
:r::g:, Return a land you control to its owner's hand: Target creature gains trample until end of turn.
4/4

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Can bounce Cradles and just naturally enable extra Cradles and make Arbor shenaniganry smoother.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Can bounce Cradles and just naturally enable extra Cradles and make Arbor shenaniganry smoother.

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Not sure it's worth the Red to do it though.

It costs 4 mana... I declare Danger of cool stuff.

Good to see that Cuneo and Reid were were following the same kind of thinking I did and included 2 (or 1 in Reid's case) Llanowar Elves in their lists. Especially on Magic Online, and likely even in Paper, I really like that. And if you look at Cuneo's sideboard with 11 (4 TS, 3 CT, 2 MBT, 2 SE) cards vs Storm, you can definitely see where he wanted to be.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Good to see that Cuneo and Reid were were following the same kind of thinking I did and included 2 (or 1 in Reid's case) Llanowar Elves in their lists. Especially on Magic Online, and likely even in Paper, I really like that. And if you look at Cuneo's sideboard with 11 (4 TS, 3 CT, 2 MBT, 2 SE) cards vs Storm, you can definitely see where he wanted to be.

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this elderscale wurm seems (??????)

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Originally Posted by jarvisyu

this elderscale wurm seems (??????)

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Cute.

It keeps you from getting killed but doesn't help you win.

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Originally Posted by jarvisyu

this elderscale wurm seems (??????)

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Really hard to Punishing Fire it to death.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Cute.

It keeps you from getting killed but doesn't help you win.

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People keep saying this, but it won me 3 games on my way to a trop this weekend.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You might laugh but I came very close to putting it into my sideboard for this event. Reasoning was that it stops Marit Lage until they get to the 11 mana needed to destroy it with Punishing Fire.

I only had that idea a couple of minutes before the event and didn't really have enough time to think it through. I also decided that there probably wouldn't be enough (super expensive online) Lands deck to make it worth. But it's definitely a thing. I already played several paper tournaments with it in the past, but that was against the BG Hexmage Depths.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

You might laugh but I came very close to putting it into my sideboard for this event. Reasoning was that it stops Marit Lage until they get to the 11 mana needed to destroy it with Punishing Fire.

I only had that idea a couple of minutes before the event and didn't really have enough time to think it through. I also decided that there probably wouldn't be enough (super expensive online) Lands deck to make it worth. But it's definitely a thing. I already played several paper tournaments with it in the past, but that was against the BG Hexmage Depths.

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I was actually going to suggest it when you posted you where playing Progenitus, but you where already in game when I saw your post so there was no point.

Trust me, this guy is a pain. Use it, the use Rec Sage to kill the Explorations and Ooze to eat the Fires. This little prick will buy you more than enough time to cause issues.

Reid just uploaded a full 4 round Daily Event video with Elves to Channel Fireball. Check it out: http://www.channelfireball.com/video...-legacy-elves/

Here's my commentary regarding the different situations:

Hey Reid, thanks for the videos. A couple of things as I notice them:

R1G1: On turn two your math is off. Your attack with Craterhoof would actually be for 9 (as you initially even said, but then somehow reduced to 8) and put him dead next turn. But even if it still wasn't a 2-turn-clock (it is!) you should still NO for several reasons:

1) as you mentioned, Duress
2) Reducing his life significantly already puts him in a potentially awkward Ad Nauseam
3) Even if it was a 3turn clock (it isn't) you would have 15 outs that would win the game on the spot (Craterhoof, 2 NOs, GSZ, Wirewood, Quirion Ranger).

SB: don't like cutting Llanowar Elves as it's an enabler for t2 GSZ for Gaddock. The longer you keep that GSZ in hand, the more prone to discard it becomes..or even just dying on his turn2/3.

R1G2: I would very much prefer to Zenith Quirion Ranger instead of another Arbor there. It makes you lose 1 land drop, but Quirion Ranger likely increases your clock by a turn and/or gives you more control over the graveyard. It's not 100% guaranteed value so we need to consider the lost land drop, which I think is worth the additional, likely value. You don't have a black source yet, but there's already 2 lands in the graveyard with likely 1-2 more to follow over the course of the game. And any black source you draw makes DRS go nuts right away.

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R2G1: Especially when I'm already getting a combo-ish vibe from my opponent, I would rather play Wirewood over the second Nettle Sentinel. It means we're missing out on 1 damage on the next turn, *but* allows us to still have acess to DRS on the opponent's turn. It's a very narrow thing, but that Bloodstained Mire is what would have made me opt for that play instead of the 2nd Sentinel. Even though several Grixis decks play without basics, they still won't/shouldn't chose to go with Mire because it gives away the info that they are all non-basic, which can matter in some rare situations.

R2G2: TinFins is even faster than ANT and also runs Brainstorm, making a turn2 Discard spell really awkward. I agree that we get *much* more value on our turn2 if we lead with DRS, but TinFins is also the kind of deck that can really crumble if you go t1, t2 discard on the play. Depending on what we see with the TS, we might even be safe to DRS on turn2.
This particular version of TinFins (I think this one is V 2.0; we're currently at 3.0) seems to be a little slower since it's apparently running Burning Wish. I still think this isn't enough of an indicator to not Thoughtseize on turn1.

Still R2G2: Would have named Shallow Grave with the first Therapy. Reanimate is turned off, Exhume is probably only a 1 or 2 of since it doesn't interact with Emrakul and gives the opp value as well. Goryo's Vengeance is another consideration, but he hasn't shown any yet and I guess he had to cut back on something for Wish. If we whiff, we can still take whatever other resurrection-spell he has left; as I pointed out it's unlikely that he would have two different of those with one not being Shallow Grave.
I know where you were heading with not flashing back Therapy as it gives you a lot more options on the following turn and will probably will the game if he whiffs, but those are not the kind of odds I would want to take vs TinFins. It's also not only Ritual and Petal but also all of his 4 Griselbrands as an out because he can use BS to put Shallow Grave on top, play the 2nd land, Ponder, resp crack LED to discard Griselbrand, draw and cast Shallow Grave.

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R3 Sideboarding: Agreed very much with your sideboarding. There's two different schools of thought: some wanna keep NO and side out Glimpse, others do as we do. I think NO just too much of a liability in this matchup. If it gets answered by Terminus, you're usually in a horrible spot, because it suddenly really complicated to once again create a board that allows you to NO again in a meaningful way; most of the time, the next Terminus is already waiting by then. Glimpse on the other hand isn't that hit-or-miss while still allowing for the occassional combo win — even through Terminus on the same turn; I've done it only like 3 or 4 times in my life and it's surely not what's tipping the scales in favor of it over NO, but it nevertheless feels amazing.

R3G3: You already mentioned that you should have played the Symbiote. Not only because of Terminus, but also because having it down is much better vs a potential CB on turn2, allowing you to have the harder to establish half of the Best-Friends-Team (WS+EV) on the board.

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R4: True Bizzaro Reanimator :P

Hello guys!

12.12 I will be playing Annual Topdeck.ru Legacy Cup Tournament, Moscow.
~ 100 people there, and it seems that the metagame will be full of combo decks: ANT + some reanimators, Dredges and even Solidarity.
Russian metagame also has a lot of Miracles, Grixis Tempo and lots of Delver Variations.

I am really worried about combos that are faster than the Green Legion. There are a lot of really strong ANT players and I didn't really practice a lot this matchup.
Should I play Savannah and add some Gaddock Teegs/Thalias in main(side)board?
Or maybe a Taiga for a mainboard Ruric-Thar? Or should I just skip this bullshit and add more hate in my sideboard?

My sideboard is:

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Ruric Thar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Natural Order (I have 3 NO and a Sylvan Library in maindeck - this is a flexible slot)
1 Progenitus

I play 61 card maindeck with Scavenging Ooze, Sylvan Library, 3 Birchlore Rangers (Morph + any color mana is cool tech, I don't like Llanowar Elves), evrything else is quite common.

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Originally Posted by EEk1TwEEk

Hello guys!

12.12 I will be playing Annual Topdeck.ru Legacy Cup Tournament, Moscow.
~ 100 people there, and it seems that the metagame will be full of combo decks: ANT + some reanimators, Dredges and even Solidarity.
Russian metagame also has a lot of Miracles, Grixis Tempo and lots of Delver Variations.

I am really worried about combos that are faster than the Green Legion. There are a lot of really strong ANT players and I didn't really practice a lot this matchup.
Should I play Savannah and add some Gaddock Teegs/Thalias in main(side)board?
Or maybe a Taiga for a mainboard Ruric-Thar? Or should I just skip this bullshit and add more hate in my sideboard?

My sideboard is:

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Ruric Thar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Natural Order (I have 3 NO and a Sylvan Library in maindeck - this is a flexible slot)
1 Progenitus

I play 61 card maindeck with Scavenging Ooze, Sylvan Library, 3 Birchlore Rangers (Morph + any color mana is cool tech, I don't like Llanowar Elves), evrything else is quite common.

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If you expect a lot of Combo I would play Ruric as 61st with 4 NO main. Not sure if the Taiga is necessary when you have 3 BR main but I found myself often there with a Ruric in Hand an no red source. I like the one off Cavern of Souls main deck. Especially when you have to face Miracles and even other blue stuff. It did also well against 4C-Loam in my last games.

What would you guys prefer with Ruric as 61st? 20 land configuration, 2 Arbor, 8 Fetchies, 4 Cradle, 2 Forest, 2 Bayou and the other? Cavern with Taiga? Haven and Cavern? I think i want the Taiga. Not sure. In a really blue meta it gives you a real possibility to play Pyroblast maybe but I think the SB is full enough... I really think a lot about these few Cards.

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Originally Posted by Valentino_Marino

If you expect a lot of Combo I would play Ruric as 61st with 4 NO main. Not sure if the Taiga is necessary when you have 3 BR main but I found myself often there with a Ruric in Hand an no red source. I like the one off Cavern of Souls main deck. Especially when you have to face Miracles and even other blue stuff. It did also well against 4C-Loam in my last games.

What would you guys prefer with Ruric as 61st? 20 land configuration, 2 Arbor, 8 Fetchies, 4 Cradle, 2 Forest, 2 Bayou and the other? Cavern with Taiga? Haven and Cavern? I think i want the Taiga. Not sure. In a really blue meta it gives you a real possibility to play Pyroblast maybe but I think the SB is full enough... I really think a lot about these few Cards.

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Thank you!
But I actually play 19 lands: 9 fetch, 2 bayou, 4 cradle, 2 forest, 2 Dryad Arbor.
And I feel pretty comfortable with this mix, maybe I am just lucky, don't know :P
I also thought about putting 1 Taiga instead of 1 Forest to hardcast Ruric-Thar.

But 1 Cavern... We cannot find it with fetch )

And 0 Cavern... We cannot find it at all.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

And 0 Cavern... We cannot find it at all.

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I totally agree with that.
What sideboard would you recommend to play in metagame with a lot of combo decks + Miracles, grixis tempo, TA, Delver variations decks?

Depends on how much you hate Miracles. If you wanna address both Miracles and Storm really hard, I'd go with:

4 Thoughtseize (vs Miracles & Storm)
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Cavern of Souls (1 already Maindeck)
1 Scavenging Ooze

Maindeck with 3 NO, 1 Sylvan Library and Reclamation Sage. Your sideboard is rather unexciting vs most Delver decks, but it's decent. You get Decays, Ooze and against Canadian also 3 Cabal Therapy vs Rough/Tumble and/or Cantrips to find it.

You could also play 2 Choke instead of the 2 SB Cavern, which will give you even more game vs especially Grixis. I don't like them very much vs BUG Delver though.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

And 0 Cavern... We cannot find it at all.

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Then the Pendelhaven is also obsolete?!

Resolving a Glimpse chain is a good way to find the one or other Card. It worked well in the last games but I understand your point.
How do you feel about 19 lands? I also thought about it to add one Llanowar in but it feelt fragile.

When you add Ruric to your 61 prepare yourself to see him in your Hand. This little bastard has the same bad habit as the stupid snake you don't want to see in your hand. And if the reason for not casting him is that you have no red source you'r pretty unlucky =D

I think you missunderstood what I was trying to say: people usually dismiss untutorable 1ofs as being "too random". I was trying to ridicule that position by pointing out how 0 Cavern was even more "random". Because what these people mean by "random" is actually "unlikely".

Pendelhaven is awesome and surprisingly good vs Miracles as well as it will often allow you to attack into open mana, not having to fear Containment Prest or Snapcaster. It can also often break the board wide open when you've got a bunch of 1/1s vs your opponent single DRS, SFM, Pyromancer etc. Also lots of other value vs Jitte, P-Fire, Rough // Tumble, Golgari Charm, Pyroclasm, Grim Lavamancer, you name it.

@Valentino: I think you (and this goes for EekTweek as well) have to realise that you can't consider Dryad Arbor and Gaea's Cradle as lands, in the traditional sense. As far as deckbuilding is concerned, Dryad Arbor is considered a creature and Gaea's Cradle a (mana ritual) spell.

To not fuck yourself in the ass with too many mulligans, you need to make sure you have at least 14 initial (green) manasources. It leaves you with a 14% chance of not having any mana on turn 1, meaning 1 in 7 hands you'll have to mulligan b/c it's a no-lander. Cutting a fetch or basic effectively lowers your land count from 14 to 13 as opposed from 20 to 19. The implication here being that the impact of moving from 14 to 13 is a lot bigger then the supposed move from 20 to 19.

I've been playing with the idea as well but can't find myself to do it. If you wish to cut a "land", cut a Dryad Arbor. At least that doesn't cause you to mulligan more often due to landscrew.

Oh I think I really missunderstood =)
I like both Cards, too. Cavern and Haven even as one off. But as long as I have Ruric main I want to have access to a red source and I can't find me cutting a Forest....

Do you bring in the additional Cavern only against Miracles und Chalice Decks? Maybe having two Cavern main is more important preboard. Daze FoW CB Chalice and so on. and the Haven in one of the Cavern SB Slots?!
I just thought about that. I think preboard we can better handle the stuff where Haven helps than the other.

Cutting an Arbor is an Option I thought about too. For me it is one of the hardest decisions I have to make =DD

@Julian: How did you think about RecS in the SB after MOCS?

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Originally Posted by Echelon

@Valentino: I think you (and this goes for EekTweek as well) have to realise that you can't consider Dryad Arbor and Gaea's Cradle as lands, in the traditional sense. As far as deckbuilding is concerned, Dryad Arbor is considered a creature and Gaea's Cradle a (mana ritual) spell.

To not fuck yourself in the ass with too many mulligans, you need to make sure you have at least 14 initial (green) manasources. It leaves you with a 14% chance of not having any mana on turn 1, meaning 1 in 7 hands you'll have to mulligan b/c it's a no-lander. Cutting a fetch or basic effectively lowers your land count from 14 to 13 as opposed from 20 to 19. The implication here being that the impact of moving from 14 to 13 is a lot bigger then the supposed move from 20 to 19.

I've been playing with the idea as well but can't find myself to do it. If you wish to cut a "land", cut a Dryad Arbor. At least that doesn't cause you to mulligan more often due to landscrew.

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Well that's an interesting thought actually. I never considered playing a single Dryad arbor, but now that you've mentioned it, I have even more questions than I did before :smile:
Nevertheless thank you for your advice.

2 Julian: Wow, that sideboard is rather radical ^^

I will think over it, watch some streams, play some games and then I'll write a report here on what did I do and what went terrible wrong :)