Mulligan if I am playing 4 Revokers and 4 Thalia in the main. If that is a postboard 7, mulligan no matter what.
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Mulligan if I am playing 4 Revokers and 4 Thalia in the main. If that is a postboard 7, mulligan no matter what.
I would definitely mull that hand, it doesn't really do much of anything, at least not against storm decks in general. There's no taxer, no revoker, no cannonist, nothing that really hates against them. Waste and Port are decent, but Storm doesn't need land to make mana and go off, so they help a little, but they don't do nearly enough without any back up hate.
You should probably mull because I am happy to play against that kind of hand. That being said, if your deck only has Thalia and Revoker (no Wingmares, Canonists, whatever) I don't think you can expect much more from a mulligan. By keeping you at least get to gamble on your opponent not making sufficient land drops.
This is exactly why I think the matchup favours Storm though; even your above average hands are not very good. But take this all with a grain of salt, I have only played the matchup from the Storm perspective.
so with all the hype about Eldrazi porting into legacy and people scrambling to include extra removal in their sideboards, what are your thoughts on Intrepid Hero? Kills all of their big dudes, and would also be pretty good against Show and Tell, Reanimator, and Knight of the Reliquary decks. The real question is, would it also be a reasonable inclusion against tarmogoyf decks? The one toughness stinks, but I've always felt that big creatures like Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary can be a problem for DnT... Thoughts?
Mangara allready does the same thing and is a better card overall so there is no need for the hero.
Yes, I had thought about that, and I am in fact still playing 1 Mangara of Corondor maindeck, which has never disappointed me. However, let's not ignore the fact that hero can just use his ability repeatedly without needing Karakas and a ton of extra mana or vial on 3 to re-cast it. Against aggro decks filled with huge creatures, that can make a huge difference. However, I do agree that Mangara is a better overall card and I might just decide to go back up to 2 maindeck copies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuuch
Went 4-3-1 at Philadelphia SCG Open. I was staying in at X-3 as long as possible, but then I went 3-3-1 and played until my partner (who was grading papers in our hotel room on a Saturday night because teachers rock) was ready for dinner.
[deck]Creatures 26
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Mangara of Corondor
Spells 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawas Jitte
Lands 23
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Kor Haven
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan port
4 Wasteland
10 Plains
2 Containment Priest
2 Councils Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Path to Exile
1 Warping Wail
1 Enlightened Tutor[/deck]
Card notes:
Ratchet Bomb was not needed with everything else I ran. Absolute Law, Seal of Cleansing, Grafdigger's Cage or Mindbreak Trap would have been better. Given what I face, it will be Cage or Trap.
Warping Wail was amazing. I got to live the DnT dreams. Warping Wail countering Reanimate FTW. Warping Wail to kill Metalworker. Warping Wail to counter Terminus. Warping Wail countering Massacre. This card is money.
Kor Haven would have saved me in games against Reanimator, but I kept drawing Karakas. However, Kor did allow me to cast Warping Wail 1x, which was the point. Ultimately, it was here to mess over Lands and Reanimator and I felt okay because there were a fair amount of both. Will I keep it in? Not sure.
Brimaz, King of Oreskos is the card I HATE the most. I know it has good matches, but it hates me and I hate it back. Never again. Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger forever!!!!!
Matches
Round 1 vs. Merfolk 2-0
This match was never really close. Game 1, I had vial, he did not, and I was able to overwhelm him with Serra Avengers. Game 2, He has Mutavault, Aether Vial, and Island, but I Wasteland his Mutavault and Revoker his Aether Vial and beat him to death.
Round 2 vs. Storm 1-2
I played a tight game 1 and then made crucial mistakes games 2 and 3. Game 2, I knew I screwed up immediately. I had Vial on 2, Revoker and Brimaz in hand, had him at 6 and if I vial in Brimaz, I kill him. However, Revoker stops his only out, Lion's Eye Diamond, but I was not paying attention and auto-ticked Vial to 3. Needless to say, I lose to LED. Game 3, I mulligan to 5, but have Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and [card]Rest in Peace[/card] in hand with 2 mana on the board and no other lands in hand and I have to choose which one to cast. I played RiP, thinking I would want that immediately and then cast Thalia next turn, which was exactly wrong. Talked with Medea and AntiquatedNotion (MTGSalvation names) and they confirmed it. So I lost this match entirely on my own mistakes.
Round 3 vs. MUD 2-0
Played a great guy I have played before at Eternal Extravaganza. Fun games, but a fast set. Not sure I needed it, but I killed Metalworker with WW game 2. I got the Mangara Lock game 1, which was super sweet.
Round 4 vs. Shardless BUG 0-2
This should be better, but he has the nut game 1 and I have a soft hand and flood out, while he gets Liliana of the Veil. Game 2, I mulligan to 5, keeping 4 lands and StP. He does turn 2 discard and I lose Rishadan Port and StP. I should have played Port turn 1 to protect it, instead of Wasteland, but otherwise it was bad. I made a game of it, but never really found any gas. I wasn't quite out of it either game and he had to hit exact answers each game to my weak board, which he did. I feel like this was just variance.
Round 5 vs. MUD 0-2
Because I can't play MUD in my first 5 games often enough. This is three major tournaments in a row with at least 2 games versus MUD in my first 5 rounds. Unlike the first round where I found all the important cards, this time I can't find anything. Game 2 mulligan into oblivion. Nothing exceptional, for better or worse, in my game.
Round 6 vs. vs. No show
I beat this player mercilessly. The first game was over as soon as the round started and ten minutes later I won the round.
So now I am 3-3 and every game counts because 6-3 might get me in.
Round 7 vs. Miracles 1-1
I played a very tight game 1, keeping him off of his usual. The guy seems a little unusual because he isn't really making efficient use of every Top activation, but okay. Game 2, I have a weakish hand, but not unkeepable (no vial, which came back to bit me in the butt), with Mom and Thalia and Warping Wail. He gets a Jace lock that I can't quite get through, but I get an opening where he still doesn't have Counterbalance, but he does have 2 mana and Jace is on 1, so I cast Wail to make a a token, swing in with the token and he flashes in Containment Priest and kills it on the block. I will end up severely regretting this, even though killing Jace would allow me to play Mirran Crusader and Mangara of Corondor, so I don't think it was bad. Turn 0 of time, he miracles Entreat the Angels for 5 angels to kill me to force the draw. Warping Wail would have given me a chance to stop that and win and had my clock awareness been stronger, I would have ignored Jace and kept up mana to Wail Entreat as his only viable wincon. Then I did not think to ask for a concession so one of us could go on.
Round 8 vs. Reanimator 2-1
Game 1 was simply him not finding answers to Karakas. Game 2, he gets Archetype of Endurance on the board and I have exactly zero pressure. AoE is a very strong creature against us. Game 3 is sheer beauty. He puts AoE in the yard, I Warping Wail his Reanimate, Wasteland his Underground Sea, and cast Rest in Peace. Now, the game is not over. I have only a Phyrexian Revoker, so he has time. I find Karakas and then I get to do something I have wanted to do for a long time. He plays Verdant Catacombs and passes. I play Pithing Needle and he actually allows it to resolve, I call Catacombs and he never finds a red source to burn my threats. He said at the end he literally did not think I would call his land. His friends gave him a lot of (hilarious) grief for that fail. I have to say, I played My Karakas' very carefully.
I really felt like, except for the Storm match, and maybe that Warping Wail decision in the Miracles match, I played very cleanly and made good decisions. Outside those two games, none of my plays would have made a difference in winning versus losing from what I could see and in fact, I made games out of very bad mulligans to 5 in two of them. My best big Legacy tournament so far.
EDIT:
Great to see Medea and Gary and meet AntiquatedNotion and his friend (sorry, I am the absolute worst with names). Saw a ton of people I know and met some new people. As always, big events are wonderful and the DnT community is really awesome. Studderingdave, we'll keep an eye out for you next time, shame we didn't meet.
Iatee is this you? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=99298
This list absolutely reeks of you :tongue:
thats the multplie angles of attack i was talking about, small pieces of disruption, and RIP helps, canonist survive dread of night, revoker too, massacre sometimes can play around, i still think its a close matchup but i understand you opinion and i didn΄t play this matchup for that many times like most of the people here for sure, so with more test can help a little more, i hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander
Ha yeah, that was me. The other Imperial Taxes player in d2 was my friend who was running my list w/ minor changes. I'll post a write-up later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
So after a 4-1 (2nd place) two weeks ago at my LGS weekly Legacy tournament with 34 players, this past friday I made a 4-1-0, winning the 22 players weekly tournament with a classic list mine:
MAINDECK (62):
4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Phyrexian Revoker
2 x Serra Avenger
4 x Flickerwisp
4 x Vryn Wingmare
2 x Mirran Crusader
4 x Aether Vial
4 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
4 x Wasteland
4 x Rishadan Port
7 x Plains
4 x Flagstones of Trokair
3 x Karakas
1 x Cavern of Souls
SIDEBOARD (15):
2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Mirran Crusader
3 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Sword of War and Peace
3 x Rest in Peace
Facing this time against:
R1: Golddigger changing DTT by Impulse (1-1 // 0-1-0):
In game 1 I tried to elude their removals until he cleaned the field with a Supreme Verdict and played a Jace, the Mind Sculptor the turn after. I had no answer. He started looking my topdeck and I conceded. I didn't have much more to say there and wanted to win the round. Game 2 was pretty similar but this time I was the guy who reset the game with a Cataclysm, destroying 6 of his lands and a Jace, the Mind Sculptor with 7/8 counters. I was waiting the 4th land a couple of turns while my opponent got advantage from his Jace. With the Cataclysm I kept Plains + Vial and my opponent Plains and Pithing Needle (on Vial, played on turn 2). I started drawing more lands and he cannot hold the next 3 creatures I played. In game 3 we were near the time out so I tried to play beatdown because I was the one who had a chance to win, but it wasn't enough.
R2: Infect (2-0 // 1-1-0):
I opened a great hand in game 1 with Umezawa's Jitte included, which won me the game. As game 1, I won through Umezawa's Jitte again in addition to StP, Ethersworn Canonist and a Wasteland to Inkmoth Nexus. I was very lucky this game because he didn't draw enough meat even with an early Sylvan Library in both games.
R3: Sneak & Show (2-0 // 2-1-0):
Game 1 he bet for a slow game. He didn't have the pieces of the combo and I put him a really high clock with Thalia + Wingmare + SoFaI. He only played a Brainstorm. A turn before concede he made a mistake fetching for a Mountain so I could side accordingly to the matchup. In game 2 he kept a very risky hand. He started with Island + double Lotus Petal + Show and Tell + Emrakul. I put a Mirran Crusader and in my turn bounce his Emrakul with Karakas. He conceded instantly.
R4: BG Dark Depths (2-0 // 3-1-0):
I won game 1 through a couple of Tarmogoyf and a DRS racing with a Mirran Crusader, the Batterskull germ token and a couple of Mother of Runes. In game two he didn't have enough time to get the combo off and I won racing him with a couple of flyers and the help of his Dark Confidant.
R5: Jund (2-1 // 4-1-0):
Game 1 was poorly. Typical game you lose by a lucky Hymn to Tourach. When he played it I had Stoneforge Mystic in play with Batterskull, Phyrexian Revoker and 3 lands in hand. He took Revoker and Batterskull. Next turn a Goyf hit the ground. I was going to the topdeck in turn 4... Draw a couple of lands and concede when I was at 5. In game 2 I had the game with Vial + flyers + RiP. He played Pernicious Deed. I played very risky this game and ate it entirely. We had no cards in hand after Deed. He suddenly played a Tarmogoyf and a Sulfur Elemental from the topdeck. I played a Revoker on Liliana of the Veil, equiped him the Batterskull and won game 2 with this. Game 3 was really similar. I had to play around a Deed and Engineered Explosives this game. He played the Sulfur Elemental as well. I killed him with two Jitte counters. After he cleaned the board I played Flickerwisp to Batterskull and could win with this advantage.
Last round was really hard because it was a really hateful Jund list without Dark Confidant and probably even more removal than a classic Jund: Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Punishing Fire, Abrupt Decay, Liliana of the Veil, Bolts, Sulfur Elemental...
I couldn't play BoM but even so I could get more conclusions about my actual list for upcoming events.
Right now I don't know if I have to adapt the list to the new metagame as other archetypes do... I think we can win Eldrazi deck "easily" even with Wingmares without the need to play Mangaras or other options. I think Eldrazi deck could be a good point for D&T in reference to face the metagame. I mean, Lands and 4C Loam have a good matchup against them so it is good for us if these archetypes become even more popular. Miracles and Storm probably will have to adapt a bit their lists to the Eldrazi deck. Even it is probably that we stop watching some hateful sideboard cards like Izzet Staticaster on Miracles or Dread of Night/Massacre on Storm, replacing it by Moat and Hurkyl's Recall respectively.
I don't see a way for these Eldrazi decks to get past Ensnaring Bridge. I think they would need Ulamog or something. I would certainly like some method that did not have to let them land their threats though. And forget reactive answets. They will rip them from your hand. Ghost Quarter?
It depends on the list. Ratchet Bomb and TKS-your-Bridge are two pretty easy ways for them to beat the card. It is still good against them, just like Magus is, but there aren't any guaranteed ways to punish them when they regularly have T2 Thoughtseize. The fact that it's so hard to punish is one of the most annoying features of the deck, and it's due to the fact that there isn't a history of cards that deal with colorless.
Not a history of ways to deal with colorless is so true. I could not find a single card. It seems peculiar that they printed no hosers at all with such obviously powerful aggro cards in the set.
Congrats on a strong finish, iatee!
From conversations with other DnT folks at the tournament, I feel like as a community nearly all of us were on the verge of Day 2. I threw away my Storm match, but that would have put me at 5-2-1 going into the last round, which would have been a win-and-in. Two other players went 6-3 and just missed getting in. iatee and his friend made Day 2. I think this is a reasonably strong showing for DnT given the uncertain format going in and it shows that DnT is well-positioned.
If you look at the top 32, the only openly bad match was the 1-of Elves, and if Eldrazi is really here and the other bid decks are Miracles, Lands, and Grixis Delver, Elves is going to get worse and Storm probably retains its popularity. Of course, this depends on what adjusting for the Eldrazi decks does to the format and maybe Eldrazi are a stompy blip.
7 Eldrazi
6 Lands
4 Miracles
4 Grixis Delver
2 Infect
2 Storm
1 UR Delver
1 Elves
1 Imperial Painter
1 Burn
1 DnT
1 Maverick
1 BUG Delver
I would not be surprised if the decks in bold are going to dominate the format in the short term. The other decks that made top 32 are obviously viable, but these condition our sideboard choices at big events.
For example, if we are facing Grixis Delver, as much as I want to shore up my deck versus -1/-1 effects, they don't have a lot of discard, especially randomized discard, unlike BUG Dlever, so Wilt-Leaf Liege is actually harder to play than Veteran Armorer, BUT if you look at the Grixis Delver builds, they are so focused on Eldrazi and Lands that they ran virtually no -1/-1 hate for us: only 1(!) Dread of Night in all four builds in Top 32.
Now, WLL may have some amusing applications against Eldrazi ("Sure, I'm very happy to pay the discard cost with this WLL"), and it increases our clock in that match and the mirror, but if BUG is not our main Delver opponent and Grixis Delver is, and they are going light on -1/-1 effects, then we should rethink the best sideboard options.
This is even more interesting if you look at the Day 2 breakdown as a whole:
Colorless Eldrazi 9
Lands 8
Miracles 7
Grixis Delver 4
U/R Delver 4
Infect 4
Enchantress 3
Storm 3
Esper Deathblade 3
Death and Taxes 3
Imperial Taxes 2
Burn 2
Elves 2
Four-Color Delver 1
Sultai Delver 1
MUD 1
Sultai Depths 1
Shardless Sultai 1
Imperial Painter 1
Esper Mentor 1
Omni-Tell 1
Maverick 1
Sultai Landstill 1
BUG decks were few (3 total and all entirely different decks), all the Grixis Delver players made Top 32, most of the Eldrazi, Lands, Storm, and Miracles players made Top 32. DnT had 5 decks in Top 64, but only 1 in top 32.
At least for the moment, this is the meta I am inclined to prepare for in tournaments.
I think it's ultimately because they wanted to push these cards for Standard and don't test for Modern/Legacy. A very strong, easily accessible hoser would ensure that there's no Eldrazi deck in Standard. They might have that hoser sitting around in an upcoming set, but it would have to be *very* strong (easily cast) to be Modern/Legacy playable.
Hall of gemstone
Green. Hrmph
I don't believe that works, because there is not a 'color' being replaced.
Came across this guy on the gatherer:
Mistmeadow Skulk
Protection from CMC three or higher. Can chump block reality smasher, matter reshaper, oblivion sower, and TKS. Mimic and endless one get by.
Reality Smasher does 3 damage, as the protection sucks up one, you gain a life, and 4 tramples through. It dies to their removal and doesn't really change a race unless you put a Sword on it. Most of the time it wouldn't be much different from playing a 0/6 wall, since it's too small to change a race on the attack but can't really kill anything but a suicidal Mimic.
Smashers trample is a PITA, and i imagine we deal with him with Miran Crusader or STP. Moat and Bridge seem slow and vulnerable to TKS.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Funny card. You actually can't put Batterskull or Sword on it. Only Jitte. Thanks for the angle, Grimoirepath, but this one is not the answer.
Ha right, yeah, forgot about that when I said it was only good with a Sword.
Ah, yes. Well sheeeit. Painters servant and mom?Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Painter's Servant doesn't do enough when they have countless other Sol lands, Mom doesn't protect it from Warping Wail and is a terrible card in the matchup regardless.
Eldrazi is worse for Imperial than WW. 4 Serra Avenger + 4 Flickerwisp can race them relatively well, especially if you are flickering Endless One and Chalice of the Void.
It's not an easy match, but it isn't really a bad match. I still think WW is favored slightly.
Wilt-Leaf Liege from the side is also extra-hateful, since it increases our clocks, improves our blocks, and works to get cheated onto the field when targeting Reality Smasher with removal. That said, not convinced it is necessary and if BUG Delver is not a major nemesis, probably not worth it.
That's crazy talk. If they have T1 Chalice and you don't get a Vial, Serra Avenger isn't a clock at all. Both Flickerwisp and Avenger can't trade for any of their key creatures if necessary. Imperial Taxes has the ability to get an early lock out win - you can't reliably race Reality Smashers with Avengers that sometimes can't even be cast, and can almost never profitably block.
So upon doing more testing vs eldrazi without Vryn Wingmare and instead with crusader, avenger, and a mangara, I think the matchup is far more reasonable. Playing Wingmare instead of those cards is awful if you expect a lot of eldrazi. I ended up winning more main board games than I lost (something like 8-4 or so), but I think those numbers are probably slightly skewed due to some bad luck for the eldrazi deck.
I will say that personally I felt that wastelanding any of there "sol lands" if given the opportunity was correct. They are more reliant on having 2 of those than you'd think and mana denial on them actually isn't as hard as you might expect. I don't know what the matchup is like post board but I certainly don't think it's as bad game 1 of your deck is more prepared for it
I was thinking of Riders of Gavony and Crackdown.
One naming Eldrazi and is cool only if you have lots of humans and the other hating colorless (non-white). Note that Batterskull germ token dodges it (vigilance) and Phyrexian Revoker by being 2/1.
They're both expensive, and plus Crackdown is taxed by Thalia and End Bringer dodges it.
:(
Alright, here's my SCG Philly report. I went 10-4-1.
My friend who also D2'd played my list with fewer Crusaders in the SB + Pithing Needle, Ratchet Bomb, maybe one or two other SB changes. He's playing an Ethersworn main over a Revoker and only one Plateau + one Plains. I don't think the Ethersworn over Revoker swap is right, but going down to 1 Plateau might be. Over a fairly long period of playing this build, having only two Plains has generally been more relevant than getting cut off a Plateau, and you generally aren't thrilled to see the Plateau in your opening hand.
Didn't see any other Imperial Taxes player around, but I wasn't looking too hard. Anyway I think there's never been a better time to have a tutorable Blood Moon effect somewhere in your maindeck.
Here's my list:
Creatures (26)
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vryn Wingmare
1 Mangara of Corondor
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Lands (23)
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Arid Mesa
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
2 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
Spells (11)
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Was pretty content with my maindeck, would go into another tournament with the same one right now, Mangara won a game on his own once, and was a useful effect to have around a few other times, even when I lost the game he gave me an out. Going down to 2 Flickerwisps didn't feel painful, even though it combos so well with Recruiter, that's generally win-more and is the hardest card in the deck to cast. There was one game where a topdecked Flickerwisp woulda won me the game and that was also a game where I had (most likely correctly) sideboarded out all of my Flickerwisps.
I managed to dodge most of the bad matchups - Burn, Elves, Infect - but I think Chalices everywhere might have been eating a lot of those players in early rounds and there weren't a lot left on d2.
Sideboard
3 Ethersworn Canonist - I sideboarded these guys in 0/15 times, just weird set of matches overall.
1 Containment Priest - Bring this in for 'serious tournaments' and it feels like a responsible choice, especially when you can fetch it with Recruiter, but he really comes in so infrequently.
1 Fireslinger - Came in vs D+T, was useful.
1 Leonin Relic-Warder - Came in a few times. Manic Vandal woulda been better for me this tournament in most but not all of the games I played. (Vial on 2 to steal a Jitte was the exception.)
1 Magus of the Moon - Came in a lot. Could even go up to 4 in the 75 if Eldrazi and Lands stay so popular.
3 Mirran Crusader - Came in a lot. Going from an x/1 prison build g1 to a beater build g2 worked really well in general against BUG and Miracles.
2 Rest in Peace - Came in a lot
1 Path to Exile - Came in a lot. BUG Delver w/ no basics, D+T as extra removal, 3 Lands decks as a way better option than StP for Marit Lage.
2 Warping Wail - Came in a few times vs Miracles and D+T, never got to use it but woulda if the 3rd D+T game went longer or if the Miracles games weren't so one sided.
R1 - Shardless BUG (2-0 games) (1-0 matches)
G1 - Was pretty happy when I realized he was on a BUG deck, this build is naturally oppresssive for slow 3c decks, and I had 3 Mirran Crusader in the SB too. He played some things G1 and but was eventually Magused + Mom'd. I did this while he had a DRS with a few activations left, and I had no basics out, but I did have a Batterskull to match his goyf and a live Vial. He eventually naturally drew into a basic Forest, but he was never going to kill the Magus and couldn't pressure my life at all.
G2 - He mulled, then double Thoughseized me, took Mirran Crusader each time. I draw into the 3rd within the first few turns of the game.
R2 -Maverick (1-1-1 games) (1-0-1 matches)
G1 - I have a Vial/Thalia/Wingmare/Wingmare/Flickerwisp opening hand, and all I see out of his deck are 2 Scavenging Ooze, a Wasteland and a basic Forest (which he played T1). Not entirely sure what he's on, could be Jund, Aggro Loam, Maverick, some weird brew. I don't SB heavily, just bring in the Mirran Crusaders and take out the Maguses and a flyer. My game 1 plan seemed to have stopped him, regardless.
G2 - Turns out it was Maverick, which was really unfortunate cause I woulda sideboarded way differently. Took out Thalias for sure. This unfortunate situation was compounded when he E-tutored for Engineered Plague-on-human, and I drew into a bunch of Thalias. I had a Mirran Crusader to keep me alive on defense for a decent amount of time, but eventually he had too many threats and I drew too many dead cards.
G3 - Sideboarded properly, have a strong Vial hand, but he has a T1 Pithing Needle. Eventually my Mirran Crusader takes him to 1 life on turns, but he has a StP. He makes a Marit Lage token via KotR but I StP it and have enough blockers to force a draw.
R3 - BUG Delver (2-0 games) (2-0-1 matches)
G1 - We get a deck check. Opponent (from Europe) keeps an eye on the judge to ensure he doesn't sneak off with our decks. He mentions someone did that once in Europe at a Vintage tournament. I'm happy he cares about a judge not stealing his deck, because that means he's not playing Burn or Dredge. Deck check comes back fine, I StP his Delver and hold him off until Magus lands. Bring in the Crusaders, RiP, Path, take out some x/1s.
G2 - This is more of a game and he gets a Golgari Charm off that wipes my strong board. He has a Clique in play as a clock - I draw Recruiter for Magus, have Karakas to bounce his Clique when he doesn't have enough mana to recast it, then cast cavern'ed Magus into Rest in Peace for the lock. We play a G3 for fun and it's another blowout.
R4 - UWR Stoneblade (2-0) (3-0-1 matches)
G1 - I see plateau and blue duals, his mana gets pressured and he doesn't get anywhere. I think he bolted something or another, there was enough evidence that I knew he was on Stoneblade not Miracles. Bring in Relic Warder, Crusaders, take out StPs.
G2 - Fairly long game, he gets out a Batterskull early and I let it hit me down to a fairly low life total. He gets a Dack Fayden in play, steals my Vial on 3, luckily I didn't have any equipment in play yet. Eventually I get Sofi on a Wingmare, kill his Dack and take back control of the game.
R5 - Esper Mentor (1-2) (3-1-1)
G1 - Turn 1 he plays basic Island, Ponder. I put him on Miracles. Turn 2 Cabal Therapy for Thalia (which I didn't have, but then draw into) - now I put him on Storm and attack with Mom. I have a vial on 2 and reallly hope he's on Storm cause the topdecked surprise Thalia would wreck his turn. Instead he fetches for a white dual and StP's my tapped Mom - yikes, okay, bad read. But Thalia + more pressure ends up taking the game without him playing much else. Now I put him on Esper Stoneblade (misreading his deck for the 3rd time) with Lingering Souls+Cabal Therapy, take out the StPs for Crusaders and Relic Warder, but don't actually bring in RiP since I'm not 100% sure how graveyard dependent he is gonna be after board.
G2 - Nope, turns out it was a very graveyard dependent Esper Mentors / tokens deck, with Bitterblossom. I still woulda had a fine game if it weren't for Null Rod shutting off all my equipment. He eventually wrecks me with a large board of creatures. Sideboard properly after this game, bring back all the StPs for Mentors and whatever else.
G3 - Have a very strong Vial hand if he doesn't have T2 Null Rod - which he does. Game goes very long - I end up drawin all 4 Vials throughout the game. Eventually the board is cleared and we're both topdecking, I have a RiP to match his Null Rod - both of us playing with pretty nerfed decks. He draws a Clique and a Strix and starts pressuring my life, I draw Relic Warder for Null Rod, attach Jitte to it, trade to get temporary Jitte counters / kill them both. He draws into Mentor -> Lingering Souls, I draw StP, he Disenchants something for another Mentor token. I draw 2 Mirran Crusaders and put him to 4. My last turn of the game is I have two Mirran Crusaders, he has two tapped Lingering Souls tokens + 2 Mentor tokens to chump block, I'm at 2 life, he's at 4. A Flickerwisp would win on the spot, if I draw another Flyer or StP he has to draw something live to not lose. I believe I sideboarded out almost all of the flyers, since he had Bitterblossom + Lingering Souls. I draw a land and concede. If any of my 4 Aether Vials had been *any* creature, I win the game.
R6 - Miracles (2-0) (4-1-1)
G1 - Happy to get a Miracles matchup after being in the Miracles bracket for so long. This build is very heavily favored against Miracles unless they have a super hateful sideboard. G1 I have a Vial + Mangara lock hand, he unfortunately has his own Karakas which means I'm gonna have to wait until he taps it on his turn or I draw an answer before I get the lock going. I durdle around and stop him from doing much until I get a Wasteland for his Karakas and get the lock going, cutting him off white mana, he scoops. Put in Mirran Crusaders and a Warping Wail, take out Maguses, Flickerwisp, StP.
G2 - He has another slow hand and I have another Vial hand, he just never draws into anything relevant, despite having sideboarded a lot of relevant stuff.
R7 - D+T (2-1) (5-1-1)
G1 - Sat near this guy all day and he kept joking about how we'd play - so we both know what we're facing. He's on the play and T2 SFM. I have some things I can do to avoid it getting online immediately but eventually it's online and I can't come back. Bring in Warping Wails, Path, Relic Warder, Fireslinger, Mirran Crusaders. Take out Thalias / Wingmares.
G2 - Long game, he has a Batterskull + 2 Moms out early and starts getting ahead on life. He gets a Sword of War and Peace into play, which seems like it should be insane against me but it actually does quite little in the end, since life swings don't matter as much as the board state and I don't mind when he hits me with it. I Revoker his Moms, Firesling them, eventually Firesling my own Revoker to get my own Mom back online, and take over the game.
G3 - Short game, goes to time, I am heavily ahead and get a Mirran Crusader + equipment out to kill him in turns.
R8 - Miracles (2-0) (6-1-1)
G1 - He keeps a loose 1 land Ponder hand, fetches for a Tundra, gets punished by Wasteland.
G2 - I have a reasonable Vial hand and have a fast enough clock that his Terminus doesn't do it.
R9 - BUG Control (2-0) (7-1-1)
G1 - This is for D2, so I'm very happy to be paired against another BUG deck. Durdly start, but eventually Magus him. Bring in Crusaders, RiPs.
G2 - Tutor for Crusader early, he gets a TNN and they just sit across from each other, he can't attack because he's behind on life. Eventually I get RiP and some taxing effects, have a turn where I can equip SoFI to Crusader and attack for the win - but would lose to Abrupt Decay - so I just wait and pressure his mana until he literally can't cast it.
R10 - MUD w/ Thought Knot Seer (2-0) (8-1-1)
G1 - His first 3 lands were Posts, so I was leaning towards him being on 12 Post, I have a Vial and Ports, mostly pressure his mana but leave him open for a turn so I can build pressure - then he Thought Knots me - I have two Revokers and a Wingmare. He casts Metalworker, which gets Revokered. He Wastelands one of my Ports, leaving me with Cavern, Plains, Port, I draw Recruiter and Recruiter + Magus on T4, essentially ending the game. Bring in Relic Warder, Magus, Path.
G2 - I don't remember the details but it wasn't close, another Vial plus early Magus I think.
R11 - Lands (1-2) (8-2-1) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=99299)
G1 - Well known SCG grinder who T8'd. I beat him last time we played at Eternal Weekend and he remembered it, so I wasn't gonna get a surprise Magus win. Anyway, 7 card hand is only Wasteland/Port, 6 card hand is only a Fetch, 5 card hand is passable but slow and he's on the play, so he has enough time to set up before I can do anything relevant. Take out 3 StP, Thalia, Jitte, bring in RiPs, Path to Exile, Relic Warder.
G2 - I have an okay 7, no Vial and no Red cards, but enough action to keep. We play early Wasteland for Wastelands. He plays an early Molten Vortex, and my internal expected win % calculator goes down to like 20% since the rest of my hand involves casting creatures that immediately die to Molten Vortex, and if he has anything else going for him he probably wins. But he's low on Lands in hand and in play because he has to keep tossing them to kill my creatures - stuck on Taiga and Port - and I have two Wingmare so he can never cast a Loam. Cast Relic Warder for the Vortex and he scoops.
G3 - I mull to 6, he has an exploration -> combo hand with a 20/20 attacking me on T3. I had a generically strong 6 card hand (something like Vial, Mom, Thalia, Sfm, two lands) and woulda been able to survive and maybe win if I drew a Karakas, removal spell, or Wasteland. I kinda left myself open to this by only keeping 2 removal spells in the deck, but I am pretty sure that keeping all 4 StP is wrong, since two in your opening hand is so terrible.
R12 Hexmage Depths (2-0) (9-2-1) http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=99297
G1 - T1, Urborg, Inquisition, not sure what he's on, most likely Pox. T2 Exploration Map...still not really sure until he gets a Dark Depths with it. He goes for the combo early with Hexmage but I've drawn a StP in the two turns since he saw my hand. Sorta makes up for the previous game. Side in Crusaders, Magus I think I left 2 Stp + Path this time since this deck is more aggressive about going for the combo and I'm the one with inevitability.
G2 - Another T1 Inquisition, sees a clear hand and goes for an early combo, I topdeck Karakas. Pop his Marit, Recruit for Mangara lock. He had double Pithing Needle for Mangara and Vial, but not much else. His deck has almost zero ways to deal with a resolved Magus, so attempting to combo with imperfect information was the right play.
R13 Eldrazi (0-2) (9-3-1) http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=99291
G1 - I knew he was on Eldrazi since he was playing an Eldrazi mirror next to me during a previous match. I keep a reasonable hand, T1 Aether Vial and Wasteland, Mom flashes in to block his Mimic and gets Dismembered. Odd sequence. He then double Thought Knot Seers me and I can't keep up the race. Take out Moms, Thalia, Wingmare put in Path to Exile, Relic Warder, Crusaders, Magus.
G2 - Another strong hand, Vial + STP + Wasteland + Recruiter = I have a lot of the cards I want. T1 Vial, he T1 Mimics, I T2 Wasteland, StP his Mimic. He plays t2 Ratchet Bomb and kills my Vial. Plays his miser's Waste (!!) so my Recruiter for Magus game is dead. Hook up SFM with SoFI to try to get my own clock, it gets dismembered. Recruit for Mangara (with Karakas in play) instead of Magus. I leave myself open to him having a Reality Smasher - which he did - but Karakas lock was my only way to not lose the race. This matchup is no worse than 50-50 for Imperial but he really had everything exactly when he needed it and nobody is gonna beat Double TKS through Wasteland hands.
R14 Mono Red Painter (0-2) (9-4-1) http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=99302
G1 - Fetch for basic Mountain - ew Burn, really? Okay no, painter, and I have a pretty decent hand vs it, with Vial, Revoker, Mom, Wasteland, some other nonsense. He gets a Servant, Welder out but only has one Mountain in play and appears to be stuck on lands. I have 2 Vials Grindstone targeted with Revoker, a Flickerwisp, and SfM brings in a Jitte. He Red Blasts the Jitte then tries to swap the Jitte in the graveyard wiht my Revoker. I mom protect it, so he does the same thing on his turn. I mentally check out and don't instantly vial in my new Revoker for Grindstone. He double SSG, Grindstone activates. I was trying to play around my second Revoker getting Red Blasted by Vialing in a Thalia EOT turn and I wanted the Revoker to not be open to any other Red Blasts in hand, cause then I'd have no Revokers in play. But he has way more ways to make 2 mana in a turn (4 SSGs, 7 more sol Lands) than remaining Red Blast effects (5). He might have even had another Blast in hand, and it wouldn't have mattered (he didn't remember when we talked after), but it was objectively a mistake, and I mighta thrown the game away. Bring in Path, Relic Warder, some Crusaders I think take out Sofi, Maguses and a Thalia probably shoulda brought in Warping Wails since it looked like he was heavily SBing and taking out his Moons (he did), but wanted to be conservative.
G2 - I have a fairly strong hand with Revoker, Recruiter, some other stuff, he has an early Top and Recruiters for Manic Vandal on T3, which is unfortunate cause he suggests he was sandbagging a Servant. I Relic Warder his Grindstone, tutor for Mangara and will have Mangara lock, have to leave him open for exactly one turn where he needs to have Painter in hand + Red Blast for Relic Warder + mana acceleration. But he has it (double SSG again). I think I played this game well. Painter's not a terrible matchup overall but he had a very good SB for D+T, so I'm not sure I'd even be favored G3.
R15 Lands (2-0) (10-4-1)
G1 - I have a slow opening hand with just Mom, Thalia, Vial he gets a Loam going pretty quickly and starts building a huge board. I do 0 damage to him and have a Vial on 3, just mentally knocking on the top of my deck for Magus. I draw it at most likely the last possible opportunity. He didn't have a Punishing Fire lock going yet. However, he did have Riftstone Portal in the yard plus double Tranquil Thicket, Loam. So he had as much Green mana as he wanted, and could dredge and draw a lot each turn. I see zero Punishing Fires in his graveyard during this period, even after he's probably churned through maybe half his deck. I did see one Molten Vortex (had he drawn that he woulda won.) I have one key decision in the game - is he playing zero Punishing Fires and just playing Molten Vortex (my previous Lands opponent was) - if so I can Recruiter for Revoker for Vortex, and can't lose next turn. Or I can hold the Recruiter + Vial on 3, cast a 4 mana (thanks Thalia...) SoFI with 4/5 of my lands and hook it up for a near lock next turn. His turn, he Dredge+Draws a bunch one last time - eventually has exactly enough mana to Punishing Fire the Magus twice in a row with the two Punishing Fires he has in hand. I Recruiter for Magus EOT, vial it in on my turn, hook up SoFI and it's game. Board as I did for previous Lands games.
G2 - He goes all in on an early combo, I have Path to Exile. I think I had some other ways to not die this time, like Mom + a Flyer? Anyway, he needs to topdeck Loam to do anything relevant, gets eventually, gets a Glacial Chasm loop going while at 7 life, but I Waste the Chasm and attack with a large board. I hadn't noticed, but G1 took so long that we were about to go to time anyway, and there was no way he'd be able to turn that boardstate into a win soon enough.
Nice work Iatee! It seems your theorycrafting paid off, especially with regards to Fireslinger + Path in the sideboard.
Congrats!
Excellent run Iatee, I really dig your list..... its familiar but very different with the heavy lean on taxing/no beaters main. My only question is how much you liked the wingmares, I haven't really liked them much but I may need to give them another go.
They have grown on me. I don't think you can not play at least one, since the ability to fetch up a flyer is so useful. With 3 Wingmares, you have the following hatebears g1:
4 Thalia
3 Wingmare
2 Magus
3 Revoker
3 Recruiter-for-whatever
plus
4 Wasteland
4 Port
At this point 23 / 60 cards in the deck have the capability of messing with their mana g1. So yeah, this is definitely Taxes splash death. With 23 mana denial cards, you're also maximizing the amount of two card combos you'll run into - Thalia already great, gets better when you have a Wingmare as your next card, Magus is already great, gets better when you have a Revoker for DRS/Hierarch/Mox, Recruiter lets you get the second piece for either of those pairings. Your chances of hitting at least one of these combos g1 becomes very high, and they are often game winning.
Wingmare is worse vs Eldrazi than pure beaters, but if Eldrazi gets bigger over time the best solution is just to run 4 Magus in the 75. It's not like people are gonna sell their Underground Seas.
Most of the effects that punish you for being so heavy on x/1s are black, so having 3 sb Mirran Crusaders to swap out for the Wingmares was nice.
Another nuance about this build and running Wingmares - the deck contains way more 3s than Mono-W D+T or R/W running Avengers and you blindly tick Vial to 3 fairly quickly. This actually makes Aether Vial a more powerful card, as playing 3 drops for free turn after turn is more powerful than playing 2 drops for free (especially when one of them is Demonic Tutor). That also makes your non-Vial hands a little weaker, but it's not like Serra Avenger is great in non-Vial hands anyway. Cavern also helps you power out the 3 drops for those fair hands and not get tempo'd out by something like Daze - 3 Caverns kinda serve as Vial insurance here.
So let me ask the obvious question, what would you change? It seems like you weren't so hot on three cannonist... Is there anything else you are wavering on?
I think we have to wait an see how the meta shapes up. I think it was mostly a coincidence that I brought in Ethersworn 0/15 times. It comes in for many of our worst matchups and I dodged them. But Chalice on 1 eats a lot of those decks, so who knows, maybe it will be less relevant in the near future.
The only maindeck change I would be making right now is +1 Plains -1 Plateau.
I would maybe SB something like:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fireslinger
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Rest in Peace
1 Dismember
1 Warping Wail
1 Path to Exile
So vs Eldrazi g2/g3 you'd have:
4 Magus - thanks for playing
3 Mirran Crusader - trade w/ TKS, can't be dismembered, if you can hook up equipment you win
4 STP + PTE - frustratingly goes between being among your best cards to uncastable
1 Dismember - hedge against Chalice
1 Relic-Warder for their Chalice / Needle / etc
This is also very good against Infect and 4 Magus post-board makes things really hard for Lands, which has been growing in popularity. Having 6.5 removal spells post-board helps against all creature decks.
The deck is still soft to Burn, U/R Delver, Jund and a little softer to Elves and Reanimator.
Also, it might be too cute, but this guy is an option vs. Eldrazi:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/c13/20.jpg
Nice outta Vial, wish it killed Goyf.
I thought it might be useful to talk about how DnT started out awful against Zoo but ended up favored by a good bit. It required us to play somewhat unintuitively. You go after Zoo's mana supply even though they seemed to recover when you do. The pauses are enough time to pull ahead before your life runs out. It is possible that Eldrazi can be foughtbthe same way.
Just a thought.
Another speculation is the direction the meta is moving. Every time this happens I try to get the minds together to stay out in front of the change, and it seems time to do this now.
With Eldrazi clearly being a contender, I want to find out who ate the winners and who are the losers with this deck around.
I think Lands beats Eldrazi, so it appears to be on an upswing. Painter also looks like a winner in this environment. What else?
I propose some directional tweaks and changes. I am done messing around with wingmares. Flickerwisps are a definite 4, if they weren't already. Another RIP in the sideboard perhaps. Mangara gains some clout again. My beloved Warping Wails might have to go to the SB. And definitely Ensnaring Bridge in the SB.
Thoughts?
Not that I think this is a really good idea, but if you put a Basilisk Collar on Thalia or Mirran Crusader they can block Eldrazi all day.
If only it cost :2: and was equip :1: but alas not.
These are the interesting questions to ask, as I believe fighting the Eldrazi is doable for us, at least to the point where I think we can enter that MU at more or less 50/50.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Lands get a better spot in the meta, as you mention. Not only do they have a positive MU vs Eldrazi, but, in theory, they also stand to gain from ANT much worse off with a Chalice@1 deck at tier one. I consider it possible that we will get an increase in glass cannon combo. ANT players might revert to TES and stuff like Belcher and Tin Fins could come en vogue.
Should this come to pass maybe we need to roll with some Mindbreak Traps in the board? Possibly 3 RIP vs Lands too?