[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

I played a few hands casually with the stock list (20 lands, 4 Hymns, Dismember, Library) against Death and Taxes yesterday, and even though we were playing casually, and only pre-board I can't help but feel like the match-up is extremely difficult, and I had few really good hatecards in the board.

My board is:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
1 Darkblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Nihil Spellbomb

My friend played the GP Strasbourgh list and it is just full of bombs against us, I have exactly 0 outs to Mirran Crusader maindeck, and only Pernicious Deed kills it from the board, Flickerwisp is great against Delver, and Thalia is as annoying as ever. To top it off, they have Revokers to shut down Deathrite, which both slows down our clock and makes Thalia better.

How do we combat this, aside from boarding out Delvers for Cliques and Plague on Humans? :P

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Originally Posted by Purgatory

I played a few hands casually with the stock list (20 lands, 4 Hymns, Dismember, Library) against Death and Taxes yesterday, and even though we were playing casually, and only pre-board I can't help but feel like the match-up is extremely difficult, and I had few really good hatecards in the board.

My board is:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
2 Submerge
1 Darkblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Nihil Spellbomb

My friend played the GP Strasbourgh list and it is just full of bombs against us, I have exactly 0 outs to Mirran Crusader maindeck, and only Pernicious Deed kills it from the board, Flickerwisp is great against Delver, and Thalia is as annoying as ever. To top it off, they have Revokers to shut down Deathrite, which both slows down our clock and makes Thalia better.

How do we combat this, aside from boarding out Delvers for Cliques and Plague on Humans? :P

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Dread of night might be a good SB option?

In my opinion the meta does not allow you to run dread of night, but it would surely be the best card to hate on fringe decks like Death and Taxes. Plauge beeing more expsive is a real problem against Thalia decks and Dread of night is also better against esperblade (nice effect that it hits Elspeth and jitte does not work on Stoneforge either), but elves, goblins and ETW are also a thing.

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Originally Posted by catmint

In my opinion the meta does not allow you to run dread of night, but it would surely be the best card to hate on fringe decks like Death and Taxes. Plauge beeing more expsive is a real problem against Thalia decks and Dread of night is also better against esperblade (nice effect that it hits Elspeth and jitte does not work on Stoneforge either), but elves, goblins and ETW are also a thing.

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So to summarize, if Tribal decks are more numerous in the metagame, Plague is the better option?

I feel that Goblins at least is a better match-up without Plague than DnT is without Dread of Night.

Have you all forgot about Massacre?

Obviously it's the nuts against D&T, but it has uses in other matchups: Clears the board against Esper blade, just as good vs. Maverick and Bant, and functions practically the same as Damnation against Elves, Goblins, and other Tribal decks.

There are at *least* two slots that can be used for Aggro, and which option is best depends on what you expect to see. Sometimes it's Submerge, often it's Disfigure, but I think now might be a good time to go back to using Massacre.

Edit: And yes, I'm aware of how awkward Massacre is with DRS and Delver. The same could be said of Pernicious Deed though. It's a matter of sequencing. Generally you're not playing Massacre on a board state where you have the upper hand; often it's a comeback play. If you open with Massacre, you may be able to afford a couple turns of having the D&T opponent develop their board, (maybe you have a Goyf wall), at which time you cast Massacre for free and then dump your hand of 1cmc threats. It is tough for D&T to come back at this point, because most of their removal is 1-for-1.

A suggested sideboard:
2 Winter Orb
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Plague
2 Massacre // (Dread of Night)
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
1 *flex slot*

Exactly.

If you check the meta of GP Straßbourg for example:
Storm 9%
Esper Stoneblade 9%
Elves 5%
Maverick 5%
Junk 2%
Death and Taxes ~1% or less I think
Goblins 1%

You board Plague versus all of those decks aka 32% of the meta whereas Dread of night are only boarded against 17% of the meta. Against those 17% (Esper, Maverick, Junk (assuming lingering souls) & Death and taxes) dread of night is better, however you are much more vulerable to the very powerful elves and empty the warrens of Storm.

Now if you think you beat Storm, Maverick and Elves without Plague, but want more edge against the other decks or you are afraid that Death & Taxes becomes very popular (~5%) then Dread of night might be the correct choice, since it is a really bad matchup.

Edit: Massacre
I think you overestimate it wcm8. Killing your own creatures is a BIG factor. The situations where it is not symmetrical are very rare aka this is too situational. Besides that that there are the following disadvantages:

Lingering Souls is a card which is played in multiples and has flashback. Permant hate is necessary.

Elves play a large portion of their games without fetching their single Savannah. Casting it there is too slow.

Thalias is what often comes in mulitples so kill one - yeah my card in hand is live. Also Karakas bounces Thalia. Again you need a permanent solution for all of the current and future mothers and thalias.

Then the same idea applies for substituting 2 Massacre for 2 Dread of Night. Just take my previously suggested sideboard and make the substitution.

I think boarding pretty heavily for White-based aggressive strategies makes sense. They *are* among this deck's most difficult matchups.

If you look back to the original decklist, it played the following sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict

Was Dan just crazy? No. He rightly understood that the maindeck was powerful enough to deal with most other exisiting strategies, and decided he would utilize the sideboard to patch up the deck's glaring weaknesses at the time: Dredge, Burn/Dragon Stompy/(more help vs. Goblins), Countertop/Control, and creatures that weren't affected by Snuff Out.

With the modern configuration of the deck, we have more resiliency against some of those strategies. DRS helps mitigate Burn (as does dropping Sinkhole for Hymn), DRS also helps out against graveyard strategies (but not 100%.. we should still play at least 2 hate cards here). Abrupt Decay fulfills most of the roles that Krosan Grip was playing. Diabolic Edict is still a worthy consideration, but we have Liliana as an alternative now.

But while our modern card choices help patch up some weaknesses, we still have plenty. Under the old approach to playing the deck, one might even suggest playing 3-4 Dread of Night to help flip the tables on matchups our deck struggles against.

I like this thinking. Of course sideobard also has to play along with what you want to take out from the maindeck. So listing the sideboard has more value if you talk about -XYZ +ABC as well.

The problem I see is jund. Dread of night as well as Plague do nothing versus them. Jund is much more popular with 9% and also a difficult matchup. I don't think we can afford to run 4-5 creature hate cards, which do nothing against them.

There are a few factors to consider when building a sideboard:

1. What is your expected metagame? Are you playing in an SCG Open, a Grand Prix, or a local tournament? If you're playing in a larger tournament, you can base it on previous historical deck percentage breakdowns, but if you're playing a local tournament you might have a better gauge on the type of decks you can expect to see. This is the first and most important thing to factor in. For example, if nobody around you plays Dredge, the importance of spending some number of slots on dedicated grave hate goes way down.

2. What choices did you make in the main deck for the flex slots? You might have increased the amount of maindeck removal, meaning you might not need to devote as many slots to aggressive matchups. Or maybe you added in the Sylvan Library, meaning you won't need quite as much to deal with control. Perhaps you opted for the 3rd Tombstalker to help beat RUG and Jund, in which case you might not need as much hate for them in the sideboard. We are only talking about 1-3 cards here, so your sideboard should be adjusted accordingly.

3. Do you want to build a 'well-rounded' sideboard, or do you really want to hate out a particular strategy? 4 Spell Pierce is a great catch-all answer, but if you were expecting a lot of combo you might do a 2/2 split of Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm. Engineered Plague has a lot of applications, but you might be better off running Dread of Night if you want to hate out white creatures more efficiently. This also plays into the idea of 'throwing away' some matchups. If you decide to cut grave hate entirely, you're most likely to going to lose to a deck like Dredge, barring a fair amount of luck in your favor. Decide which matchups you're just going to accept as reasonable losses in order to devote slots to the more worrisome matchups.

Some decks are just going to be nearly impossible to consistently beat without dedicating a ton of sideboard real estate. I think Jund is one such example. Chill combined with Winter Orb might be an effective method of slowing them down (and perhaps more effective than the previous 4 Sinkhole plan), but do you really want to be playing Chill? It's a relatively narrow card. For me, I'd probably just pray to the Mulligan gods that I get a stronger hand and topdecks than theirs, rather than warping my sideboard to fight an uphill battle. Jund's 75 is designed to beat our 60, so our 15 isn't necessarily going to make that significantly better. Keep this idea in mind. If we were capable of constructing 'The Best Deck', we'd have found out by now. The reality of Legacy is that there are too many diverse strategies to deal with, and not enough sideboard slots to beat all of them. The 'Best Sideboard' is going to change from week to week, and even then it's not guaranteed to work if you're unlucky in your pairings.

4. Finally, a possible approach is to just say 'fuck it' and build a Nassif-style sideboard (one constructed entirely of singletons). Plenty of cards have overlapping value, and thanks to the power of Ponder/Brainstorm/Sylvan Library, it's reasonable to expect to see at least one piece of powerful hate in a given matchup. This approach sacrifices consistency for a great deal of flexibility. You'll likely have at least *something* to bring in against you opponent.

As an example:
1 Life from the Loam
1 Winter Orb
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Plague
1 Dread of Night
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Chill
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Diabolic Edict

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Originally Posted by Purgatory

How do we combat this, aside from boarding out Delvers for Cliques and Plague on Humans? :P

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I think you definitely want Delver against them, especially since they stopped running avengers. Bring in Cliques and Plagues, Sylvan Library if you have, even Thoughtseize and additional removal and definitely Winter Orb (very good because Ports and Wastelands fuck us). Take out Goyfs and Shamans- they look silly against their board, plus you can expect them to bring RIP. I think the only way to win this is to land an early delver and protect it from swords and fliers. If they resolve a stoneforge Mystic, go and find you Clique!

I wouldn't go for massacre. Even before DRS we played Nausea over Massacre because it was too bad with Delver. I still see quite some potential in Golgari Charm, but I agree that we'd rather want permanent effects. Obviously, Dread of Night is better against DnT, but Elves is a much too relevant Matchup right now, so Engineered Plague is probably the way to go. Plus it's still pretty good against DnT.

IMO golgari charm is a much better option than dread of night, massace, or engineered plague...

*Plague makes delver and dark confidant awkward and costs three. Not to mention that it doesn't do anything against revoker or flickerwisp.

*dread of night is so specific for DnT (and lingering souls) that they would have to be 20-25% of the expected meta before it would be worth the slots. As such I feel it is too narrow.

*golgari charm costs less than plague, is less awkward with delver and bob, almost as powerful against elves, decent against goblins (especially empty the warrens), and has utility against enchantments like rest in peace, chains, o-ring, Leyline of sanctity, etc not to mention it can regen during supreme verdict.

I have recently gone to two charms and loved them against storm, DnT, lingering souls, miracles, and elves.

As a reminder post board RIP outa DnT makes for an even more difficult matchup post board.

How about Plague Spitter in the sideboard?

Pros:
Hits every 1 toughness creature regardless of creature type.
Is a creature, so cost "only" 3 mana under Thalia.
Is a creature, so is relevant in combat and counts as a threat.
Pings players too, so it has sort of "evasion" like Deathrite, and is immune to RiP.

Cons:
3cc is still very high for this deck.
Creature is much more vulnerable to removal, so the permanent removal ability is less reliable.

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Originally Posted by Hof

How about Plague Spitter in the sideboard?

Cons:
3cc is still very high for this deck.
Creature is much more vulnerable to removal, so the permanent removal ability is less reliable.

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I am afraid you just answered why the card would not be a good option in a deck that prefers to play max 2 mana spells and being easy to remove makes it even worse.
But great to see suggestions. I personally did not even know this card :smile:

Playing a 3 drop (especially creature) is not a "religious" no-go. Vendilion Cliue and Plague also see play.
However compare it to the red version sulfur elemental. Splitter is an interesting card - good to know it - but not good enough.

Hopefully someday they'll print a color-shifted Sulfur Elemental in Black, perhaps one that affected Green creatures.

If you look at recent successful RUG lists, they are running some number of Sulfur Elemental in their sideboards. I think it's reasonable for TA to just suck it up and also run at least 1-2 Dread of Night.

I do like Golgari Charm, but as has been previously pointed out it doesn't provide a static effect. I think you really want to be playing a couple Engineered Plague at the moment.

edit: Also, I have a "secret tech" in the works that I'm going to run for my local legacy FNM this week. I'll report back if it works out, but I'm hesitant to reveal it in case it ends up being embarrassingly bad.

Golgari Charm cought my interest as well since compared to RUG, BUG does overcommit more versus esper and regenerating after a board sweeper can be winning. If its enough to kill 2-4 lingering souls tokesn instead of a permanent effect has to be seen.

Against miracles it can destroy rest in peace.

Surely not as good as plague against elves, but still powerful.

Talking about new sideboard options. I would like to find out if chill is worth a slot. I think only if it has a high impact against RUG. Against Sneak attack and Jund I think chill will be good enough.

Here is the list I finished in 4th place with at Knightware in southern california this past weekend. There were 73 people. This was the first time I played this deck.

Main Deck
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
Creature ( 14)

2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Land ( 20)

3 Liliana of the Veil
Planeswalker ( 3)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
3 Hymn To Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Other ( 23)

qty: 60

Sideboard
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Divert
1 Duress
1 Engineered Plague
1 Flusterstorm
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Krosan Grip
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Sylvan Library
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Sideboard ( 15)

First things first, I loved the maindeck, and hated the sideboard. I just kinda threw the sb together the night before and it had some cards that were good while others just sucked.
Thrun, snapcaster, at least 1 Finks, and probably the divert (I got to divert a hymn once and it was great, but besides that it didn't do anything) should all be taken out. I want to add one obstinate baloth to the board mostly for other bug decks, and the occasional burn deck. The other spots could be anything and if anyone has any good ideas I would love to hear them, also I'm thinking a 2nd E. Plague would probably be a good idea and a Life from the Loam (it crushed me in game 2 of the mirror match).

Now on to why I played the deck; turn 2 Liliana. That was the whole reason why I played this, and every time I landed an early lily turn 2 or 3 the game was pretty much over. Here are the matchups I played against

Round 1: 2-1 Elves
Round 2: 2-0 Maverick
Round 3: 2-1 Sneak and Show
Round 4: 2-0 Death and Taxes
Round 5: 0-2 Mirror
Round 6: 1-2 Sneak and Show
Round 7: 2-0 Esper Blade

(Yeah I squeaked into top 8 on breakers, I was the only person with 15 points to make it, but I guess that's what will happen when you start off 4-0)

Top 8: 2-1 Esper Blade/Miracles (Pretty much Miracles with Stoneforge package)
Top 4: 1-2 Esper Blade

Overall I felt the deck was very good. It probably needs a little more for the sneak and show matchup as all those games were very close (maybe spell pierce) but beyond that I felt my deck had the edge in every match. Any questions or input would be fantastic.

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Originally Posted by edge23235

Here is the list I finished in 4th place with at Knightware in southern california this past weekend. There were 73 people. This was the first time I played this deck.

Main Deck
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
Creature ( 14)

2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Land ( 20)

3 Liliana of the Veil
Planeswalker ( 3)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force Of Will
3 Hymn To Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Other ( 23)

qty: 60

Sideboard
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Divert
1 Duress
1 Engineered Plague
1 Flusterstorm
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Krosan Grip
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Sylvan Library
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Sideboard ( 15)

First things first, I loved the maindeck, and hated the sideboard. I just kinda threw the sb together the night before and it had some cards that were good while others just sucked.
Thrun, snapcaster, at least 1 Finks, and probably the divert (I got to divert a hymn once and it was great, but besides that it didn't do anything) should all be taken out. I want to add one obstinate baloth to the board mostly for other bug decks, and the occasional burn deck. The other spots could be anything and if anyone has any good ideas I would love to hear them, also I'm thinking a 2nd E. Plague would probably be a good idea and a Life from the Loam (it crushed me in game 2 of the mirror match).

Now on to why I played the deck; turn 2 Liliana. That was the whole reason why I played this, and every time I landed an early lily turn 2 or 3 the game was pretty much over. Here are the matchups I played against

Round 1: 2-1 Elves
Round 2: 2-0 Maverick
Round 3: 2-1 Sneak and Show
Round 4: 2-0 Death and Taxes
Round 5: 0-2 Mirror
Round 6: 1-2 Sneak and Show
Round 7: 2-0 Esper Blade

(Yeah I squeaked into top 8 on breakers, I was the only person with 15 points to make it, but I guess that's what will happen when you start off 4-0)

Top 8: 2-1 Esper Blade/Miracles (Pretty much Miracles with Stoneforge package)
Top 4: 1-2 Esper Blade

Overall I felt the deck was very good. It probably needs a little more for the sneak and show matchup as all those games were very close (maybe spell pierce) but beyond that I felt my deck had the edge in every match. Any questions or input would be fantastic.

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How was Lilly main?

Did you miss Tombstalker in those Clique slots?

Otherwise, congrats!

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

How was Lilly main?

Did you miss Tombstalker in those Clique slots?

Otherwise, congrats!

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Lily was fantastic, an early Lily usually meant a very easy win.

I would run V Clique over tombstalker every time. V Clique is very good against combo and also adds 2 more blue cards to the deck for FoW. Also i played against Rest and Peace 3 times in S.B games, and that card is pretty good against tombstalker, while the Clique is unaffected (and I'm sure there are times when a Clique puts the rest and peace on the bottom of the deck).

I was thinking on running 1 main deck Jitte.

Any one tested ?

Also not much action here in the past few days.. I've been waiting on some feedback from the lilly's main decked. :smile: