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Testing some match ups where chalice is at its worst, it's not surprising you don't miss it. Try playing against delver, burn, and combo without it and suddenly I bet it doesn't feel as strong. I would never play this deck without chalice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mono-Green
I've been considering buying into lands (i'd have to dismantle my elf and death and taxes deck..and i'm not 100% sure i'm going to pull the trigger just yet) as it seems like a powerhouse. I have all of the necessary cards to build aggor loam now but have not had a chance to assemble it as of yet because the cards are being used in other decks (death blade). I know lands and aggro loam are different, however; there are some similarities as well. What are some of the positive and negatives of each deck and in your opinion why should someone play aggro loam over lands (other then the price of the deck)? Thanks in advance for everyone input :)!
I don't mean to put this so bluntly, but the truth is that those similarities end at "colors".Quote:
Originally Posted by ryscott85
They are completely different decks, about as comparable as Miracles is to BUG Delver, and rarely if ever play out alike.
I've played both Lands and Aggro Loam, so I feel I can comment on your post fairly reasonably (though, ironically, I actually converted lands to aggro loam, rather than vice versa lol).Quote:
Originally Posted by ryscott85
As Jelly stated above, these two are extremely different decks. Yes, they share some of the same color combination but playstyle and gameplan are very different.
Reasons to play Aggro Loam:
1) Plays Chalice of the Void, which is an amazing card against 75% of the meta
2) Has a MUCH better game against combo
3) More of a creature beatdown, rather than a "combo" kill (I realize you can win via PF and you don't always Marit Lage out a token but 95% of your wins will come from the latter).
Lands is also far more grindy in my opinion, which isn't a good thing for anyone wanting to play in long tournaments with many rounds. Both require a lot of skill to pilot but I found I went to time way more playing lands than I do playing aggro loam. There could be a number of reasons for this (better piloting loam, opponents, random luck and variants per game, etc) but this was my feeling with playing both decks. There's certainly times lands can just win outright between turns 3-5 but most of your gameplan will be the long game, or perhaps I'm a shitty lands pilot, that's entirely possible too. ;)
Which deck is "better" is obviously not an easy answer. They're both excellent against fair decks, though aggro loam has a much better game against Miracles than Lands do from my experience. I also like the combo matchup much better, as I mentioned above, but Lands feels more consistent to me against most of the "fair" field. Not to mention, Lands has a far better matchup against decks like Elves, for example, than what loam does. Honestly, my best advice is to play the style of deck you really enjoy, as they both have their advantages. I have multiple legacy decks built because I'm a little ADD and I need to be able to mix up my game play regularly, but I have literally no regrets at all converting into loam, as I feel this deck is criminally underrated and is far, far better deck than a lot of people think.
Just my 2 cents.
Hey guys, so I finally got to play some real magic yesterday. I also finally found a shardless player to test against. I went like 2-5 maybe worse. In my defense I was pretty mentally exhausted when I got there, and I started testing against shardless something like 3 hours (8+ games) into the session. While I'm convinced that several of those games I was on the ass end of variance in a big way (he drew ~1.7 DRS per game before turn 3, I drew like .5 wastelands per game, 1 good loam the whole day etc) I am clearly doing something wrong and don't have a solid game plan other than "use mana denial, try to outgrind them".
How have y'all been dealing with the matchup? Should I mull towards an LD gameplan, mull towards fast bob/library or something else linear or is the best course of action just playing the grind game with them?
This is my decklist for ppl why don't wanna click the link in my sig:
Lands (28)
2x Bayou
1x Dark Depths
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Karakas
1x Plateau
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Secluded Steppe
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Taiga
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath
Creatures (9)
2x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
Instants (7)
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Dismember
3x Punishing Fire
Sorceries (5)
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
Enchantments (3)
1x Choke
2x Sylvan Library
Artifacts (8)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
Sideboard (15)
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Choke
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Golgari Charm
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Toxic Deluge
Sideboarding notes ahead. Feel free to ignore, I'm just rambling about how I tried to approach the postboard games in the hopes that someone can tell me I'm being an idiot and playing wrong.
At first I sideboarded like this:
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Reclamation Sage
+2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Abrupt Decay
-3 chalice
-1 mox diamond
-1 choke
-1 teeg
-1 Secluded Steppe
I quickly decided that I don't want revoker. They mostly name DRS and I don't think I want temporary answers to those. Otherwise the card is too situational. I should also just be fighting through the 1x jace & lili probably.
Then I cut thalia as she didn't feel that impactful against a deck with a bunch of dudes. I asked my opponent and he said she felt live and beat most of his creatures in combat, but I decided to cut her because she needs to come down early to make an impact.
The first game I won I was getting destroyed until I put a chalice at 0 and 1 and my opponent drew 0 decays and put 3 visions in the yard, so I think that a well-timed chalice @ 0 plan is one of the stronger things I can be doing to not get buried in cards.
@apocolyps6: I think you're simply threat light. Those techy 1-ofs like Dismember and Choke are coming at the expense of KotR and Confidant. I'd personally flip-flop the 3:2 of Zenith and Loam to have Loams actually appear during the game. Last, I'm not a fan of thespian stage-dark depths in this deck. Unless you're somehow making room for it (ie; cutting some utility stuff or altering how the deck functions), they strain a manabase already pushing 4 colors.
For Shardless, you pretty much need to nail DRS immediately or they can color-fix and adjust their gameplans to anything. I don't like Choke because honestly they don't need blue that much. Choke can be countered, discarded it before it's on the table, or Decayed once it's out. The meat and potatoes is your grindy nature to combat them looking for a quick 1-2 punch. Other than TNN (assuming that's in their build), the entire Shardless Deck struggles against pfires engine and an active Scooze. Make those cards a priority to find. To tinker your SB ideas, plan on bringing in +1 Scooze, G.Relentless, and Toxic. I'm not a fan of Thalia against Shardless. The opponent usually flies over her with Delver or past her with TNN/Goyf/Liliana's edicting ability.
For the MD, run 4 decay. The card is almost never bad.
The MD choke was a relic of Omni era. I wanted to test it a bit before removing it for a knight. I've been playing dismember for a long while now and it shines against my worst matchups, so I'm not really incentivized to remove it. Maybe I'll test a 4th decay instead and see how that performs. Likewise stage-depths has been in the deck forever and gives me a lot of wins I would not otherwise have. I am making room for it so as not to strain the manabase, and consequently I do play the deck differently than the stock list, but I don't really want to argue about this kind of stuff.
I definitely agree that my list is weaker against shardless than the stock one tho.
You used grindy and quick in the same sentence, so I'm not sure what you mean to say about our role here.Quote:
The meat and potatoes is your grindy nature to combat them looking for a quick 1-2 punch
Having a second scooze in the board is something I've thought about on and off. It doesn't really feel like a sideboard card (is isn't actual grave hate gor Dredge/Reanimator etc, it isn't a huge threat like Garruk) so I think I'll stick to the one in the main for now. In general if there was some large targeted relic effect... like a Jötun Grunt that was a 'may' ability I would for sure be playing it. Deluge was something I was looking at after the fact as a strong tool. Thanks for the confirmation about that, I'll bring those in next time.
Thanks for the feedback, Warden.
I also heavily agree with this first paragraph. I think of those, the most important is having 4 Bobs, especially in the Shardless matchup. It's just a super grind-fest and you need to do something to deal with the fact that they have a few Recalls they can get into. Outside of that, Liliana is great, as you have much better ways of getting card advantage with discards, due to stuff like Loam. This is also a mathcup where I love Centaur Vinecrasher in (though my sample size is 4 games with that card). I don't like Revoker in general in the SB, its the least important of your hatebears and I'd rather just play the prison/denial game to prevent them from getting a good liliana/Jace online.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
I think the boarding is mostly correct, I bring out Artifacts and Bring in Thalia, Choke (again, you need to still play prison here), Garruk, and sometimes 1 Deluge. Thalia is huge, as it trades favorably with both strix and shardless, plus there's some weird scenarios of how Thalia + DRS + Cascade works with a nonland spell (They can't activate DRS for mana during the Cascade resolution, as it's not a mana ability, so if they intend on tapping 3 to Shardless and keep up a DRS to pay for their Abrupt Decay/Vision/whatever, they can't do that) which most players don't know about. Plus, it's Shardless. I don't typically expect TNN or Delver out of them.
Played the last monthly before the grand finals and top8ed again.
Quick rundown.
R1: 2-0 Rock
R2: 2-1 Tezzerator
R3: 2-1 Elves
R4: 2-1 Death & Taxe
R5: ID
R6: ID
Top8: 1-2 Burn
Lost in a tournament against Burn for the first time this year. Still gave him a sweat and he ended up winning the tournament.
Still happy because he needed to qualify for the finale. 4 Portuguese in the finale of a 22 person Spanish tournament. Feels good.
Will put a couple of interesting plays later at home.
Just a spice on the changes I made.
-1 Library
-1 Moor(played only 2 Cycling)
-1 Heath(played only 2 Fetches
+1 Painful Truths(Sick card)
+1 Depths
+1 Stage
Sideboard
-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Decay
Gratz buddy! Could you post your list? Did not find it the last couple pages...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
Sure,
Main:
1x Badlands
1x Barren Moor
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Tranquil Thicket
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Depths
4x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sylvan Library
1x Painful Truths
Side:
2x Leyline of the Void
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Golgari Charm
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Containment Priest
1x Thoughtseize
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Slaughter Games
The second scrubland should be a second bayou.
Should have cut another land for the stage instead of Heath but not sure which.
1x Badlands
1x Barren Moor
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
2x Tranquil Thicket
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Depths
4x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Sylvan Library
This is my list, some slight changes from Pihas. But I am at 61 cards now. Any advice what to cut? I have been trying to incorporating the depths-stage combo but also don't wanna lose consistency in boarding out the libraries.
I would say to either cur a cycling land(preferred option) or Shaman(Johannes preferred option) or the 4th decay(mixed feelings)Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
@Pilhas: Good list and congratualtions on your top8!
While I like the idea of adding DD/TS , I'm not convinced that removing one of our few Fetchlands is the right way... We also need the utility lands, so there is only the option to cut Duals or another cycle land. Or go down with one of the non-land cards. Perhaps 1 Lilli? She is strong for sure but double Black is sometimes annoying. Sylvan library? I think without blue cantrips the librarys together with the Bobs are essential (ok painfull truth seems to be nice alternative), so not an option in my opinion. Maybe Deathrite but this would weaken the mana base even more. Have you found another solution?
Cutting down to 2 cycling lands does not worry me. now the extra land that we need to cut is the big question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus2110
I can see cutting down the Shaman and playing with 27 lands, but I like shaman a bit too much
@ Pilhas: How strong & important was the DD/TS combo till now?
Is it worth hurting the manabase for it or had you situations where you wished it would have been a fetch?
One thing I missed sometimes with this deck was the ability to end the game or find a good clock when knights were dreged away or got handled etc. So I really like the aggression of the combo and it suits the deck well because of knight & loam but not at the cost of consistency if it's the case.
Opps realized my list was 62 cards. I removed DRS from the list long ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilhas
Pertaining to cycling lands, i know there are a lot of shenanigans one can pull off with it. (like loaming it and using it for an extra draw. Keeping it in your hand to prevent loam from being surgical-ed.) Any other tricks i might have missed?:tongue:
It hurted a bit my manabase because I cut a fetch, but if we cut a utility land of some kind we might get away with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manipulato
The DD/TS combo is really meta dependent IMO. If you are going to play against a bunch of delvers/Miracles you don't need it at all. The matchs where it made a big difference were Elves(improves quite a bit), Burn(Our priority is Chalice+Knight, but we never want to attack with it so fetching combo EOT is great) and those "bigger than you" fair decks(Nicfit and the like).
You also gain the ability of turning a match around, from nowhere you may draw the second part of the combo and win a turn later.
I would play it when you know the meta and for really big tournaments.
I guess it all comes down to a decision between 3 cycling lands and 1 cycling land + DD/TS Combo . Fetchlands, Wastelands, Dryad Arbor, Maze and Karakas are all no alternatives imho.Quote:
Cutting down to 2 cycling lands does not worry me. now the extra land that we need to cut is the big question
One thing we also have to consider is the fact, that we could use Thespian Stage for other things beside the DD Combo: It also functions as a second Maze when needed and can also copy Grove in long grindy MUs or any of our mana producing lands (for the last part a fetchland would be better of course, but while its slow and mana intensive it at least gives the possibility).
In the last tournament, it enabled me to copy the elves guy Bayou to cast deluge when I was dead on board. after that turn just won with the DD. Felt good :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus2110