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The idea still needs a lot of testing and possibly that I come back to the secured mana of Tithe or Ponder, which I played before, but I just wanted to revisit the idea which was previously dropped because of the focus on Counterbalance and Daze which turned out questionable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Interesting to see the direction you went with the deck. Looks like a reasonable extension of Carsten's plan of all Entreats all the time. Other people have already mentioned the things that I had issues with (Cliques, Tax) so I'll just say thanks for posting. Something to try out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Oh! I completely forgot about EField. Now that I think about it though, not sure when I ever would have wanted it. It's another bomb against Thresh I guess, but seems like Blood Moon is more widely applicable right now. I'll have to try the Flusterstorm main. You're really not a fan of Counterbalance, are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
I guess I should give some more detail about the scenario: I'd had RiP and Top in play for a couple turns as well as a fetch. He had 4 cards in hand and I had Force, REB, and an E-Tutor in hand. I decided to go for it, so tapped Top to draw a Brainstorm, cracked the fetch, tutored. He let it resolve pretty quickly, found Helm. He kinda grimaced so I slammed Helm with a Mountain up - I'm pretty sure that I'd been representing REB for a few turns, but it can be hard to tell with Miracles. So that's the scenario. Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure after the game he showed me one Bolt and a land in his hand and flipped the top card and it was a Bolt, so he didn't necessarily know that he had lethal.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
I agree that it's a reasonable play to just Daze and hope that I pay since I'm likely to have some protection considering I shuffled my Top. On my side, if he did that I think I'm locked into Forcing any counterspell, even Daze, because I have to play around double Bolt. If he has a tax + Force + a U card + Bolt and topdeck Bolt then I can't win with my line, but otherwise he doesn't have enough cards for 2 counters and also lethal.
Hmmmmm ... the Land Tax won't make it into the second round of testing ... it's pretty lackluster against decks that operate on a low landcount and compared with Tithe I often had to end a turn without a landdrop running Tax while Tithe would have given me the landdrop. I'll continue with Tithe from here ...
The moment you get Tax + Rack going, you have already control over the game. Chopped it after 8 games
I agree that it's fine on a mull, but I find myself rarely mulliganing with this deck, whatever I'm playing against (unknown or otherwise) so I find that a moot point. If you want to be using Land Tax/Tithe plays early on, you MUST have a Brainstorm and Fetch, or else you are just adding Lands, which isn't getting you anywhere if your opening Spells consist of Tithe and RiP or blind CB and they just make guy into yet more guys. I don't really feel like we need to have "Add some lands" in a deck that plays fifteen cards that see the next three cards in your deck at a bare minimum. I'd rather play either Ponder, or more Fetches to make my Tops and Storms slightly more efficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
As has been mentioned, I don't see why we want to add more stuff to just do for the sake of doing. Against some decks it's really bad and you'll take it out, and against the decks where we have that time - short of the mirror match -we just don't need it. I agree that in the mirror it's probably excellent, but then again Path isn't exactly stellar in those matches, and they will thank you for the Land and probably the shuffle effect if you do happen to hit their Clique etc. I'd rather make yet more angels, and establish one of the various combos. It's not like they're going to be packing Blood Moon in G2.
If you're playing 4 Entreats I'd rather just play more Cantrips and 24 Lands. I think the build I have is very prepared for Entreats, and I may look into finding room for additional ones, but generating lands isn't what I'm after as a part of that. I would love to say "Land Tax is the shit here", as it's totally my card and could've designed it as an invitational, but we just don't need it. I'd rather play Ponders in those slots. Unless you go all in on it end up playing 4 Top, 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 3 CB, 4 Entreat, 4 Terminus, X Land Tax/Tithe, X Rack, and just play to either CounterLock people, or just multiple sweepers/StP's into an Entreat for 4 guys. "You can't win" into "Angels" seems like a decktype all of its own, and I like Land Tax in that strategy, but I feel it's a different plan, and I don't feel like it's better than what we are already doing by just playing some Entreats in an Enchantments-Lock deck.
To be sure, you say you dropped Scroll Rack, Land Tax, or both?
-ABC
Both. Tricks with Tithe and Fetchlands are insaneQuote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Have you guys seen the Italian lists? They don't play Counterbalance but Miracles wins a lot of events overthere.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=85509
We've tested with such lists yesterday and lemme tell you, that you lose against too many crap without balance (like Burn.dec, Zoo, Elves, storm, belcher, etc) because you have no way to create cardadvantage aside Jace and simply are too slowQuote:
Originally Posted by Lans89
Hi guys, I'm new to this deck and I'm gonna try it in a local medium sized tournament on saturday so if you guys could give me your opinion on my list it'd be greatly appreciated.
UNCLE SAM miracles
5 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Arid Mesa
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 detention sphere
1 rest in peace
1 engineered explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
2 enlightned tutor
1 ponder
3 Terminus
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard
3 leyline of sanctity
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 supreme verdict
1 enlightned tutor
1 batterskull
1 pithing needle
1 blood moon
1 ethersworn canonist
1 humility
1 oblivion ring
1 counterbalance
also, how is the match-up against deathblade?
EE, Terminus, Snapcaster, and Crucible (though this inclusion is debatable) are still CA spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Actually I like the idea of blanking opposing Decays by excluding CB.
Tempo is a complex matter, but from my personal standpoint I wouldn't say the inclusion of CB makes up for us being slow, plus it's seems you're missing the fact that those Italian guys upped the amount of cheap counter spells (Pierce & Snare). I could totally see this working especially alongside 3/4 EtAs. Finally two top8s (one of them winning the event) in a nearly 200 player competition is nothing to sneeze at.
I have been a bit unhappy with CBs performance lately anyway, so I'll gladly give this approach a spin and see out it fares. :)
Ive tried out not playing Counterbalance in the main to blank Abrupt Decay, I replaced them with Standstills to try and get some hard CA in the deck. It did not turn out very well, Counterbalance is so good against so many decks that it doesn't warrant trying to blank a few cards out of a couple of decks. Maybe playing more action cards versus Standstill will warrant the exclusion, but I'm not convinced.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
no.., don't. It's hard match-up for sure. However, just watch some of Oarsman's archived videos on his stream, you'll notice a thing or two regarding these match-ups. I'm pretty sure he has CB in there, even in SB games.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
His videos are very valuable. I've learned more watching his streams than any article on SCG/CFB/ETC. Oarsman's choice for double EE is sound in so many match ups, I haven't regretted it since adding more to the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Also, has anyone here tried testing Chandra, Pyromaster in the SB? I've tested a few games with her and I'm pretty happy with the options she gives mid-game, especially with Top in play.
Chandra is my new fourth Jace. Not tested her, but that's one of the best ideas I've heard for this deck.
So...You must have some uses in mind, scenarios where she will be better than Jace and serve relevant purposes. I suppose the +1 does do quite a bit, taking out Cliques, Snappy, Bob, Lavamancer, Y. Pyromancer, and more. The 0 ability looks odd. How exactly is that helpful? I don't really understand. The final ability is...good, but to what capacity in this deck, I am uncertain as your win conditions are nixed as options. What else would you possibly want? Are you going to use a 4cmc planeswalker as a 1-of just for something Punishing Fire typically does better? I mean, granted you have to worry about wasteland. I guess what I'm trying to say in all this is, how is it a better option than JtMS number 4 or Elspeth #1...
-ABC
@ chandra discussion. Her +0 lets you get through those lands that are stuck on top of your deck (with top putting it in the right position). However, jace also does this with scry (albeit without actually getting the land) and it ramps him up to a wincon.
Double red on chandra also seems pretty loose considering most miracle mana bases are just a splash for 2 (wastelandable) volcanics.
I have been enjoying Tithe as a way to not fumble over the land issue, but I can see where you are coming from there. I fully agree with the double-red problem (aetherick), and think that's the main setback of Chandra's playability. I can overlook the fact that Jace doesn't net me the land when I have the option of manipulating my opponents library and draw as well as my own.
-ABC
My Miracles list uses a single mountain (something I picked up from playing Modern) as one of he basic land package, including the 2 Volcanics. While it does feel a bit spotty and Oarsman has pointed this out in his streams a lot (double red being a pain for SB options), it is possible without screwing up the mana base that much. My SB consists of Humility/Blood Moon, so this could be a thing since I have an Enlightened tutor main. Decent option for toolbox SB set ups, could be?
I dunno, the new Chandra seems to do a decent job clearing the board and providing options afterwards, especially after a Terminus.
How is chandra better than Jace after a Terminus? Because IF the opponent drops x/1 creatures? Please...Quote:
Originally Posted by Polish Tamales
I feel that you guys miss the whole Chokepoint about Miracles: Getting 4-5 mana asap to setup Jace, Terminus and Entreat while blanking the tempo counters and manadenial in the meta! Discussing options past the 4-5 mana barrier like Elspeth, Chandra, Helm, Baneslayer is pretty pointless imo. Tithe has been awesome in regards to ensure the first 3-5 landdrops, drop a Jace/cast Brainstorm to setup your Miracles and just win the game
Funny, that never really happens in real games. Just saying. I've watched enough Oarsman streams to know it's never that simple, otherwise he'd be 4-0 every time. I haven't found games to be straight forward and simple like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
As for the Chandra slot, it's more of a SB slot, not the MB slot. Not sure how you would adamantly feel it's competing against a MB Jace slot when I never stated so. I'm just running through the MTGO dailies to see the results of Miracles, and there seems to be a few slots in the SB that gives the deck wider options. I'm pretty happy with my current SB, but I'm just running through other options given how Young Pyromancer could be the next big thing. Here's the SB list I'm using atm:
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
1 Divert
1 Wear//Tear
3 Pyroblast
1 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Terminus (This is the slot currently in discussion, which would be Chandra)
There's an Enlightened Tutor in the MB to fetch the specific hosers from the SB. So, would a slot in the SB against a meta full of x/1s be best with either Izzet Staticaster, Terminus, Pyroclasm, Supreme Verdict, etc.