[DTB] Vial Goblins

After seeing the T8 report from media I got inspired and made this build:

// Lands
5 [ST] Mountain (4)
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [LRW] Auntie's Hovel
4 [B] Badlands
1 [TSP] Gemstone Caverns

// Creatures
3 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [SC] Goblin Warchief
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [MOR] Frogtosser Banneret

// Spells
4 [MOR] Warren Weirding
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 2 [MOR] Earwig Squad
SB: 1 [LRW] Mad Auntie

Weird enough im wondering about piledriver being mogg war marshall since it has more blocking power and gets more pumpable goblins out. Also it works great with cabal therapy.

An article for goblin lovers out there:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...lins_Gone.html

And a question from a deck n00b like me: is warren weirding really better than swords to plowshares? Here in Italy Rw Goblins is still played and puts up some decent finishes.

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Originally Posted by Elfrago

And a question from a deck n00b like me: is warren weirding really better than swords to plowshares? Here in Italy Rw Goblins is still played and puts up some decent finishes.

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I was having this conversation with a french friend just yesterday.
The white splash gives you good (but non-goblin) spot removal, and some disenchant effects.

Fact is, by playing white you weaken your manabase, needing to play 2-3 duals and 8 fetches.
If you're willing to exchange manabase stability for power, you're better just play that route. For just 2-3 duals more you get to play both Black AND Green, allowing you to play the best creature removal in goblins (Weirdings), and the best Disenchant effects (Tin Street Hooligan in the maindeck and Krosan Grip in the SB). This seems to me the best of the possible solutions once you decide that opening your manabases to stifles and wastes is worth the power.

On the fact that in Italy Rw continue to put up results. This is probably the most played version, but it's indeed THAT played just because we, as Italians) are quite slow to adapt to changes and quite conservative. A Rbg version can do better than a Rw one in the long run, but it's still Goblin, and it's going to putting up results.

Thing is, maybe I'm a bit retarted but, I don't get WHY Weirding is better than Swords. Swords is cheaper (and thus faster) and it always hits what you want.
Weirding has indeed more synergy with the rest of the deck but it's power level is surely inferior to StP. And, more often than not, Power > Synergy.
Last but not least, 99% of the time you're going to hit a big dumb monster named Tarmogoyf and Sword is better than Weirding in this task.

Regarding disenchants, you can always play Rwg.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elfrago

Thing is, maybe I'm a bit retarted but, I don't get WHY Weirding is better than Swords. Swords is cheaper (and thus faster) and it always hits what you want.
Weirding has indeed more synergy with the rest of the deck but it's power level is surely inferior to StP. And, more often than not, Power > Synergy.
Last but not least, 99% of the time you're going to hit a big dumb monster named Tarmogoyf and Sword is better than Weirding in this task.

Regarding disenchants, you can always play Rwg.

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If Power > Synergy in tribal decks, why aren't we playing Goyf?

Good things about WW:
- It costs B with warchief in play
- It's tutorable with Matron
- Does not reduce goblin density with Ringleader
- Does not target -> can kill Mongoose

Those are the real deals about it. Swords might be marginally better, but not being tutorable (and crib swap is not a valid alternative) means that you're not going to always have it when you need it.
Often swords and an edict function almost the same way, but this kind of edict has the added benefits of tribal, that in a tribal decks are awesome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

Good things about WW:
- It costs B with warchief in play

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Really? Swords always costs W! :laugh:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

- It's tutorable with Matron

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Agreed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

- Does not reduce goblin density with Ringleader

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Vial screws ringleader too, but is awesome so you play vial anyway. Swords is awesome too.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

- Does not target -> can kill Mongoose

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Sometimes is going to kill Mongoose but often it won't hit what you want.
And today Moongose is often replaced with Noble Yeararch, a guaranteed WW screwer.

I see your points but I'm not sold on this one. Anyway I won't bother you again since I'm not an experienced goblin player and I don't have testings to back up my thoughts.
Anyway, if someone else wants to add it's thoughts on the matter I'd gladly hear them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elfrago

Really? Swords always costs W!

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Players gain life with Swords. Goblins = Aggro deck.

Isn't black (best splash IMHO).

There are no white Goblins.

Can't make you tokens.

Targets, lol shroud.

Can't tutor it.

Why do you want to play swords again?

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Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar

There are no white Goblins.

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Goblin Legionnaire and Boros Recruit want a word with you :D

And Heartfire Hobgoblin and Hobgoblin Dragoon too. But all of 'em are crap. I also think WW is too good to use swords, and with the 3/4 gempalms we can kill all hierarchs and birds the opponent may have

Goblin Legionnaire used to be good pre-m10, sort of a shame.

Anyway, I can entirely see Swords being better in a meta that is full with Aggro and Tribal Decks. I don't know much about the italian scene but if what I hear is true then a Goblins mirror match is not uncommon, in this scenario Weirding is just bad. What about elves? Same deal. Zoo? Rather have STP. Weirding gets worse the more creatures your opponent plays really.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elfrago

Vial screws ringleader too, but is awesome so you play vial anyway. Swords is awesome too.

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If you include every card that is awesome but not a Goblin you're left with a very subpar goblin deck. Maximizing tribal synergies is the thing that sets goblins apart from just being 1/1's and 2/2's. That an exception is made for Vial does not mean that more exceptions can be made if you still want a strong Tribal aspect.

I read the article and it seemed like a concise restatement of things that have been said here ad infinitum. But I think I agree we haven't changed nearly as much as the meta has.

Combo is always going to be rough we as the agro have to accept that. There are things we can do Amethyst Thorn, Pillar, chalice, but we probably have to take that one on the chin.

Control I think is winnable. Its not the roll it used to be, but in testing Chieftain is really helping me.

His point about not being able to out agro zoo, is obviously true. So the question is what can we do about that and the answer is not clear. Zoo runs 16 removal spells. All of them can take out our best answers and threats. So how do we win?

I think Ib, might be worth running. It is non targeted burn. And it hits everything that blocks the goblin. And 4 damage kills everything but a late game Figure of Destiny. It also stops counters from being put on a Jitte. I think Ib is only half the answer though. Making them block is the other problem. I am going to do some testing and see what I come up with. If anyone has already gone down this path, please tell me what you thought.

Edit:

Also I am going to test arena, merely as a way of taping down a creature vs control and mb agro in a pinch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

If Power > Synergy in tribal decks, why aren't we playing Goyf?

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You know, I have the craziest feeling that we haven't done any testing to play Goyfs in Goblins. It sounds crazy, maybe bad on paper. But has this actually been done and tested?

I know Survival Elves play 4 Goyfs simply because it's good by itself and against control decks. Have we even tested this?

Great question GreenOne. This is going to be funny if we haven't tested it and tested it up and it shows better results lol.

I would think Goblins would be largely dependant on the opponent to fill the yard. Outside of Vial and maybe Pyrokinesis/Weirding/StP, what non-creature spells do we run? Fetchlands, sure. But beyond that? How do we reliably fill our own yard for Goyf?

I think goyf could reasonably be a 4/5 in Rx goblins (Creature, Land, Tribal, Sorcery). but only a 2/3 in mono red. Unless we are playing him to counter other decks running him and that would make him at least a 5/6 with the addition of instants.

Well you don't really need to bother with your yard. The deal is goblins had and has problems against Goyf. So by playing your own goyf, you would get the same goyf regardless of yard size. In legacy, you don't need to focus on getting your yard big because the format automatically does so. Goyf is at the very least 2/3, and is usually 3/4. If you're running tribal, you could get it very big. We have sorceries/creatures/lands, your opponents would usually have instants/lands, so goyf is always the standard 4/5.

goyf was tested and dismissed in 2008. Being non-tribal was just bad.

Back to the Weirding vs Swords debate. Nobody mentioned that if you play Wort, Boggart Auntie you can reuse Weirding over and over again, which is just fucking awesome.

It was mentioned many pages back. This was the reason that got me to examine Goblins against after my 3 year haitus.

I think a combination of WW and Incinerator is the right call. WW to pick off lone blockers and Incinerator to pick off specific blockers. I run 3/3 right now, but it can swing to 4 Gempalm/2WW or the other way very easily.

Gempalm doesn't always kill enough shit for me, I love Terminate. I know it's not a Goblin but it's awesome just the same. I run 3 and 3 Weirdings and it works wonders.

Tutorable removal is the most important thing that an aggro deck can have. All of the conditional utilities that you need should be tutorable. If the opponent starts getting blockers, goblins starts to lose immediately. You can't just rely on topdecking for removal. Honestly, it doesn't matter if Warren Weirding costs :1: more than Swords to Plowshares does. You basically lose the game if you can't kill the opponent's creatures when you need to.

The fact that mono-red goblins does reasonably fine with only Incinerator should be proof that adding non-goblin removal doesn't help very much. The traditional reason that white was added in the first place is because of the desire to gain access to disenchant effects. Swords was just added because more removal was favorable but tribal spells weren't available yet.

The only bad thing about Warren Weirding is that it pumps goyf.