I'm not Cairo, but when I played it, he card did absolutely nothing. Better to run a plains or a flagstones of trokairQuote:
Originally Posted by BlkdOutGsxR
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I'm not Cairo, but when I played it, he card did absolutely nothing. Better to run a plains or a flagstones of trokairQuote:
Originally Posted by BlkdOutGsxR
It's there for Punishing Fire. I think the perks and the drawbacks are both pretty marginal. But if you have a lot of P Fire locally it might be worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlkdOutGsxR
Top 8'd a 53 person tourney with a record of 4-1-1, lost to miracles in the top8.
List is stock, basically forgottenforce's but Avengers instead of Mindcensors
R1 - American Delver 2-0
G1: Had too many threats against him, I remember him stifling my Stoneforge, but then he had to bolt it when I played a Wisp on it.
G2: He mulls to 5 and again too many threats to handle.
R2 - DnT Mirror 1-1
G1: First to vial, and first to Jitte
G2: I had him the whole game but his flyers pecked me. He topdecks a third flier after I dealt with 2 during the last 5 turns and promptly die while my 2 moms watched helpless.
R3 - TES 2-1 (I've been stomping storm lately and I don't know why)
G1: Thalia and Flicker do the job.
G2: I tutor for Canonist, and play it. He bounces it on his turn but he just ends while looking at his graveyard. Should've played the RIP I drew but I didn't see the play he could win with PiF (it included Vaporing his own Petal for enough storm).
G3: He therapies for Thalia, but my hand had Canonist and Revoker, which combined with a Flickerwisp is enough to kill him in a couple of turns.
R4 - MUD 2-0
G1: Vial into waste his Tomb really put the hurt as it severely slowed him down.
G2: Pithing on Greaves, Revoker on Ratchet Bomb, his Revoker on Vial, but eventually won as he basically killed himself with 2 tombs at the start.
R5 - RUG 2-1
G1: Vial, Revoker (Snared), Thalia (Dazed), Revoker and another Revoker, got him down to 9 before he killed 1, then I promptly played Stoneforge and he's out of answers.
G2: 2 Vials but only 1 white mana, risked it, lost due to Ancient Grudge.
G3: Won a back and forth game with Batterskull wearing Jitte. He lacked the third land to play his Krosan Grip.
R6: Drew into top8
Top8: Miracles 0-2 (Got terribly beaten)
G1: Venser and Karakas on his side is just downright dirty, with CB protection, as well as Jace. His Venser managed to survive 2 swords when he bounced via MisD and blindflip into Fluster. Being on the draw made a world of difference as he managed to Pierce my Vial. I think I could've won this one if I was on the play.
G2: Mulled my first hand which had no action until turn 3 (Double Mangara and Avenger with only 1 white source), kept a relatively okay 6-er with Mom and Flicker but got totally killed by his Terminus when I had Mom, Thalia and Flicker in play. In hindsight I should've kept the Flicker, I was a little tired and didn't think clearly. He eventually plays a Jace which I ORing, then he plays another (This is where the Flickerwisp would've helped big time.) Too add insult to injury, he even draws into his 1-of Venser again when I topdeck a Revoker after getting his 13th loyalty counter.
I don't know if I'm just unlucky but I lost badly (wasn't even in the game) for the 2nd time against Miracles (but the other time was a long while back - after RtR release). It didn't help that he had great hands both games as well. I hate the UW list as it has a really stable manabase.
I'm 2 for 2 in top 8's for the last 2 tourneys I played in (the other one was a 70+ man) but I lost both times in the quarters. Hopefully, third time's the charm and I finally breakthrough next month.
Keep on taxing!
Congrats mrjumbo03! I know how awful the match against Miracles(UW/UWR) can be in the DnT side, btw the guy topdecking the 1-of Venser both times was the worst part, for sure!
Also, i went 3-1 last Legacy i played with DnT, 2-0 against Doomsday, 2-0 Against UR Delver, 2-0 Against Elves 1-2 Against BW(2 wastelands in my karakas 2 Vindicate in my plains... well, not a funny game for me).
^I know right. How I wish we get something from Theros block that's sorta like Gaddock Teeg. *Crosses fingers*
Sir, you are making me really exited about the spoilers, if we get something close to Teeg or whatever bear that can hurt Miracles, well, that's something i would LOVE to have!Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjumbo03
I just flipped my binder to get myself 3 Karakas, so I decided to build D&T since the deck has always fascinated me. I'm assuming the deck is control first, aggro later?
Very much so. The idea is to just throw so many wrenches into the opponent's machinery that he can't function properly. Damage comes as a side-effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
That's quite a spicy way to put it. I'm even more interested. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
One of the better players at my LGS plays Miracles, and I get paired against him all the time. I'll offer what little I think I know about the matchup. First a little backstory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oreia
As I said, I get paired against him all the time, and he's a good player. I've tried Deadguy Ale, Junkblade, Dark Maverick, and Death & Taxes against him, with D&T turning out to be the best choice by a good-sized margin. It's the deck I choose to play more often than the others as well. At first, I'd lose almost every time. Gradually, my record has improved, and today I feel quite confident of my chances against Miracles. I expect draw or point from him, at this stage. An outright loss would be a surprise.
The three (four) most important interactions in this matchup (pre-board) are the following.
- Thalia, Guardian of Thraben with Karakas behind her.
- Equipment on the board.
- Active Aether Vial.
- Aven Mindcensor.
In addition, it's very good to keep a 'surprise' in reserve that can deal with a 4/4 Angel token and get past it for a few points of damage, such as a Fiend Hunter, or of course Flickerwisp out of an Aether Vial.
The way Miracles (and I'm usually working with the RIP-Helm variant) is going to win the game is either via that combo, Jace ultimate, or Angel tokens. The direst threat is actually the Angel tokens. Jace usually just brainstorms as much as possible until he's dealt with, and the combo depends on several moving parts, all of which are subject to Thalia taxation, being Revokered, and remaining in play through Flickerwisp. It's not impossible to pull off and is a threat to be aware of, but mostly what one has to deal with is Angel tokens. Even three of them is a problem, most of the time, given that one suffers a series of Terminus spells beforehand.
I'd put my tips against Miracles into this list.
- Above all, don't overextend into a Terminus. If at any time Terminus goes down and you don't have another threat, you're lost.
- Most of the time, you should aim Port at white mana. Be mindful of priority in various stages of the game against Top.
- Try hard to avoid having to hardcast Batterskull. The opponent will try to force this so the equipment can be countered.
- Against an active Top with a Vial, fake the tip a few times to absorb an opponent's mana. Once the Vial resolves, if a Revoker comes out there's no more opportunity to do so in response.
- Their manabase is fetchland-heavy, and they may also bring Enlightened Tutor. Aven Mindcensor is a very key player.
This is great, Lormador. I'm going to use it in the primer unless you object.
I have absolutely no objection, other than the caveat that I'm almost certainly not someone who should be regarded as any sort of authority on the subject. Thomas Enevoldsen and Michael Bonde, who declare Miracles to be an "easy" matchup and have the tournament results to back that claim up, doubtless would have a lot more to say about it. I would merely describe the matchup as winnable, perhaps 60-40.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I'd add one more thing to the helpful hints area, and that's to use Port on the enemy draw step rather than the upkeep if there's a Sensei's Divining Top in play that wasn't used during our EOT step. The Miracles player might well wish to Top on upkeep, and a sloppy Port might result in one less mana denied. I've had plenty of games come down to the Miracles player exclaiming, "One more mana and I would have had you!"
I playtested the deck today, and it did exactly what it was supposed to do; turn unfair decks fair, and beat its ass.
Here's my list (for those interested)
Lands:
10 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
Creatures:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Fiend Hunter
Others:
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Absolute Law
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Mirran Crusader
4 ?
My thoughts on the deck?
Mangara+Karakas is a hell of a beating...
T1 Vial, T2 Thalia, T3 Port wins games by itself...
Also, Flickerwisp is pretty much a Timewalk if you want it to be.
Now what I don't like is when I'm caught in topdeck mode, is there any possible library manipulation that could be used in this deck? Or has it been tried already but found not useful?
I've found T2 Thalia, T3 Port to be quite good enough a lot of the time, Aether Vial is just gravy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy
Re: library manipulation, a few things have been tried. What's seen the most play is a singleton Horizon Canopy. I see you're running Eiganjo Castle in that slot, and that's cool, Thomas prefers the Castle while I like the Canopy. Probably he's right.
Another thing I've seen done, but more rarely, is Sensei's Divining Top, either with a set of fetchlands or just some Flagstones. I haven't tried that one myself, but I've seen it pulled off.
Some decks like Sword of Fire and Ice in the main deck. That's a lot of work to draw a card, but drawing a card is really huge with this deck. It's not like we're going to get stuck cantripping into cantrips.
If there are any other feasible engines out there, I'd like to know about them. The various ideas too bad to be worth trying at all are Mentor of the Meek as well as Scrying Sheets.
I think enevoldsen is wrong on that end. Just doesn't make sense why you would want eiganjo? Wayyy too narrow to be any good.
Is there a reason Death and Taxes wouldn't try to support a small Green splash for Teeg? Between Aether Vial, Horizon Canopy, a few White fetches, and a couple Savannahs it shouldn't be hard to manage.
Also, why the trend of running Fiend Hunter over the third Mangara? Without any library manipulation, it seems very random.
Presumably because if you want to be guaranteed to see your Teeg, you need to run three or four (just like Thalia), unless you start running GSZ. Of course, at that point, it makes sense to run some Knights of the Reliquary, a Sylvan Library, perhaps a Dryad Arbor, and a Scavenging Ooze. Basically, Death and Taxes with green is a deck that already has a name. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Maverick is a fine deck, but it has weaknesses that this deck doesn't have, such as being worse against decks with Wasteland and Stifle. In Legacy, it's all about tradeoffs.
The deck's original form actually was GW, so I wouldn't dismiss this variant out of hand. I've considered trying it out myself but always stepped back from the brink. I have a hard time accepting the use of 4 Rishadan Port in a multicolor deck. If I've got 10 lands to work with for colored mana (leaving out Karakas and whatever funky special lands I'm into at the time), and 4 of those are Windswept Heath, at a minimum I'm going to have 4 Plains, 1 Savannah, 1 Forest making up the rest of the base. Most likely I'll want more than one Savannah though, possibly running 4 Savannah, 1 Forest, 1 Plains.
With Blood Moon on the rise, I kind of like just having a good density of basics to lay down.
Re: the Fiend Hunter, I used to wonder what this was for too but it's extremely useful.
- It's a human, for Cavern of Souls.
- It has 3 toughness, safe from a single Punishing Fire.
- It's Swords to Plowshares #5.
- The target can be switched with Flickerwisp.
- Vial + Flickerwisp + Fiend Hunter = two things exiled.
- Takes down tokens like a boss, Marit Lage for instance.
- Takes down Emrakul.
That it's an extra removal spell is very relevant against one of the toughest matchups, Elves.
T1: StP your mana dork
T2: Revoker naming Heritage Druid / Port you / Stoneforge Mystic (or whatever)
T3: Fiend Hunter your Wirewood Symbiote
T4: Cast + Equip Jitte, swing
It's also done very good work for me in those clutch moments against Miracles, when their combat math involves a certain number of Angel tokens and they are trying to avoid those final few points of damage.
I'm not against Fiend Hunter, but I can't see pulling a Mangara out for it. Opponents freak out when they see Mangara hit the battlefield. 3 Mangara and 4 Karakas for me until there is some shift that reduces the power of the combo. I spoke to some people and I know I have read the same thing at some point; complaining that they don't pull off the trick often enough. I am astounded how that have not figured out that it is because they are using 2/3 instead of 3/4.
Mangara is retarded good. His ability is ridiculous when you get to use it, which makes me wanting a 4th Karakas, but only testing will tell.