[Deck] GW/x Maverick

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Are you the player that finished top 4 at the Washington, DC Premier IQ? I had previously played a Vial Maverick list similar to what M@verick was running (with Weathered Wayfarer), but there are a lot of things I like about the Living Wish build (including the Dark Confidants). I'd be interested in exchanging ideas.

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I am not, but that is where I started from. I had been trying to jam Living Wish in legacy for awhile and soon as a I saw that list I loved it.

The main changes I made where the SB in particular and putting the 4 Thalia MD. Thalia is so good that I always want to draw her. With 4 MD we can free up the Living Wish for specific hate - Canonist/Teeg/Revoker for Combo.

This vial/wish build takes the hatebear even further then regular Maverick. Wish/Vial interaction allows for instantaneous hate.

What is everyone's thoughts on Collected Company? This card seems broken and perfect in a Maverick or Bant Blade shell. I'm going to playtest it as a singleton and go from there. If anything, It seems like a great sideboard card against Miracles. But the potential value seems too good to pass up.

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Originally Posted by Gabuts007

Got to the semis last sunday with this list:
4 KotR
4 Thalia
4 Mom
4 StP
4 GSZ
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Teeg
1 Pridemage
1 Scooze
1 SoFI
1 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
2 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas

4 Thoughtseize
3 Zealous Persecution (tired of losing to TNN)
2 Canonist
2 Choke
1 Teeg
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 SolaS

39 players, 6 rds swiss
Miracles 2-0
Both games were the old 1-2 punch of Knight fetching wastelands along with her buddy Thalia. No top deck Terminus :tongue:

Goblin Stompy 0-2
1. He was on the play with a first turn Magus of the Moon. Wasn't able to top deck a basic Plains. GG
2. Went the distance, however removal wasn't enough for his multiple Mogg Catchers tutoring for Kiki Jikki + Murderous Redcap. :frown:

Patriot 2-0
1. Knight got huge fast while decaying his Delvers.
2. Kept a land heavy opening hand because he was on the mana denial plan. He got carried away with stifles and wastelands, so he was left with a single Tundra for the last 5 turns so my Knights did what they do best. :laugh:

SnT 2-1
1. Emrakul from a Sneak Attack seems to be pretty good.
2. He got screwed with his own Blood Moon. Teeg with one Deathrite Shaman did all the 20 damage. Lol
3. Early beats with Thalia and Deathrite's with Mom on standby for Pyroclasm. Eventually top decked his SnT dropping his noodles, me with Knight. Got Karakas on my turn that's all she wrote.

Food Chain Griffins 0-2
1. He did not combo off both games. Got me delayed with his Strixes he played all 4 :laugh:. This went the distance, ended up being out aggroed which felt funny.
2. Early Clique carrying a Jitte against my Moms and dorks was brutal.

Dragon Stompy 2-0
1. He was on the play with a turn 1 Chalice set to 1 and a turn 2 Magus of the Moon, fortunately floating the black for a Decay. That was his only threat for the game so it was time for Knight smash!
2. Another early Blood Moon. My first play was on turn 3 for a GSZ fetching my singleton Pridemage. Knights went to town having a good time after that.

Got to top 7 after swiss.

Affinity 2-1
1. He was on the play with Chalice for 1. By this time I was about ready to puke with all the CotV's I played against that day. Ornitopter with a Cranial Plating loved me long time.
2. A long game with his Etched Champions holding the fort. My Deathrite Shaman did his best Grim Lavamancer impression to even up the match.
3. Two Revokers on Knight and Jitte, an Etched Champion and an Ornitopther. Of course, my favourite Chalice for 1 was giving me cold sweats. Made sure I save my Decays for the Platings. Me with 3 Knights at 5/5. He was down to 6 life from all his Ancient Tomb activation's. Knight put on the pressure. He missed on combat math so he was forced to chump block and was left with his Etched Champion and Da Vinci's invention. KNIGHT SMASH!!!:laugh:

Infect
He was a teammate so we decided to have him play for the finals against SnT for a more favorable match up. He eventually won and we split our prizes. :tongue:

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Good job! Was this the GPT in Manila? What's with all the Stompy/Chalice decks over there these days? :laugh:

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Originally Posted by DudeItsCorey

What is everyone's thoughts on Collected Company? This card seems broken and perfect in a Maverick or Bant Blade shell. I'm going to playtest it as a singleton and go from there. If anything, It seems like a great sideboard card against Miracles. But the potential value seems too good to pass up.

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I wouldn't be too sad to go down in GSZ count in order to run this card to some degree. As you said, the value is absolutely insane. Absolute worst case scenario in terms of value is that you get a instant Mom and Deathrite Shaman at 3G. Oh no.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

I wouldn't be too sad to go down in GSZ count in order to run this card to some degree. As you said, the value is absolutely insane. Absolute worst case scenario in terms of value is that you get a instant Mom and Deathrite Shaman at 3G. Oh no.

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This is exactly what I thought too. Just the fact that even our low cost creatures are already crazy good, the prospect of getting 2 of them at instant speed is incredible value on board. And in magical christmas land, we have sylvan library on board to try to set up something. I like it a lot, and I think a 1-of in the maindeck seems good. Does it replace a green sun? i don't know. But I definitely want a copy of that card somewhere in my 75.

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Originally Posted by ThediscoPower

This is exactly what I thought too. Just the fact that even our low cost creatures are already crazy good, the prospect of getting 2 of them at instant speed is incredible value on board. And in magical christmas land, we have sylvan library on board to try to set up something. I like it a lot, and I think a 1-of in the maindeck seems good. Does it replace a green sun? i don't know. But I definitely want a copy of that card somewhere in my 75.

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I'm not sold on it yet. 4 mana is a lot for a Thalia deck, and GSZ is frequently cast much earlier than 4 mana in order to establish a board presence. It also snags a silver bullet, rather than fiddling around with the top 10% of the deck and giving you whatever you find.

I think it's a strong card, but it doesn't feel like it belongs in this archetype.

I am going to try Collected Company as a 1 of but I don't know if it makes the cut. I definitely don't think it replaces GSZ just because of how versatile it is.

My main gripes with it, is that it costs 5 mana with Thalia and at 4 mana we could be playing Garruk or Elspeth which can be great value engines if they stick and take over games. It also is a non-bo with teeg.

I think CC definitely has potential. I think the benefit here is how explosive it can be. Maverick to me is a deck that wants to build board states and get far enough ahead that the opponent can't deal with us. CC seems to be proactive in that plan (imagine EOT hitting a knight + any other creature it would be pretty nuts).

I really think it could be good at getting ahead, where planeswalkers will be slower.

I hope it ends up being viable, but who knows

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Originally Posted by .Ix

Good job! Was this the GPT in Manila? What's with all the Stompy/Chalice decks over there these days? :laugh:

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Yeah it was. No idea, maybe it was bring your CoTV to work day. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Cambriel

I'm not sold on it yet. 4 mana is a lot for a Thalia deck, and GSZ is frequently cast much earlier than 4 mana in order to establish a board presence. It also snags a silver bullet, rather than fiddling around with the top 10% of the deck and giving you whatever you find.

I think it's a strong card, but it doesn't feel like it belongs in this archetype.

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With our mana dorks, 4 mana isn't all that much. I am constantly GSZ for 3 (cmc 4) for Knight and how would this be any different? I don't think that we eliminate GSZ from the list. I think we run it alongside each other. I plan on running 3 GSZ and 2 Collected Company and tweak from there. Maybe it's bad, but the potential seems too good to overlook.

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

I am going to try Collected Company as a 1 of but I don't know if it makes the cut. I definitely don't think it replaces GSZ just because of how versatile it is.

My main gripes with it, is that it costs 5 mana with Thalia and at 4 mana we could be playing Garruk or Elspeth which can be great value engines if they stick and take over games. It also is a non-bo with teeg.

I think CC definitely has potential. I think the benefit here is how explosive it can be. Maverick to me is a deck that wants to build board states and get far enough ahead that the opponent can't deal with us. CC seems to be proactive in that plan (imagine EOT hitting a knight + any other creature it would be pretty nuts).

I really think it could be good at getting ahead, where planeswalkers will be slower.

I hope it ends up being viable, but who knows

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I disagree. I believe our deck excels when both players are in top deck mode. Our draws/threats are usually always stronger.

That's a fair point and I can't argue with that. On the subject of top deck mode, CC seems like it would be good in getting quite a bit of gas.

I have had it happen in enough games where although, a narrow situation I think it can be common enough to see CC benefits against liliana. It can be pretty tough fighting lilli in top deck mode sometimes because if you play a threat they make you sacrifice it and if you dont thythey can make you discard. CC would be pretty sweet in response to a lilli's +1. But so would a planeswalker and those haven't being see much play.

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

That's a fair point and I can't argue with that. On the subject of top deck mode, CC seems like it would be good in getting quite a bit of gas.

I have had it happen in enough games where although, a narrow situation I think it can be common enough to see CC benefits against liliana. It can be pretty tough fighting lilli in top deck mode sometimes because if you play a threat they make you sacrifice it and if you dont thythey can make you discard. CC would be pretty sweet in response to a lilli's +1. But so would a planeswalker and those haven't being see much play.

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A great way to help keep threats on board against lily is to keep a green fetch back. That way when your opponent -2, you in response fetch for Dryad Arbor. Although, it doesn't always work out that way, it is a helpful tool to have.

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

But so would a planeswalker and those haven't being see much play.

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Difference being that planeswalkers themselves are situational while Collected Company only makes use of tools that you have deemed worthy of your deck.

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Originally Posted by DudeItsCorey

With our mana dorks, 4 mana isn't all that much. I am constantly GSZ for 3 (cmc 4) for Knight and how would this be any different? I don't think that we eliminate GSZ from the list. I think we run it alongside each other. I plan on running 3 GSZ and 2 Collected Company and tweak from there. Maybe it's bad, but the potential seems too good to overlook.

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I respectfully disagree. I am in the camp that emphasizes "GSZ is flexible and lets you search for bullets". IMHO, the point of GSZ in the deck is that it's a glue to magically insert [situational green creature you need]. On top of that, GSZ is usually just cycled back into the deck so I can eventually cast it again.

Collected Company is a different animal. It's more like Fact or Fiction for green. Ultimately, FoF is perceived as cumbersome. The hivemind that is TheSource may reach similar conclusions. "Look at the top 6 of your library and pick 2 creatures that meet a specified criteria" is nothing to scoff at. However, the effect is along the lines of "I want to draw raw cards". This is a different drawing dynamic than GSZ. The times I GSZ, I tutor for crap like Arbor, Teeg, QPM, Scooze (utility folk) buried in my library. Such tutoring usually wins me the game, as I have specific answers for specific board-states and/or decks. We'll have to think about restructuring the deck to work with "I want to draw raw cards". It can work with Confidant. It can work with Sylvan Library. However, those cards are not spells with a 1-time effect for 3G.

I also want to clarify that I'm not opposed to the card overall. It's damn powerful. I'm guess I'm getting at how we should stop and think about how the card works. Let's not rush to "yeah, this is replacing GSZ". That would be a mistake. Instead, I would alter Maverick's composition ensure I cna hit 3G more often. The "issue" with hitting 4 mana spells is with how Maverick inherently wins (large % due to wasteland-thalia). Similarly, what the hell do we cut? In terms of replacing flex slots, we're probably stepping on the toes of SFM, equipment, 1-2 bears, and sylvan library. I wouldn't "shave down" the number of valuable creatures I ran because I'd want to reveal them with Collected Company. We'll have to construct lists that cater to this card.

Last, I want to raise an interesting note about my own successes using Natural Order. For argument's sake, the concept of needing to play a 4cc "spell" is similar. I didn't cut GSZ to make room for NO; I ran both. However, I ran NO in the SB --- usually at the expense of Thalia. If I dropped Thalia from the main, it would be in favor of something big. Like MD natural order big. I am not sure Thalia + Collected Company cause too many headaches. On paper it seems the deck would be running competing strategies if you shoehorn in Company.

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Originally Posted by Warden

I respectfully disagree. I am in the camp that emphasizes "GSZ is flexible and lets you search for bullets". IMHO, the point of GSZ in the deck is that it's a glue to magically insert [situational green creature you need]. On top of that, GSZ is usually just cycled back into the deck so I can eventually cast it again.

Collected Company is a different animal. It's more like Fact or Fiction for green. Ultimately, FoF is perceived as cumbersome. The hivemind that is TheSource may reach similar conclusions. "Look at the top 6 of your library and pick 2 creatures that meet a specified criteria" is nothing to scoff at. However, the effect is along the lines of "I want to draw raw cards". This is a different drawing dynamic than GSZ. The times I GSZ, I tutor for crap like Arbor, Teeg, QPM, Scooze (utility folk) buried in my library. Such tutoring usually wins me the game, as I have specific answers for specific board-states and/or decks. We'll have to think about restructuring the deck to work with "I want to draw raw cards". It can work with Confidant. It can work with Sylvan Library. However, those cards are not spells with a 1-time effect for 3G.

I also want to clarify that I'm not opposed to the card overall. It's damn powerful. I'm guess I'm getting at how we should stop and think about how the card works. Let's not rush to "yeah, this is replacing GSZ". That would be a mistake. Instead, I would alter Maverick's composition ensure I cna hit 3G more often. The "issue" with hitting 4 mana spells is with how Maverick inherently wins (large % due to wasteland-thalia). Similarly, what the hell do we cut? In terms of replacing flex slots, we're probably stepping on the toes of SFM, equipment, 1-2 bears, and sylvan library. I wouldn't "shave down" the number of valuable creatures I ran because I'd want to reveal them with Collected Company. We'll have to construct lists that cater to this card.

Last, I want to raise an interesting note about my own successes using Natural Order. For argument's sake, the concept of needing to play a 4cc "spell" is similar. I didn't cut GSZ to make room for NO; I ran both. However, I ran NO in the SB --- usually at the expense of Thalia. If I dropped Thalia from the main, it would be in favor of something big. Like MD natural order big. I am not sure Thalia + Collected Company cause too many headaches. On paper it seems the deck would be running competing strategies if you shoehorn in Company.

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Warden I think you're reading the card wrong. it's an instant speed - look at the top 6 cards of your library and select up to two creatures with cmc 3 or less and put them onto the Battlefield. It serves a different purpose than GSZ as it's more of a game ender than a silver bullet finder, your right. I'm restructuring the deck to go down on 1 GSZ and moving Sigarda to the sideboard. Also, I'm debating on whether to put in Bobs over Library. Lastly, I'm going down to two Abrupt decays from three to put in a second Qasali mainboard.

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Originally Posted by DudeItsCorey

Warden I think you're reading the card wrong. it's an instant speed - look at the top 6 cards of your library and select up to two creatures with cmc 3 or less and put them onto the Battlefield. It serves a different purpose than GSZ as it's more of a game ender than a silver bullet finder, your right. I'm restructuring the deck to go down on 1 GSZ and moving Sigarda to the sideboard. Also, I'm debating on whether to put in Bobs over Library. Lastly, I'm going down to two Abrupt decays from three to put in a second Qasali mainboard.

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Picture: http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...1265307832.png

I am aware it's instant speed, which made me compare it to FoF in terms of raw card draw. However, the points I brought up remain. I think the deck would have to be restructured in a way that caters to this card. I am not sure what that maindeck would resemble. I view its role as a jack-of-all-trades rather than a finisher/game ender. At least we are on the same page comparing its role vs GSZ.

Here is my 60 any given day (Herzog model):
//23 Lands
22 Whatever
1 Dryad Arbor

//22 Core Creatures
5 Mana Dorks (Deathrite Shaman, Noble Hierarch)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Utility bears (Scavenging Ooze, Qasali Pridemage, Scryb)
1 Gaddock Teeg

//5 Flex
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of ___ & ___ (usually Light and Shadow)

//10 Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library

What do I shift around? I could see perhaps -1 thalia, -1 library and/or -1 equipment for certain metas. Some recent winning lists already do this in favor of MD decays and a big finisher like Sigarda. An interesting concept would be run some amount of Collected Company + Eternal Witness.

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Originally Posted by Cambriel

I'm not sold on it yet. 4 mana is a lot for a Thalia deck, and GSZ is frequently cast much earlier than 4 mana in order to establish a board presence. It also snags a silver bullet, rather than fiddling around with the top 10% of the deck and giving you whatever you find.

I think it's a strong card, but it doesn't feel like it belongs in this archetype.

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well, we are already casting green sun's at variable costs, including 4 (knight, courser), 5 (sometimes, thrun, but i don't run him) 6 (sigarda). it's not impossible to reach 4 mana here, nor is it out of the ordinary.

However, where I do agree is that we do have to compare it against plainswalkers, and see how it stacks up in their spots. And this is where I might be biased (or too hyped), but I think I like this card more than them. I tried to make them work (Sorin LoI, Elspeth, Garruck relentless, but they always came short for me, somehow. Elspeth was actually the better one out of the 3, but sometimes, I felt that even then, she (and the others) just didn't fit in my strategy (never casted them, or casted them but they could have been anything else, it would not have mattered), or felt too situational. In the end, I ended up just cutting all my plainswalkers.

What plays for Collected Company is, IMO, the fact that it's an instant (i think a sorcery version of this card is probably unplayable), and the fact that it puts creatures directly in play, and not in hand. As such, I don't think it can be compared to fact or fiction, the card advantage it provides is completely different (and more powerful in a sense, because it devellops the board with the creatures you found ''for free'', when it doesn't fail. This isn't a draw 2 cards effect). It also can't be compared to green sun, this isn't a flexible tutor (and why I think you can't replace a green sun with this card). This is just a way to throw cards into play, at instant speed, but for a deck built around it. As it happens, we are probably already build for that (or the closest), with what? 25 creatures usually? 0-1 of them over 3 cmc? i think the opportunity is too good to pass, IMO, as a one of. You probably want to see it once in the game as a value card.

Warden has hit all of the salient points for why I think this is the wrong shell for Collected Company. Hell, there might end up being a legacy deck out there that runs it... even runs it in junk colors. I just don't think it fits the strategy of Maverick. That potential shell in the future might even end up *better*, but it will be something fundamentally different.

Maverick is about choosing the one, right tool for the job. Grabbing two instant speed Knights sounds pretty sweet, but it isn't going to happen that often. We're not after raw card advantage. If I *have* to pay 4 mana, I'd rather pay it for 1 guaranteed Knight (or a NO > Progenitus) than the chance at two. The variance is too high.

so do you guys think that there is a list where Collected Company and GSZ could co exist? Maybe 4 GSZ and 1 CC? or like others have mentioned do they both just cater to too much of different strategies that you have to build around one.

I think that you could possibly get away with 4 GSZ and 1 CC in the 75 but I also see the arguement of why CC isn't what we want.

If we were to try and make a list that catered to CC what would we change or where would we start? (I realize that mkaing certain changes could get us away from the heart of what maverick really is/wants to do)

The prospect of putting in two value creatures into play at instant speed is too much fun to not try/test

I think it would be fun to talk and think about even though I don't think anything too serious will come from it

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

so do you guys think that there is a list where Collected Company and GSZ could co exist? Maybe 4 GSZ and 1 CC? or like others have mentioned do they both just cater to too much of different strategies that you have to build around one.

I think that you could possibly get away with 4 GSZ and 1 CC in the 75 but I also see the arguement of why CC isn't what we want.

If we were to try and make a list that catered to CC what would we change or where would we start? (I realize that mkaing certain changes could get us away from the heart of what maverick really is/wants to do)

The prospect of putting in two value creatures into play at instant speed is too much fun to not try/test

I think it would be fun to talk and think about even though I don't think anything too serious will come from it

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I think that we have to wait for the card to be in circulation before we really know. I think that Bant Blade may be another deck that could utilize the card, but would definitely have to be restructured to be more Creature heavy with counterspell backup for combo. Having access to the likes of Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf, Stoneforge, TNN, maybe the best shell for it. Death and Taxes could possible run it if it wants to start splashing green (which would then gain access to Teeg). The reason I feel this deck would be a great placement is because it's already very creature heavy. For Maverick you definitely don't replace the Green Sun Zenith (Maybe go down to 3), but you could restructure the deck to play Bobs instead of Library, more Qasali if you're mainboarding Abrupt Decay, etc. Again the value is too much to not at least attempt.

Right now what I'm thinking is...

1) You have to have some way to make use of its instant speed. Yes, being an instant is inherently more useful than being a sorcery, but if you end your turn with three cards in hand and four mana open, it's pretty telling what you're planning on doing. Punishing Maverick? Flash creatures? Some way to make its instant status feel natural.

2) It's mana heavy. I have an unorthodox idea that I'm going to keep to myself for now just so that the thread doesn't get cluttered by people spouting bullshittery.

Maybe this card doesn't have universal applicability in every MU, but I think it addresses a major problem Maverick has against Miracles. Normally we have to walk that awkward line between committing too much and getting blown out by a terminus OR sandbagging a bunch of dudes and just having them all get plowed one at a time until they slap us with entreat or Jace. Now we have the option to EoT this, and even if a terminus wipes our board we're trading one for one. This also applies to shardless, we can now afford to force their toxic deluge without losing too much.

Just my 2 cents..

Is the card good? Damn right, it is! Is it better than GSZ? Maybe, maybe not.

Do you need to tutor your 1-of and 2-of cards on the fly? (Eg: scryb, scooze, qasali, teeg, etc.) if your answer is yes or sometimes, then GSZ is better. If your answer is never, then cc is better.

If your deck is like zoo: 4-of every fatty, then CC is better.

Vs miracles: GSZ has the flexibility to dodge cb lock.
Vs combo: Turn 2 teeg off a GSZ is simply better.

Looking at longterm.. Did you see the new Liliana in mtg origins expansion? How'd you feel about fetching a planeswalker? :)

How I am kind of viewing CC (and if anyone disagrees or thinks different then I am keen to hear, because I feel like I can always learn from others and thats how I can improve) is that mid-late game instead of drawing 1 creature off the top off our deck, why not draw what can give us 2 creatures at instant speed?

That's why I think we could run it as a 1 of because T1-T3 we want to be setting up our board, casting GSZ to tutor whichever creature we're looking for, but then CC could be a nice top deck/late game gas that lets us keep up with the pace of games.

IMO it serves a totally different purpose then GSZ. When I draw GSZ it's like drawing any green creature in my deck and I want to get whatever will be the biggest pain in the butt and most disruptive for the other person.

This silver bullet/tool box function is key to Maverick and is why this deck can have success (I realize that this is all obvious stuff, and things we already know).

However I don't think having GSZ and the toolbox mechanic makes us turn down such raw card advantage that I feel like already fits our shell. If I had the choice I rather drop 2 creatures off the top of my deck then 1.

In my own deck I have a flew flex spots and already have more than enough 3 cmc or below creatures to make it an easy inclusion.

Some people have made really good points against the card and we will probably just have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

How I am kind of viewing CC (and if anyone disagrees or thinks different then I am keen to hear, because I feel like I can always learn from others and thats how I can improve) is that mid-late game instead of drawing 1 creature off the top off our deck, why not draw what can give us 2 creatures at instant speed?

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What you're describing is basically why we run Sylvan Library. It lets you keep pace with the attrition decks and the cantrip decks.

Collected Company needs to win when you cast it. It needs to push you so far ahead, or lock the opponent out so strongly, that resolving it is a do-or-die moment. Otherwise, there is simply no reason to cast a 4 cmc instant in this format. We don't play the kind of creatures that allow for Collected Company to combo off or win out of nowhere. BEST case scenario is make 2 Knights, untap, double Wasteland. That's strong, but it's not an auto-win, and it's also not an especially likely draw. What happens when the best you get is a Mom and a DRS?

The silver bullet nature of our deck already gives us some pretty sketchy opening 7s. I really don't want one more card clogging up my opening hand. I hope someone tries it, but I'm going to take a wait and see approach. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it.

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Originally Posted by Cambriel

BEST case scenario is make 2 Knights, untap, double Wasteland. That's strong, but it's not an auto-win

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Isn't it? A single Knight of the Reliquary untapping is the beginning of the end more often than not. I can't imagine the damage that two off the top could do.

Or Knight and Stoneforge Mystic. Or Knight and Deathrite Shaman. Or Stoneforge and Deathrite. Hell, I mentioned earlier that snagging even a Mother of Runes and Deathrite Shaman wouldn't be too bad of a play, and I stand by that.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

Isn't it? A single Knight of the Reliquary untapping is the beginning of the end more often than not. I can't imagine the damage that two off the top could do. Or Knight and Stoneforge Mystic. Or Knight and Deathrite Shaman. Or Stoneforge and Deathrite. Hell, I mentioned earlier that snagging even a Mother of Runes and Deathrite Shaman wouldn't be too bad of a play, and I stand by that.

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You are right. Card is straight-up insane. It's a double GSZ, a small Glimpse, and a Dig Through Time all in one.

I mean, people are valid in saying that it's 4cc. Because, well, it is. But I don't understand why that's so oppressive. It's not like the end goal isn't already to spend four mana digging up a Knight with Green Sun's Zenith. Or spend four mana casting and strapping an Umezawa's Jitte. Or spending five mana casting and strapping a Swords or dropping a Batterskull.

It's a calculated choice of do you want Collected Company to be the trump card in your deck. And so far, for me, I say yes.

Right now I'm working on Punishing Maverick. It changes the dynamics of the deck pretty significantly, so I haven't pinned down anything I'm comfortable with, but it has proven to be nothing but a champ. Anyone who wants to see sample reveals, load up The Cock.de, play a goldfish till you get to four mana, and then just repeatedly press ctrl+w (=6) and ctrl+s. There are moments when you semi-wiff and only hit one creature, so you do have to keep a fairly large creature count, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

From what I've read on here I think most people's gripe is the variance. Because all the swords/batterskull should end the game. Casting the GSZ for knight you know for sure if it resolves you will have a knight on board.

But with CC you have that variance where maybe you only hit one Thalia, or a mom and DRS which although good isn't game ending and is quite a bit for 4 mana.

That said though and maybe I am getting too into perfect x-mas land/or only thinking of upsides and not the bigger picture, but I feel in a late game setting if I am low on cards in hand and I have 4 mana I rather draw the 4cmc spell where I am using all my mana and have the potential to get 2 value creatures instead of just drawing and playing a mom late game for 1 mana.

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

From what I've read on here I think most people's gripe is the variance. Because all the swords/batterskull should end the game. Casting the GSZ for knight you know for sure if it resolves you will have a knight on board.

But with CC you have that variance where maybe you only hit one Thalia, or a mom and DRS which although good isn't game ending and is quite a bit for 4 mana.

That said though and maybe I am getting too into perfect x-mas land/or only thinking of upsides and not the bigger picture, but I feel in a late game setting if I am low on cards in hand and I have 4 mana I rather draw the 4cmc spell where I am using all my mana and have the potential to get 2 value creatures instead of just drawing and playing a mom late game for 1 mana.

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Not to be snarky at all, but if I were to jam a 4cc green spell alongside GSZ, I might as well go for broke with maindeck Natural Order (assuming I can cast it). I'm thinking I'd prefer cheating Ruric Thar / Progenitus / big stupid thing than an uncertain chance off the top. CC's christmas land is really nice. But you can't think pure-upside. CC will see legacy play. A deck needs to mold around it. It may find a home in Maverick, but no doubt you'd have to shake up lists since it's cramming competing strategies together (never a good thing....look at bant.dec for the past 3 years).

I would actually want it much more in something like Nic-Fit where getting to 4, 5 or even 6 mana is rarely a problem. Toss it in with Veteran Explorer, Baleful Strix, Cabal Therapy and Recurring Nightmare. Even there, the deck structure wants giant monsters to hard cast later on, so finding 3cmc dudes might be tough. It's a very strong card that may just require a new archetype, or a twist no one has seen yet.

Just my two cents, but I think Collected Company could be a great 2-3 of sideboard for a fair number of Legacy match-ups. I'm talking mainly about other creature deck match-ups, e.g., Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, Delver, Shardless BUG, Jund, Mirrors. I say this because these decks are less affected by the Thalias, (save maybe Delver and Shardless), and more disrupted by being overwhelmed with creatures. In these match-ups I would want more spot removal like Paths or Abrupt Decays and access to instant creature advantage to stuff my opponent. The Thalia approach is utilized main deck for combo, control and most decks with blue. But even Miracles, since its a slower match-up, I could see both Thalias and Collected Companies playing a role. This card is definitely worth playtesting to evaluate its potential as a killer sideboard card for many Legacy matches IMHO.

I started from Maverick shell now test deck looks like this:

Noncreature spells(10):

4 Collected Company
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Green Sun's Zenith

//creatures(30):
3 Eternal Witness
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Mentor of the Meek
1 Priest of Urabrask
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Kessig Malcontents
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Mother of Runes
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Village Bell-Ringer
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Deathrite Shaman

//Lands(20):
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
3 Gaea's Cradle
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
//SB:
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Choke


Few explenations: this deck remind be old MOST construction.
Main CA engine is CC and E.Witness, second CA engine is Mentor of the Meek - its really works very well as Glimpse on the Stick.

Deck contain many syngergies and combos:
Instant kill combo - Kiki - Bell, both can be searched by Imperial Recruiter it kills by combat, but with any mana dork it can easy kill directly via Kessig Malcontent (works fine also as reach finisher, or plainwalker killer, Pries of Urabrask is interesting choose (mostly mana fixer, also nice with equipment).
There are also most GSZ targets - Ooze, Kotr, Pridemages. Deck is also focused on Human Theme (uncounterable, recuiter/witness bring enough CA vs controls).

What is missing (since its still 60 card deck) - I actually moved to sb direct removal - StP, in most games I could cump enough long to get advantage(similar to goblin strategy but you have more silverbullets under GSZ and Recruiter) - sure you can always use equips as removal. Imperial Recruiter is probably one of the most important card in this deck - similar to Goblin Matron.

Deck is very focused on creatures (30) this mean we have very big chance to find 2 creatures in 6 cards. Deck runs only 21 lands (counting 3 cradles and dryad) this mean initial mana are only 17 lands - similar to some RUG lists, this mean its very important to search mana dorks on start, After you cast first CC it will be mostly game.

Configuration of toolboxed creature is very dependent on your meta:
more creatures to use:
Singscourger (works great vs S&T) - I like it more then creature exile effect since its more permanent
Phyrexian Revoker - still thinking to fit it in MB
Goblin Sharpshooter - this creature can be house
if you afraid -1/-1 effects - Mayor of Avabruck

As SB card against tempo decks you can easy use Meekstone, almost all your creatures can easy working under it (maybe without KotR).

Probably this deck could also works with Vials/Wayfarer build. Not sure does it also fit thalia - but with active cradle its mostly easy to cast in one turn CC + stuff searched.

17 actual lands sounds way too greedy. I would definitely up the number of lands while cutting some of the rather "cute" utility.

I have some questions regarding Thoughtseize in the SB and I'm curious how you apporach the different matchups.

I'm testing with Maverick a lot lately but I'm sticking more to permanent hate (for combo, miracles, ...) like more Teegs, Canonists, Containment Priests etc. instead of some Thoughtseize (4 would be the number) because it feels strong to create soft-locks that can be protected (with Mother of Runes). I do know that hate should also be diversified to put pressure on the opponents anti-hate and Thoughtseize is a really powerful card. I just wonder in which matchups do you guys board in the Thoughtseizes and how your general gameplan is with Thoughtseize in mind.

At the moment I'm playing a Abzan stock list, 4 Deathrite Shamans, 1 Sigarda, 1 SoLaS, 1 SoFaI, 1 Jitte with this SB:

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Choke
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Abrupt Decay

Also any advice for the matchups vs. the BG-Shell? My last tournament was ok, but forgot that Shardless Bug and Jund are decks and just didn't prepare for those and therefore lost 1-2 and 0-2. I feel like the matchup vs. those aren't that easy, especially without Punishing Fire.
Won against Miracles 2-0, Death and Taxes 2-0 and Burn 2-1 though.

I feel like Wilt Leaf Liege is a good go to against BGx decks. It's good against hymns/lili, dodges abrupt decay and would make a lot of our creatures out of punishing range. You could also use sword of feast and famine or mirran crusader if you really wanted to pack a lot against them.

edit: I also think scavenging ooze could be really good when it comes to eating graveyards to make goyf smaller, beating DRS and gaining life. You also get to eat punishing fires.

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Originally Posted by Luthiereisfun

I feel like Wilt Leaf Liege is a good go to against BGx decks. It's good against hymns/lili, dodges abrupt decay and would make a lot of our creatures out of punishing range. You could also use sword of feast and famine or mirran crusader if you really wanted to pack a lot against them.

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When was the last time you were truly so desperate against BGx that you needed to include a miser's anti-discard tech?

I don't think Wilt-Leaf Liege is needed as long the metagame isn't flooded with -1/-1 effects. I was more asking for general advice for approaching these matchups :)

I perosnally don't have any in my list but if there's a bunch of jund and bug running around I think it could be reasonable in the sb if you're having problems against them

Hello Maverick players,

I have not posted in a few months, however I am still actively playing Punishing Dark Maverick in 2015 and I'm still hooked. I have a million questions for the forum on the deck, however, I'll keep it small for now.

First, how have players felt about Scryb Ranger as of RECENTLY. This card hasn't caught my attention until I seen Delver, Stifle and Wasteland decks get more play since Treasure Cruise got banned.

Next I would like discuss the inclusion of SFM and Batterskull for decks. Personally on Punishing Maverick I've enjoyed 2x Jitte more than SFM, however, delver decks make SFM more appealing to me. Do you think 2x Jitte is underwhelming in a meta full of delver decks, elves and Miracles. SFM is clunky in my deck, however, using cards like Scryb Ranger may be even worse for me.

Now I would like to discuss Pyroblast in a maverick decks sideboard. This card seems attractive to me for a variety of reasons, however, it's not the kind of Haymaker sideboard card I'm used to like Choke. Currently my board has 1x choke (2x Etutors) and 2 pyroblast for general blue hate. Does Pyroblast seem like a good choice, or it's it's efficiency and power less desirable than a game-ending card.

Lastly I have an Abzan build in mind where I don't use DD/Stage or Maze of Ith and use Yavamaya Hallow and Cavern of Souls tech instead. It's been fun, but I haven't tested it like Pun Mav so I'm not 100% confident on build. Has anyone tested some cool lands as Tech and does anyone think stupid Siege Rhino could fit the aggressive build like my friend has been suggesting to me. The direct damage and life swing are how he makes his argument for a single Rhino, but it seems painfully average to me when you could probably get a knight and win.

Thanks for reading. I really appreciate feedback. Been playing Pun Dark Mav constantly since 2013 and only know so many ppl who can help me play this archetype.