[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

Forgive me the double post.

I've cut Grapeshot as I feel between Massacre and Void Snare there is no reason to run the storm-machinegun anymore. Our enemies are Thalia & Canonist and no longer Gaddock Teeg. We still have ToA to finish your opponents after a Goblin-assault.

Lil' poll for a recent question asked: would a 2/2/2/2 split between Decay/Pyroblast/Needle/Xantid make sense for you? Do we even need CoV with Wish->VS available and a more stable manabase outside of the random Eidolon? Looking forward to some brainstorming :)

How are people actually using Void Snare? Sorcery-speed bounce for 3 mana just seems useless in most instances, even if it is on-demand.

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Originally Posted by Bloodcookie

How are people actually using Void Snare?

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White Leyline. That's about it so far.

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Originally Posted by Bloodcookie

How are people actually using Void Snare? Sorcery-speed bounce for 3 mana just seems useless in most instances, even if it is on-demand.

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My meta has a lot of burn, so it's good for bouncing eidolons if I can't combo before they come down. It's also bounced a trinisphere such that I could then combo out, but that doesn't happen often.

I like it so far, but it's not really special.

I played in my first-ever FNM using TES last Friday. I wish I took better notes, but I put together a blog post about it


http://littlehart.net/grumpytopdecke...sign-of-storm/

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Forgive me the double post.

I've cut Grapeshot as I feel between Massacre and Void Snare there is no reason to run the storm-machinegun anymore. Our enemies are Thalia & Canonist and no longer Gaddock Teeg. We still have ToA to finish your opponents after a Goblin-assault.

Lil' poll for a recent question asked: would a 2/2/2/2 split between Decay/Pyroblast/Needle/Xantid make sense for you? Do we even need CoV with Wish->VS available and a more stable manabase outside of the random Eidolon? Looking forward to some brainstorming :)

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What's your whole SB currently verses what it would look like with the 2/2/2/2 split?

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Originally Posted by Bloodcookie

How are people actually using Void Snare? Sorcery-speed bounce for 3 mana just seems useless in most instances, even if it is on-demand.

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Pretty much a safety net so you don't have to panic board CoV or Decays, slowing you down for potentially no reason

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Forgive me the double post.

I've cut Grapeshot as I feel between Massacre and Void Snare there is no reason to run the storm-machinegun anymore. Our enemies are Thalia & Canonist and no longer Gaddock Teeg. We still have ToA to finish your opponents after a Goblin-assault.

Lil' poll for a recent question asked: would a 2/2/2/2 split between Decay/Pyroblast/Needle/Xantid make sense for you? Do we even need CoV with Wish->VS available and a more stable manabase outside of the random Eidolon? Looking forward to some brainstorming :)

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I'm not missing Pyroblast (unless you count kitchen table games against my brother on High Tide). I like that Chain of Vapor is a catch-all solution to anything that's not Counterbalance/Emrakul/Chalice of the Void, but I can see an argument to cut it for Pyroblast. When they tap out for Counterbalance/Vendilion Clique/Show and Tell, it gives you the opening you need. My gut instinct is that it's more narrow, but more impactful. Since my local metagame is really unpredictable, I'm going to stick to Chain of Vapor.

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Originally Posted by itrytostorm

What's your whole SB currently verses what it would look like with the 2/2/2/2 split?

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I don't run that split as it was a friends idea and I can not strickly argue against any split between Decay/Xantid/Needle/Pyroblast/CoV so I wanted to hear some gut-judgements from my dear Community :)

Main issues are obviously that you have too many cards to board against Miracles/S&T/etc and that most options are redundant.


Edit: his Suggestion was

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Void Snare
1 Duress
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

I just don't know if this makes any more sense than a 3/3/3 split or the like, especially if you consider the Grapeshot to be cut (including discussion of which card among Neelde/Xantid/Pyroblast has the least value). Bryant can imagine to cut all 4 Ponder and 2 Moxen to fit in all the stuff against Miracles, which I think of the only solution

@Lem:
I wanted to note I was the first to propose taking out Grapeshot just with Void snare and Massacre we have all the puzles... and its even better V.Snare than G.S. vs Teeg.;)

I for example prefer to even play more discard, just to potentiate that strategy, I like pyro because it helps me to be more stable and I need something apart from discard vs S&T. Xantid can be one.
V.S. is shinning for me these last times...
I think that Nedle and having in mind its function needs to be played maybe 3 as you need it mainly for:
- senseis, means that you need this ASAP in the table - also play c.b.!
- Wasteland, well you want a Land->Nedle all the time for this.

@To All TES Stormers:

I wanted to share some of my experiences with you last torunaments with the list, I made Top 8 both and near 50 people. not much testing just watching Decks and apply theory and statiscs.

The last tournament I played was with he following list:
No Tropical instead of I.T.

// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
2 [U] Underground Sea
2 [B] Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [5E] Dark Ritual
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [M14] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [ISD] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [RS] Tropical Island
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 1 [MM] Bribery
SB: 3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [FNM] Duress
1V.Snare

Well important notes about the tournament:

a) I reach a partial of 8-0 vs Jund, the game I played vs Jund even I got a Game Lost! the arbitrer took me apart and told me I had an Illegal Deck! there were near some people in black with Black glasses... I just forgot to side in EtW come on!.

b) I played vs OmniShow, and sure I dodn't play Xantid, but game 1 I just won, it seems easy really, on second was dictated by Leyline, and even the player made a mistake by his part, fact I didn't evaluate I could just have won because of this with the help of Pyroblast, in 3rd game Leyline wasn't in play but again pyro shined. so it could have been 3-0 vs this archetype.

c) VS Burn even with Traps is damn easy. Eidolon doesn't matter, I leave in here EtW.

d) Well the unique games I lost were vs Miracles, the first player from the top was that same player I had to face by second time in Top...:
I won both first games from both match ups.:
- In one he starts and lands a c.b. in my turn I play gitaxian (0 Cost from Top) and I Drew another B.Wish, no counter ->RoF->RoF->D.R.->LED (countered)->B.W. PiF and f*** incredible tendrils. I love this Deck
- The other1st game I needed 2 EtW and an A.N to win. Again I love this Deck

About the Looses from Miracles:
- In one lost game he reached the 4th c.b. I was able to destroyed/discarded 3 c.b. from his main. This archetype played 4c.b. and E.T. from side.
- In one game I lost because once I discarded a c.b. from his hand with C.T. he inmediatly on his 2nd turn drew one, otherwise he had lost.
- The other 2 match ups I lost were dictated by c.b., not senseis.

Well I reached some conclusions, because I'm tired to loose uniquely to c.b. from the last 4 Miracles I just won 1 Match up - and was because of clear misplays from opp. side...:
I'll see how P.Nelde Works. but I think 2 is not a good number, I really think 3 could be good.
I'll up to 4 the number of A.Decay maybe
I'll not play pyro anymore in miracles. I need much more polivalent cards and really pyros a) don't help to a c.b. landed and b) neither to nullyfy by its own a FoW as opposite to discard and c)neither helps to avoid senseis triggers. Nedle in here can helps to a),b) and c) in some percentage

I sided:
-3C.Mox-1Ponder-1EtW-1I.T=+1Tropical+3A.Decay+2Pyros.
in one next match ups I definately preferred to leave 1.C.M instead of pyro.
I wonder what have occurred If would have sided just -1EtW+1Discard. Lem says that this is not correct, but from 4 last analysed match ups vs miracles that's the unique way I've found to win. (apart from Y.P. still not tested) as their unique way to win us is via c.b.

I'm not sure what to do, if playing 4 decays or 3, but there is a fact and its that if c.b. plus senseis are active you're lost and c.b. wreckes also by its own, sure the match up in which I drew as never I've done before I won, but thats luck. and also the other.... (if not luck are just misplays people do, - sure my opp. was better player than the one that appeared in the Feature MAtchup on the cameras vs Bryant...) I'm not sure if to do what F.Fortune says and just side Nedle and more discard, or just more discard.

To be honest I'm not playing much Bribery or D.Returns, and neither Grapeshot, as I tested to take it out. and no regret.
The problem of taking out Bribery is that now it has only 2 different paths and debilitates Wish vs Reanimate and S&T, I think 2 are enough.
I won't take out Diminishing as I prefer keeping I.Tutor main and junk is a deck to have in mind by here so I prefer this configuration -look at results.

So I'm thinking in -1Bribery-2Pyro=+1A.Decay +2P.Nedle, or just switching the Bribery uniquely. I just love pyro, it served me well vs Omni and Blade and I need some kind of AntiShow card apart of discard just because of Leyline.

What do you guys think? I really would like to see if any won because of nedle or Decay vs Miracles.

@Togores:
Togores Paisano 2nd Top con TES, toma supéralo! Además ahora creo que jugaré Miracles ;) Ha ha ha. pero me tengo que quitar esa espinilla con el Ballestin, vaya bribón esta hecho!

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

I'm not sure what to do, if playing 4 decays or 3, but there is a fact and its that if c.b. plus senseis are active you're lost and c.b. wreckes also by its own, sure the match up in which I drew as never I've done before I won, but thats luck. and also the other.... (if not luck are just misplays people do, - sure my opp. was better player than the one that appeared in the Feature MAtchup in the cameras vs Bryant...) I'm not sure if to do what F.Fortune says and just side Nedle and more discard, or just more discard.

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Thanks for the report. From my experience, four decays makes for really terrible Ad Nauseums. I was hurting really badly while only playing three. Going up to three Pithing Needle is something I would consider though.

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

Well I reached some conclusions, because I'm tired to loose uniquely to c.b. from the last 4 Miracles I just won 1 Match up - and was because of clear misplays from opp. side...:
I'll see how P.Nelde Works. but I think 2 is not a good number, I really think 3 could be good.
I'll up to 4 the number of A.Decay maybe
I'll not play pyro anymore in miracles. I need much more polivalent cards and really pyros a) don't help to a c.b. landed and b) neither to nullyfy by its own a FoW as opposite to discard and c)neither helps to avoid senseis triggers. Nedle in here can helps to a),b) and c) in some percentage

I sided:
-3C.Mox-1Ponder-1EtW-1I.T=+1Tropical+3A.Decay+2Pyros.
in one next match ups I definately preferred to leave 1.C.M instead of pyro.
I wonder what have occurred If would have sided just -1EtW+1Discard. Lem says that this is not correct, but from 4 last analysed match ups vs miracles that's the unique way I've found to win. (apart from Y.P. still not tested) as their unique way to win us is via c.b.

I'm not sure what to do, if playing 4 decays or 3, but there is a fact and its that if c.b. plus senseis are active you're lost and c.b. wreckes also by its own, sure the match up in which I drew as never I've done before I won, but thats luck. and also the other.... (if not luck are just misplays people do, - sure my opp. was better player than the one that appeared in the Feature MAtchup on the cameras vs Bryant...) I'm not sure if to do what F.Fortune says and just side Nedle and more discard, or just more discard.

What do you guys think? I really would like to see if any won because of nedle or Decay vs Miracles.

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The problem with miracles is that floated counter plus SDT as well as the Counterbalance-trigger can get annoying seperately. I fear there is no other solution than running Decays to break free from a resolved Counterbalance even if Needle and Xantid can block the floated counters via SDT. Relying on discard only against CB is nuts imo. Pyroblast is just not reliable enough to get Counterbalance under control, but the biggest upside of it among the 4 cards we discussed lately is, that it can delay the Delver-clock and can get rid of Meddling Mages for a very low cost, with the downside that it does nothing against the floated-counter issue. The question should be, which ine is the best add-on for Decay to screw Miracles AND S&T. My current gut-feeling is that Xantids are the least flexible slots atm, but I love to hear other people's thoughts.

The problem with playing 4 decays and 3 Needles is finding space to board all these AND having enough stuff in the side to effectively battle S&T. For the boarding there is the idea of simply boarding out all 4 Ponders (and 2 Moxen) for more solutions in the room, which may needs some discussion as I have the impression that this would put us into the pure topdeck-mode with stuff like 2 Duress, 4 Therapy, 2 Decay, 2 Needles, 2 Pyroblasts, aka 12 protection pieces potentially bricking our own combo-game.

Any comments on using Blackmail as a Duress replacement? Just wondering what other players think of they ability to discard any card they show you out of three, can make up for the fact that they only show you three out of how many cards they do have.

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Originally Posted by shaggai

Any comments on using Blackmail as a Duress replacement? Just wondering what other players think of they ability to discard any card they show you out of three, can make up for the fact that they only show you three out of how many cards they do have.

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Seems...poor.

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Originally Posted by shaggai

Any comments on using Blackmail as a Duress replacement? Just wondering what other players think of they ability to discard any card they show you out of three, can make up for the fact that they only show you three out of how many cards they do have.

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if your meta is dense with creatures, you can just use thoughtseize

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Originally Posted by shaggai

Any comments on using Blackmail as a Duress replacement? Just wondering what other players think of they ability to discard any card they show you out of three, can make up for the fact that they only show you three out of how many cards they do have.

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You mean like showing you 3 non-counterspells while having Flusterstorm in hand? I'm curious what you had Blackmail in mind for if it's downsides are so obvious?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I don't get that logic of reducing Moxen and playing Cabals just because you might play more Fetches. The Problem with Cabal Rituals is that no matter how you chain Wishes into PIF or EtW or create a PIF loop into Wish, you always need the double red if you have your ToA in the SB. Bet I crunch numbers all the time and don't spit out stuff without reason

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Three red actually: Wish, Past in Flames and Wish again, assuming we have both Past in Flames and Tendrils on side, like we normally do. Getting to RRR without Rite of Flame means we are fully dependent on LED to get enough red mana. This makes the Past in Flames kill harder to set up.

TNT is optimized for an Ad Nauseam kill. It usually plays (or should I say "played" since, Team Nijmegen plays TES right now) two copies of Ad Nauseam and no Empty the Warrens in the main deck. The Cabal Rituals are used to generate extra mana so one can go Infernal > Wish > Empty in situations where that is the more secure path to victory.

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Originally Posted by shaggai

Any comments on using Blackmail as a Duress replacement? Just wondering what other players think of they ability to discard any card they show you out of three, can make up for the fact that they only show you three out of how many cards they do have.

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Even Inquisition of Kozilek is better than Blackmail. They just don't show the card that stops us if we use Blackmail. Inquisition has one major drawback: it doesn't hit Force of Will. That's why we also don't usually play that card. We are pretty much stuck with the cards that hit every relevant counterspell, which are Duress, Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy.

Maybe dumb question, and I'm sure it has been asked before, but I need to get it outta my mind...

When we switched Silences for Duress and/or Thoughtseizes, removing white from manabase as result, it was because all the hatebears as Thalia, Meddling mage etc, and making the manabase more stable. As added bonus, we could combo with protection even faster than before since we only needed black and red mana.

That was a few months ago. The metagame has more blue than ever and and we can't combo as quickly as always, like Lemnear said. Apparently there's no so much hatebears as when white was kicked from manabase and we're running 3 Duress in Silence slots right now.

What am I driving at? Well, what if we go back to running white and Silences? Pros: Silence is useful against Miracles (FOW at topdeck, Terminus trigger if we did ETW tokens, etc) and Stifle decks; at first game it gives us as much protection as Duress. Cons: Weaker manabase (-1 Fetch -1 Tropical +2 City of Brass/Mana Confluence, or whatever); We can't get opponent's hand information when we're casting it, so we cast it the turn we're going to combo (we can also cast it for timewalking the opponent at his unkeep), while Duress can be casted even if we're not going for it just for the information it gives (and for discard his/her best no creature spell, btw)...

Thoughts?

I'll weigh in on some thoughts. I'm a skeptic to cut Grapeshot for Massacre.

It's a general use card, where as Massacre isn't. I've killed Craterhoof Behemoths and Germ tokens along with other creatures on board. I've made top 8s of large events because it's an unknown factor where the opponent thought I couldn't kill them with Tendrils so, "Sure." I have wished for Grapeshot to clear an opponent's board (Jared Beottcher) and then deal them seven only to resolve Past in Flames a few turns later and use the same Grapeshot for lethal. Massacre is quite narrow and really only effective versus Death & Taxes which is already a positive match-up, why are we making ourselves generally worse to improve one already great match-up? Doesn't make sense to me.

I've seen the discussion on cutting Chain of Vapor. I'm for it, I've done some brainstorming. Here's my initial take:

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

I'd rather have the extra Decay as it's a card I always want to see in the Miracles match-up, I also side it in versus UWr Delver to combat Meddling Mages/Delvers. I understand Pyroblast is also effective here, it's just less reliable. When I was playing two copies of Pyroblast, I often found myself only siding in one in certain match-ups such as RUG Delver anyway. As for siding in seven cards against Miracles, I think this is reasonable:

-2 Chrome Mox
-4 Ponder
-1 Empty the Warrens

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Tendrils of Agony

Miracles isn't a match-up where card selection is key as much as being threat dense and disrupting the opponent is. This is likely my new approach, they naturally slow the game down meaning that finding the right pieces quickly isn't as important. Having this much disruption for their hate and countermagic will likely make this match-up favorable post-board.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Three red actually: Wish, Past in Flames and Wish again, assuming we have both Past in Flames and Tendrils on side, like we normally do. Getting to RRR without Rite of Flame means we are fully dependent on LED to get enough red mana. This makes the Past in Flames kill harder to set up.

TNT is optimized for an Ad Nauseam kill. It usually plays (or should I say "played" since, Team Nijmegen plays TES right now) two copies of Ad Nauseam and no Empty the Warrens in the main deck. The Cabal Rituals are used to generate extra mana so one can go Infernal > Wish > Empty in situations where that is the more secure path to victory.

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I don't had in mind to cast all three in a single turn so you can save 2 mana and the need for three red total (instead of my mentioned 2). You get the idea.

I've tinkered with 2 or 3 MB AN 1,5 years ago, but it wasn't any better than having the strategic flexibility of dumping Goblins off 6 mana and an Infernal which make me laugh at every Burn.dec or D&T I faced in the last years (and A reason I held onto the 4 MB Infernals)

Edit 1:

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Originally Posted by Niggurath

Maybe dumb question, and I'm sure it has been asked before, but I need to get it outta my mind...

When we switched Silences for Duress and/or Thoughtseizes, removing white from manabase as result, it was because all the hatebears as Thalia, Meddling mage etc, and making the manabase more stable. As added bonus, we could combo with protection even faster than before since we only needed black and red mana.

That was a few months ago. The metagame has more blue than ever and and we can't combo as quickly as always, like Lemnear said. Apparently there's no so much hatebears as when white was kicked from manabase and we're running 3 Duress in Silence slots right now.

What am I driving at? Well, what if we go back to running white and Silences? Pros: Silence is useful against Miracles (FOW at topdeck, Terminus trigger if we did ETW tokens, etc) and Stifle decks; at first game it gives us as much protection as Duress. Cons: Weaker manabase (-1 Fetch -1 Tropical +2 City of Brass/Mana Confluence, or whatever); We can't get opponent's hand information when we're casting it, so we cast it the turn we're going to combo (we can also cast it for timewalking the opponent at his unkeep), while Duress can be casted even if we're not going for it just for the information it gives (and for discard his/her best no creature spell, btw)...

Thoughts?

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The most important thing you miss here is that the manabase and protection did not got altered for having a more stable manabase against Thalia, Meddling Mage or even Wasteland. It was because people finally realized that fighting storm with single angles of answers is too linear to succeed and they started to pair counterspells with Hatebears and /or discard. Even with the manabase- & colorieren aside, Silence is plain inefficient to fight decks with both, instant- & sorcery-speed disruption, resulting into carddisadvantage if you have to delay a Canonist for a turn, but your opponent still holding a Force of Will. Only discard is potent enough to pick apart diverse angles of opposing protection without Virtual or actual carddisadvantage. In addition you gain better cantrips because of the opened space for more Fetches and a faster, protected combo-turn as you need only 2 colors instead of 3. The point is that I have not noticed that the trend towards a duality of hate-angles reversed and people are overloading on counters once again. This is also the reason, I have no more love for Xantid as you might have noticed within one or the other recent post of me.

Edit 2:

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

It's a general use card, where as Massacre isn't. I've killed Craterhoof Behemoths and Germ tokens along with other creatures on board. I've made top 8s of large events because it's an unknown factor where the opponent thought I couldn't kill them with Tendrils so, "Sure." I have wished for Grapeshot to clear an opponent's board (Jared Beottcher) and then deal them seven only to resolve Past in Flames a few turns later and use the same Grapeshot for lethal. Massacre is quite narrow and really only effective versus Death & Taxes which is already a positive match-up, why are we making ourselves generally worse to improve one already great match-up? Doesn't make sense to me.

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For me, the Situation described is a special one and I cannot recall if leeching life via ToA and then flashback it with PIF would have wielded a much different outcome or if killing the board with Massacre would have been impossible (thoughness-wise and mana-wise). I don't see it limited to D&T as I've used it pretty often against Patriot and Co. I'm convinced that most creatures we care for a white anyways and sweeping the board with Grapeshot eats up a lot of spells (which can also be Rituals/RoF) which also means that a possible playline of sweeping the board and dropping Goblins later is pretty much denied.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I don't had in mind to cast all three in a single turn so you can save 2 mana and the need for three red total (instead of my mentioned 2). You get the idea.

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I know that's an option. I'm just adding the fact that oftentimes you may need RRR. Wishing for PiF and then waiting a turn allows them a turn to draw hate. If you have a window, you should take it. Of course you can just tap two lands to cast Wish and see what they do. If it resolves, your problem is solved. If they counter it, they have a counter less, but you also have a Wish less. It's very situation dependent, and I have encountered many situations where I simply needed RRR for a Past in Flames kill.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I've tinkered with 2 or 3 MB AN 1,5 years ago, but it wasn't any better than having the strategic flexibility of dumping Goblins off 6 mana and an Infernal which make me laugh at every Burn.dec or D&T I faced in the last years (and A reason I held onto the 4 MB Infernals)

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I was simply pointing out that TNT is a different deck, built for a different purpose.
It was designed to optimize the Ad Nauseam kill while maintaining the flexibility of Wish.
Note that this was before Gitaxian Probe, but after the banning of Mystical Tutor.
I'm not even sure whether Team Nijmegen have optimized the list at all post Probe.
EDIT: My post about TNT was also aimed at the one who mentioned the deck.

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Originally Posted by saur

Thanks for the report.
You're welcome, I also do so to get better my english!

From my experience, four decays makes for really terrible Ad Nauseums. I was hurting really badly while only playing three. Going up to three Pithing Needle is something I would consider though.
Well, If I reach that point - casting A.N vs Miracles, Revealing 4 A.Decays + X Other cards, staying +2 Lifes and passing the turn is something I'll do every day of the week. This is the less important issue, I wish I would have casted A.N. this didnt occur too often....

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The problem with miracles is that floated counter plus SDT as well as the Counterbalance-trigger can get annoying seperately. I fear there is no other solution than running Decays to break free from a resolved Counterbalance even if Needle and Xantid can block the floated counters via SDT.
Relying on discard only against CB is nuts imo.

Yes we need to think in something better...

Pyroblast is just not reliable enough to get Counterbalance under control, but the biggest upside of it among the 4 cards we discussed lately is, that it can delay the Delver-clock and can get rid of Meddling Mages for a very low cost, with the downside that it does nothing against the floated-counter issue. The question should be, which ine is the best add-on for Decay to screw Miracles AND S&T. My current gut-feeling is that Xantids are the least flexible slots atm, but I love to hear other people's thoughts.

The problem with playing 4 decays and 3 Needles is finding space to board all these AND having enough stuff in the side to effectively battle S&T. For the boarding there is the idea of simply boarding out all 4 Ponders (and 2 Moxen) for more solutions in the room, which may needs some discussion as I have the impression that this would put us into the pure topdeck-mode with stuff like 2 Duress, 4 Therapy, 2 Decay, 2 Needles, 2 Pyroblasts, aka 12 protection pieces potentially bricking our own combo-game.

Good to hear same feelings

In the last match ups I can say that I reached some games in which sometimes only c.b. is bad they just show terminus or jace or x card and then is the chance to play the correct spell, I reached games that if senseis wasnt there I would have won just simply by playing the spells I am able to, the process is:
- At its simplest: Cast the 'worst' spell in hand, if revealing and countering cast other diff. spells, otherwise keep plaing spells. sometimes you just sit down until you reach 8 in hand and start casting spells, even you know which cards he will draw my friend!!!

By doing this you just need to have lot of discard to make sure in the 2 first turns hit something ideally c.s. effects or B.S., to inmeditaly play Nedle or play nedle and next discard and won as ex., from here even aditional C.B. and senseis are useless! I just need to test this as seems interesting - 0 A.D. 3 or4 P.Nedle and maybe Aditional Discard effects.

I'm looking at this side having in mind the Opening List but -1T.I+1I.T.

SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [ISD] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 4 P.Nedle
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [FNM] Duress
1V.Snare
1CoV or Bribery likely CoV as now I don't have other stuff.

MAinly I just will do vs Miracles:
-1EtW,-2Ponder,-1I.T,-1C.M = +4 P.N. +1T.Seize,
I'm really happy to see a +1 card vs OmniShow, but I really don't expect it at all and is already favourable, but sure will improve S&T,
not much changes about the rest of decks but not sure if I will miss the tropical in some match ups and bribery...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I'll weigh in on some thoughts. I'm a skeptic to cut Grapeshot for Massacre.

It's a general use card, where as Massacre isn't. I've killed Craterhoof Behemoths and Germ tokens along with other creatures on board. I've made top 8s of large events because it's an unknown factor where the opponent thought I couldn't kill them with Tendrils so, "Sure." I have wished for Grapeshot to clear an opponent's board (Jared Beottcher) and then deal them seven only to resolve Past in Flames a few turns later and use the same Grapeshot for lethal. Massacre is quite narrow and really only effective versus Death & Taxes which is already a positive match-up, why are we making ourselves generally worse to improve one already great match-up? Doesn't make sense to me.


Well, Massacre is also good vs all kind of Blade Decks and it's in general a better creature destroyer, I really would prefer in some scenarios also to cast D.R.->MAssacre instead of playing all artifacts to get high storm for G.S.
D&T is in general a Good match up but it is a 2 Land Deck Clock and Having Access to 4 2-Card destroyer Creatures is gold if there is D&T or MAverick in the meta - in mine there is D&T.
Apart talking with people in general they say they prefer to name Black even knowing the cards of the deck with M.M..., people says that it can be ANT or that Black Spells are higher or that my side can be based on this assumption even!, but I think that's absurd, maybe I'm wrong, f**** relativity!, I won't base on this general statement to say that also kills a lot of Mages and canonist by 2 mana also.

I won't also to likely destroy annoying creatures with G.S. - Gaddok Teeg having Access to a 1 Mana spell. I think the puzzle is covered by V.S. plus Massacre and there is enough winCon in the deck, From the V.Snare era I haven't really needed G.S. at all. it was much more efficient V.S. or Massacre at that point.

I've seen the discussion on cutting Chain of Vapor. I'm for it, I've done some brainstorming. Here's my initial take:

3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

I'd rather have the extra Decay as it's a card I always want to see in the Miracles match-up, I also side it in versus UWr Delver to combat Meddling Mages/Delvers. I understand Pyroblast is also effective here, it's just less reliable. When I was playing two copies of Pyroblast, I often found myself only siding in one in certain match-ups such as RUG Delver anyway. As for siding in seven cards against Miracles, I think this is reasonable:

-2 Chrome Mox
-4 Ponder
-1 Empty the Warrens

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Tendrils of Agony

Miracles isn't a match-up where card selection is key as much as being threat dense and disrupting the opponent is. This is likely my new approach, they naturally slow the game down meaning that finding the right pieces quickly isn't as important. Having this much disruption for their hate and countermagic will likely make this match-up favorable post-board.


Moreless agree, I'm thinking in going up to 4 A.D. and finally include Nedles, Really A.D. is a card that I only need vs Miracles...
I've been winning my last 3 1st games vs Miracles from the latest 4 MAtch ups and loosing 3 of them, so I need to disagree.
I definately decided to not to play pyro vs Miracles, for my taste its too narrow and If playing A.D. it's non sense to include it for M.M.

Playing 0 ponder seems strange to me really in here I value a top decked Ponder in the midgame much more than a Gitaxian and you seem to want to reach the midgame with that configuration... I just don't side anymore WinCon vs miracles, they just play 1 or 0 mages - for them C.B. is enough, and they know well the power of Fluster...

Next times I'll try to side what I've commented as I see the unique way to handle this, also seems an interesting strategy vs this archetype. Nullyfy Senseis and C.B. with 1 card! Maybe I add 1 pyro to handle those possible Mages, but not likely.

EDIT: Other approach I wouldconsider:

-3 Chrome Mox
-2 Ponder
-1 Empty the Warrens

+4 Abrupt Decay
+2 Pithing Needle

From Opening List

What do you guys think?

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My notes in Arial.

Die you, in a single post, argue for 0 Decays & for 4 Decays at once? :)

The problem with european Miracles is the density of 1cc and 2cc spells to blindflip to counterbalance, potentially delaying you for turns with them being able to cast Ponders and Brainstorms to keep you in check with Counterbalance and their hand, which is the Main reason I'm sceptical about having no option to attack Counterbalance or Sneak a threat in under it. The general Problem with discard-only here is the same as trying to get control over the D&T hatebears by keeping a discard-heavy hand: you simply get blown out by topdecks. In one case it's Counterbalance; more hatebears in the other.

Sad that WotC isn't going to print an uncounterable Pyroblast xD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Die you, in a single post, argue for 0 Decays & for 4 Decays at once? :)

The problem with european Miracles is the density of 1cc and 2cc spells to blindflip to counterbalance, potentially delaying you for turns with them being able to cast Ponders and Brainstorms to keep you in check with Counterbalance and their hand, which is the Main reason I'm sceptical about having no option to attack Counterbalance or Sneak a threat in under it. The general Problem with discard-only here is the same as trying to get control over the D&T hatebears by keeping a discard-heavy hand: you simply get blown out by topdecks. In one case it's Counterbalance; more hatebears in the other.

Sad that WotC isn't going to print an uncounterable Pyroblast xD

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Yeah Die me!, I just dont know what to do, I just can win every other decks apart of MUD and shitty c.b. ruins generally my day...
I'm just saying what all we know, taking a mid game or late game vs miracles is something we really do not want to do, in essential it is an easy control match up with c.b. so we can treat the match up as a Control match up ignoring the c.b. via nedle. facing a deck with such a pressure you can just dismember him slowly - just play cards when you have 8 cards when nedle and c.b. are in play, other wise play discard and win.

I've just had lot of situations in which you see a c.b. in table and you are up to loose but becuase you simply are in a hurry to not to see the senseis, that feling should change with Nedle in table!... I think just avoiding this situaton will improve the things, I just want to do a T1 Senseis or T1 Flooded and ruin its day. maybe I switch to 4 blodstained and 2 mysty for this reason..., this is a direction I'd like to test, I really never had in mind Nedle vs this archetype I recognize, and the theory is convincing me more and more...

By the other hand, playing Decays is just the unique solution available to c.b. I just can conclude that If I go by this direction I'll increase to 4 the number, I would like to include also Nedles but not sure if there is space and seems that too many cards need to go out..., If I found scenarios I can make Decay to Senseis and win on next turn I'll do so, the reallyty is that never there are enough decays fo c.b. and the wins goes thorugh oter directions...
It is true that Miracles opp. by my meta dont usually play ponder and potentiate the c.b. so for me all I can say is that 3 A.Decay plus 2 pyro has not been enough. Maybe 2 Nedles will help instead? not sure as what I wanted in those scenarios was just more Decays...

I really would like to have time to test wich approach could be better and wins more percentage vs both archetpes of Miracles...

Trying to improve the side strategy:

-2 Chrome Mox
-4 Ponder
-1 Empty the Warrens

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Tendrils of Agony

I just think that I would not side in Tendrils and pyro, I think I prefer some number of ponders, what do yo think? really 0 ponders? I remember when Bryant proposed taking out the Gitaxian vs Burn...

The Tendrils strategy has lost much since Fluster came up. my Blue opponents play all as mínimum 2, c.b play 3, I as a c.b. player play 3. and It is the card that most love control players vs us. no doubt I just think more discard or cantrip or decays will be better, I also don't think we will loose because of loosing all WinCon vs Miracles - we have Decays for Mage for those corner cases and they don't run Extirpate effects. what I want to do vs miracles i resolving a A.N. not a corner case tendrils, and I really do not want to draw that card.

The pyro is just one card that when I have drawn vs miracles really didn't do anything:
- In scenarios in which I could counter c.b. or destroyed it almost always was countered as I really don't have time-luck to do Duress plus Pro!
- In scenarios in which I needed to nullyfy counters is just shit, maybe for some Therapy beeingprotecting from FoW...
- I really don't fear vendilion, and playing 1 single pyro just seems too narrow for this purpose, If doing this seems more logical to side in the T.Seize instead of duress also.

I maybe could do like this but taking out pyro and tendrils for 2 ponder - I maybe take out the 3rd mox for the 3rd ponder also. I apprecitate a lot the ponders if I want to draw a card I have only 3 copies in my deck.

What do you guys think?

We need to talk about this one for our SB:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...6145042061.jpg

Edit: Remove Fetchlands and cantrips to refill your hand in grindy matchups? Bet I'll test that. Could even be a better SB business spell than Infernal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

We need to talk about this one for our SB:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...6145042061.jpg

Edit: Remove Fetchlands and cantrips to refill your hand in grindy matchups? Bet I'll test that. Could even be a better SB business spell than Infernal

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I don't think it's good enough. Burning Wish + this even if we can use it as Ancestral Recall costs 3 mana to draw 3 cards isn't as powerful as any of the current wish targets IMO. The time I see this being very good is when we're facing a tempo/aggro deck and we can't continue Ad Nauseam-ing and we need to hit more mana so we Wish for this in hopes of hitting LED + some other mana source.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JonahGaynor

I don't think it's good enough. Burning Wish + this even if we can use it as Ancestral Recall costs 3 mana to draw 3 cards isn't as powerful as any of the current wish targets IMO. The time I see this being very good is when we're facing a tempo/aggro deck and we can't continue Ad Nauseam-ing and we need to hit more mana so we Wish for this in hopes of hitting LED + some other mana source.

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We never had access to a strong draw effect, to come back after an attrition battle, so far, which isn't symmetrical. We toyed with Doomsday and Infernal Contract in the past and this is a straight upgrade to these in terms of being a potential "SB engine"

Edit:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

Yeah Die me!, I just dont know what to do, I just can win every other decks apart of MUD and shitty c.b. ruins generally my day...
I'm just saying what all we know, taking a mid game or late game vs miracles is something we really do not want to do, in essential it is an easy control match up with c.b. so we can treat the match up as a Control match up ignoring the c.b. via nedle. facing a deck with such a pressure you can just dismember him slowly - just play cards when you have 8 cards when nedle and c.b. are in play, other wise play discard and win.

Quote:

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Mayor flaw: you can't ignore Counterbalance nust because of Needle. Have you seen the latest Miracles lists with Ponder, Counterspells and Snapcaster Mages (on Brainstorm)? Good luck trying to dodge all those 1cc and 2cc spells on top of their deck even if you block SDT.

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I've just had lot of situations in which you see a c.b. in table and you are up to loose but becuase you simply are in a hurry to not to see the senseis, that feling should change with Nedle in table!... I think just avoiding this situaton will improve the things, I just want to do a T1 Senseis or T1 Flooded and ruin its day. maybe I switch to 4 blodstained and 2 mysty for this reason..., this is a direction I'd like to test, I really never had in mind Nedle vs this archetype I recognize, and the theory is convincing me more and more...

Quote:

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mind that you habe to resolve Needle before Counterbalance lands or you have the same Problem Pyroblast has (being countered). The only card here helping you to push through a Needle with Counterblaance on the field is ... Abrupt Decay

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By the other hand, playing Decays is just the unique solution available to c.b. I just can conclude that If I go by this direction I'll increase to 4 the number, I would like to include also Nedles but not sure if there is space and seems that too many cards need to go out..., If I found scenarios I can make Decay to Senseis and win on next turn I'll do so, the reallyty is that never there are enough decays fo c.b. and the wins goes thorugh oter directions...
It is true that Miracles opp. by my meta dont usually play ponder and potentiate the c.b. so for me all I can say is that 3 A.Decay plus 2 pyro has not been enough. Maybe 2 Nedles will help instead? not sure as what I wanted in those scenarios was just more Decays...

I really would like to have time to test wich approach could be better and wins more percentage vs both archetpes of Miracles...

Trying to improve the side strategy:

-2 Chrome Mox
-4 Ponder
-1 Empty the Warrens

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Tendrils of Agony

I just think that I would not side in Tendrils and pyro, I think I prefer some number of ponders, what do yo think? really 0 ponders? I remember when Bryant proposed taking out the Gitaxian vs Burn...

Quote:

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Removing the Probes also renders the Therapies useless, which is the reason you might want to remove Ponders which you'll mainly use to find the Decays & Co. anyways but are also victims to Counterbalance. I'm not a fan of boarding ToA here.

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The Tendrils strategy has lost much since Fluster came up. my Blue opponents play all as mínimum 2, c.b play 3, I as a c.b. player play 3. and It is the card that most love control players vs us. no doubt I just think more discard or cantrip or decays will be better, I also don't think we will loose because of loosing all WinCon vs Miracles - we have Decays for Mage for those corner cases and they don't run Extirpate effects. what I want to do vs miracles i resolving a A.N. not a corner case tendrils, and I really do not want to draw that card.

The pyro is just one card that when I have drawn vs miracles really didn't do anything:
- In scenarios in which I could counter c.b. or destroyed it almost always was countered as I really don't have time-luck to do Duress plus Pro!
- In scenarios in which I needed to nullyfy counters is just shit, maybe for some Therapy beeingprotecting from FoW...
- I really don't fear vendilion, and playing 1 single pyro just seems too narrow for this purpose, If doing this seems more logical to side in the T.Seize instead of duress also.

Quote:

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don't underestimate SB Canonists or Meddling Mages!

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I maybe could do like this but taking out pyro and tendrils for 2 ponder - I maybe take out the 3rd mox for the 3rd ponder also. I apprecitate a lot the ponders if I want to draw a card I have only 3 copies in my deck.

What do you guys think?

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@Lem:

Related to side Miracles Side strategy:

Well,I'll just test the 4 Nelde approach in some moment, by here Miracles is played with less Snaps and Ponders. I just want to test that direction, I'll see what happens, yeah maybe I need luck, that that happens to me vs Miracles already... If the 4 A.D. Approach doesn't work for me I'll try the other approach... I'm want to see the power of Nedle!

By the other hand the A.D. approach the problem I have is finding space for 4 Decyas plus 2 Nedle, I could took out Pyros, but then I have no answer vs Omni plus Leyline which is what worryes me a litle, for the rest of scenarios Discard and A.D. can replace the roles of Pyro. I will decide if I depend on not Laying Leyline in a Blue Deck, as I have lot of discard. I'll see what happens...
I do not understimate M.Mages, I do canonist, counterbalance players now they know they prefer to play even more c.b. than such a specific card that even is worst vs us than c.b. -> we can always do B.W.->MAssacre, apart I'll include at least 4 A.D. - the 4th will be the single pyro.

Related to the dependency of Therapy from Gitaxian. and its purpose to take it out instead of Ponder: I just do not need Gitaxian in order to Therapy to be good vs Miracles so I don't see the advantages of playing Gitaxian over ponder, If we are going for the Control Role, I really like some number of ponders, sure I would like to play gitaxian, but a Turn One ponder if I dont have A.D. is one of the things I want to do more, apart of topdecking a Ponder instead of a gitaxian. Sure we want to know the route via looking opp. hand, but honestly we all know how this game is going to develop..., apart I dont need to make storm for natural tendrils.

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Duress
1 Tropical Island
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Diminishing R.--> Will be that New Card Likely! More Anti Miracles Stuff Ha ha. Joke. but Sure I'll test it!
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

Doing this I only loose vs OmniShow withLeyline, as I just side in more discard and thats all. Even I gain vs S&T as I believe that Nedle will have more impact than Pyro in here. VS Tempo I don't do much, so I really won't miss much Pyro.
I'm thinking in doing: Having in mind the Oppening List Base:

+4 A.D.
+2P.Nedle

=
-1EtW
-3C.M.
-1 Ponder
-1 G.P.


Thinkings:
- I'm not sure about taking out full of moxen but the fact is that I assume I will go in that role playing this side and I absolutly do not mind to pass the turn once A.N. has been resolved.
- Definately 0 Pyro, the 4th decay is much better
- I think it is acceptable taking out 1 ponder and gitaxian, on overall I prefer Ponder, but I conceive Gitaxian as a .5 Land so I'm worry about that. I know gitaxian is a Not To Side Out Card, but we are including a lot of cards...
- I've been thinging in taking 1 Terapy instead of 1 Duress becaus of -1 G.P. and the absence of EtW, but inmediatly discarded, Therapy is just wonderful.

Opinions?

Regarding the New Card,
all I can say is that I'm happy to see a new card that deservers testing for TES! I don't say this usually.
I really don't know If I'll include as I see in that card the replacement of D.Returns clearly, the only thing I would like to know is if this card can make me win as a Business spell. with Ton of mana and maybe a ponder or Brainstorm, if so, then we have a card for the side!

analyzing the card a litle more:
- its a clear card for the mid-late game, Diminishing by the other hand can also be quick as opposite to this, I dont know if this is convenient, also vs Jund I prefer DimnishingR.
- We can also go in the ANT route with that card just by playing discard, fetching and cantripping and refilling!
- DRS is a card that also shuts down this card and mabe a RiP also.
- As you say its not symetrical so its better than lot of other tested cards, it is a Great Puzzle Piece!


Well Definately need testing, but well the Side is already highly compressed.

I back read some pages. I missed a lot.
Here’s my share on the discussion.

I cannot imagine cutting the Xantids.

I think two decays fits just right for our deck. Now if CB is rampant in your meta, then make it 3.

Probe isn’t around all the time and you will need to make a good read or guess of your opponent with needles. SURE, it stops his fetches, demon from drawing and Sneak Attack but nothing beats the feeling of going off unmolested even if he has multiple counters at hand.

Against Miracles, I’d rather have a pyroblast than a needle. I share the same sentiment with Lemear, even you managed to name SDT, CB decks have a lot of 1 and 2 cc. Not to mention, pyroblast can counter/ kill some of their best assets against us, Meddling Mage, Snapcaster Mage and Vendillion Clique.

Before, I really did not like grapeshot. But when I needed another form of removal, I didn’t have massacre then, I never remove grapeshot again. It also won me games when I only needed two - three spells and I the only mana combination I had was xxRR. Massacre cannot kill Teeg too.

Void Snare! ^_^

Blackmail, seriously? If you don’t have Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy, Duress and Inquisition of Kozilek would be a fine combination of protection. Or better yet, revert back to Silence and Duress duo.

Weekend is in the air, I hope someone out there will go in a legacy tournament and share/ post a mini TR here for us to read.

And that’s my two cents folks.
^_^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paeng4983

I cannot imagine cutting the Xantids.

-snip-

Probe isn’t around all the time and you will need to make a good read or guess of your opponent with needles. SURE, it stops his fetches, demon from drawing and Sneak Attack but nothing beats the feeling of going off unmolested even if he has multiple counters at hand.

Against Miracles, I’d rather have a pyroblast than a needle. I share the same sentiment with Lemear, even you managed to name SDT, CB decks have a lot of 1 and 2 cc. Not to mention, pyroblast can counter/ kill some of their best assets against us, Meddling Mage, Snapcaster Mage and Vendillion Clique.

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We cannot talk about Needle and Xantid in a vacuum here without missing the most important differences. One is that Xantid needs green mana and having to fetch for the Tropical in a match which is primary a race between two combo decks, getting a land into play which does not produce ANY of your two combo-colors is a very questionable move, especially if you have to race a potentially hasty Emrakul thanks to Sneak Attack. What is often missed to far in the discussion of Needle/Pyroblast/Xantid is that the later 2 only affect one of SneakShows combo pieces each (Xantid->Griselbrand; Pyroblast->S&T) while Needle covers 2 in Griselbrand and Sneak Attack! There is nothing worse than dropping a Xantid in the face of Sneak Attack with your opponent just topdecking and cantripping into the Spaghetti God.

Reducing Needles application against Miracles just to the CounterTopLock is a bit short-sighted imo. Even if the primary idea was to meddle with the Counterbalance-Triggers, harming Miracles' quality card selection and their ability to hide counterspells from your discard can be as crucial as denying them to top-shuffle-top for a Terminus once you drop some Goblins. You can even feel free to stop Jace from drawing cards, screwing with your topdeck and winning the game or ultimately end shenanigans with Karakas and Clique.

Just a bit food for thought.

Hey guys, I'd figure I'd share the two lists I have at the moment.

3.5 Color TES

4 Gemstone Mine
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

3c

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

I arrived at the 3c list as a concession that Xantid Swarm just isn't very good at the moment. Which made me wonder if supporting green solely based for Abrupt Decay is worth it. I understand that this won't be a popular choice, but I think it's worth it to attempt to innovate. We're essentially a stable manabase at this point while being faster than ANT. The miracles match-up takes a slight hit, but at the added bonus of being better against practically everything else. I think six discard spells, three needle and three pyroblast will stand more than a fair shot at beating Miracles.

If you're still interested in Decay, this is an alternative sideboard:

Sideboard
1 Tropical Island
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Massacre/Infernal (Infernal only works if you add another Duress in the MD)
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

The issue with this is that Decay isn't a reliable answer against decks like Death and Taxes as you only have a single green source now. Making the deck want Chain of Vapor.

I like the 3c list, it's converging into the TNT lists of old more and more (especially now that you've gotten rid of the 5c lands). I had brought it up some weeks ago and got somewhat flamed but I still think there's merit in going the all duals&fetches route with the manabase and basically just becoming a faster version of ANT with the added flexibility of BW.

Some thoughts on the 3-color list:

I actually tried TNT on my stream a couple days ago, and it is pretty similar to the 3-color list for TES. However, one thing I was missing in the list was Rite of Flame, as Lemnear mentions in an earlier post, its really awkward trying to go Wish -> PiF/EtW when you don't have double red. I think having a couple basics to side step wasteland and not having to worry over Gemstone Mines in long games is beneficial. This list strikes me as very promising, I'll likely end up trying it.

In terms of matchups, I think Reanimator is worse, but that matchup was already awkward and bad to begin with. One issue I want to touch on regarding Miracles is that, with emphasis on Pyroblast and Pithing Needle and no guaranteed out to resolved Counterbalance, I think Empty the Warrens is a lot stronger. If you play online, you might notice that Miracles lists are running fewer Terminuses, to be better prepared for the mirror and other control decks, and aggressively using Needle and Pyroblasts to hit Top/Brainstorm can lead to a win. you can make room for 6 cards by cutting 2 Chrome Mox, 1 Infernal Tutor, and 3 Ponder, for instance. IDK if anyone else feels the same way, but I think EtW warrants a maindeck slot if there is no Abrupt Decay. historically, EtW was a big hit for this deck just because it was a way to go off before Counterbalance, and though Terminus changes that paradigm, if our hate cards for that deck can gimp Terminus just as much as Counterbalance (Needle hitting Top hinders both, and once you have Goblins your Pyroblasts can pivot to hitting cantrips) I don't see why you'd want to abandon a path to victory against a very hostile matchup.

Regarding the sidedeck Bryant posted, one thing I might suggest for the MTGO meta is changing the Massacre for something else, as Burn/Elves are way more prevalent than DnT (haven't seen DnT in over a month) and we already have Chains for that. Pyroclasm could be good if you like aggressively killing stuff, Tormod's Crypt/Extraction could be good (you may want to make room for a 2nd copy) to patch up Reanimator matchups (don't know if this is a good plan) or just beat up on Dredge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Higgs

I like the 3c list, it's converging into the TNT lists of old more and more (especially now that you've gotten rid of the 5c lands). I had brought it up some weeks ago and got somewhat flamed but I still think there's merit in going the all duals&fetches route with the manabase and basically just becoming a faster version of ANT with the added flexibility of BW.

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Your suggestion, if my memory serves, was to run 12 lands, 4 colors and all fetch/duals which is a striking difference if you are unable to find more lands to produce the needed Black and Red mana after you fetched for your Tropical. :/

Overall, pretty similar to my Young Pyromancer list back then

Posted a littl report of the locals I played today with tes ending 5-0

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...040#post834040



Enjoy!

If there's something in Khans I want to test in the sideboard (maybe it'll be Treasure Cruise), I'm starting to think I'll be testing it in the place of Past in Flames. I can't remember the last time I cast it. With Infernal Tutor in the board and the ubiquity of Deathrite Shaman, lines that involve a tutor or a Wish in the graveyard have been pretty rare for me lately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Higgs

I like the 3c list, it's converging into the TNT lists of old more and more (especially now that you've gotten rid of the 5c lands). I had brought it up some weeks ago and got somewhat flamed but I still think there's merit in going the all duals&fetches route with the manabase and basically just becoming a faster version of ANT with the added flexibility of BW.

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hi. I am curious... Is this tnt deck the fetch tendrils? Or is it the ddft?

could you link me it s current thread or a current decklist, for sampling purposes?

thx a lot

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seilaquem

hi. I am curious... Is this tnt deck the fetch tendrils? Or is it the ddft?

could you link me it s current thread or a current decklist, for sampling purposes?

thx a lot

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I don't have a decklist, but TNT is more or less an ANT deck that runs Burning Wish. It's the Ad Nauseam Tendrils you know, but with Burning Wish.

That's pretty much it. Not many people play it anymore because those who wanted the Burning Wish advantages realized TES is the better deck exploiting them, and those who didn't want the ''risks'' or ''inconstancies'' that it brought went back to plain ANT.

As we are already dragging stuff from Facebook to the thread, here is what I'm trying out atm:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Void Snare
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Duress
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames

My basic boarding plan against Miracles involves to remove Moxen and the EtW first (for a balance of flipped-cmc and IMS) and board in the Decays as they are rarely dead and even able to deal with the hidden counterspells if aimed at SDT at eot. Needles and Pyros are blarding on demand in place of the Ponders. I'm testing the full fetch/dual with 13 and 14 lands total in either the 3rd Mox' place or by replacing EtW(!). More to come

I went in a 4rounder legacy awhile ago and with the list that has. 4 gems, 7 discards main.
And pyroblast, decays and xantid in my sb.
My MUs were
Burn 2-1
Reanimator 1-2
BW deadguy 2-0
Doomsday 2-0

Reanimator had that white annex ala daze thing. He was able to reanimate it on time thus i lose.