If you just want a creature that trades for Goyf and any Eldrazi, then you probably want this one.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/po2/126.jpg
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If you just want a creature that trades for Goyf and any Eldrazi, then you probably want this one.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/po2/126.jpg
Again, congratulations, good job. The build was a great choice in such a Lands-heavy tournament. There were greedy mana-bases all over the place and Miracles and Grixis were probably the only top seed deck not quite weak to Magus.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
As for your assessment, I do of course respectfully disagree.
T1 Chalice is bad for everyone. We can't Vial or StP, regardless of build. If we kept a 1-lander or the wrong creatures, it is pretty bad. Is it worse for WW than Imperial?
Imperial in this situation...
You can't cast Magus before turn 3, which means they have a very high chance of getting to take it from your hand with Turn 2 or Turn 3 Thought-Knot Seer. If you have to tutor for it, that means turn 4. So they often will get a mana curve of 2-4-6 or even 2-4-6-8 against you, at which point they likely don't care about your Magus. Even if Magus is annoying, every build I have seen runs 2 or more Dismember main and some run up to 4 total main and side plus Ratchet bomb, and as slow as Imperial is, that can get to 3, allowing them to vomit 3 turns of accumulated hate. Magus of the Moon is by no stretch a lock-out win, whether they land T1 Chalice or not, unless they had a bad or at least quite slow keep (and this is in fact one of their weaknesses, that they have no deck manipulation.)
WW on the other hand...
Firstly, I didn't say you could race with Serra Avenger by itself: Having 8 flyers is the big advantage in racing. Further, I emphasized Flickerwisp, not Avenger. Having 4 of them is a big difference over 2. It is more important to be able to Flickerwisp 1) Chalice, 2) Endless One, 3) their mana on an end step, 4) attacking creatures, 5) creatures being targeted with removal. Now, I can't do the last three without vial, but I still have twice as many ways to neutralize a resolved T1 Chalice as you do and if I do, I then have more left over to do those other things. 8 flyers also make equipment unequivocally better.
As a last note, most of them run 4 Wasteland, not 1. Of the two of builds, Imperial is far softer to Wasteland.
So no, it isn't "crazy talk" at all. It is a judicious assessment of the match based on key differences in our tool set. It could be wrong, but 20+ games in against Eldrazi, I don't think so.
@Finn/nevilshute
We shall see.
The 8 flyers are all just as slow if you don't have a Vial. Serra Avengers don't come out til turn 4 and Flickerwisp loses a lot of its value when it's hard-cast turn 3. In both cases I don't see how hard-casting 3 power creatures on turn 3 and 4 can race with a 4/4 on turn 2 and a 5/5 haste on turn 3.
If they have Chalice into TKS on the play, they've attacked you with a 4/4 twice before you've attacked once with your 3/1 flyer. This math just doesn't add up. If you keep a hand full of Flyers and a Vial, and they have the Chalice, you've lost against any decent Eldrazi hand.
Anyway, if you don't think maindecking Blood Moon is strong against this deck, I don't know what to tell you. I have won every game where I've resolved Magus of the Moon.
The deck is frustrating to play against because even when you have 'the right answer', if they have a god hand of TKS, TKS you won't be using it. You need to do something fast, but if your answer cards are exactly one mana, you sometimes can't cast them. There is no *reliable* trump card here, one that punishes them for running a million Sol Lands before they actually get to use them at least a few times. I predict at some point in the future Chalice will get a ban, there's already precedent for it in Vintage.
I think combo decks will either go super fast or SnT. In SnT case, D&T is fine. Super fast combo, on the other hand, need more things like mindbreak trap than taxing effects. In general however, i think those decks will just die too. Super fast combo fold to FoW and T1 thorn/chalice when they're on the draw.
In which case, i think D&T could skew away a bit from anti-combo cards, and play some more cards that control the board. Wingmare and Canonist lose a bit of efficiency, whereas Flickerwisps , Mangara etc... gain a bit of it. Dismember is a good card that can work as Swords 5-6 that isn't effected by Chalice. Leonin Relic-guarder is an option that could go in the maindeck again that provide general utility (exile moxens and the new :r: enchantment vs lands) and is great vs chalices. Ghostly prison is a sb option but probably a bit too slow. Paths get blocked by chalices but are amazing vs the fast starts of the deck (which usually don't involve chalices or thorns). Intrepid hero is a 3 mana creature that kill an eldrazi at every untap, but at 1/1 it get warping wailed easily.
I've tested the Eldrazi deck extensively and i think Eldrazi is slightly unfavored vs D&T. Eldrazi can have some explosive starts, but if they don't, wastelands, ports, strong removal etc... make the game favored every time Eldrazis can't get mimic->TKS->TKS or shit like that. The sideboard options for eldrazis Vs D&T also aren't great and generally slow, while i think D&T can bring in more relevant cards.
Eldrazi lists have a lot of seemingly great MUs that are pretty bad. Delver lists for example if they go first they can easily ride a single delver to victory and counter everything you play with dazes while timewalking you with wastelands. Grixis lists are especially annoying (though not specially unfavorable), while RUG are better but still not greatly favored. The deck lose or win big, like all stompy lists, but you tend remember only the times where you got T1 Chalice'd.
Three points:
1. Not answering Eldrazi until turn 3 isn't good for either build. (I think we agree)
2. Chalice on 1 with us on the draw is bad for either build. (I think we agree)
3. You introduced the "T1 Chalice" situation, in which you think Imperial is significantly better, because without that assumption, WW is able to race if it can utilize BOTH Serra Avenger AND (ESPECIALLY) Flickerwisp, which then has it's full range of disruption against Eldrazi.
I think you do overestimate Magus, in the greater scheme of things. Magus is a solid card against Eldrazi, but not back-breaking because it does not stop them from casting Mimic, Endless One, Mox Diamond and Dismember, nor does it slow them until turn 3/4.
However, I saw your post after I wrote this and I completely agree with you on this:
"The deck is frustrating to play against because even when you have 'the right answer', if they have a god hand of TKS, TKS you won't be using it. You need to do something fast, but if your answer cards are exactly one mana, you sometimes can't cast them. There is no *reliable* trump card here, one that punishes them for running a million Sol Lands before they actually get to use them at least a few times."
I only played against Eldrazi three times, and Jitte on a flyer was a superstar. Most good answers do seem to be three drops, from Flickerwisp to Mangara or even Fiend Hunter. Also, depending on their draws, my opponent beat himself pretty hard with Ancient tombs.
As for the storm match up, I might try boarding in some dryad militants. Might be relevant against lands or miracles as well.
What exactly do you think they will be casting with those Mox Diamonds?Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
Even if the aggro flyers plan were a better strategy for beating Eldrazi, you could switch my list to something like -3 Wingmare -1 Recruiter -1 Revoker/Mangara +2 Flickerwisp, +3 Serra Avenger and suddenly Imperial has aggro flyers *and* Blood Moons. I was playing 4 Flickerwisp until fairly recently, in fact.
Anyway, there is no world in which not playing Blood Moon is gonna be better than playing Blood Moon vs this deck and it's kinda absurdist to pretend otherwise. There are decks where that is not the case, here are some: Burn, Miracles, U/R Delver, Merfolk. You can argue against my specific build in the current meta, but arguing that Magus is only 'okay' is ridiculous. As I said, literally every time I have resolved it I have won, and I have played a fairly large set of matches vs Eldrazi by now.
Probably all you need is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
-3 Wingmare, +1 Mirran Crusader, +2 Flickerwisp, maybe -1 Recruiter, +1 Magus.
I would not recommend a 3/x-heavy build for RW, unless you do in fact put less emphasis on Recruiter and more on Magus. You would have to tell me how that works out for you.
Okay, last point because I can't help myself, and then I am done:
I absolutely never said "not playing Blood Moon is gonna be better than playing Blood Moon" nor would I because we weren't comparing a bad RW build to a good RW build. WW literally can't play Magus, so it's an illogical statement. My point is that, despite not having Magus, and for particular reasons I pointed out (which was a combination of (much better) flying creatures, more Flickerwisp, resilient mana base), I think WW is slightly better in the match.
The truth is, a lot of people don't want to test this build because Imperial Recruiter is very expensive. That is fine - sensible people probably shouldn't be spending $700 on 3 small pieces of cardboard. D+T is also a deck that a lot of people are playing specifically because it is legacy-cheap.
But honestly, even ignoring Recruiter and tossing a Plateau, some fetches and 2-3 Magus of the Moons into your deck immediately ups your expected win percentage vs Eldrazi. You have the deck's normal win percentage plus a certain % of wins on the spot. I think an otherwise WW deck could fit Magus in the SB at very low cost to its consistency. Not zero cost, but it is nevertheless a net gain. If people aren't testing this as an option, it's purely out of stubbornness / some spiritual dedication to the purity D+T rather than aiming to actually maximize their own win %s.
"The truth is..." :really:
Also, this is where I would tend towards in a an Eldrazi and Lands meta, with a lot of second-hand BUG X. Not sure it does well versus Grixis Delver, however, but you can't have everything.
Creatures (26)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mangara of Corondor
Lands (23)
2 Arid Mesa
3 Flooded Strand
3 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Plateau
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
Spells (11)
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
3 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sudden Demise
2 Containment Priest
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Path to Exile
1 Warping Wail
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
Incidentally, I played a *very* large set of games vs my friend on Grixis Delver with a very similar list. Not joking, probably played like 100 games against him. (He bought Imperial Taxes afterwards because he saw I was having more fun than he was.)
Anyway, I was overwhelmingly favored before sideboard, my Caverns made a lot of his opening FoW/Daze type hands unplayable. If he made his sideboard hateful enough (e.g. something like Dread, Null Rod, Ancient Grudge, Needle, Darkblast) he could turn it into him being a bit favored post-board. So if they have enough of those haymakers their board, I think the matchup ends up being 50-50, if they don't it's favored.
Can I quote this? I guess I just did.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Financial cost should never be a reason to dismiss a card in Legacy. And it's hard to dismiss variations of builds without personally playtesting it. That's the issue I have with some other boards like Salvation -- too much decision-making based on financial cost.
Please, let's stay objective. (And make friends who can lend recruiters for testing.)
As you said, Painter and Lands both stand to gain a lot from this. Decks that just get wrecked by chalice/thorn such as ANT and Elves are presumably going down, which is good for us. I also suspect that some people playing aggressive delver decks will move to more midrangy options such as Shardless Bug which are better equipped to deal with Eldrazi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
As for the sideboard discussion, I think that Council's Judgement and Leonin Relic Warder are a must right now (TNN is another pretty good card against Eldrazi). I have tried going up to 3 RIPs multiple times but I always end up cutting it: while it's something you love in multiples against Lands, siding all 3 in fair matchups like BUG or Loam has too often left me in a passive role while I get Delvered or Lilianaed to dust. I have gone back to Wilt Leaf Liege since Liliana, Hymn, and -1-1 effects require a more proactive/muscular approach in my experience. Cheating it in when plowing a reality smasher is just icing on the cake.
I'm confused. Who is this addressed to? No one here dismissed the cards because of cost. iatee speculated some unspecified people might do that, but many people here (including myself) were early adopters and testers of Imperial. I still consider it my backup variant of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Plague Sliver
@iatee re:Grixis
That makes a lot of sense and my experience is the same. I ran into Grixis running a lot more DnT hate back when I ran it, but the builds in Philadelphia ran very little of it.
@everyone
I think Painter isn't that good, despite seeming like it might be. They need to keep Painter alive (harder than it looks since it dies to Warping Wail as well as Dismember, which are combined 5-6 in the main of most builds and 6-8 post-board) and hit Grindstone on curve, without getting Revokered. None of the Eldrazi people here are too worried about Painter.
Lands is much worse, and I think a lot of their sideboard development is oriented towards it and maybe Grixis Delver.
I think that it was never explicitly said, but there's certainly an impact that the price has. I tested it briefly before giving it up because I knew I'd never get imperials and never want to play a suboptimal list. The statement is likely more towards the issue that less people talk about or acknowledge imperial taxes because they know they can never afford it or play it. I think this is the difference between the source and salvation though. Source is more focused on card choices, and strategies, while salvation can sometimes delve a little too deep into budgeting and more casual ideas. Nothing wrong with that of course but that's my best understanding of what he meantQuote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
It wasn't addressed to anyone here specifically. Sorry if it came across that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by redtwister
It was a rant directed against the Salvation boards, and why I have a hard time taking 80% of the content there seriously. When every other post is "what's a good substitute for Karakas..."
Staying on topic, I actually like the green splash a great deal. Played against it, seemed strong with the Carpet of Flowers / SoWap synergy.
---
And on a different note, I wrote about my experiences playing Magic in China, and how I picked up D&T for the first time here:
http://writtenbyjames.com/2016/03/02...pt-4-on-china/
Yeah, pretty much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marungo
Funny thing is - I don't see why this build wouldn't have been highly competitive years ago too (exception made for Treasure Cruise era, where it would be pretty awful) and I think it's just been 'waiting to be discovered' mostly due to the high cost of Recruiters. If they reprint it in EMA (decent chance that happens) hopefully more people will be willing to test this competitively.
Until then I'm not gonna fault anyone for not wanting to spend serious money on a few pieces of cardboard w/ '1/1' written at the bottom. D+T is a deck some people pick specifically *because* they don't want to spend too much money on a legacy deck and this build is actually more expensive than some T1 blue decks. I will however roll my eyes when they say Magus isn't that good against Eldrazi.
"Magus is a solid card against Eldrazi, but not back-breaking" = "isn't that good against Eldrazi."? Really? That's like confusing "I like M&M's, but they aren't my favorite candy" with "M&M's aren't very good."
As I said "The deck is frustrating to play against because even when you have 'the right answer', if they have a god hand of TKS, TKS you won't be using it. You need to do something fast, but if your answer cards are exactly one mana, you sometimes can't cast them. There is no *reliable* trump card here, one that punishes them for running a million Sol Lands before they actually get to use them at least a few times."
Holy cow, wait, that was you! And yes, I find having my statements distorted extremely annoying. This is a DnT Community forum, not the U.S. presidential debates; we ought to have standards.
Amazingly, the DnT deck that made it to 18th seems like a very... questionable... build.
Creatures 25
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Containment Priest
2 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Mangara of Corondor
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Lands 24
8 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Karakas
Spells 11
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Judge's Familiar
1 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Cataclysm
2 Council's Judgment
Odd Creature Choices:
Containment Priest and Spirit of the Labyrinth, but only 2 Flickerwisp in WW??
Odd Lands Choices:
4 Karakas with only 1 Mangara?
Eiganjo Castle? That's some time travel stuff.
Odd sideboard choices:
Serenity?? In a format without Affinity? Dude really, really hates MUD. I wish I had it, but I play 2-3 MUD decks in the first 5 matches of every big tournament, so...
Judge's Familiar??? Like Eiganjo Castle, this is some throwback tech.
1 RiP in a format with a ton of ways to destroy it? Too courageous for me.
And still 18th place at a very tough tournament.
Well, you actually said "Magus is an okay card against Eldrazi, but not back-breaking" and edited the quote to "solid card" afterwards. I know this because I quoted your original post in my response.
Anyway, I think we can all agree that that D+T list is not optimal, but you don't always get punished for running slightly sub-optimal lists. Tournaments are pretty small sample sets overall.
If I were running mono-W I would definitely not be playing Horizon Canopy in the near future, and two is really pushing it. Having one in your opening hand vs Eldrazi and doing 3-4 damage to yourself can really make a difference. You're less likely to be punished for tossing in a Castle, even over the course of 45 games, though the card really isn't very good, even in Modern.
Horizon Canopy isn't good in modern?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
We gotta get this guy out of the internet. He doesnt know what hes talking about.
The true mistake is pretending as though modern is a real format. It's a common error by those who give it a glance and never delve in.
Modern is a real format, I have delved into it, and have greatly enjoyed it up until the Eldrazi started dominating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marungo
Reread my sentence, I was referring to Eiganjo Castle.Quote:
Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat
SCG Legacy Classic Report:
My Decklist:
10 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Cavern of Souls
(23)
4 Ęther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
(7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
(4)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
2 Vryn Wingmare
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Mirran Crusader
(26)
Sideboard:
2 Cataclysm
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Council's Judgement
1 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
1 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Warping Wail
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Mirran Crusader
(15)
So, this was my first reasonably sized tournament with D&T (and my first big legacy event). I'd been playing D&T seriously for about 5 months between proxy games and cockatrice beforehand, and I'd been lurking on this thread.
Round 1: 2-0 vs Reanimator
G1 he fumbles around looking for gas while I establish a Mom and a Revoker on Vryn's Prodigy. I eventually suit up the Revoker with Sword before he finally lands an Elesh. I untap, play the Karakas I'd been saving, and swing lethal.
G2 I go Mom into Thalia and he reanimates an Inkwell. I keep drawing into lands and we go back and forth swinging out and passing. He swings until I'm one leviathan attack from lethal and passes. Luckily, he's on 4 and I'd drawn warping wail and cast it on scion mode which would up my power on board to 4. He tanks, then realizes that forcing it also just leaves him dead, and scoops.
Round 2: 1-2 vs Infect
G1 I keep my seven with two wastes, a plains, Thalia, Vial, mom, and IIRC Flickerwisp. He mulls to 5 and probes my hand before sighing and playing an inkmoth. I waste it and pass. The next four turns consist of me drawing another waste and wasting the next two inkmoths he plays. He fails to find another land and Thalia and Revoker eventually beat him to death.
G2 I keep a hand with Path and StP, but he counters both, and I die to a giant glistener elf
G3 Is close, but he is able to get out 4 hierarchs before getting them revoked. This would've been great, but the 4 exalted triggers on his blighted agent made short work of me.
Round 3: 0-2 vs Elves
I don't quite remember everything about these games, but I got stomped as is typical against elves.
Round 4: 2-0 vs ANT
G1 Mom->Thalia->Wingmare is able to effectively shut off his cantrips before I waste his only two lands and finish him off.
G2 I keep 6 with Grafdigger's, Canonist, and Revoker. He can't answer them, and I get there with Canonist and Revoker beats.
Round 5: 0-2 vs Elves
G1 I get Hoof'd for lethal after playing a mom and Revoker on Heritage Druid.
G2 He NO'd for progenitus, but was unable to beat a T3 crusader swinging past it.
G3 NO'd Progenitus kills me after I fail to draw any answers.
Round 6: 1-2 vs Esper Mentor (splashing green for DRS)
G1 Possibly the best match I've ever played with D&T. After 30 minutes of back and forth and just barely answering Goyfs, a mentor, and a Jace I'm able to vial in a crusader, untap and arm it with with Batterskull for lethal.
G2 I draw 7 straight lands and die to seemingly infinite monk tokens
G3 Goes similarly after he answers all my threats and drops a mentor. I also punted this one by wasting wasting incorrectly, but such is life.
Round 7: 2-0 VS MUD
G1 Spirit takes care of Portal while Flickerwisp carries a Jitte to victory
G2 I get him to 7 with Serra Avenger and Flickerwisp while revoking his Metalworker. He plays Forgemaster and passes. I drop another Revoker on Forgemaster and he concedes
All in all, I went 3-4, but I had a great time and got to see some interesting lines of play I hadn't before. I really need to practice the infect matchup as well as the one for miracles (though I didn't see it in the event), as they seem very grindy, but very winnable.
Since then, I've replaced the Wingmares with another crusader and a fourth Flickerwisp, as Wingmare always felt way too slow. I've also thought about running Sword of W&P in the SB, but I'm still not sold on it. I've also contemplated running a Dismember somewhere as extra advantage against Gurmag and Eldrazi, but again, I'm still not certain.
I apologize in advance for any typos or errors-- I just finished exams and I'm half dead. Also, thanks for all the advice you've all posted!
You are my hero. Good Ol' '98 tech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQuXalg4PKsQuote:
Originally Posted by iatee
Why Fireslinger over Goblin Sharpshooter?Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
I understand Sharpshooter costs one more, but it's repeatable and doesn't hurt you in the process.
Cos Human and costing 1 less is pretty relevant against the decks you want that effect against (infect, elves, mirror etc). I'll be playing Fireslinger in my sideboard for the Legacy side events at GP Melbourne this weekend. I'm sad to let my beloved Sharpshooter go but I think it's the right call at the moment. Inb4 I get blown out by Pyromancer and Monks :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinTurkey
There's a few reasons:
1. 2 drop. Vs. Infect and Elves, getting a pinger in play one turn earlier can be very relevant since you have so few turns.
2. I'm playing 3 Cavern of Souls and Fireslinger is a human. So it's easier to have mana for it with my manabase, and when you draw well you have it uncounterable T2 vs Infect, which is gonna be game over vs anything but their fastest starts.
3. Sharpshooter can't kill anything with an active Mother of Runes in play - which is one of the very reasons you want a pinger. Infect also just needs to hold up one protection spell.
4. There's no cool promo Sharpshooter
Overall, Sharpshooter is a little better vs Elves, Fireslinger is a *lot* better vs Infect and they're maybe about even vs D+T (killing Mom early vs. wiping a clogged board with no Moms). But Fireslinger is a *lot* better with my particular manabase, and I want to be able to blindly name Cavern on human and then never have to worry about red mana again.
I agree that Fireslinger is better than Sharpshooter, but, what about Sparkmage? it has the same time line as Fireslinger.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
1. Against Elves/Infect, keeping Vial on 2 is important since all of your key pieces for them are 2s.
2. Sometimes you may have a great Vial hand but not a 3rd land drop (or might need to use a Wasteland).
3. No promo Cunning Sparkmage.
4. Life loss doesn't matter vs. Infect, which is the matchup this improves the most. The life loss is a little relevant vs D+T, but you're the one with a pinger on board so you're probably doing alright. Sparkmage is probably better overall vs D+T for the surprise factor out of a Vial mid-combat.
Overall I would guess that the cards end up being fairly equivalent and the lifeloss mostly doesn't matter but once in a while does, and the extra mana mostly doesn't matter but once in a while does.
Well I believe this debate settled :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
https://www.chaoscards.co.uk/images/...874_medium.jpg
Now that the raw power of this card has been unleashed, I fully expect the promo to spike to $100, highly suggest everyone buy in now.
Damn i remember playing Fireslinger in my ponza lists back in what... 1999? Avalanche Riders and Fireslingers, Kindle, so good.
Hi, everyone! I've been lurking here for a little while because I just bought into Death and Taxes in Legacy. I played a few smaller tournaments outside my town and loved the deck and did quite well considering it was my first time playing legacy! I also love playing on cockatrice. However, to my horror, I discovered the only LGS that hosts legacy regularly near me, the meta consists of... get ready for this... 3 Elves, 2 TES, and 1 Burn. The burn isn't the worst thing in the world, and I usually enjoy that matchup but Elves and TES are just gross. Occasionally Painter, Miracles, and Sneak and Show pop up, but I have exclusively played against Elves and TES the last three weeks...
Bearing in mind that I do not have the means to build any other legacy deck, and also that I just really love D and T and want to get practice with it, how would you build D and T as optimally as possible for this meta?
If it helps I do have the stuff for Imperial Taxes, if you believe that would be the optimal build!
Thanks, everyone!
LOL 4 mb Ethersworn Canonist to start.
That's a naturally rough meta for D+T, but you can build the deck to be favored.
Imperial Taxes is a lot better vs Elves when you want it to be, since you can play one sided 2 mana boardwipes in the SB. How you build kinda just depends on how much you want to stack your maindeck and whether you're gonna create some local arms race if you do.
Things you want:
- 4 Ethersworn in the 75. If you have been playing these decks 100% of the time, you want 1+ main, since it's fantastic against all of them.
- 4 Sudden Demise in the SB. Conveniently helps you beat the TES T1 Goblin plan, which is one of the better ways to beat us. Most likely you go beyond 4 pyroclasm effects, since you really want to hit them g2/g3 vs Elves.
- 2 Containment Priest in the 75. Toss one in the main and you can fetch it with Recruiter g1.
Here's what I would try:
26 Creatures:
4 Thalia
4 SfM
4 Mom
3 Mirran Crusader (Good clock vs TES/Burn and untouchable vs Elves)
2 Wingmare (Good vs TES/Burn)
3 Recruiter (Stack Tax effects vs Storm, SfM, Priest or Canonist vs Elves, sideboarded Kor Firewalker vs Burn)
3 Ethersworn Canonist (Great against all those decks, so why not go crazy)
1 Magus of the Moon (TES has Mana rocks/basic Swamp, only good if Elves gets greedy, terrible vs Burn - but having one in the 75 can be useful)
1 Containment Priest
1 Aven Mindcensor (Good vs Storm/Elves, not a great card in general)
0 Flickerwisp seems crazy, but it's not an essential card against any of these decks and pretty bad when you don't have Vial.
Normal non-creature spells:
4 Vial
4 StP
Jitte/Bskull/Sofi
Manabase:
You can build it in 3 ways
- Prioritizing having t2 Red vs Elves (and TES)
- Giving yourself the maximum chance to bounce Thalia / play around Massacre vs TES
- Ensuring you can't get PoP'd for a million vs Burn
"Genuinely don't care about burn, just want to beat Elves" build. Take out Magus:
4 Wasteland
4 Port
4 Plateau
2 Karakas
9 Fetch
"I really hate Massacre":
4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Karakas
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Plateau
1 Plains
6 Fetch
"I though this was a white deck":
4 Wasteland
4 Port
2 Karakas
5 Plains
1 Plateau
7 Fetch
SB could be something like:
4 Sudden Demise
2 Electrickery
1 Containment Priest
1 Warping Wail (Better if you're going with Caverns main.)
4 Kor Firewalker (Might as well hedge vs that Burn deck)
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
This build is pretty bad against fair creature decks and the SB is especially warped. But it's gonna win a lot in your meta. Another option that would be decent in your meta is a Dead Guy Ale build with Thoughtseize effects, Zealous Persecution, Bob, sb Orzhov Pontiff. Honestly, because you have very little there to punish you for a second (or even third) color, not splashing something means you're showing up with a weaker deck for no real reason.
Two 5-0s for Imperial online this week:
Bahra running his traditional list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/383340#online
nmks running the same 60 I played at the Open, with a slightly tweaked SB: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/384053#online
Is nmks a source poster? I would like to hear how the SB worked for him.
I am glad someone else is trying the 3 Caverns. While all Imperial builds are favored vs a stock Miracles list, with this build I am genuinely excited when I see an opponent go Island, Top. This build puts this deck into the same territory as Goblins or Merfolk for them. My tournament record vs my friend who is a strong Miracles player: 9-3-2.
Wow! Thank you so much for your thorough thoughts! I would be interested in looking at a build of deadguy ale! What is a list that you like?Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
This list with some tweaks would be a good starting point:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11391&d=264668&f=LE