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Arsenal hit the nail on the head, concerning the major problem with Stoneforge: it beats FAIR decks. We have minimal tools that are truly effective against unfair decks (mulliganing to a double discard hand seems bad, and is often not enough). And even the fair decks are realizing what a beating Stoneforge is, so they're SBing more for it.
Congratulations, Matt!!
@Mirrislegend:
I tried Stoneforge on junk for about a month or so. I didn't like it (had to take too many cards away for the sfm package) but I think that was mostly due to my style of play. Stoneforge is a great card nevertheless, and batterskull+ jitte is far too good.
i agree dropping goyfs against merfolk causing them to cease fire and also dropping big KOTR, one of the card i'm thinking of along side e-plague was dueling grounds great synergy w/ our maze of ith. and yes i realized naming human against mavericks works well :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
E Plague hitting Maverick, via naming Humans, gives that card a lot of viability that it wouldn't have without it hurting Mav. Might be really worth considerationQuote:
Originally Posted by ryn ball_2
thank you Thorondor, hmmm i'm fine w/ surgical and deed, it is between thalia and canonist i know it hinders a little bit when we cast discards but atleast it buys us time due to the fact opponent struggles to additional :1: to their noncreature spells, maybe i will considered thalia since i side in also thalia against rug where an ideal situation i have thalia w/ choke in my field :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorondor
i think i'm fine w/ deeds along side jitte in my main, looking back to the matches i posted i was raped in game 3 due to wastelanded black source w/c i have a deed in hand :)
congrats matt! :)
E. Plague seems really great, but if we name it to humans, we lose bob... Of course, they lose much more...I'll try it next wednesday. I was going to ask your oppinions on a few changes, but i'm posting via phone, so I'll have to do that later... =/ anyways, rock decks ftw!!
Maverick is a very tricky deck to play against. Stoneforge isn't reliable because of their pridemages and stoneforges. Without that lifegain, Confidant becomes shaky. However, he also has the potential to crush them via card advantage that they cannot match. Deciding whether EPlague is correct in the Maverick MU is a very personal and very deck dependant decisionQuote:
Originally Posted by Sughayyer
So I have been playing 2 maindeck stoneforge and they have been great especially against decks like elves/goblins. They give you a way to find jitte which is huge and once you get that online its GG.
Tbh, I think we've well established that Stoneforge is the way to go, if you feel a need to really ensure a great MU vs balls-to-the-wall aggro decks, tribal decks, and other fair decks. I think the discussion really needs to turn to the unfair decks. Everyone, please share: what are you doing, MD and SB, against the unfair decks, how did you come to make those card choices, and how is it working out?
I'll start:
I run 4x 1cmc discard and 4x hymn MD. I also play 1 Qasali Pridemage and 1 Ooze as targets for GSZ. My Stoneforge package allows me to BSkull against Tendrils decks. SB: I have 2x Teeg for classic combo decks. I run 4x Surgical Extraction against most combo, and it splash hates Reanimator nicely.
I've been happy with Hymn against most decks, but I feel like it doesn't pull it's weight vs the new generation of unfair decks (Sneak and Show and Reanimator). Teeg is likewise awesome against many decks, but not against Gristlebrand decks. I've become so frustrated with those decks that I now run 3x Diabolic Edict in the SB. My SB is very tight, not sure what else I could put in or where I could put it.
Right, Stoneforge + equipment > fair decks. This has been well established. However, we have to ask ourselves if we beat the fair decks even without Stoneforge and if we do, then shouldn't we use those 4-6 slots to improve the unfair matchups?
As I said, jitte and batter are great, but we don't need them against fair decks. I'm happy with hymn, but I was considering using 6 point discards, to make run for 2 gsz (and with them, all the package - qasali, dryad, teeg, etc). Since my sideboard is 1 extirpate, 1 surgical, 1 thrunn, 1 elspeth and a couple tutors for plague, deed, spellbomb, etc, I'm thinking about replacing thrun with choke. When + get back home I'll post my list and my ideas for change
I don't think we have settled on SFM being good in junk, roughly half of the players are playing it and the others are playing goyf in its stead. It is too slow against fast decks and is easily removed/disrupted by those same decks. In a pipe dream it is a ace in the hole but that never happens.
Congrats on the finish Matt! Top 64 is really awesome and I'm sorry you didn't do better... Which match do you feel like you should have won? You got 0-2'ed by RUG, infect and Goblins... all of which are by bad beats/god hands it sounds like...
So turning to unfair deck hymn im not sure is the way to good. I have not had much success with it and with the increasing sneak show decks it dosent do all that much. Point discard i think may be the way to go with added in the side. So far here is my list comments are welcome.
4 STP
4 BOb
4 KotR
2 Green sun
1 tarmogoyf
1 qasali
1 teeg ( miracle control is big now and recks us)
1 ooze
3 inquisition
2 thought seize
3 pulse
2 stoneforge
1 batterskull
1 jitte
1 library
2 top
3 mox diamond
24 land
I feel like a want thalia in the main but have no room for it unless im cutting something. Plus if you play thalia you almost want Mom in there to protect it as well.
This hits the nail on the head. Does the non Stoneforge version consistently beat Burn, Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, Maverick, Zoo, Bant, RUG, etc? I thought we could all agree that the answer is no, or at the very least, not compared to the thoroughness with which Stoneforge beats fair decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
That having been said, non Stoneforge versions are far superior against the unfair decks, due to significantly greater pressure and due to a variety of options in the MD.
Given that fair decks are the greatest population of the format, I think Stoneforge MD is the way to go, and that's why I think discussion of handling unfair-deck MUs is more relevant than discussing fair-deck MUs (like recent discussion of EPlague)
All of these decks have answers to a turn two stoneforge and have been built around killing a 1/2 squire or making him useless through the use of maindeck artifact removal. Except for elves and merfolk, turn 2 stoneforge will go un responded and is a huge tempo sink if they have the answer for it. We do not have free counter magic to stay interactive with our opponent while they drop their hand that we can hopefully answer on turn 3-4 with an active jitte/batterskull. Maverick has been cutting the stoneforge because just playing more jittes is a better plan overall for the gw aggro monstrosity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
If you use tarmogoyf in your sentences they almost make more sense in that the goyf is hard to remove and greatly slows fair decks down. Matt lost to matches in which he had little to no sideboard action or sideboarded poorly.
Against RUG he should have kept the removal instead of the chokes, against infect he had nothing fast enough that he couldn't beat with his maindeck and against goblins, everything he sided in was effectively useless and tempo negative. Against gobbos you have to get on the board quick and force them into blocking situations, Garruck, confidant and top would have all been fine in game 2 to ensure you had blockers/drew more dudes to block or attack discard should have came out for the persecutions and/or the reinforcements.
Even if you are going to run SFM you would need to run 4 goyfs to help clog the ground while your equipment gets active, we don't run the mana accelerants of maverick or the counter magic of stoneblade. Maverick even runs Gaea's Cradle to help with equipment.
Tarmogoyf clogs the ground, but he rarely wins the game. Stoneforge provides utility, threats, answers, defenses, and win cons.
And anyone with an answer to Stoneforge has an answer to Goyf, so that's not really a great argument
This is an excellent point, a point that distresses me about my current build. However, since I've found SFM to win more often than Goyf, I'm just gonna use SFM to beat the fair decks, then focus on the unfair decks rather than on GoyfQuote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
OK so what about a list that is better geared toward the unfair matchups and still has a solid fair matchup, matchup lol.
i reall like thalia and it holds off other creature decks with first strike while posing a threat to any unfair matchups
4 KotR
3 Mom
3 Thalia
2 stoneforge
4 Bob
1 Ooze
1 goyf
1 batterskull
1 jitte
4 STP
1 pulse
1 zealous persecution
2 thoughtseize
3 inquisition
1 duress
3 mox diamond
2 green sun
24 land
Live cards against goyf: swords to plowshares, path to exile, countermagic, relic.
Live cards against SFM: swords to plowshares, path to exile, countermagic, lightning bolt, forked bolt, quasali pridemage, stifle, phyrexian revoker, ancient grudge, duress, thoughtsieze, clique and whatever else affects creatures/cards in hand/triggered abilities.
Being rediculously huge for no commitment provides offense, defense, utility and even makes the player better looking to the opposite sex.
Matt, I know you wanted better but you gave a strong finish and ended $50 richer from it. Congratulations.
How did you like the maindeck tracker? I know I said put it in the side so I wanted to see what you thought of it.
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Against unfair decks I play Liliana, Teeg, Thalia, and 5 (4+board) pieces of hand disruption.
4 Thoughtseize - I play because it's unrestricted discard. 2 life is a fine cost to pay to allow the possibility of winning.
1 Duress - Over Inquisition as most of what we'd be pulling are spells. Also, Things are starting to go up in cost so getting over 3cc has become important.
1 Teeg - As things have started to go up in cost, Teeg becomes more effective.
2 Thalia - This format is still about optimizing the land;spell cost ratio. Thalia changes that ratio.
2 Liliana of the Veil - Limit's hand sized while providing an answer to the issue that present themselves.
if combo decks remain either creature based or limited spell based, I would switch back to Ethersworn Canonist. Stopping the creature based combo's, I feel, would be the better choice than slowing the others.